Kawamori´s Role

[Egan Loo]

That's all fine and good, however, HE himself, has never claimed to have written SDF Macross in interviews. 

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Again, he doesn't have to claim what he did in interviews when the credits given him credit.

[Egan Loo]

I have to agree with Zinjo that most people tend to think Kawamori was more involved with the original SDF Macross than we give him credit for.  From all that I've read, Kawamori's greatest involvement was with the "Outside Story" (episodes 28 - 36) where he began to direct, write, and script. 

Episodes 28-36 were never called "Outside Story." This is a huge misconception of English-speaking fans, based on reading the English title of a Macross Perfect Memory chapter that doesn't even cover episodes 28-36. The Outside Story chapter has Kawamori's Macross Chronology, Ken-ichi Matsuzaki's 2004 submarine story, and Kawamori's description of the story before episode 28.

Back on topic, Kawamori's greatest involvement was before the series started, when he wrote all the story treatments and outlines during pre-production.

The first 27 episodes of Macross was a Studio Nue collaboration.  Several of our most beloved plot points (enemy ace falls in love a human pilot, girl ends the war by singing, said girl works in a Chinese restaurant and falls for the clueless hero, etc) were already set in stone by Studio Nue before Kawamori even had a chance to finish the VF-1.

People know of these plot points from a section of Macross Perfect Memory that describes these plot points from pre-production story outlines--outlines credited to Shoji Kawamori.

  With the VF-1 being such an iconic design, it's easy for us to pin the role of series creator to the VF-1's creator.

It's easy to pin him the role since he is credited with the role of series creator.

- SDF Macross (eps 1 - 27, Kamamori mostly relegated to mecha designs) - Japan and USA love it.

Again, Shoji Kawamori was not mostly relegated to mecha designs.

- SDF Macross (eps 28 - 36, greater involvement with Kawamori) - Lukewarm response in Japan and USA.

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There wasn't lukewarm response in Japan for these episodes. Three of the top ten-rated Macross episodes were from episode 28-36, which meant that 25% of the episodes produced 30% of top-ten Macross episodes.

[Egan Loo]

Let's keep in mind he was "just starting out" when SDF Macross came out (I'll have to check but I believe he was still in University at the time or a recent graduate.) and it is highly doubtful any junior person, no matter how talented, would be given much credence during a production. 

He just started out in 1978, but he was already working in the Studio Nue for five years by the time the first Macross series came out. The reason he was given much credence for the Macross project in particular (unlike the other Studio Nue projects at the time like Crusher Joe) was that he came up with the core concept and wrote all the pre-production story treatments and outlines.

The "wunderkind" getting the keys to the studio is mainly a North American invention, something nearly unheard of in Japan.  There, they believe in mentorships and aprenticeships in most industries including animation.

The reason for the difference in Studio Nue's case is that Studio Nue itself was a "wunderkind"--it has only started as a business a few years earlier. Kawamori's core idea for Macross was the first concept created entirely within the studio that had been green-lit for animated production.

It is extremely doubtful that the Director and story writers sat at his feet listening in great anticipation to the pearls of wisdom he would drop about the universe...

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There was no bowing at the feet and pearl-anticipating, but what the other directors and writers did do is base the series upon the story treatments he created from the core idea he developed.

[Zinjo]

There was no bowing at the feet and pearl-anticipating, but what the other directors and writers did do is base the series upon the story treatments he created from the core idea he developed.

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I stand corrected on the rest, however writing treatments isn't "writing" the episode. Treatments are outlines that evolve and change as a series is written and as directors have "inspirations" during production. The series' episodes often only loosely resemble their treatments if at all after they are shot.

Thus claiming he "wrote" every episode other than the ones he "actually" did pen, is misleading and erroneous.

After 5 years SK would still be considered "new", however it would stand to reason that he be given a greater voice since the series was his idea.

Yet as you may know the "director" has final say in anything that is shot, not the creator or treatment writer, so let's keep things in perspective.

Edited May 17, 2006 by Zinjo

[Egan Loo]

I stand corrected on the rest, however writing treatments isn't "writing" the episode.  Treatments are outlines that evolve and change as a series is written and as directors have "inspirations" during production.  The series' episodes often only loosely resemble their treatments if at all after they are shot.

Thus claiming he "wrote" every episode other than the ones he "actually" did pen, is misleading and erroneous.

It would be, but no one said he "wrote every episode." What he did do is conceive and write the overall story. What was misleading and erroneous was claiming "he wasn't involved in the initial 'setting of the rules' in terms of the story of SDF Macross," when that was quite literally one of his job titles.

After 5 years SK would still be considered "new", however it would stand to reason that he be given a greater voice since the series was his idea. 

