Guld Goa Bowman

[Kurisama]

I was rewatching M.Plus the other day for the millionth time, and apart from Guld repenting at the end and possibly making the most kick-ass self sacrifice of all anime - it never really occured to me how tragic his story really was - bear with me now;

1- In the inquest about the 'accident' to do with the live ammo firing from the YF-19's gunpod - when Guld is being questioned, one of the UN.Spacey Captains or judges or whatever makes a comment to the tune of

'even tho he is a Zentradi, you still support him?'

(Which was Directed at Millard). At which Millard make some comment about 'his men' (implying that ALL -Human & Zentran) are equal.

So seems even in that day and age, the racism is still rife within the UN.Spacey forces. This has gotta suck tho, as a love child of the result of the 1st war, Guld has strived & worked hard to make it where he is today.

2- After all is said and done, when Guld goes to the spaceport to see Myung off, its so sad to see him practically spill his guts to Myung and tells her he loves her and wants to be with her forever, etc etc...

Only to be rejected - which thinking about it from Gulds side - really sucks ass (as we all know...) so by Guld saying and feeling this way - he had broken the mould that his Zentran ancestors had experienced (Culture, emotions, etc.) and essentially had done what everyone (Macross, DYRL) had strived for. He is an example of what the Humans WANTED from the Zentran - an integrated member of society and loving being.

So when Guld gets rejected, after following what must've been a natural progression of his feelings, it's no wonder he gets a little angry. Makes Isamu (as much as i love the guy) seem a little shallow and childish - more-so.

What i'm trying to say, is that Guld gets a pretty heavy deal throughout his life and up until the end, but of course makes up for it in a wicked way.

Am i rambling? Or do ya get what i mean?!?!?

[Penguin]

I see where you're coming from, Kurisama, but I don't know if I agree with "tragic".

Guld does redeem himself well at the end, and the offhand comments about his heritage definitely point to some ugliness still lurking about in post-Space War I culture (no doubt there are still many SWI survivors alive who remember only the Zentraedi devastation and pass on their anger to their children ).

However, I always thought that all 3 of the main characters were suffering heavily from the "never left high school" syndrome... still wallowing in their own post-adolescent angst, and thus not yet mature. Isamu, poster boy for immaturity, still in love with his planes to the exclusion of everything and everyone else. Myung hung up on lost childhood dreams, unable to move forward and take control of her life. And Guld, still hung up on Myung with what I see as having more in common with a high-school crush than mature love. He misinterprets his night with Myung after the fire as validation of her feelings (rather than seeing it for what it really was... an emotionally exhausted woman seeking a moment of peace), and follows her around like a lovesick puppy. All three of them have to grow up at the end, with Guld making the first and strongest leap, sacrificing all his future hopes and ambitions to save his friends (... or maybe it was jsut another adolescent romantic fantasy... "Once I die for her she'll realize how much I care and love me back"... but I prefer not to see it that way). I always saw his death as the catalyst that would make the other two realize how much they were wrapped up in themselves and start to grow up as well.

Or maybe I'm just reading too much into all this...

[Sumdumgai]

I think that Isamu and Myung would have got to gether, only to be torn apart after Isamu faces charges for stealing the YF-19. He doesn't get executed because of taking down Sharon Apple, but I don't think he'd get a pardon because that wasn't his original objective (it being to trash the Ghost X-9).

And even if Isamu doesnt get thrown into prison or whatever, I think Isamu is too stuck in his ways. He'll always put flying as priority numero uno.

Myung: you came to rescuse me Isamu?

Isamu: Nah, I came to trash an experimental ghost fighter with this variable fighter I stole. You're just a bonus.

Myung: Oh really...

*they crash and die after Myung beats Isamu unconscious*

[myk]

We are thinking too much into this, as these are one-dimensional, fictional characters with a predetermined life of behaviors.

For the sake of the discussion however, Guld is nothing more than a scoundrel, a villain, whose evil behavior manifested itself at an early stage in his life when he assaulted Myung and Isamu for no justifiable reason at all (what other people do together is their own business). Later, he sabotaged the '19 project which almost ended in a tradgedy, then he "accidentally" thought something while flying the '21 that resulted in Isamu's crash, and then he tried to murder Isamu on Earth when it's obviously implied that he was supposed to merely stop Isamu from ruining the armstice ceremony.

