Macross On Hd?

[Culverin]

well, with people starting to move into High Definition TV's... (aka my parents )

and my finding out that a DVD is not high definition at all.

i'm wondering since they redigitized/cleanedup/made pretty the series and DYRL if they are going to be eventually offered in high defininition? can you guys shed some light on the posibility of this?

they can do that right? it's not like Star Wars where Lucas supposedly recorded over the originals? so they can give it to us still? but prettier in a couple years?

[azrael]

Chances of HD Macross.....ask this question again when HD players come down in price. At the $500-800, even I don't need that much clarity.

[Zinjo]

well, with people starting to move into High Definition TV's... (aka my parents  )

and my finding out that a DVD is not high definition at all.

i'm wondering since they redigitized/cleanedup/made pretty the series and DYRL if they are going to be eventually offered in high defininition?  can you guys shed some light on the posibility of this?

they can do that right?  it's not like Star Wars where Lucas supposedly recorded over the originals?  so they can give it to us still?  but prettier in a couple years?

407245[/snapback]

Well Animeigo digitally restored SDF Macross that ADV is currently using for it's dub, but not to any HD standards.

Macross: DYRL wasn't really so much digitally restored as much as given the Animorphic Widescreen treatment , cleaned up and had it's audio re-mastered (I think, not completely sure about the audio). Unless someone spends the money to settle all the licensing issues related to DYRL, it is doubtful we'll even see a non-bootleg version hit North America, nevermind in HD.

The other titles wont' be remastered in HD here unless they are done in Japan first. NA distributors are only licensers of the shows and don't generally spend tons of money cleaning up the show as they are still niche market suppliers and they have to make money, so to spend a ton of money on a title that may not give a good return on your investment is not likely.

Now you have to remember that the Japanese have been using HD technology since 1980! So it's hard to say if or when they'd transfer any anime titles over to HD since the technology is still fairly new and no standard format has been agreed to yet.

Only time will tell with respect to HD versions of our favorite anime shows.

[JsARCLIGHT]

A good true HD encoding would require a very high quality, high resolution original film print of the source materials, which most likely does not exsist for many of the Macross properties. DYRL might be the easiest to encode if they still have the original master film reels. If they would actually do it would be another question.

[eugimon]

meh, I would rather see that time and effort put into a new macross series or OVA than further revisiting SDF Macross... the animego treatment looks and sounds just fine.

[bandit29]

It could probably be done but I don't think there would be any real benefit in HD. I'd rather see money/time spent on new Macross projects

Edited June 12, 2006 by dejr8bud

[JB0]

A good true HD encoding would require a very high quality, high resolution original film print of the source materials, which most likely does not exsist for many of the Macross properties. DYRL might be the easiest to encode if they still have the original master film reels. If they would actually do it would be another question.

407271[/snapback]

Odds are actually pretty good that the original series would look WORSE with a new high-def master.

Animeigo mentioned that when they were through restoring and cleaning up the masters they had access to they had to go back and artificially crap it up again, because it looked worse after they removed the film grain. The Animeigo master is progressive scan, which is really all the original series would benefit from.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a BluRay/HD-DVD DYRL release in the future, maybe MacPlus and Zero too.

But not SDF.

[MjrMisaHayase]

A good true HD encoding would require a very high quality, high resolution original film print of the source materials, which most likely does not exsist for many of the Macross properties. DYRL might be the easiest to encode if they still have the original master film reels. If they would actually do it would be another question.

407271[/snapback]

Odds are actually pretty good that the original series would look WORSE with a new high-def master.

Animeigo mentioned that when they were through restoring and cleaning up the masters they had access to they had to go back and artificially crap it up again, because it looked worse after they removed the film grain. The Animeigo master is progressive scan, which is really all the original series would benefit from.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a BluRay/HD-DVD DYRL release in the future, maybe MacPlus and Zero too.

But not SDF.

407300[/snapback]

Hmm... Let's hope that the BluRay/HD-DVD both successfully take off in Japan before we can see an HD release of DYRL.

