About The Zentradi Battleships...

[sketchley]

Without the human factor (people brought along with the technology,) I think it would have been lost on the Zentraedi - too little, too late.

This is, of course, based on the Factory Satellite episode where, after retrieving it, they comment on how it is partially broken down, non-functional and in need of serious repair.

[JB0]

Without the human factor (people brought along with the technology,) I think it would have been lost on the Zentraedi - too little, too late.

This is, of course, based on the Factory Satellite episode where, after retrieving it, they comment on how it is partially broken down, non-functional and in need of serious repair.

405704[/snapback]

Quite likely.

As we can see when they DO capture some humans, they approach everything from entirely the wrong angle to grasp it.

They seemed to think repairs were a magical ability we had(which is admittedly a lot less laughable than it seems, given some of the PC's later projects), or a more advanced version of their self-sealing hulls.

But if he HAD figured it out and brought it back...

I guess it's better to say I wonder what he expected to happen. There's all sorts of possibilities, partially because we know so little about the zentradi society.

[Beltane70]

Then what is the weapon being fired by the ship when they go to capture the factory satellite?

Britai's ship was firing multiple beam cannons from the front of the ship. When you see them in the shot where the camera is looking directly at the front of the ship you can clearly see that it's many beams being fired. When the camera angle switches to show a 3/4 view of Britai's ship firing its weapons, the multiple beams sort of look like one large beam weapon. It's just the viewing angle and the way it's animated that makes it seem like Britai's ship has a large-scale beam weapon.

[Nied]

Here's some good screencaps to illustrate the point. These external shots were intercut with scenes on the bridge of Vrlitwai's ship with everyone preparing to fire.

[KingNor]

I don 't think the zentradi think of things as far as personal advancement. Breetai was trying to capture the SDF because it was intresting, and there seemed to me at least that the Zentradi sort of have standing orders to investigate anything new.

I would suspect that their main focus was to figure out our weapons and repair abilitys so beter to defeat us, not reallyt o learn anything to help themselves.

I'd imagine that the Zentradi have very rigid attack protocols for dealing with paticular races/situations. Anything that doesn't fit those models gets the magnifying glass untill a defeat plan is figured out, then its back to KILL KILL KILL.

[Morpheus]

I would suppose so. Breetai's ship is larger and has more lesser (relative to main cannon on Macross) weapons than the SDF-1 does. Then again, the Macross has a barrier and Breetai's ship doesn't... though one could debate how long said barrier system would be effective for.

405597[/snapback]

How could you forget the Daedalus attack That would rip Breetai ship apart, assuming the SDF-1 is still intact when performing it.

In DYRL movie, Breetai ship did split to fire its main gun, but never seen it in the TV series.

[Nomake Wan]

I was assuming that Breetai wouldn't let the Macross get close enough to perform that move. ^-^;

[sketchley]

Actually they did. They let the SDF-1 punch the nose in one of the latter episodes, and had a bunch of Regults and Gluags waiting to storm the SDF-1 through the open Dedaelus front door. I believe that that was episode 22.

Thanks for clarifying the Factory Satellite attack. Though it doesn't really clarify things either way - as the justification for NOT using the main cannon is that they wanted to capture the satellite and destroy the defenders - not destroy both.

[Nied]

Actually they did.  They let the SDF-1 punch the nose in one of the latter episodes, and had a bunch of Regults and Gluags waiting to storm the SDF-1 through the open Dedaelus front door.  I believe that that was episode 22.

Thanks for clarifying the Factory Satellite attack.  Though it doesn't really clarify things either way - as the justification for NOT using the main cannon is that they wanted to capture the satellite and destroy the defenders - not destroy both.

405773[/snapback]

Yes but they were also vastly outnumbered by a fleet that included at least one Nupetiet Vergnitz. I doubt they'd need to worry much about hitting the FS in such a target rich environment.

[JB0]

Then what is the weapon being fired by the ship when they go to capture the factory satellite?

Britai's ship was firing multiple beam cannons from the front of the ship. When you see them in the shot where the camera is looking directly at the front of the ship you can clearly see that it's many beams being fired. When the camera angle switches to show a 3/4 view of Britai's ship firing its weapons, the multiple beams sort of look like one large beam weapon. It's just the viewing angle and the way it's animated that makes it seem like Britai's ship has a large-scale beam weapon.