Guld's personal sacrifice was the LEAST that he could do for the people whose trust that he had betrayed over the years.

In regards to the idea that Guld or anyone else could be a result of their upbringing and thus explaining anti-social behavior? BS. As long as Guld or anyone else has the capacity to discern right and wrong they can always make a choice; Guld chose to be a punk and deserved to die...

Edited May 12, 2006 by myk

[Skullsixx]

I couldn't agree more Myk. Guld died for a reason. Besides, who in the hell would rather see Isamu die over Guld?

[David Hingtgen]

*I* agree with Kurisama completely.

[JB0]

I couldn't agree more Myk. Guld died for a reason. Besides, who in the hell would rather see Isamu die over Guld?

399079[/snapback]

Me.

[Sumdumgai]

I couldn't agree more Myk. Guld died for a reason. Besides, who in the hell would rather see Isamu die over Guld?

399079[/snapback]

Me.

399091[/snapback]

Me too.

Actually I'd like to see them both die.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I think Guld was fighting his 'love of fighting' side against his caring side which is why I could sympathise with him becuase there was that struggle from within to surpress his fighting instinct. In the end the zentradi were originally bred to fight. Like certain breeds of dogs you got to watch out for these aliens because they might enjoy or use these instincts and be used to solving things with violence.

That's how I see it. Yeah he did bad things but he was a good person for the majority of the time. Certainly no worse than the mad scientist who killed people just to bring his AI to life and let it rule over humanity by controlling all the defenses and hacking into drones. I don't see the aliens as being evil since they were trained and bred to behave a certain way so it is not so black and white. (there is good and bad on both sides - in the end the bad guy was human and trusted, and in SDF:Macross you had an alien equivalent with kamjin so there is villains in both camps)

If you note: it does show that he is genuinely shocked at what he did to myung in the flashback so it was almost as if he "wasn't himself" for a moment. Like a person who may be drunk or under the influence of some drug and not in control. He then repressed this memory and locked it away as a way to to deal with the trauma and deny that part of his memory for a long time. However you look at it, from how it was presented, we were supposd to sympathise with him rather than hate him. His death wasn't payment for anything, I just think it was him wanting to "protect" myung like the heroic knight he imagined himself to be. That sounds pretty unselfish and noble to me. To say he "deserves to die" is a bit heartless imo.

Edited May 18, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[KingNor]

I think the way guld went out is more of a cultrual thing though, story wise.

In japan, dieing for a missdeed to rectify it is sort of glorified i think (more in theory than practice these days probably) Guld actually DIEING i think means more in japan than it does in the US.

In japan i think dieing for atonement is the ultimate sacrafice.. where as here in the US i think dieing to say "sorry" is sometimes seen as a cop-out, or getting off easy.

It's a diffrence in our perception of saving face and honor.

It's romantisised in MacPlus obviously, you can't run around killing yourself just because you wronged your friends, so they set up the story to make him have to CHOOSE between killing himself to save them or giving up and no redeeming himself.

In Japanise culture they are more likely to think "he redeemed himself" i think the formal verbal appologie is seen as weak compaired to physical pennance.

Where as the US might think "He got off easy" because we have a tendancy to think that dealing with each others feelings is harder than punishing ourselves.

You always have to think about subtle diffrences in culture when disecting this stuff, I don't think in japan they'd feel sorry for guld at all. In fact in they might actually be impressed, maybe envyous of his bravery and such.

course i might be way way off. :-)

Edited May 18, 2006 by KingNor

[Sumdumgai]

Good points LowViz and KingNor!

[Kurisama]

Ah excellent to see a few of you at least get where i'm coming from! I agree with the whole 'noble/redemption death', i think it adds soooo much more weight to the story.

Guld is definately growing on me more as a in-depth character than just a green-haired douche bag.

Good points 1/1 LowViz Lurker & KingNor!

[mpchi]

My opinion kind of lies in between. While I wouldn't glorify Guld as a heroic figure, I wouldn't see him as a douche bag either. An interesting character that did something terribly wrong, while still has his caring and more human side of him.

