The Vf-19 & It's Pinpoint Barrier Shield

[Zinjo]

So if the Pinpoint Barrier was discovered as a result of the disappearance of the fold system on the SDF-1 and that the fold system was powered by the Super Dimension reactor(s), would it not be reasonable to assume that any fighter with a barrier shield would have a small Super Dimension Reactor aboard?

Now I may have missed the "official" explanation to this in the compendium, but it seems reasonable to me that the "shield" would require a SD reactor to function.

If this is indeed true, then by the 2040's Spacy was not very far off of being able to build a fighter capable of space folds without the assistance of a fold booster.

Anyone wish to chime in on this one?

[Graham]

It's been my belief for a while now, that the next generation of Variable Fighters after the VF-19 & VF-22 will have internal multi-use Fold Boosters.

Graham

[promethuem5]

Now if only we could /get/ a next generation of Variable Fighters.... there's no mention of it with the VF-5000, is there? Or is that even canon? I forget...

[Skippy438]

The 5000 is canon, but if I recall it's older than the 21/19, so therefore in the last generation and not the next.

[ChrisG]

Actually, I would think that scientists studied the pinpoint barrier and reverse-engineered it (like they did with Overtechnology) so that pinpoint barriers could be created as standard equipment, rather than an accidental byproduct like on the Macross.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I guess it will some day get to a point where the humans have mini SDF main guns like the afos. (ie gundam wing style beam rifles )

Eventually the fighter will be like on the DYRL macross arcade game where the gerwalk mode has a massive beam but only for a short time or something. heh

[sketchley]

There's nothing in the compendium describing the PPB. T.T

It is true that the PPB of the SDF-1 was powered by the reactors of the SDF-1. HOWEVER, the development of the PPB was more along the lines of 'we have this huge empty space inside of the ship with random releases of energy. Can we harvest this energy and put it to use somehow?'

So no, by the intent of the series, VFs would not have a super-dimensional reactor on them - just plain old thermonuclear reactors.

Given the size of the Shinnakasu Industry/OTEC FBF-1000A external fold booster, it is entirely likely that, as Graham said, the next generation (by the series, not design release dates) will most likely have one built in. The thing is like what, 90% capacitor and 10% actual motivator/engine?

As it's human scientists themselves who made the PPB (notice the complete lack of them on the Zentraedi ships? That's not a result of battle damage. Do the Varuta ships also not have them?) The '35 year' wait time from capital ship to VF sized PPB is only due to the process of micronization.

[sketchley]

Eventually the fighter will be like on the DYRL macross arcade game where the gerwalk mode has a massive beam but only for a short time or something. heh

405202[/snapback]

You mean the Armoured Gerwalk?

[Mr March]

The discovering and harnessing of the energy that made up the Pin Point Barrier (PPB) system was a result of the Fold System malfunctioning (most likely due to imperfect human understanding of the Fold drive). I'm not sure the Reaction engines of the SDF Macross have anything to do with this process, other than supplying power to a some kind of "field-system" (electro-magnetics perhaps) that would MANIPULATE the PPB energy into discs and move them around.

In other words, you just need power to operate the field, but your power source isn't the origin of the PPB energy (at least not as it's described in the series).

Based on that theory, if the humans figured out how to create PPB energy, they could do so anywhere (given the proper equipment). The PPB energy could then be used on any vehicle equipped with enough power to manipulate the PPB energy...say, a Variable Fighter equipped with Reaction Engines that produce an enormous amount of power.

As for internal fold drives, it's obvious that as seen in Macross Plus, overtechnology is continually being refined and even improved upon by the humans. As such, the technology is being miniturized over successive generations, to the point that a fold booster can now be equipped on a fighter-sized craft. It's not a leap at all to believe in the near future Variable fighters will not only have internal fold drives, but they will be reusable for multiple trips. It is also only a matter of time before Variable fighters are equipped with FULL barrier systems.