[Vince]

I watched it with a up convert DVD player on my DLP, it was pretty good -- much better than regular DVD. Of cause it's no match with true HD, but it's 20 year old.

[MjrMisaHayase]

I watched it with a up convert DVD player on my DLP, it was pretty good -- much better than regular DVD. Of cause it's no match with true HD, but it's 20 year old.

407318[/snapback]

IIRC, DLP is a Texas Instruments technology. I've seen it advertised on awards shows such as the Oscars, Grammys and Emmys.

[JB0]

I watched it with a up convert DVD player on my DLP, it was pretty good -- much better than regular DVD. Of cause it's no match with true HD, but it's 20 year old.

407318[/snapback]

The only diffrence between watching regular DVD on an upsampling player and with "native" output on a fixed-resolution HDTV is which end has the better upsampling hardware.

Upsampling players aren't a magic bullet that makes things look better, just a compensation for the traditionally crappy resamplers in TVs.

I watched it with a up convert DVD player on my DLP, it was pretty good -- much better than regular DVD. Of cause it's no match with true HD, but it's 20 year old.

407318[/snapback]

IIRC, DLP is a Texas Instruments technology. I've seen it advertised on awards shows such as the Oscars, Grammys and Emmys.

407322[/snapback]

Yeah. Pretty neat tech, really.

[Nomake Wan]

I've seen a few HD titles, not Macross... Haruhi, .hack//ROOTS and Air, that I know of, have gotten the HD treatment. Air is a BluRay launch title, and the other two are aired as HDTV. Sweet.

I was gonna say that the original Macross isn't really HD... I mean, it doesn't seem like it'd benefit. I like the idea of Plus and Zero going HD, though... now there's some coolness.

[Vince]

Actually, the differrent between a regular DVD player and an up convert DVD player is the regular player convert the digital signal back to analog 480i signal, and the so-called up convert doesn't. result in cleaner picture through DVI or HDMI interface with digital signal.

I got my tv before HDMI was out, so I'm using DVI interface, the HDMI was supposed to be better and it also carries audio signal.

Most HD monitor have mulitple component input port, but the older model (like mine) have only 1 480i port -- 1 dvd player in with component input, that's why my PS2 is on S-video only. Anyways, the rest of the component input ports support up 1080i, HD signal from cable box, dish etc.

I'm just repeating what the guy at BestBuy told me, he seems to know what he was saying.

Nevertheless, it was pretty cool watching DYRL on big(ger) screen with all surround sound up though.

[Vince]

One more thing, did M-plus on the big screen. really cool, just wish it was wide screen.

[Keith]

Without re-animating it, the only way to make it widescreen would be to crop it, & screw that.

[JB0]

Actually, the differrent between a regular DVD player and an up convert DVD player is the regular player convert the digital signal back to analog 480i signal, and the so-called up convert doesn't. result in cleaner picture through DVI or HDMI interface with digital signal. 

A. Or 480p.

B. It's quite possible to make a player with digital out but NOT upsampling. In fact, such players exist, though they are not commonly marketed anymore.

The "so-called up convert" is actually an upsampling of the image. They take the 720*480 of a standard DVD and resize it to the 1280*720 or 1920*1080 that HDTVs natively display. It's an ACTUAL upconvert, not a "so-called" one.

As I said, the "advantage" is that the players typically use better resampling routines than the TVs.

Which is painfully backwards, since the TV has to deal with all non-native sources, and the DVD player only has to deal with one.

I got my tv before HDMI was out, so I'm using DVI interface, the HDMI was supposed to be better and it also carries audio signal.

Most HD monitor have mulitple component input port, but the older model (like mine) have only 1 480i port -- 1 dvd player in with component input, that's why my PS2 is on S-video only. Anyways, the rest of the component input ports support up 1080i, HD signal from cable box, dish etc.

Are you actually USING all your HD component ports?

A set of HD component inputs can take SD component signals just fine, so there's no reason to avoid using the HD component connectors on non-HD sources.

I'm just repeating what the guy at BestBuy told me, he seems to know what he was saying.