One thing did bother me all this time though, is how he can blocked off his memory for so long for what he did to Myung, and became all surprised when he got his flashbacks of his wrong doings. I also see the same thing happens to Cloud in FFVII. Is this some sort of common medical syndrome that people can actually forget a traumatic experience just like Guld did? This is one main story elements in the Macross Plus that I find hard to comprehend.

[Sumdumgai]

It's over-the-counter psychology.

Yeah you can have memories blocked as a way of protecting yourself. you can even have your brain create false replacement memories.

So for example (it's just made up without looking anything up in my books just as a rough example of how it could work):

Minmay snaps and in a fit of rage after being slapped by Hikaru for not singing the song of another woman, pulls that knife from beneath her dress and plunges it repeatedly into Hikaru's chest, then wipes her prints off the knife. She comes to a bit later finding herself covered in blood, a knife in dead Hikaru's chest, and doesn't remember what happened because her mind blocked it all out. Her mind creates some excuse of what happened that is plausible to her. Uh... They got attacked and Hikaru sacrificed himself for her!

Minmay always had some problems that she never liked to talk about and all, plus all that stress of being an idol and being on a superdimensional fortress. But then key thigns that reminded her of the murder would start to bring to the surface the original memory. Knives freak her out when she sees them and she doesn't know why, she'll rationalize and run off. She get's stressed our at seeing dramas with couples fighting, especially if someone gets slapped.

Then after enough of nudging that memory back up, BOOM relives the memory, goes: "Oh Hikaru what have I done?!", breaks down crying and promptly gets hit by a car because she ran into a busy street after having the memory come back.

If you want to see a good movie that works with blocked memory (in a different manner), I recommend Angel Heart, with Mickey Rourke and Robert Deniro, a detective movie of sorts.

[JB0]

It's actually REALLY easy to create false memories.

There was some research done a while back, and it was disturbingly easy to convince people they met Bugs Bunny at DisneyWorld.

Use some adjectives to give their imaginations somethng to work with, and they'll happily fill it all in for you.

[mpchi]

It does work in Macross Plus in terms of getting the viewer in the suspense of trying to find out what really happened between Isamu & Guld. But once its revealed, it made me questioned how thats done. It just seems to me such a shocking event is quite hard to 'forget'. But thanks guys, I'll looking into it when I happen to come across the movie Angel Heart.

[Zentrandude]

5th wheel characters in anime always has to die. its the rules.

RIP Roy best 5th wheeler

[Sumdumgai]

It's actually REALLY easy to create false memories.

There was some research done a while back, and it was disturbingly easy to convince people they met Bugs Bunny at DisneyWorld.

Use some adjectives to give their imaginations somethng to work with, and they'll happily fill it all in for you.

400617[/snapback]

Eats easier done in kids. Which is why it's so important that only trained people talk to kids that have possibly been molested. Because if a bunch of people ask them particular questions over and over, the kids create memories of it.

Best example was a study done where some guy was brought into a classroom of kindergarteners and stood around in the back for a bit. Later they were asked questions, some of them leading. Eventually the kids wound up remembering the guy came in, some of them remembered him talking to the class (when asked if he did that), others remembered him bringing things with him (when asked if he brought stuff with him).

Important point is that memory is never perfect. It's shaped by what you process and perceive. It can be affected by previous events and/or later events. It can and will change over time.

There's all sorts of messed up real life stories I could tell you about psychology stuff, but this isn't the forum for it.

[JB0]

It's actually REALLY easy to create false memories.

There was some research done a while back, and it was disturbingly easy to convince people they met Bugs Bunny at DisneyWorld.

Use some adjectives to give their imaginations somethng to work with, and they'll happily fill it all in for you.

400617[/snapback]

Eats easier done in kids.

This was done with adults, though.

Which is why it's so important that only trained people talk to kids that have possibly been molested.  Because if a bunch of people ask them particular questions over and over, the kids create memories of it.

...

Important point is that memory is never perfect.  It's shaped by what you process and perceive.  It can be affected by previous events and/or later events.  It can and will change over time.

I thought the important point was kids had kickass imaginations.

[Briareos9]

Guld was Kawamori's whipping boy in M+. Something he felt guilty enough about to at least try to be halfway fair to when he made the movie, by extending the combat scene.