405717[/snapback]

Ah.

Thanks.

I don 't think the zentradi think of things as far as personal advancement. 

The spies were rewarded with promotions, though. And they were pretty hyped about it.

Of course, Kamjin just liked blowing crap up, and Millia was seeking challenges to her skill. So clearly diffrent zentradi have diffrent motivations.

Breetai was trying to capture the SDF because it was intresting, and there seemed to me at least that the Zentradi sort of have standing orders to investigate anything new.

I would suspect that their main focus was to figure out our weapons and repair abilitys so beter to defeat us, not reallyt o learn anything to help themselves.

I thought they mentioned using it against the supervision army remnants, but I could be wrong again.

I'd imagine that the Zentradi have very rigid attack protocols for dealing with paticular races/situations.  Anything that doesn't fit those models gets the magnifying glass untill a defeat plan is figured out, then its back to KILL KILL KILL.

Bodol did mention that they learned what they could about miclones before exterminating them.

...

Or was that in DYRL?

Actually they did.  They let the SDF-1 punch the nose in one of the latter episodes, and had a bunch of Regults and Gluags waiting to storm the SDF-1 through the open Dedaelus front door.  I believe that that was episode 22.

That was a special case, though. If he didn't WANT to get hit by a Daedalus Attack, he wouldn't have come in range of one.

That episode also implies that Britai's ship can't withstand a Daedalus under "normal" circumstances(is ANY use of the Daedalus Attack really normal circumstances?), since he issues orders to reinforce the bow beforehand AND has the regults and glaugs blast all the destroids before they can unload the main salvo.

Of course, it's after the botched DA on Earth, so Britai has a good idea what a Daedalus Attack entails. Before that it would've been a rather bad idea, since there were no survivors or camera recordings, so it would've been a lot of guesswork to figure out how they did it(maybe the PPB disks explode inside the ship. Or Kaifun runs out and uses his magic powers to slay the giants inside!).

[sketchley]

Yes. The only thing those events really prove, is how terrible a battle tactic the Daedalus Attack is!

As a means to quickly dispatch your enemies: terrible!

As a means to invade and possibly capture your enemy's ship: possibly ok, if you could sneak in really close without getting spotted (and shot) first.

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

Yes.  The only thing those events really prove, is how terrible a battle tactic the Daedalus Attack is!

As a means to quickly dispatch your enemies: terrible!

As a means to invade and possibly capture your enemy's ship: possibly ok, if you could sneak in really close without getting spotted (and shot) first.

405950[/snapback]

Come to think of it, isn't it better to use the modified PPB attack instead of the standard Daedalus move? Just concentrate the PPB like in the last episode and ram straight thru the enemy instead of wasting Destroid ammo?

Of course, its still a tactically crap move compared to shooting the enemy from 20,000 miles away. For the Daedalus attack to work, both targets need to be practically stationary in zero range and thats pretty crazy for space combat. Matching vectors in zero-g is much harder then Star Trek makes it out to be.

Edited June 7, 2006 by Retracting Head Ter Ter

[JB0]

Yes.  The only thing those events really prove, is how terrible a battle tactic the Daedalus Attack is!

As a means to quickly dispatch your enemies: terrible!

As a means to invade and possibly capture your enemy's ship: possibly ok, if you could sneak in really close without getting spotted (and shot) first.

405950[/snapback]

Definitely. It was originally an act of desperation, and I was never sure why they kept it up.

I can understand the usage on Earth, since they didn't want to accidentally fry some of their fighters or any nearby civilians with the cannon(of course, they screwed it up and DID shoot down at least one fighter), but other than that...

Come to think of it, isn't it better to use the modified PPB attack instead of the standard Daedalus move? Just concentrate the PPB like in the last episode and ram straight thru the enemy instead of wasting Destroid ammo?

Well, most targets aren't large enough for that style of ram.

So you're back to a Daedalus attack, just pushing through instead of stopping and shooting.

...

Best argument for using the destroids is that they wanted to get clear of the enemy ship before it exploded. If you follow all the way through, you're at ground zero when it goes. If you unload some ammo and pull back, you're... still too close for comfort, but not right inside the explosion.

Of course, its still a tactically crap move compared to shooting the enemy from 20,000 miles away. For the Daedalus attack to work, both targets need to be practically stationary in zero range and thats pretty crazy for space combat. Matching vectors in zero-g is much harder then Star Trek makes it out to be.