In a multi-decade company, that would be true, but in a studio that was only eight years old itself when Macross aired, he was already considered an equal there long before that point. (Japanese animation was still in what many considered the golden age at that point.) That was all the more true because this project was the first concept entirely conceived within Studio Nue to be green-lit for animation production. He definitely wasn't, as it was so inelegantly worded earlier, one of the "bitches."

Yet as you may know the "director" has final say in anything that is shot, not the creator or treatment writer, so let's keep things in perspective.

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The director does not have the final say in what offered to be shot and what is edited and released from what is shot in all cases, and definitely not in many cases in Japanese animated series. Ishiguro has gone on record as saying that he didn't have a final word on several works, most notably on Macross and Legend of the Galactic Heroes.

[Ginrai]

The director does not have final say in American animation -either-, and frequently doesn't have final say in American live action, for that matter. That's a red herring...

[ChrisG]

That's why Anchor Bay is the best choice. 

They acquired and released Macross Plus  as well as Macross II, dispite any HG sabre rattling.  If anyone could challenge and win such a show down it would be them.  Especially now that HG appears to be cash strapped with all the money they've sunk into their new RT show and AB has all the profits from it's home video sales.

ADV is not longert a viable choice as they've gotten into bed with HG just to be able to dub SDF Macross.  Not to mention ADV doesn't have as deep pockets as Anchor Bay would.

Hence, why I suggest all Macross fans go knocking on AB's door about future Macross R1 releases.  The only other choice is Bandai North America.

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Anchor Bay has nothing to do with it. All they did was purchase Manga Entertainment. It's not like they went to Big West and re-licensed anything. There's no difference in the 'new' releases of Plus and II, so I don't think it even matters in any potential problem with HG.

[Nightbat]

If we let Kawamori run rampant with Macross, we might as well place

Captain Planet in a Variable fighter singing Micheal Jackson's "Heal the world"

Kawamori's a great designer, but leave the treehugging "kumbaya" out of it

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I didn't mind the magic in macross zero that much since it ties in well with the alien technology. (ie the antigravity side)

I didn't mind the stuff in macross 7 where we get to see the ruins of the PC (ties back to DYRL and the sunken city) because it fills in some history. (should have been in sdf:macross)

But I hope they meld all this together smoothly and present the story in a interesting way rather than leave us hanging or having to guess. (macross zero ending for example - so the alien flower mecha folds, but where did shin go? how did sara create that barrier around her body and levitate down safely? Was that her powers her father taught?)

The thing I liked about the levitation idea is that it brings to mind this idea that there are aliens with this kind of advanced ability that can sort of generate thier own anti gravity by themselves, and by reverse engineering how those creatures do it in nature, the PC could have genetically modified or manufactured bioorganic monsters as weapons.

So think of the monster in doom that floats (spits out balls of energy from its mouth) and meld this with the story in the game "Resident Evil" of using the monsters as a bio weapon which this race may have wanted to make to replace humanoid soldiers.

I like the idea of scientists taking what exists in nature and using it to make semi-organic mecha. It's just that I am very fussy over how it is designed. (I tend to like scary looking stuff because I am drawn to horror)

Perhaps what they could do is have for the first time a macross which is darker and more scary than previous ones. Instead of them finding some ancient ruins, they stumble upon old PC labs where they find all kinds of bio-mecha which come to life and have escaped. They would be more like eva type mecha then mechanical and parts of machines. In fact make them more like powered suits with living parts inside them.(the zentradi already had a brain living in a ship in DYRL so why not?)

I just think the whole idea of using nature and creating organic parts to make monsters and using them as weapons is interesting. Even the zentradi ships I can imagine as living because they look organic and very 'alien' if you know what I mean. I don't have any problem with monster or aliens, or people tapping into a some magic energy which can't be explained by the characters, (if it fits in with this idea that the PC were very advanced and understood everything) but my main beef was that I want a more dark tone and endings which are obvious and understandable. Like tell me what happened after, what did the characters think after that, was this the reason we were so ready to fight wars in the first place? what happened to the anti-un afterwards and what were the limits of the knowledge they had of antigravity and why we couldn't make fighters or mecha (like in appleseed) with it? etc

I'm thinking that perhaps like in full metal panic (ie mysterious black technology) people like Sara (able to create the barrier or lift rocks with her psychokinesis powers) would be able to have a newtype-ish communication with PC machines (like the psycomu system in gundam?) and this would be the next logical step in fighter design but only select people with this power can make use of it? (but in the past scientists didn't know how to tap into the part of the brain that allows a person to use psycho waves to access the alien technology so there was no advancement in this area for a long time - you needed a mad scientists like the one in macross 7 to help understand it)

Edited May 23, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[sketchley]

Yeah... melding the physical with the metaphysical is troublesome at best. And that's even with audience suspension of belief.

Though, I will point out that some of the best fiction out there leaves some hanging questions - those 'what happened next?' or 'What is the meaning of that?' The main reason being is it stimulaties the imaginations of the audience.