Sadly, the guys at Best Buy THINK they know what they're saying, but they don't ACTUALLY know a lot more than the customers they're offering "advice" to.

Nevertheless, it was pretty cool watching DYRL on big(ger) screen with all surround sound up though.

Prydef.

[Vince]

JBO you seems to know quite a bit about these thing, I don't worry about the details as go as these thing deliver.

Unsampleing signal or not, that up convert dvd player does produce much better picture with the same dvd.

No I'm not using all my hd component input ports, I have a hd cable box using one of them though. Neither the PS2, regular dvd, nor the component out from the up convert player work with the hd component ports, tried it.

My up convert player is probably one of those first one to use HDMI output, the previous model use DVI. Still the stupid HDMI cable cost more than the player.

Anyway, my setup works pretty good for me, I'm ok for a while.

Yeah, the tech guys in the store generally don't know much more than informed customer.

BTW. I read that SONY's blue-ray dvd player is shipping mid August for $1000, and the PS3 will have the same dvd player component for $400 less.

[TheLoneWolf]

True, but the PS3 won't have the coveted HDMI output. Videophiles with an HDMI set looking for the full experience will still need to shell out $1000 for the standalone BR player.

[eugimon]

no, the higher grade PS3 will have HDMI, only the bargain basement model will come without.

[MjrMisaHayase]

no, the higher grade PS3 will have HDMI, only the bargain basement model will come without.

407531[/snapback]

[eugimon]

no, the higher grade PS3 will have HDMI, only the bargain basement model will come without.

407531[/snapback]

407535[/snapback]

yeah, kinda surprising. There are supposed to be three different versions of the PS3 released. The cheapest version won't have wireless or bluetooth and some other stuff built in ( you can buy the add-on cards though ) but the biggie is that it will not have HDMI support and no plans to do so. You can still play games @ 1080i with component cables but the movies with copy protection will require HDMI to watch in 1080i.

[Vince]

I'm cheap, so I'm going to wait a little bit before I jump on board for PS3.

[Hurin]

For the record, I decided to forgo the thousand man-hours or so it was going to take to IVTC and re-master the Bandai/Emotion (official) DVD release of DYRL because I'd hate for them to release a (fixed) HD version about thirty minutes after I finished.

That, and my eyes started bleeding.

H

[JsARCLIGHT]

But you'd still be dealing with a low res 720 x 486 source with that route. For DYRL to have true HDDVD or Blu Ray 720p or 1080i encoding it would have to come from the master film reels or a much higher than broadcast res source.

And IMHO that is the failing of conversion of old anime to HD... most of the time a true, clean high res source is unavailable. Most old anime was laid off to cheap tape or low grade film back in the '80s and has since either been aged to death or transfered to NTSC digital masters and cleaned up (like the AnimEgo set). Sure someone could force a HD release out of those masters but it would not be true HD, unless someone had the foresight to encode the original film transfer in film resolution digitally it would simply be "upconverted 480".

With almost all modern movies and TV shows being shot or encoded digitally with HD in mind these days it's as easy as falling off a ladder in modern applications, but the inavailability of the original masters of these old shows massively puts a nail in the coffin of true HD quality releases. I sometimes wonder if the original masters of some old shows even exsist anymore.

[eugimon]

I would really question why you would want anime in HD anyways? The whole point to HD (IMO) is to have greater resolution and detail. Most animation simply doesn't have that much information to begin with and even the backgrounds are usually simple compared to live action backdrops.

I suppose if you're dealing with modern anime with CG characters/mecha than HD becomes more attractive since you can have animators load up on the models but that just makes them more expensive to animate and produce... and why put that much effort into it when the HD market is still very very small compared to the overall DVD market.

[JB0]

JBO you seems to know quite a bit about these thing, I don't worry about the details as go as these thing deliver.

Unsampleing signal or not, that up convert dvd player does produce much better picture with the same dvd.

Again, it's only because the TV does a lousy job upsampling.

Any non-CRT display requires resampling hardware inside it to convert all incoming images to the display's native resolution. But they cheap out and use the minimum needed to generate a picture instead of the more expensive hardware needed to generate a GOOD picture.