Of course, the zentradi version of ship-to-ship tactics seemed to be "point straight at 'em and charge." So they were already on the right line disturbingly often, and only had to rotate to face them, which the Macross was very capable of.

If the missing fold generators and then barrier system hadn't interfered, they could've unloaded a cannon shot through almost every flying pickle they fought.

[KingNor]

(KingNor @ Jun 6 2006, 12:53 AM)

I don 't think the zentradi think of things as far as personal advancement. 

The spies were rewarded with promotions, though. And they were pretty hyped about it.

Of course, Kamjin just liked blowing crap up, and Millia was seeking challenges to her skill. So clearly diffrent zentradi have diffrent motivations

good point

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

The spies were rewarded with promotions, though. And they were pretty hyped about it.

Of course, Kamjin just liked blowing crap up, and Millia was seeking challenges to her skill. So clearly diffrent zentradi have diffrent motivations

And Laplamitz liked 'Culture'.

[Li Qin]

Of course, it's after the botched DA on Earth, so Britai has a good idea what a Daedalus Attack entails. Before that it would've been a rather bad idea, since there were no survivors or camera recordings, so it would've been a lot of guesswork to figure out how they did it(maybe the PPB disks explode inside the ship. Or Kaifun runs out and uses his magic powers to slay the giants inside!).

Actually it was becuase of the sipes that they knew how it worked and not the botched shot on Earth.

The best way I see for the SDF to destroy Britai's ship (without the main guns) is either to use long range "reaction" missiles or if it's possible, to close in with the odb and then switch to the ppb and use a Daedalus Attack.

Without the main guns at a long range fire fight I don't see the SDF winning unless it has "reaction" weaponary.

[JB0]

Of course, it's after the botched DA on Earth, so Britai has a good idea what a Daedalus Attack entails. Before that it would've been a rather bad idea, since there were no survivors or camera recordings, so it would've been a lot of guesswork to figure out how they did it(maybe the PPB disks explode inside the ship. Or Kaifun runs out and uses his magic powers to slay the giants inside!).

Actually it was becuase of the sipes that they knew how it worked and not the botched shot on Earth.

How would the spies know how the Daedalus Attack works?

They didn't have access to military facilities, and were hidden away in the shelters with the rest of the civilians during battles.

[Li Qin]

They did disco with the bridge bunnies. All I know is that Britai said that the spies said that they had data on the daedalus attack which allowed them to create the counter. Besides they were spies so them infultrating and finding military secrets wouldn't be that hard, and I don't think that the Macross had very good security as a lot of stuff that shouldn't have been know was, i.e. kaifun knowing about the odb going skitz and scorching the earth.

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

The best way I see for the SDF to destroy Britai's ship (without the main guns) is either to use long range "reaction" missiles or if it's possible, to close in with the odb and then switch to the ppb and use a Daedalus Attack.

407112[/snapback]

If its a pure 1 vs 1 only. The SDF can always use the barrier shield and approach to point blank range. Then sit a few klicks away and wait while the enemy continues its bombardment. Will work for 1 vs 2/3/4etc etc as long as the enemy bunches up together.

[JB0]

They did disco with the bridge bunnies. All I know is that Britai said that the spies said that they had data on the daedalus attack which allowed them to create the counter.

Did he? I've really got to watch that again sometime soon.

Besides they were spies so them infultrating and finding military secrets wouldn't be that hard,

Except they weren't GOOD spies, and didn't even grasp the seperation between civilian and military life.

Look at what they brought back. Refrigerators, CD players, electronic Minmay dolls, tales of very skimpy female uniforms/advanced weaponry(and subsequently got into a fistfight in front of a superior officer over which it actually was)... but not one piece of military hardware or info came out in the initial debriefing.

The only solid evidence they got anywhere NEAR an actual military facility is their escape regult, which was probably the same one Max, Misa, Kakizaki, and Hikaru escaped from the zentradi in, though that begs the question of how they were originally planning to return home.

If I had to bet, they PLANNED to steal a VF or 3, but couldn't get anywhere near the hangers due to civilian/military seperation, so they settled for a captured regult in a poorly-protected warehouse on the edge of the military base.

and I don't think that the Macross had very good security as a lot of stuff that shouldn't have been know was, i.e. kaifun knowing about the odb going skitz and scorching the earth.