Re: the ending of Macross Zero:

Shin's damaged VF-0 'soft' landed and he had his preverbial ''walk into the sunset."

Sara created the barrier around him because she had become one with the Tori-no-hito (birdman/'alien flower mecha') and was able to use her spiritia powers combined with its super technology to reach across time and space from where ever it folded to. (Given it's sorry state, I suspect that it probably folded away and expired - and Sara's powers were used while it was mid-fold.)

Was it something her father taught? Probably it was a combination of the Tori-no-hito's abilities and her spiritia singing powers. So yes, in part it was something her father taught.

The PC could have genetically modified or manufactured bioorganic monsters as weapons.

They did. The Protodevlin in Macross 7. They fit your descriptions of, and requests for more horror fairly well. Though I will agree that they didn't come across very well in the anime...

In Macross 7, specifically Dynamite, they have reverse engineered anti-gravity to the point that it's included in civilian vehicles. As the anti-grav system on the SDF-1 Macross malfunctioned during it's first take-off, we can presume that it did take something like 35 to 40 years to work all the bugs out.

If a new Macross gets made, the question about having a darker tone or not really depends on how Big West feels the audience will react to it. In the end, it's all about making money, and shows like Macross 7 make more money than limited (or slow to be released) shows like Macross Plus and Macross Zero. (More time for marketing related toys/music/accessories/etc., potential of sequal OVAs and movies, and a 'lower' budget per episode, meaning a smaller start-up cost. In this regard, Shouji Kawamori is bad for a production, as he likes to spend lots of money in making them.)

[Final Vegeta]

Even Oshii made fun of Kawamori's fondness of India

FV

Edited May 23, 2006 by Final Vegeta

[Zinjo]

If a new Macross gets made, the question about having a darker tone or not really depends on how Big West feels the audience will react to it.  In the end, it's all about making money, and shows like Macross 7 make more money than limited (or slow to be released) shows like Macross Plus and Macross Zero.  (More time for marketing related toys/music/accessories/etc., potential of sequal OVAs and movies, and a 'lower' budget per episode, meaning a smaller start-up cost.  In this regard, Shouji Kawamori is bad for a production, as he likes to spend lots of money in making them.)

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I suspect the biggest impediment to a "darker, more adult" Macross series is the whole Tatusunoko lawsuit. Once it is definitively determined who holds the international copyright to Macross, Big West and Nue can then tap into North American financing options to produce such a show and recover their costs.

North American & European audiences are more inclined to support a mature themed Macross series than our Japanese counterparts. Thus Big West's return on investment is much more likely.

Until the Japanese courts clear up the whole international rights issue, HG has a foggy legal leg to stand on in North America.

It may also be the reason why HG has allowed the English dub (such as it is ) of SDF Macross. It may be an act of good faith toward Big West, who they may need to re-negotiate with to retain their SDF Macross license.

[Blitzwing]

If a new Macross TV series, OVA or movie is ever made, I'd like to see Kawamori responsible for the mecha designs of course, but not for the story, unless he's willing to drop all mystical and tree-hugging elements.

And it would be great to have Mikimoto back on character design duties as well.

Graham

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Couldnt agree more

Seriously, I love SDF Macross, and I thank Kawamori for coming with a concept that gave joy to my childhood, but to be brutally honest, as the signature of one member says, Kawamori has forsaken us, he doesnt give a damn about Macross nor about us the fans anymore; the only reason he returns to Macross is cause he is almost forced, pressured if you will, by the studio to return to the franchise and skeeze some more juice from it, which is sad cause back in the old days Macross was a great rival for Gundam but unfortunately did not received the same treatment.

Honestly, after watching the craptacular show M7 was, I wouldnt mind if Kawamori left the seat in favour of someone new and with interest to make a new series.

[JB0]

Seriously, I love SDF Macross, and I thank Kawamori for coming with a concept that gave joy to my childhood, but to be brutally honest, as the signature of one member says, Kawamori has forsaken us, he doesnt give a damn about Macross nor about us the fans anymore; the only reason he returns to Macross is cause he is almost forced, pressured if you will, by the studio to return to the franchise and skeeze some more juice from it, which is sad cause back in the old days Macross was a great rival for Gundam but unfortunately did not received the same treatment.

And Gundam got whored out more than a... ummm... thing that gets whored a lot.

Does the world NEED two dozen diffrent sequels and spinoffs, most of which are remakes anyways? It's an entire industry all by itself.

I rather like that Macross hasn't been pimped so hard. And that each new installment is actually new.

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

I rather like that Macross hasn't been pimped so hard. And that each new installment is actually new.

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The downside is that we get a lot less toys! They have their 1/400 Musai while we are still waiting for our SDF.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Kawamori has forsaken us, he doesnt give a damn about Macross nor about us the fans anymore; the only reason he returns to Macross is cause he is almost forced, pressured if you will, by the studio to return to the franchise and skeeze some more juice from it, which is sad cause back in the old days Macross was a great rival for Gundam but unfortunately did not received the same treatment.