Edited June 4, 2006 by Mr March

[sketchley]

I have something against full barriers. It's along the lines of why I don't really enjoy Macross II: the heroes are all powerful without opponents that can truly cause them harm - thus battles are not that 'thrilling.'

Anyhow, back to the PPB discussion, I forgot to add that the PPB for the VFs that we know have them, are only available in gerwalk and battroid modes.

This probably has to do with less of the engine's 'power' being used for flight, and more of it being available for other purposes. (SWAG, AWAG/RA etc., works along a similar principle.)

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

You mean the Armoured Gerwalk?

If you've played the macross arcade game (vertically scrolling shoot em up) you'll know what I mean.

In it the gerwalk mode has this beam of death that fries anything in its path. The battroid uses mainly missiles swarms (in spirit of the gbp) and the fighter has a spread shot. All made up for the game.

Anyway I just thought that if it ever gets to a point where humans become so advanced I wouldn't be surprised if we could reverse engineer the stuff on the afos and miniturise it. (in macross zero the afos has the sdf1 style main cannon, and can fold as well as 'fly' with some kind of anti gravity that it generates by itself.

When they talk about 'organs' in the compendium I am assuming the master geneticists that the PC were, must have somehow been able to create organic technology that generates the energy the way you see the organic robot in evangelion. All the functions of a PC (like Sara being able to fly = anti-gravity, Sara being able to create the barrier with her mind = Full barrier, and the afos just folding with no fold booster and being semi-organic 'robot' in nature,......all stems from some kind of life force. That is: if a person can do this using thier own abilities like sara maybe the PC understood how it worked (it wasn't "magic" to them, but a kind of science) and were able to grow it, or manufacture it without machines. Making part machine/part living organisms that were virtually living aliens with thier own life.)

If the afos was an organic robot, (not an actual living organism) you could say the PC just copied what existed in nature and made an artificial version. (that there were creatures/animals/aliens that had anti gravity naturally, or that could lift objects with thier minds, or that could generate a field around thier body for defence) and then they reverse engineered the animals they studied and made mechanical versions of them. The evil series of soldier being more organic types. (With the alien theme being them genetically modifying organ parts of one thing to interface with another non-organic thing. Brain and nerves connected to the ship in DYRL for example)

If you think about the variable wing, it is similar to actual bird. You could say it was inspired by nature.

Now this links up with my theory that because exedol and britai at some point believed the legends of "super humans" in SDF:Macross when he and britai were watching kaifun's kung fu movie, that maybe if the zentradi were scared of the movie, then maybe, just maybe they had been told, heard or witnessed these super human types with powers that can allow them to generate that energy naturally somehow? (ie magic to us) that somewhere in thier memory is the record of an actual event locked away somewhere? (similar to how the zentradi and meltrandi in DYRL movie had a memory of an ancient song locked in thier brains and when it was sung it erased the mind conditioning their masters had purposely used to brainwash them into becoming warriors? The music is like a key to unlock that door that releases thier original personality, like a hypnotist clicking his fingers and the person awakening from sleep. The aliens 'forgot' the song they once knew even though it was locked away somewhere, but in fact it was locked away on purpose by design as a control measure.)

We see creatures (protodevlin) in macross 7 able to withstand the environment of space, not to mention shoot stuf from thier body and teleport at will as well as fold items and lift things with thier minds like magic. It is hinted that britai is partially able to withstand punches from a robot and that he is stronger than his inferiours. And Sara and Mao displays some of the magic ability in macross Zero.

So why not the next step of evolution (PC being the ones who helped evolve us from monkeys) be that of a god-human? One that can fly with anti gravity generated naturally, one that has mind powers to lift things using psycho kinetic ability, one that can create a barrier like sara in macross zero etc and actually support the ancient legends of the 'super human' that britai and exedol were so scared of when they saw that Kung Fu movie in SDF:Macross with the little guy beating up the giants and shooting energy from his fingers and poo?