I don't recall Kaifun knowing the barrier would fry anything.

As I recall, he was trying to destroy the Macross, figured the barrier would fail eventually and let him blast the ship, and nearly died when it exploded in an incredibly violent manner and decimated his entire assault force.

[nanashino]

FYI:

http://www.macrossmecha.info/nws/cgcbc/

The Nameless Advisor

www.macrossmecha.info

[Nied]

Interesting. What's that from?

::edit:: I'm a moron and didn't notice where you list where it's from on the page itself

Edited June 13, 2006 by Nied

[Li Qin]

Except they weren't GOOD spies, and didn't even grasp the seperation between civilian and military life.

Look at what they brought back. Refrigerators, CD players, electronic Minmay dolls, tales of very skimpy female uniforms/advanced weaponry(and subsequently got into a fistfight in front of a superior officer over which it actually was)... but not one piece of military hardware or info came out in the initial debriefing.

Well the punch up was from the first time they experenced a culture shock and when they only saw the miss macross show so that can't really be used as a good example. With the inital debreifing yes there was no military information, but that wasn't what the show wanted to focus on at the time, it was after the Zentradi experincing culture shocks and military data which we already knew about would have been a bit boring. As for how good they were as spies, well you can't really say that as they were experincing a completely alien culture that they had noidea of how it worked, or even how the dress sense was.

I don't recall Kaifun knowing the barrier would fry anything.

As I recall, he was trying to destroy the Macross, figured the barrier would fail eventually and let him blast the ship, and nearly died when it exploded in an incredibly violent manner and decimated his entire assault force.

Thats Kamjin, Kaifun was that annoying passafist that was trying to get with minmei.

If its a pure 1 vs 1 only. The SDF can always use the barrier shield and approach to point blank range. Then sit a few klicks away and wait while the enemy continues its bombardment. Will work for 1 vs 2/3/4etc etc as long as the enemy bunches up together.

Thats what I was getting at, the main problem with the tatic I suggested is changing the odb to the ppb being how long it would take and in that time what could britai's ship do.

FYI:

http://www.macrossmecha.info/nws/cgcbc/

The Nameless Advisor

www.macrossmecha.info

Also a LOT of those ships were used to clean the Earth in the Zentradi assult.

Edited June 13, 2006 by Li Qin

[JB0]

Except they weren't GOOD spies, and didn't even grasp the seperation between civilian and military life.

Look at what they brought back. Refrigerators, CD players, electronic Minmay dolls, tales of very skimpy female uniforms/advanced weaponry(and subsequently got into a fistfight in front of a superior officer over which it actually was)... but not one piece of military hardware or info came out in the initial debriefing.

Well the punch up was from the first time they experenced a culture shock and when they only saw the miss macross show so that can't really be used as a good example. With the inital debreifing yes there was no military information, but that wasn't what the show wanted to focus on at the time, it was after the Zentradi experincing culture shocks and military data which we already knew about would have been a bit boring.

They should have still introduced some evidence in the debriefing scene that the spies brought back important information, if they did.

As for how good they were as spies, well you can't really say that as they were experincing a completely alien culture that they had noidea of how it worked, or even how the dress sense was.

Failure to understand the society doesn't mitigate the fact that they screwed up badly.

I don't recall Kaifun knowing the barrier would fry anything.

As I recall, he was trying to destroy the Macross, figured the barrier would fail eventually and let him blast the ship, and nearly died when it exploded in an incredibly violent manner and decimated his entire assault force.

Thats Kamjin, Kaifun was that annoying passafist that was trying to get with minmei.

DOH! I always get those 2 mixed up! WHY?!?!?!

...

Show would've been a lot more interesting if something similar to Hikaru's nightmare in Phantasm had happened and Kaifun DID turn into a zentradi warrior.

[sketchley]

Did the two spies screw up?

They successfully infilitrated the ship. They successfully gathered information. They successfully escaped the ship, and returned to report.

Considering that the Zentraedi had no information whatsoever on human/micronian society, and they had no concept of a non-military class, let alone anything beyond that, there report was an invaluable success.

I think this is a case of people not stepping into the shoes of the spies, and only looking at the situation from their own personal situation. The pre-SWI Zentraedi do not, afterall, know anything about anything but their strict, heavily militarized life of fast combat, and even faster death.