Well I thought Zero was pretty good in terms of dog fights and worth seeing for that reason. But they ended it in a wierd way. Roy didn't beat his teacher with his girlfriend suddenly dying for no reason, the clawed Monster almost killed the alien and saved the day(which is kinda boring), and the main character disapears with no explanation. At least in macross plus dyson takes on the ghost and the sdf1 all by himself and it ends happily. But after macross plus ends we understand how it all happened and everything is tied up. Zero felt like more needed to be told and the climax needed to be better.

For example I would have liked to see a scene where roy is given orders to destroy the the afos and shin must fight against roy to prevent him killing the girl. The UN would eventually attack both of them for roy's refusal of the order to attack his friend, in order to get access to the afos which shin wants to defend. And eventually roy and shin would have to end up fighting against both anti-un and UN pilots using thier VF, and it would be utter chaos as the afos is destroying everything while all this is happening. A comment by the old man would then by played as we see images of them all fighting and destroying each other about the "end of the world" and poo. The islanders would be praying for thier lives as thier land is being wrecked by it all as both sides fight for control of the afos.

And eventually anti un get beaten somehow by a shot from the monster (not the monster beating the afos, that is roy and shin's job) and shin teams up with roy in a moment when the afos is busy. While roy is trying to damage it Ivanov comes out and take him on and they have a battroid brawl and a huge speech explaining why ivaniov was thought dead and some back history into why he is fighting on the anti-un side.

This then brings us to the part where shin meets sara in the cokcpit to calm her down. And the monster then starts to fire. After this, we see the afos make the decision to spare these two and they fold out of there undefeated before the monster can hit it.

Now instead of the plane flying in the air like it was magic, the fold itself causes the plane to go with the afos. Roy finishes off ivanov and the it is found the anti-un are losing and have to retreat as the afos is no longer there.

As roy looks at the wreckage, he realises that amongst all the fighting his girlfriend dies. (the "war is bad war is bad" message in all the gundam shows )

Both sides ended in a stalemate and the destruction they caused has destroyed a culture living off that land who are now homeless (very much like in rain of death but on a smaller scale) and forced to rebuild or move to the city.

Roy is seen crying over his lover, and regrets he couldn't be there to protect her.

A few months pass and it is discovered that the PC may have descendants alive today and the files about aliens are locked away in a vault. After witnessing all these events engines come for vf1 and roy is over the loss and continues on with a scene of him in the vf1 flying around with a team of beginners. (life goes on, new pilots replace the dead ones and roy takes more responsibility, but he never forgets memories of shin and wonders if they are still alive as he and Edgar are having drinks together)

The death rebirth things plays on showing the changes that occur in people and technology with the islanders choosing to except the city life and the old ways die. Although the Phoenix is dead, it gets replaced with better technology, (vf1) to beat the anti-un's sv51s and the old mechanic is happy that there is less young kids dying from missions and returning alive this time. New destroids are seen beating the Octos from the islands (instead of humans with rpgs) and the tide turns with neither side having the satisfaction of having a weapon that can end the wars quickly but slowly gaining in power as the new aliens tech is being reverse engineered. Cut to a scene of a team of scientists managing to get the anti gravity working and lift rocks and a change in the beliefs of all the skeptics of the story of the birdman legends and the prophecies about the end. Military leaders discuss the incident with the disapearing afos and floating rocks and how it relates to technologies inside the alien ship.

The end. It makes sense! All technology has logic link to the abilties of sara, scientists become more openminded about the possibility of humans descended from aliens and able to manipulate thier environment in subtle ways, (mao is tested on since she could communicate with the machines) and it doesn't make the floating rocks and stuff seem like they could float for no reason or due to magic. (since the anti un managed to float stuff for all to see)

Edited June 8, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[JB0]

The downside is that we get a lot less toys! They have their 1/400 Musai while we are still waiting for our SDF.

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True...

Maybe we could keep the relaxed anime attitude but experience the Gundam merchandise whoring?

At least in macross plus dyson takes on the ghost and the sdf1 all by himself and it ends happily.

AHEM!

*holds up a picture of the YF-21 in combat with the X-1*

Isamu never touched the Ghost.

This post has been brought to you by General Galaxy Public Relations, a wholely-owned subsidiary of General Galaxy, Inc. All rights reserved.

I would say to him: "More of macross plus type storytelling, please."

Macross Plus had pretty weak story-telling, actually.

The mecha sequences were great, but the story was patchy.

How about Macross Plus combat with SDF Macross storytelling? IMO, it's still the best-written entry in the franchise.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Sorry made a big mistake there, I meant he intended to take on the ghost, and took on Sharon Apple. In a way Sharon was controlling the ghost and dyson was killing the head of the snake so technically he was fighting it.