A TV with a good resampler inside it would deliver similar results. Possibly even better results.

A HD CRT would deliver optimum results, as it would run at the DVD's native resolution, avoiding the need to resample the image to start with, while still benefiting from the higher build quality needed to make it an HD display.

No I'm not using all my hd component input ports, I have a hd cable box using one of them though.  Neither the PS2, regular dvd, nor the component out from the up convert player work with the hd component ports, tried it.

Strange...

BTW. I read that SONY's blue-ray dvd player is shipping mid August for $1000, and the PS3 will have the same dvd player component for $400 less.

That's about right.

Though the 600$ PS3 is still way too expensive for a game machine.

Hell, the 500$ PS3 is too expensive, and it lacks HDMI output.

I would really question why you would want anime in HD anyways? The whole point to HD (IMO) is to have greater resolution and detail. Most animation simply doesn't have that much information to begin with and even the backgrounds are usually simple compared to live action backdrops.

Arguably, you'll get cleaner lines that way.

Conventional animation is drawn at "infinite" resolution, so...

I focused on DYRL and MacPlus because they were intended for theatrical viewing. There's generally a lot more detail on movies, because they wind up on a 200-foot perfectly-focused screen instead of a 20-50 inch poorly-focused TV.

... and why put that much effort into it when the HD market is still very very small compared to the overall DVD market.

I assumed this was a "once HD movie disks go mainstream" discussion.

Edited June 13, 2006 by JB0

[Hurin]

JsArclight,

I wasn't IVTC-ing and re-encoding in order to try to attain a pseudo-HD experience. Trust me, I know you can't get more real detail/pixels/resolution from a low resolution source.

I was remastering and IVTCing to remove the terrible interlacing artifacts and faulty 3:2 pull-down flagging that manifests itself on the Bandai/Emotion DVD when it is played back on a computer (as detailed in my review of the DVD here).

I stopped because I assume that if/when they do an HD transfer from film, they'll do it right and my work will be moot (and vastly surpassed by HD resolution).

At least, I think you were addressing my prior post. If not and I mis-interpreted, my apologies.

H

[JsARCLIGHT]

No, you are right. Fixing the interlace problems for playback on a digital source is something alltogether different and I would suspect would never be directly addressed by a releasing house. Something that like is quite niche and chaces are they'd encode full HDDVD or Blu Ray if they chose to which would fix those problems roundabout. I was speaking of people trying to glean more detail from exsisting low res materials, i.e. someone trying to "upconvert" exsisting low res masters into an HD relelase... which you CAN actually do. My editing system here at the office can pull a DVD, upconvert it to HD resolution, apply filters to correct the scale artifacts and run it off to our HD monitor in "true" full HD res. Now, while it is in "true" full HD res the quality is abysmal because it was upscaled from low res due to the lack of an actual high res master source. And in the end that is where this whole endeavor falls down, the availability of original high res master source material for all the old Macross items. Who has them, if they even still have them and how they actually go about encoding them into true HD are the core.

[Zinjo]

I wasn't IVTC-ing and re-encoding in order to try to attain a pseudo-HD experience.  Trust me, I know you can't get more real detail/pixels/resolution from a low resolution source.

I was remastering and IVTCing to remove the terrible interlacing artifacts and faulty 3:2 pull-down flagging that manifests itself on the Bandai/Emotion DVD when it is played back on a computer (as detailed in my review of the DVD here).

I stopped because I assume that if/when they do an HD transfer from film, they'll do it right and my work will be moot (and vastly surpassed by HD resolution).

At least, I think you were addressing my prior post.  If not and I mis-interpreted, my apologies. 

H

407597[/snapback]

Well according to sketchley, Macross is still popular, just not mainstream popular, so I suspect we won't be seeing a HD transfer of DYRL or Mac Plus for a few years at least, considering all the other anime movie titles that would get the treatment first.

So I suspect your HD efforts would be appreciated until then, even if it is to provide a psuedo HD experience for those of us with HD CRTs and screens.