In terms of this topic/thread - they brought back intelligence that could potentially be used to cause injury or distraction on their foe. It's true that they didn't use any of it until after the war - and even then, it was only Kamjin's taking Minmei as a hostage which could be loosely defined as using the intelligence in a useful manner.

[JB0]

Did the two spies screw up?

They successfully infilitrated the ship.  They successfully gathered information.  They successfully escaped the ship, and returned to report.

Considering that the Zentraedi had no information whatsoever on human/micronian society, and they had no concept of a non-military class, let alone anything beyond that, there report was an invaluable success.

I think this is a case of people not stepping into the shoes of the spies, and only looking at the situation from their own personal situation.  The pre-SWI Zentraedi do not, afterall, know anything about anything but their strict, heavily militarized life of fast combat, and even faster death.

In terms of this topic/thread - they brought back intelligence that could potentially be used to cause injury or distraction on their foe.  It's true that they didn't use any of it until after the war - and even then, it was only Kamjin's  taking Minmei as a hostage which could be loosely defined as using the intelligence in a useful manner.

407515[/snapback]

I admit that they were thrust into a situation they had no hope whatsoever of comprehending.

But they brought back very little of any military value to the zentradi. What they DID bring back ultimately provoked rioting and mutiny through Britai's fleet, forcing him to arrange a cease-fire with the humans.

So the group that benefitted from the spy mission was... the humans.

While it WAS due to the fact that their society left them completely unequiped to comprehend the situation, they STILL failed in the worst possible way. They caused the defection of a 1200-ship fleet to the human side of the war, along with a highly-respected commander. And the knowledge gained from the defectors was what enabled humanity to defeat Bodolza's fleet.

Their mission actually couldn't have been less of a failure if the Macross' crew had captured and imprisoned them, actively fed them bad information, and then contaminated them with a bioweapon before letting them "escape" to report back to their superiors.

As is...

Britai's fleet and Lap'Lamiz' fleet defect to the human side, increasing the size of our force by over 1200x.

Kamjin's fleet defects from the zentradi side(I'd say good riddance, but they seemed to like him).

An attack on Bodol's flagship, planned using knowledge gained from Britai and Exedol, destroys said flagship, resulting in the dissolution of the Bodol main fleet.

Or what's left of it after the grand cannon goes off, the human-zentradi alliance opens fire during a massive psych-warfare attack, and the flagship explodes. They lost nearly 2 million vessels in that battle.

A factory satellite is subsequently stolen, reducing the zentradi's already severely reduced capacity to replace lost equipment.

All because of 3 spies.

That's a pretty big screw-up.

Again, I understand they were thrust into a situation they were completely incapable of comprehending. But they STILL failed dismally by any reasonable standard.

[sketchley]

I wouldn't pin the defections and the destruction of the Bodol base as a result of the three spies.

Even without their mission, the Zentraedi would still have intercepted transmissions (TV) from Earth and become 'culturally polluted,' and thus, 'under Bodolza's guns.'

Looking at it from the in-series context of 'they learned about the inner workings of the enemy ship,' it was a success. Until that time, they didn't even know if the enemy had Inspection Army agents with them, nor exactly what the enemy consisted of.

EDIT: put some further thought into this. I do 100% agree with you, JBO, from the 'looking back is 20/20' perspective. I fully support that strategically, the spying mission contributed to what 'lost the war' for the Zentraedi. However, tactically, at that point in the timeline/story, it was a very successful mission.

Edited June 14, 2006 by sketchley

[JB0]

EDIT: put some further thought into this.  I do 100% agree with you, JBO, from the 'looking back is 20/20' perspective.  I fully support that strategically, the spying mission contributed to what 'lost the war' for the Zentraedi.  However, tactically, at that point in the timeline/story, it was a very successful mission.

407698[/snapback]

Fair enough.

I do tend to look a bit longer-term at things. Short-term, I guess they DID accomplish their goals, more or less.

[Mephistopheles]

In the episode, I believe twenty-seven, where Earth is bombarded it clearly shows ships splitting in half; I don't recall the ship type though.

[Nomake Wan]

Already checked. They're gunboats, not Nupetiez. So far, they're the only ship I know of which clearly has a particle cannon listed in its weaponry.