*....runs off to a corner where he can't be seen.*

How about Macross Plus combat with SDF Macross storytelling? IMO, it's still the best-written entry in the franchise.

Yes I wouldn't complain. I got reminded a bit of what a new tv series could feel like when they had the eureka 7 Qraus. Such a pity those two characters died. They remind me of max and milia. Now imagine for example if they told a story from the point of view of some zentradi rebels fighting against un spacy. The story itself would be about survival in space and what aliens do in thier spare time when forced to settle on other planets. The focus would be on battling each other for sport and to see who is the best pilot in the group. It would be like the game in macross 7 trash, but with real mecha. Have you seen the movie Gladiator? It would be that but in space. Or even the van damne movie "bloodsport" where they hold those illegal fights to see who is da best.

Well each episode the main character has to beat all the others to prove his worth to the elite. Humans would macronise themselves as training to prove themselves against the aliens and some would be as spies for UN to find out what is going on. The rebels would use the best pilots for real missions against the humans and the last ep would have the main character trying to fight against them but of course being beaten and maybe killed with a smile to his face happy to do in combat as a warrior who stuck it out to the end. (un spacy doesn't consider the rebels a real threat, sort of like the anti un so it is not a major thing, but they love to use them as demonstrations of "aliens as evil")

After the main character's death his name would be remembered by the other warrior aliens for keeping true to thier warlike culture and belief system. Like gladiator the 'hero' dies tragically. We see elements of racist humans wiping out the remnant rebel aliens who are causing trouble and all the other pilots must flee or fight. Then un spacy uses these attacks to demonstrate why we need more powers to fight and kill more aliens and why earth needs to form an empire. Milia and max are seen trying to calm the humans down. Maybe one day they will have to flee or form an independant group due to the racism on earth?

This would show that things were not always perfect for the humans who had to live near the aliens after SW I. (ie there would still be bad boys similar to kamjin still roaming around killing people for fun, rather than out of any need to be true to his tribal code of ethics - these types would be the people who started the games for entertainment)

But it would be an excuse to see aliens fighting in powered armor up close. And might flesh out the story a bit. We hear about rebels roaming around still out there all the time. So it must be like the wild west with all kinds of misbehaving aliens out there wanting to pick fights.

Edited June 8, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Blitzwing]

And Gundam got whored out more than a... ummm... thing that gets whored a lot.

Does the world NEED two dozen diffrent sequels and spinoffs, most of which are remakes anyways? It's an entire industry all by itself.

I rather like that Macross hasn't been pimped so hard. And that  each new installment is actually new.

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You missed my point. I dont want Macross to become an industrial spinoff machine, with not so good stuff every year; I just want us to have more than a few ovas every 5-7 years.

[JB0]

And Gundam got whored out more than a... ummm... thing that gets whored a lot.

Does the world NEED two dozen diffrent sequels and spinoffs, most of which are remakes anyways? It's an entire industry all by itself.

I rather like that Macross hasn't been pimped so hard. And that  each new installment is actually new.

406275[/snapback]

You missed my point. I dont want Macross to become an industrial spinoff machine, with not so good stuff every year; I just want us to have more than a few ovas every 5-7 years.

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So somewhere between the 2. 'Kay.

[Blitzwing]

I agree with lowviz lurker in many things, althoug I actually enjoyed zero I think there were unecessary stuff (like Sara`s force field when both were falling) that was throwed in" just because" and although I did enjoyed the dogfights, by far the best thing in the ovas, I just think that the ending was overly fast paced.

[sketchley]

The only complaints I have for episode 5 are:

truncated story with monologue at the very beginning to 'fast forward' the story

and

when the birdman unfolded it's wings, the action, camera angles/movement, and sound effects didn't match the music.*

* What, you say, shouldn't that be the other way around? No. IMHO Macross Zero is the operatic piece of the Macross series. We've had J-Idol, techno-pop, rock, snd now opera. I think a question is begging to be asked: what musical genre will be the theme of the next Macross series? Blues? Country & Western?

Edited June 8, 2006 by sketchley

[JB0]

The only complaints I have for episode 5 are:

truncated story with monologue at the very beginning to 'fast forward' the story

and

when the birdman unfolded it's wings, the action, camera angles/movement, and sound effects didn't match the music.*

* What, you say, shouldn't that be the other way around?  No.  IMHO Macross Zero is the operatic piece of the Macross series.  We've had J-Idol, techno-pop, rock, snd now opera.  I think a question is begging to be asked: what musical genre will be the theme of the next Macross series?  Blues?  Country & Western?

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Death metal.

[Elektrix]

Just out of curiosity, I have a question for the people who have said they really don't like seeing the "tree-hugging" environmentalism/etc. stuff put into these stories.