[Vince]

[

yeah, kinda surprising. There are supposed to be three different versions of the PS3 released. The cheapest version won't have wireless or bluetooth and some other stuff built in ( you can buy the add-on cards though ) but the biggie is that it will not have HDMI support and no plans to do so. You can still play games @ 1080i with component cables but the movies with copy protection will require HDMI to watch in 1080i.

407537[/snapback]

there is no need for HDMI to watch HD signal, HD cable box use 1080i component output AND separate audio output, HDMI is all integrated. (I like big cables...)

Now for the HD cable box users out there, what kind of audio output you got?

Mine stupid cable only have the kind with RCA audio out, so all the 5.1, 6.1, and 7.1 mean nothing!! I got 1080i on all the HD channels (Discovery is all day long), really pretty, when I watch dvds I have to choice between better picture or better sound.

My stuffs are a couple years old, they probably have different things now.

[JB0]

there is no need for HDMI to watch HD signal, HD cable box use 1080i component output AND separate audio output, HDMI is all integrated. (I like big cables...)

Except for one major problem.

BluRay uses the HDCP copy-protection scheme. If HDCP is enabled, than analog outputs as well as digital outputs that aren't HDCP-enabled are restricted to... I think it's 512p.

Without HDMI, which includes HDCP in the spec, or the incredibly rare DVI+HDCP, there's no guarantee you'll be able to GET HD playback out of your HD media.

A second problem is that I don't think the dinky multi-out connector Sony's been using since the PS1 is capable of delivering high-bandwidth signals, and that's the connector the PS3 uses for analog output.

It'd be nice if I was wrong, though.

[Zinjo]

A second problem is that I don't think the dinky multi-out connector Sony's been using since the PS1 is capable of delivering high-bandwidth signals, and that's the connector the PS3 uses for analog output.

It'd be nice if I was wrong, though.

407628[/snapback]

Soooo, how do they plan to market this???

Sometimes specializing too much simply kills your market prospects and considering the average Joe won't even notice the difference anyway, they are taking a very large gamble that customers will fork out that kind of cash for a over the top console/DVD player...

Not to mention most who watch the DVD market and are following this saga, suspect that the HD format wars will ultimately only result in the niche market of serious Cinephiles with deep pockets, not the average consumer...

Time will tell.

Edited June 13, 2006 by Zinjo

[JB0]

A second problem is that I don't think the dinky multi-out connector Sony's been using since the PS1 is capable of delivering high-bandwidth signals, and that's the connector the PS3 uses for analog output.

It'd be nice if I was wrong, though.

407628[/snapback]

Soooo, how do they plan to market this???

By saying "ZOMG PLAYSTATION GIVE US MONIES!1111"

Sometimes specializing too much simply kills your market prospects and considering the average Joe won't even notice the difference anyway, they are taking a very large gamble that customers will fork out that kind of cash for a over the top console/DVD player...

Pretty much. They seem to be using the PS3 to force BluRay into homes, and they've priced themselves out of the market in the process.

Not to mention most who watch the DVD market and are following this saga,  suspect that the HD format wars will ultimately only result in the niche market of serious Cinephiles with deep pockets, not the average consumer...

That's what they said when DVDs first appeared too.

Wait a few years for prices to fall and HDTV to become more mainstream. THEN start making predictions.

[azrael]

I should probably note that Sony is no longer considering the PS3 as a console but as a computer.

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=9642

So factor this in with your comments about blu-ray and HD-DVD.

[Macross73]

PS3 = PC ?

If this is there strategy then why buy the initial release? PS3 upgrades every so often?

"The Sony CEO gave another example in the interview: "As PS3 is a computer... it also wants to evolve. We'll want to upgrade the HDD size very soon - if new standards appear on the PC, we will want to support them. We may want the [blu-ray] drive to [have a writable version upgrade]." He then tempered his comments: "Well, BD may not develop like that, though." But extensibility is what Sony is stressing that you get for the price of a PS3, nonetheless."

www.gamasutra.com