I think if Sara was allowed to float down, lift rocks, and control machines using her brain alone, that there is something to this theory of the super man being real as opposed to myth in the macross universe. (as shown in the kung fu movie of the guy flying up into the air and beating the giant) And after Exedol and Britai saw this image instead of naturally dismissing this like any ordinary person would, that may have unlocked a memory of actual PC using powers like that for real. (as opposed to the aliens just being stupid which I admit is the more logical explanation since they probably don't know what entertainment is)

So instead of having giant soldiers with naturally-strong bodies they somehow were able to create "super men" with compact bodies that could channel energy say from some other dimension with thier mind or something. (teleport or fold as if it were a mere magick spell or effect the world around them like the guy in akira)

Edited June 4, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[JB0]

I have something against full barriers.  It's along the lines of why I don't really enjoy Macross II: the heroes are all powerful without opponents that can truly cause them harm - thus battles are not that 'thrilling.'

Fortunately, the ODB actually has severe limitations.

For one, it tends to blow up when abused, doing severe damage to both the area around the fold generator and everything near the barrier. A small fighter-based ODB would likely reach saturation level much faster than a ship-sized one, and in a Macross-style dogfight has the potential to do serious damage to your teammates as well as your own vessel. The PPB system appears far more stable, and overloads far less catastrophically.

And it's not really clear if the barrier is one-way(as typically seen in the likes of Star Trek), or if it blocks OUTGOING fire and objects as well as incoming. If it's the latter, it's useless for fighters, and can't be deployed on a large ship until all fighters are clear.

That's likely why ODBs aren't seen in later serieses.

The Macross 7 is supposed to have both PPB and ODB systems, but the ODB is never used even though it would seem to be beneficial at many points.

It's a good technical excuse for what boils down to making more exciting animation.

Anyhow, back to the PPB discussion, I forgot to add that the PPB for the VFs that we know have them, are only available in gerwalk and battroid modes.

Huh. I'd never noticed that restriction before.

Compendium only lists the GERWALK/battroid restriction on the YF21/VF22.

And I'm pretty sure Basara used PPB disks in fighter mode at least once on his VF-19.

Stupid Basara. It's all his fault.

This probably has to do with less of the engine's 'power' being used for flight, and more of it being available for other purposes.  (SWAG, AWAG/RA etc., works along a similar principle.)

The most engine power being consistently used for thrust SHOULD wind up on a GERWALK in a planetary situation.

Hovering isn't very efficient, and it can't count on aerodynamic effects to keep it up(I have my doubts that any GERWALK is seeing signifigant lift from the wings even while moving forward).

But either way, the least thrust winds up in battroid, for obvious reasons. Which is why that was the only mode a VF-0 could use SWAG in. And I'd bet that's only useable while it's grounded.

In space, the engine should be not-thrusting most of the time in all 3 modes, so there has to be a diffrent reason.

Edited June 4, 2006 by JB0

[Zentrandude]

It would be hard to reverse engineer the afos since it wasn't in the hands of the UN spacy for very long, so they won't be able to recreate any of its grav based systems and weapons. They recreated the anti-grav generators from the macross but its nothing like the one afos had.

[Skullsixx]

Eventually the fighter will be like on the DYRL macross arcade game where the gerwalk mode has a massive beam but only for a short time or something. heh

405202[/snapback]

You mean the Armoured Gerwalk?

405208[/snapback]

That looks like it could cause some serious damage... YEAH!!!

[Zinjo]

It's along the lines of why I don't really enjoy Macross II: the heroes are all powerful without opponents that can truly cause them harm - thus battles are not that 'thrilling.'

405237[/snapback]

HUH??!!

Last I checked humanity was getting it's ass kicked in Mac II because they consistently underestimated their opponents and over estimated their own abilities.

I don't think we watched the same show...