As a general question, for the people who don't like to see this, what are your actual opinions on environmentalism? Technically I could guess just from the use of the term "tree-hugging", but I'm genuinely curious. Is it just that you don't think environmentalism and mysticism for that matter are topics that belong in Macross, or is it because you disagree with some of the ideas or philosophy (i.e. you don't think environmentalism is important) that it bothers you to see it?

-Elektrix

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I don't mind the environmentalism. I actually think it was part of the original. Think about when earth got scorched by the lasers? That was a whole planet who relies on that for food, so it illustrates the humans need to take care of earth if they want to survive thing. So there is some truth to the hippy and tree hugging message but some of the characters who accuse the soldiers can be annoying at times. (kaifun unfairly judging soldiers as being responsible for all the damage which at times can't be avoided. Similar to the public blaming the labors in patlabor as being too dangerous if they end up screwing up in front of the cameras)

But I do want explanations for things like when we see rocks floating, normally I like to know why it is there in the story and how a person can do it.

If I see a character manipulate nature and create energy field around thier body, I like to have some explanation like "how did the person do it?" If Sara can heal plants with her mind just by singing, "how is that possible?" Can she not heal Roy's girlfriend from her fatal injuries? Why not?

If I see a mecha fly into the sky damaged, and not know if the character is dead or alive, it kinda bugs me. Like it wasn't letting me know what happened after that event and just ends abruptly like that. (sort of like how people were disapointed when kawamori kills off hikaru and misa as a big "f-you" to the fans )

In gundam they do try to explain the things by saying that newtypes have these powers and that they have technology that allows them to tap into this power to manipulate bits and stuff. In star wars we have the "force". In ful metal Panic you have the mysterious "black technology". (sounds like something from final fantasy 6) In macross there is a hint of it, but it kinda teases us and won't say for certain what it is. Just that singing = magic for the pc. In SDF:Macross and Macross Plus it wasn't really all that magical but it seems like the music really does have magic effects in macross 7 and macross zero.

The PC obviously had this magic because of the way they sealed up the demons using it. So I think maybe like Outlaw Star (the characters in that rely on a combination of magic and technology) there is some truth to the superstitions and legends of the humans with powers. (perhaps the zentradi thought they had witnessed it when viewing that fantasy movie with kaifun killing giant men? There are legends of giants in ancient myth for example like David and Goliath or frost giants you see in role playing games, so I reason perhaps the zentradi were so sure they were witnessing battle footage because they were told of it a long time ago like the music they once remembered a long time ago in DYRL? But of course when told by us humans that it was "just a movie" they realised and gave up on that idea.)

Another thing is:

When basara won't use weapons, when there is no fighting, it kinda cheats the audience of some of the danger in the dogfights. Because each episode all the guy has to do is start singing rather than using weapons to shoot people. If Dyson or Guld did this in macross plus I don't think it would be as popular as wanting to see them fighting. In macross plus they could justify fighting by saying that it was to "protect" from danger. They didn't stop to think of the feelings of the enemy before gutting them with a vf11 gunpod's bayonet, or they'd end up endangering themselves. When kamjin tries to crash his ship into the sdf1 the crew of the sdf1 didn't have time to worry about kamjin's feelings, they were more worried about survival and trying to protect themselves. I guess some of that danger is lost if the series gets too sailormoon-ish or even dragon ball z-ish. (with the main hero "dying" and able to be ressurected from the dead with the dragon ball wishing powers. Basara is like a macross 7 equivalanet to jesus: he "dies" and comes back to save people Without the "danger" of death it kinda cheapens "life". Too much reliance on magical powers can be bad because life isn't as precious anymore and each fight becomes less meaningful.)

Edited June 9, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[sketchley]

But I do want explanations for things like when we see rocks floating, normally I like to know why it is there in the story and how a person can do it.

If I see a character manipulate nature and create energy field around thier body, I like to have some explanation like "how did the person do it?" If Sara can heal plants with her mind just by singing, "how is that possible?" Can she not heal Roy's girlfriend from her fatal injuries? Why not?

If I see a mecha fly into the sky damaged, and not know if the character is dead or alive, it kinda bugs me. Like it wasn't letting me know what happened after that event and just ends abruptly like that.

406552[/snapback]

I take it works like "2001: A Space Odyssey," and "Neon Genesis Evangalion (TV series)," and others with ambiguous endings aren't your cup of tea either?

In the case of Shin's damaged VF - it's him riding out into the sunset. Was he dead? No. Would what happens next be interesting? No. (Rescue, probably court martial, and imprissonment, along with being endlessly questioned by intelligence officers - stuff that is outside of the point of the series.)

(sort of like how people were disapointed when kawamori kills off hikaru and misa as a big "f-you" to the fans )

I hope that the smilie means that you are saying it in jest. Kawamori gave them their proverbial ride into the sunset with Flashback 2012. They weren't killed off.