Take away Guld and the plot contrivances, and what's Isamu? A prideful, reckless, and irresponsible fighter jock, that has no problem sleeping around. Not to mention an anarchist in spirit that STOLE EXPERIMENTAL MILITARY HARDWARE, breached the defenses of the capital and local planet's security system, caused ridiculous levels of property damage, and all to go after a fighter he never had a chance in hell of taking out anyway. Admit it, if it had actually been gunning for Isamu seriously he'd have been gone in the first few straffing runs, lucky for him Apple was effectively behind the stick and had other plans. What would happen if we took away the extra baggage of rapist, etc., that got tagged on and had Guld be more of a character, who happens to be on the design staff as well?

Isamu needed Guld there to not look like pond scum. So naturally Kawamori goes overboard in making Guld look bad, be evil for no good reason, and generally working as a contrast to make the true slimeball look good. That's how I see it.

Of course, he didn't just rig the characters, he rigged the hardware. Look at the tech sheets, notice something very important missing from the YF-21's capabilities? That's right, no tactical/strategic payloads just minimissiles. Not that the YF-19 is really that much better without violating conservation of volume. As a matter of fact, a lot of things stretch SoD with that plane.

In some ways I suspect he didn't like the fact 5th gen planes, beat out gen 4 and 4.5. So in a lot of respects this was his rant against them, and advancing technology. A rant that ends up being a lot less coherent then the competition. You have to go out on a limb to even make the computer's actions make sense. The given rationale is worse then Batman Beyond's fear gas that somehow doesn't make it's victim cower in fear but act more like zombies when used widescale.

Of course, he made the mistake of having maneuverability being about equal to the YF-19, and the YF-21 once it dropped mecha parts being able to keep up with the X-9. Active stealth technology already exists to a certain degree and is a complementary technology to the RAM and LO construction components. It is however just part of a whole. So seems as how it's already top of the game, and he actually had the UN Spacy airforce willing to shut down Project Super Nova in favor of a nontransformable aircraft he kind of shot himself in the foot for those who actually work with visuals.

The YF-21 was clearly superior, without contrivances, and they could have slashed production costs and greatly increased capacity by dropping the entire mecha component of the design. Something that given it can eject the mecha parts in a tactical situation, isn't that big a deal for that design.

I agree with DeathHammer, on his suggestion of making it better. Have maybe 4 to 5 companies putting forward planes of various types and optimizations for the competition, with a character driven story, and you could probably make a downright decent short series out of it. Not that I believe they could or would do so.

Edited May 20, 2006 by Briareos9

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

One thing did bother me all this time though, is how he can blocked off his memory for so long for what he did to Myung, and became all surprised when he got his flashbacks of his wrong doings. I also see the same thing happens to Cloud in FFVII. Is this some sort of common medical syndrome that people can actually forget a traumatic experience just like Guld did? This is one main story elements in the Macross Plus that I find hard to comprehend.

One thing I notice with anime is they always have some characters with amnesia and it is usually due to these things:

-character had its memory blocked from trauma (eg appleseed cg movie when deunan witnessed her mom's death)

-character was part of some experiment (perhaps some kind of drug, hypnotism, manchurian candidate style mind control/conditioning etc might have been used to purposely block the person's memory of who they really are - eg bourne identity, M.Bison's psychic hold on his victims used as puppets in street fighter)

-person has a split personality This might have just developed gradually as the character conditioned themselves to adapt to thier environment and/or to keep up the image they prefer of themselves in front of the people they respect or admire. eg Lady Hun in Gundam Wing, that smiley kid assasin in Kenshin. Two completely different people fighting for control inside the one person.

Anime has many examples of people whose minds were screwed up at the time of the traumatic incident that drove them crazy and only later towards the end of the show do these memories locked away in their subconsious spring back into thier head at wierd times. If in a japanese rpg you have a character who has conveniently "lost thier memory" you can bet it will be central to solving the mysteries in the story. I guess it is so girls can look at them and say "awww poor thing, you must have had a horrible childhood to have had to go through this experience" and this allows us to see both sides of the story. (ie we are drawn to the dark and mysterious half of the character that would normally be hidden if we were not going to go deep into what they are about and why they behave in such a screwed up way.)