[Zinjo]

If the PPB didn't require the output of a SD reactor then why didn't they have one already? I got the impression that this energy had unusual properties not previously seen. Otherwise the fastest way to deal with the energy discharges would be to shut down the relays feeding it and move on.

If the PPB was not fed by the SD reactor then why could they not use the main cannon while using the PPB? Was not the main cannon powered by the SD reactor?

The ODB's (if I remember correctly) achilles heel was that it "absorbed" the energy weapons directed at it, thus it would discharge all the absorbed energy when it reached critical mass. Against non-energy based weaponry (projectiles) it would be fine.

The reason why the PPB on the fighters were only available in GERWALK and Battloid modes was because it was localized on the arm shields of the fighters. It didn't appear to be "moveable".

The AFOS and the EVIL series were "Bioweapons", that were grown, not necessarily built. The benefit of Bio weaponry is that they generate their own energy source, most likely throug Zero Point enerizing means. They were "Bio-Mecha", the PC's version of the Ghost X-1 from Macross Plus or the Destroids only substantially more powerful.

In the case of the EVIL series, that mecha became "possessed" by entities from another dimension, thus Mac 7's "space monsters" .

These Bio-mecha known as the PD are said to contain SD "organs" that allow them to power their weapons, their abilities and even fold small objects other than themselves.

Thus if an SD reactor has that much power output it is reasonable that it could indeed power a PPB as well as a fold system. We can assume this is the case aboard the Zentreadi ships, which also seem to appear to have been "grown" rather than built.

If Spacy was to employ an ODB on fighters would likely be for the purpose of blockade running. A means to give a fighter / squadron protection for a very limited time.

At the same time, a micro SD reactor may only give a fighter a limited jump range, because of the limited power output a small reactor might give.

[azrael]

If the PPB didn't require the output of a SD reactor then why didn't they have one already? I got the impression that this energy had unusual properties not previously seen.

Because that's what Macross came with.

The ODB's (if I remember correctly) achilles heel was that it "absorbed" the energy weapons directed at it, thus it would discharge all the absorbed energy when it reached critical mass. Against non-energy based weaponry (projectiles) it would be fine.

IIRC, PPBs block missiles as well. Missiles are projectiles. So an ODB, being a full-scale PPB, would block those as well.

The reason why the PPB on the fighters were only available in GERWALK and Battloid modes was because it was localized on the arm shields of the fighters. It didn't appear to be "moveable".

Basara has proven that wrong when he was hit by a swarm of missiles. His VF-19 was covered with PPBs. The generators are located on the arms but their ability at covering a fighter appears to be much greater than just the arm shields.

These Bio-mecha known as the PD are said to contain SD "organs" that allow them to power their weapons, their abilities and even fold small objects other than themselves.

The only Protodevlins who has show the capability to fold objects other than itself is Gepernich, Goram and Zomd. Goram and Zomd work in tandem so we do not have a clear picture of them working individually. Sivil and Gavil do not appear to be able to fold on their own so it appears to be a limitation to all of this.

[JB0]

If the PPB didn't require the output of a SD reactor then why didn't they have one already?  I got the impression that this energy had unusual properties not previously seen.  Otherwise the fastest way to deal with the energy discharges would be to shut down the relays feeding it and move on.

I was under the impression that the energy discharges WEREN'T coming from the dangling wires that used to hook to the fold generators, but were a byproduct of the fold generator's failure. Something like a tear in space. The animation, of course, didn't show the energy sparking from anything, just swirling around in midair.

The barrier systems used the ship-generated to manipulate THAT energy.

If the PPB was not fed by the SD reactor then why could they not use the main cannon while using the PPB?  Was not the main cannon powered by the SD reactor?

The Macross didn't HAVE an SD reactor, so presumably not. It had a "heat-pile system cluster", which can be extrapolated to be some variant of fusion technology since the Mars Base fusion plant was based on the Macross' power plant.

As for why the barrier interfered with the main cannon... that's a good question.