In macross there is a hint of it, but it kinda teases us and won't  say for certain what it is. Just that singing = magic for the pc. In SDF:Macross and Macross Plus it wasn't really all that magical but it seems like the music really does have magic effects in macross 7 and macross zero.

It's not magic, it's called spiritia. See Macross 7 for further info. I also fail to see the difference between SES technology and the "black boxes" of full-metal panic. If I remember correctly, the "powers" in Macross 7 came about precisely because of SES technology.

As for Gundam - there are quite a few Gundam series that have nothing to do with newtypes or anything metaphysical. Gundam 0083 is the first that comes to mind...

When basara won't use weapons, when there is no fighting, it kinda cheats the audience of some of the danger in the dogfights. Because each episode all the guy has to do is start singing rather than using weapons to shoot people.

A couple of things to consider: in most every anime, does the hero get hurt or damaged very often? Usually it's only when a plot point wants to be made... and Basara did get hit a few times. If it weren't for Emerald Force, he'd probably have been creamed a few times.

Nevertheless, the point with Basara isn't so much that his singing makes him unbeatable, but that your enemy isn't necessarily what you initially think your enemy is.

But you're right, Macross 7 isn't Macross plus for a very good reason - it was aimed primarily at, and marketed to a younger audience. An audience probably very prone to violence and in need of the positive message that 'violence doesn't solve problems.'

With that last thought in mind - back to Macross Zero: it was produced for and marketed pretty much exclusively for the Japanese market. Environmentalism is still only just starting. IMHO, I don't think that you've seen the last of it in anime.

[Zinjo]

It's not magic, it's called spiritia.  See Macross 7 for further info.  I also fail to see the difference between SES technology and the "black boxes" of full-metal panic.  If I remember correctly, the "powers" in Macross 7 came about precisely because of SES technology.

I havent' found much officially definative explanations of what "Spiritia" is. We know it is the "type" of aliens that inhabit the EVIL series Bio-mecha, but not too much farther than that. I suspect I understand what it is "meant" to be from what I've gathered here and there, but I've been burned by Kawamori before on such matters.

As for Gundam - there are quite a few Gundam series that have nothing to do with newtypes or anything metaphysical.  Gundam 0083 is the first that comes to mind...

Others would include, F91, V-Gundam, Gundam Wing, etc....

But you're right, Macross 7 isn't Macross plus for a very good reason - it was aimed primarily at, and marketed to a younger audience.  An audience probably very prone to violence and in need of the positive message that 'violence doesn't solve problems.'

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It's nice to see a Mac 7 appreciator admit that. Too often its fans adamantly attempt to argue how cerebral the series is and how it is actually very mature if you wear the Kawamori colored glasses in the right way...

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

In the case of Shin's damaged VF - it's him riding out into the sunset. Was he dead? No. Would what happens next be interesting? No. (Rescue, probably court martial, and imprissonment, along with being endlessly questioned by intelligence officers - stuff that is outside of the point of the series.)

Yeah but how? I didn't think the vf0 could just fly out of orbit? The fighters in macross plus could.

Kawamori gave them their proverbial ride into the sunset with Flashback 2012. They weren't killed off.

They died or got lost after the megaroad left. Oh well at least max is still alive.

It's not magic, it's called spiritia.

It was called that in macross 7. But some argue that the concept didn't exist yet in the original tv series. So I just call it magic. Because in macross Zero that is what it seems. The priestess have some kind of shamanistic ability that can heal plants and stuff. (and lift rocks and fly on those rocks etc) Its worth noting basara couldn't fly.

As for Gundam - there are quite a few Gundam series that have nothing to do with newtypes or anything metaphysical. Gundam 0083 is the first that comes to mind...

Yep one of my faves along with 8th MS Team. Actually I would recommend this to those who tend to go for more 'realistic' robot/mecha shows like patlabor.

A couple of things to consider: in most every anime, does the hero get hurt or damaged very often? Usually it's only when a plot point wants to be made... and Basara did get hit a few times. If it weren't for Emerald Force, he'd probably have been creamed a few times.

Nevertheless, the point with Basara isn't so much that his singing makes him unbeatable, but that your enemy isn't necessarily what you initially think your enemy is.

You can search the forum for huge debates about why people don't like or do like m7 as much as the others so I won't go into too much detail and bore others. Maybe it was too radical a change in too short a time for the old school fan? I guess that is the risk that comes when you aim to create fresh new idea vs rehash ideas like gundam. Some people like more of the same with new wrapping (macross II) others demand something completely revolutionary and different.

I do think Basara is an interesting character, but the whole "lets make singing a weapon" was kind of strange. And there are still ways you can damage a robot and not kill people. Max and milia did it in sdf:macross. Arnold scwarzenegger did it in terminator 2. I just feared that battles were going to be repetitive for each episode and the same thing would happen each time.