Edited May 21, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[sketchley]

Not to disagree with the point and intent of the post. I beg to differ on one point:

Of course, he didn't just rig the characters, he rigged the hardware.  Look at the tech sheets, notice something very important missing from the YF-21's capabilities?  That's right, no tactical/strategic payloads just minimissiles.  Not that the YF-19 is really that much better without violating conservation of volume.  As a matter of fact, a lot of things stretch SoD with that plane.

The VF-22 has internal pallets for tactical/strategic payloads (reaction missile load seen at the end of Mac 7.)

http://macross.anime.net//mecha/united_nat...vf22/index.html

Though the Macross Compendium doesn't specifically list any in it's article on the YF-21

http://macross.anime.net//mecha/united_nat...yf21/index.html

isn't it possible, dabbling into the probable, that the YF-21 also has the internal pallets, as a) they are in a location on (and otherwise unused) both the YF-21 and VF-22, and b) the YF-19 also has internal pallets. (not to mention the VF-17, the VF-11C (if the animation error is not an error afterall) and the engine nacelle FAST packs of the VF-11C. All of which predate the YF-21.)

I agree that the weapon pallets/bays haven't been seen in the anime, but so too have the Valkyrie grenades...

Anyhow, yes, repressed memories makes for great storytelling. And some people have made some great points in this thread that I fully support.

[JB0]

I agree with DeathHammer, on his suggestion of making it better.  Have maybe 4 to 5 companies putting forward planes of various types and optimizations for the competition, with a character driven story, and you could probably make a downright decent short series out of it.  Not that I believe they could or would do so.

400831[/snapback]

Even with just what they had, a decent series could've been made.

The movie was too short for a lot of character development, and the OVA, aside from STILL being too short, was based on the movie, which placed limits on what they could actually do. They inserted some scenes to lengthen it out. Some of which stretched credibility past reasonable, others which just made no real sense, and still more that were actually really good additions. But it was still just a slightly long movie.

[azrael]

...

isn't it possible, dabbling into the probable, that the YF-21 also has the internal pallets, as a) they are in a location on (and otherwise unused) both the YF-21 and VF-22, and b) the YF-19 also has internal pallets.  (not to mention the VF-17, the VF-11C (if the animation error is not an error afterall) and the engine nacelle FAST packs of the VF-11C.  All of which predate the YF-21.)

I agree that the weapon pallets/bays haven't been seen in the anime, but so too have the Valkyrie grenades...

...

400980[/snapback]

The YF-21 does not have internal pallets like those listed on the VF-22. Those weapon bays are exclusive to the VF-22. I should note that as the YF-21, it is not the final version.

The YF-19 has an internal pallet as we saw very clearly saw. Those hardpoints were mission-variable.

The YF-21 and the YF-19 both have their advantages and disadvantages, which I will not go into as it was done in an earlier thread.

And the VF-11(A thru D), does not have internal hardpoints. That was an animation mistake on the animators part.

[sketchley]

I rechecked my Macross books, and indeed there is no 武装åŽç´ãƒãƒƒãƒ (internal weapons pallet hatch) on the YF-21 (yes for the engine nacelles on the YF-19, if you're asking.)

However, there are some ports that look suspiciously like (tactical?) missile launchers along the central leading edge of the dorsal FAST packs. However, suspicious looking holes do not make for facts...

So yes, the point on Guld's ride (the YF-21) being rigged, is agreed to.

Edited May 22, 2006 by sketchley

[MjrMisaHayase]

I rechecked my Macross books, and indeed there is no 武装åŽç´ãƒãƒƒãƒ (internal weapons pallet hatch) on the YF-21 (yes for the engine nacelles on the YF-19, if you're asking.)

However, there are some ports that look suspiciously like (tactical?) missile launchers along the central leading edge of the dorsal FAST packs.  However, suspicious looking holes do not make for facts...

So yes, the point on Guld's ride (the YF-21) being rigged, is agreed to. 

401130[/snapback]

武装åŽç´ãƒãƒƒãƒ translates to Armament receipt hatch. Isn't that right?

[sketchley]

You used babelfish, didn't you?

I recommend http://www.excite.co.jp/world/english/ (though, you have to have some basics of Japanese to use it.)

It comes up with: Armed storage hatch.

Using dictionaries, it's directly translated as:

武装 (busou) arms; armed

åŽç´ (shuunou) receipts; harvest; put in, store.

So yeah, Armaments Storage Hatch, would be my 'intended meaning' translation.