The fact that the crew of the Macross didn't anticipate the cannon's failure indicates it WASN'T just a matter of power. Especially since the barrier was in operation for some time before they popped up to fire, so they knew very well how much power it was drawing from the ship's systems, and what systems it was drawing from.

Something about the barrier technology interfered with the operation of the main cannon, and it wasn't an obvious thing. Beyond that, it's a big question mark.

The ODB's (if I remember correctly) achilles heel was that it "absorbed" the energy weapons directed at it, thus it would discharge all the absorbed energy when it reached critical mass.  Against non-energy based weaponry (projectiles) it would be fine.

That would imply that projectiles went through the shield unimpeded.

If the shield stops projectiles, it has to deal with their kinetic energy. If it stops projectiles, it stops missiles. And if a missile detonates against it, it has to deal with the explosion's energies.

To deal with energy, it has to absorb it or deflect it.

The shield does BOTH to "energy" weapons. I believe they may've mentioned what percentage was being absorbed at one point in the episode, but I don't recall.

Presumably it affects missiles as well, since A. it was viewed as a full defensive system and the zentradi used missiles, and B. it's described as an expansion of the PPB instead of a new technology, and missiles impact against the PPB and detonate.

A missile detonation should count as an energy weapon, albeit a poorly-focused one.

The zentradi didn't use bullets as far as I can tell, but missiles detonating against the shield implies that other projectiles can't pass through either. So it bounces off and retains it's full momenteum, or part of the energy is absorbed by the shield.

The reason why the PPB on the fighters were only available in GERWALK and Battloid modes was because it was localized on the arm shields of the fighters.  It didn't appear to be "moveable".

Pin-point barrier punch.

The disks were movable, they were just USUALLY positioned on the shields for simplicity. Easier for the pilot to track big metal shields on his mech's arms than a bunch of green disks that could be anywhere at any time. Particularly since even the YF-21* seems to lack a 360-degree field of view for many of it's sensors.

*Chosen as a sample point because it's the only VF where a pilot could reasonably be expected to keep track of all the available sensor information, as well as the only one where rapid and precise PPB disk relocation would be possible in combat. Not because I have an unhealthy love of the vehicle.

The AFOS and the EVIL series were "Bioweapons", that were grown, not necessarily built.  The benefit of Bio weaponry is that they generate their own energy source, most likely throug Zero Point enerizing means.

The EVIL series pulled energy from a parallel universe to supply their energy requirements. That was how the protodeviln got there in the first place.

They were "Bio-Mecha", the PC's version of the Ghost X-1 from Macross Plus or the Destroids only substantially more powerful. 

I don't really see the connection.

In the case of the EVIL series, that mecha became "possessed" by entities from another dimension, thus Mac 7's "space monsters" .

These Bio-mecha known as the PD are said to contain SD "organs" that allow them to power their weapons, their abilities and even fold small objects other than themselves.

The evil aliens from another dimension came THROUGH the energy organs, because those organs drew energy from their dimension.

And remember, the SD organs were signifigant because they were a massive boost over prior energy generation technologies.

Thus if an SD reactor has that much power output it is reasonable that it could indeed power a PPB as well as a fold system.  We can assume this is the case aboard the Zentreadi ships, which also seem to appear to have been "grown" rather than built.

The zentradi ships appear well-worn, but built. There's an awful lot of rivets and metal plates for an organic construction process.

[Mr March]

If the PPB didn't require the output of a SD reactor then why didn't they have one already?  I got the impression that this energy had unusual properties not previously seen.  Otherwise the fastest way to deal with the energy discharges would be to shut down the relays feeding it and move on.

If the PPB was not fed by the SD reactor then why could they not use the main cannon while using the PPB?  Was not the main cannon powered by the SD reactor?

*snip*

405465[/snapback]

The discovery of the PPB energy came about by accident, the result of the Fold system disappearing and leaving PPB energy in it's wake. I fail to see this direct connection you have with the PPB and OverTechnology Reaction engines. Since the Zentradi or any other race that uses OverTechnology lacks PPB on their craft, it's obvious that PPB was a human innovation of OverTechnology that again was largely stumbled upon by accident.

I think you should rewatch the series because you're missing some very important plot points. Originally, the first use of the PPB system caused some kind of interference with the firing of the Main Guns. Since this problem never came up after that one episode, we can assume the PPB system was refined and the interference was corrected so as not to be problematic for other ship systems like the main gun.

[JB0]

I think you should rewatch the series because you're missing some very important plot  points.  Originally, the first use of the PPB system caused some kind of interference with the firing of the Main Guns.  Since this problem never came up after that one episode, we can assume the PPB system was refined and the interference was corrected so as not to be problematic for other ship systems like the main gun.

405607[/snapback]

Actually, we NEVER see the SDF-1's main gun being used while the PPB is active.

We DO see continued use of the otherwise strategically unsound Daedalus attack, though.

[Zinjo]

I was under the impression that the energy discharges WEREN'T coming from the dangling wires that used to hook to the fold generators, but were a byproduct of the fold generator's failure. Something like a tear in space. The animation, of course, didn't show the energy sparking from anything, just swirling around in midair.

The barrier systems used the ship-generated to manipulate THAT energy

Ok I need that sentence completed to understand what you meant...

The Macross didn't HAVE an SD reactor, so presumably not. It had a "heat-pile system cluster", which can be extrapolated to be some variant of fusion technology since the Mars Base fusion plant was based on the Macross' power plant.

Then how did it "fold"? Why is it called the "Super Dimension Fortress"?

The ODB's (if I remember correctly) achilles heel was that it "absorbed" the energy weapons directed at it, thus it would discharge all the absorbed energy when it reached critical mass.  Against non-energy based weaponry (projectiles) it would be fine.

That would imply that projectiles went through the shield unimpeded.

Not at all. It absorbed directed energy weapons and clearly deflected kinetic or projectile weaponry.

If the shield stops projectiles, it has to deal with their kinetic energy. If it stops projectiles, it stops missiles. And if a missile detonates against it, it has to deal with the explosion's energies.

To deal with energy, it has to absorb it or deflect it.

The shield does BOTH to "energy" weapons. I believe they may've mentioned what percentage was being absorbed at one point in the episode, but I don't recall.

Presumably it affects missiles as well, since A. it was viewed as a full defensive system and the zentradi used missiles, and B. it's described as an expansion of the PPB instead of a new technology, and missiles impact against the PPB and detonate.

A missile detonation should count as an energy weapon, albeit a poorly-focused one.

The zentradi didn't use bullets as far as I can tell, but missiles detonating against the shield implies that other projectiles can't pass through either. So it bounces off and retains it's full momenteum, or part of the energy is absorbed by the shield.

There is not implication as I stated above. I suspect the ODB would absorb a portion of the explosive energy of missiles, but not as much as directed energy weapons or reaction warheads.

Pin-point barrier punch.

The disks were movable, they were just USUALLY positioned on the shields for simplicity. Easier for the pilot to track big metal shields on his mech's arms than a bunch of green disks that could be anywhere at any time. Particularly since even the YF-21* seems to lack a 360-degree field of view for many of it's sensors.

*Chosen as a sample point because it's the only VF where a pilot could reasonably be expected to keep track of all the available sensor information, as well as the only one where rapid and precise PPB disk relocation would be possible in combat. Not because I have an unhealthy love of the vehicle.

I'll concede that as I've only seen Mac 7 once.

However it can be argued that any fighter with a "rear" or co-pilot as in the case of the "B" & "D" type fighters, could have a PPB that is directed as opposed to focused on the shield area.

The EVIL series pulled energy from a parallel universe to supply their energy requirements. That was how the protodeviln got there in the first place.

That is what the SD organs were for as well as what powers the fold system.

The evil aliens from another dimension came THROUGH the energy organs, because those organs drew energy from their dimension.

And remember, the SD organs were signifigant because they were a massive boost over prior energy generation technologies.

405493[/snapback]

True, however if there wasn't the overload that released the extradimensional beings into our dimension to possess the EVIL mecha, the Bio-mecha that were powered by these organs would have been nothing more than an piloted or AI controlled AFOS craft.

One could argue that the AFOS was a successful use of the EVIL technology.

[JB0]

Ok I need that sentence completed to understand what you meant...  

Yeah, that IS worded pretty badly. Sorry.

The barrier systems used electrical power from the Macross' "heat-pile" generator to manipulate the energy left over from where the fold generators used to be to create the barrier.

Then how did it "fold"?  Why is it called the "Super Dimension Fortress"?

The fold generator presumably ran on electricity, which was used to A. alter spacetime around the vessel, or B. punch through to another dimension(AKA hyperspace). The fold effects would seem to imply the latter.

There's nothing to imply any sort of exotic energy is needed to operate the fold generators.

In-continuity, I'm not sure why it was dubbed the Super Dimension Fortress.

Maybe because it COULD fold, or maybe just because it was really huge(large dimensions).

Of course, out of continuity, it was intended to be Super Space Fortress, and was engrish'ed.

The ODB's (if I remember correctly) achilles heel was that it "absorbed" the energy weapons directed at it, thus it would discharge all the absorbed energy when it reached critical mass.  Against non-energy based weaponry (projectiles) it would be fine.

That would imply that projectiles went through the shield unimpeded.

Not at all. It absorbed directed energy weapons and clearly deflected kinetic or projectile weaponry.

I don't recall any deflected projectile weapons.

There is not implication as I stated above.  I suspect the ODB would absorb a portion of the explosive energy of missiles, but not as much as directed energy weapons or reaction warheads.

What makes a chemical explosion diffrent than a nuclear explosion or a directed energy attack, aside from scale? It should absorb the same portion of any given energy impact.

Or did you mean it would absorb the same portion of energy from a chemical blast, but since the yield is so much smaller it wouldn't be as signifigant?

I'll concede that as I've only seen Mac 7 once.

However it can be argued that any fighter with a "rear" or co-pilot as in the case of the "B" & "D" type fighters, could have a PPB that is directed as opposed to focused on the shield area.

That would make a lot of sense, actually.

The PPB punch was in the Macross Plus OVA, though.

The EVIL series pulled energy from a parallel universe to supply their energy requirements. That was how the protodeviln got there in the first place.

That is what the SD organs were for as well as what powers the fold system.

Powered everything. The fold system was one of many things under "energy requirements."

Like I said, they were interesting mainly as a massive boost in power over the existing "heat-pile" generators, as far as the protoculture were concerned.

From a human point of view, they're interesting as a feat of bioengineering that looks more like magic than science.

True, however if there wasn't the overload that released the extradimensional beings into our dimension to possess the EVIL mecha, the Bio-mecha that were powered by these organs would have been nothing more than an piloted or AI controlled AFOS craft.

One could argue that the AFOS was a successful use of the EVIL technology.

405636[/snapback]

Yup.

Was a strong implication there, IMO. The parallels were just too striking.

[sketchley]

Then how did it "fold"?  Why is it called the "Super Dimension Fortress"?

The fold generator presumably ran on electricity, which was used to A. alter spacetime around the vessel, or B. punch through to another dimension(AKA hyperspace). The fold effects would seem to imply the latter.

There's nothing to imply any sort of exotic energy is needed to operate the fold generators.

In-continuity, I'm not sure why it was dubbed the Super Dimension Fortress.

Maybe because it COULD fold, or maybe just because it was really huge(large dimensions).

Of course, out of continuity, it was intended to be Super Space Fortress, and was engrish'ed.

405660[/snapback]

http://macross.anime.net//story/encycloped...fold/index.html

I believe the intent is simply that the fortress can go to and travel via super dimension space, and not that there is anything super or extra-dimensional about the fortress (beyond that it can go someplace special.)

[sketchley]

HUH??!!

Last I checked humanity was getting it's ass kicked in Mac II because they consistently underestimated their opponents and over estimated their own abilities.

I don't think we watched the same show...

405454[/snapback]

That's humanity as a whole, and not the heroes in particular. Same show, but a different point of view on the story, I guess.

I guess I like stories about people who are up against things that truly challenge them, and in the end, force them to change and grow into something else (hopefully a better person.) (Ex: Luke Skywalker, Neo, Erin Brochavitch.) Macross II just doesn't do that for me.

[JB0]

Then how did it "fold"?  Why is it called the "Super Dimension Fortress"?

The fold generator presumably ran on electricity, which was used to A. alter spacetime around the vessel, or B. punch through to another dimension(AKA hyperspace). The fold effects would seem to imply the latter.

There's nothing to imply any sort of exotic energy is needed to operate the fold generators.

In-continuity, I'm not sure why it was dubbed the Super Dimension Fortress.

Maybe because it COULD fold, or maybe just because it was really huge(large dimensions).

Of course, out of continuity, it was intended to be Super Space Fortress, and was engrish'ed.

405660[/snapback]

http://macross.anime.net//story/encycloped...fold/index.html

I believe the intent is simply that the fortress can go to and travel via super dimension space, and not that there is anything super or extra-dimensional about the fortress (beyond that it can go someplace special.)

405667[/snapback]

Ah, so fold behavior IS defined. Thank you!

[Zinjo]

I guess I like stories about people who are up against things that truly challenge them, and in the end, force them to change and grow into something else (hopefully a better person.)  (Ex: Luke Skywalker, Neo, Erin Brochavitch.)  Macross II just doesn't do that for me.

405688[/snapback]

I still firmly maintain that since Macross II has a truncated story from it's shortened run, due to unsatisfactory TV ratings.

Had the full story been told as intended, we'd be in a better position to judge it's fitness in Macross Franchise.

The story was too disjointed at times, seemed rushed in other areas and several threads were simply left dangling in the wind, that really didn't do justice to the premise presented.

Considering the abilities of those who worked on the project I find it very hard to believe it was meant to only run 6 episodes.

Since they don't abruptly "cancel" series' in Japan, like here, it seems clear to me that the production team had very little time to wrap up the important story threads before the plug was pulled.

Hence I like to believe there would have been episodes where humanity had to face it's own arrogance and change in order to survive.

[Zinjo]

http://macross.anime.net//story/encycloped...fold/index.html

I believe the intent is simply that the fortress can go to and travel via super dimension space, and not that there is anything super or extra-dimensional about the fortress (beyond that it can go someplace special.)

405667[/snapback]

Ahh, I knew it was in there, just couldn't find it in time.

That is what I've read that the reason it was called "Super Dimension" is because it was capable of space folds, not it's size.

I believe the whole "size" thing was an RT explanation for the name SDF-1.

[azrael]

I still firmly maintain that since Macross II has a truncated story from it's shortened run, due to unsatisfactory TV ratings. 

405706[/snapback]

Macross II never made it to TV. It was an OAV from the start...It came during a time when lots of shows were done as OAVs.

[Zinjo]

I still firmly maintain that since Macross II has a truncated story from it's shortened run, due to unsatisfactory TV ratings. 

405706[/snapback]

Macross II never made it to TV. It was an OAV from the start...It came during a time when lots of shows were done as OAVs.

405714[/snapback]

Thanks, I kept getting mixed messages in that regard.

It still doesn't change my belief it was meant to be longer... Unfortunately the necessary "hook" wasn't there at the beginning either.

[sketchley]

I do agree that Macross II was probably intended to be longer and/or better (there is a noticeable drop in quality for the last OVA.)

Nevertheless, for what was produced and what it is... see my comments above.