Environmentalism is still only just starting. IMHO, I don't think that you've seen the last of it in anime.

I just wish that it was one of many themes like in sdf:macross rather than hogging the whole show. In SDF:macross you could sympathise with both sides of the argument. For example the zentradi knew only war and destruction of other planets because it was ingrained in them that this was the meaning of life, and eventually we could feel sorry for them for not knowing any better. We could fight them, (and not feel bad because that's what soldiers need to do to protect) but we could also see beyond the fighting and help them too. (max and milia having a kid is a first step)

When we see the earth destroyed, it is our own fault and we share the blame because humans fight and destroy each other and thier environment as much as the aliens. (we are related and that forces people to reflect)

Now in macross 7 with the space whales, I think that could easily be 1 episode of many episodes so there is balance. One of the problems I see is if the message comes off as too preachy and politcial people can see that. eg: If say the actor for james bond movie tells you guns are bad, and goes ahead and glorifies violence in the movie by having him assasinate people with his gun, don't you think that is a little silly? If a person who has made violent movies in the past says we must protect children from violence, doesn't it just seem a little out of place, because they once starred in many violent movies that teach people to deal with situations only with brute strength and killing in thier own past?

I have no problem with environmentalism, but if it is the whole focus of the show then yeah it can make you a little tired because it can be repetitive if they make that the message in every episode. Rather than do that, what they can do is work that into the culture of the alien race and have varying viewpoints. One alien race might be the "scientific" side who makes cures and reseeds planets but needs to study things and do experiments to help themselves find cures and stuff, another race might be primitive and only care about indigenous creatures for humane or religious reasons (but be very hostile and unsympathetic to refugee aliens who wish to settle on thier lands whose own home planet was destroyed, similar to the aliens in space battleship yamato) ...and maybe even add in hostile races whose only goal is to rule the galaxy or anything they see fit to destroy. (zentradi) Maybe even put in petty criminals like in cowboy bebop to make a story more unpredictable? (that is the character is not motivated by thier bloodline or alien race, or politcal faction, or by thier government, just money)

This just makes a show more interesting than having episode by episode of the same message hammered into your brain to make you tired or make you feel guilty. Instead, show different points of view and have many twists. For example have a situation where the destruction of a planet might have been necessary to save other planets from an infestation of dangerous pests that feed off the plants on the other planets, so two disagreeing races at war can both still be "right". The pests might have destroyed crops which people need to feed on, while the animal rights actvivists are barring the farmer aliens from eliminating the pests which if eliminated would protect the farmer aliens' livelihood. Why not have it so both sides are fighting each other for thier beliefs? Neither is wrong but both can't win if one side has its way. There will be no simple answer, only compromise. (or if the two races hate each other enough maybe they will both kill each other to extinction like the PC?)

Everyone fights: even in DYRL. Not all complex problems can be solved with snap solutions. (which is why I liked SDF:macross over DYRL in story) It's not like we don't care to make the world perfect, but that it is inevitable that different people with different priorities will butt heads. I thought they handled it well in SDF:Macross because a single person can be right and have an element of truth in what they do in one issue, realise he can be wrong on some other things, and then slowly want to change to improve himself or to sympathise with the opposing side on some issues by seeing it from thier point of view after "thinking" about it or having a life-changing experience that lets them "grow" or mature. Max for example defends himself in front of kaifun when kaifun mentions that all soldiers are evil for choosing to fight, (he assumes all soldiers wanted this war rather than be dragged into it) ..but later he saves enemies by using nonlethal methods of fighting when he meets milia - maybe kaifun's beliefs actually rubbed off on max at that point and max could now sympathise with enemies now that he was personally in love with an enemy? So that "change in behaviour" is what I want to see. It's just less repetitive that way. We didn't really see that in macross 7 because they went for a more black and white aproach.

Basara was always right because he was the rock star and used his personality and charisma to manipulate his fans into following his beliefs like a cult leader with mind powers over his followers. There were no bitter war orphans that were shown who couldn't stand him or his beliefs in the show or people who couldn't forgive the opposing side like there were in macross plus (eg how you can sense an element of racism from the older generations) that creates an interesting conflicting viewpoint to challenge his ideas. So it came off as a little flat.

Edited June 9, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[sketchley]

Others would include, F91, V-Gundam, Gundam Wing, etc...

I thought V-Gundam had newtypes in it - wasn't the colony/satellite weapon thingy at the end of the series powered by newtypes?

Re: Macross 7 - I teach students here in Japan that are the age that the show targets/ed. It's given me a better understanding of a lot of the context of Macross 7. Though, I will admit that I am disgusted with Mylene's behavior in Macross 7, I can understand it, and the behaviour of the others.

The show is actually, very, very Japanese and I do recommend it as a way to learn about Japanese culture (though without reference it may be difficult to determine what exactly is Japanese, and what is fictional.)

Yeah but how? I didn't think the vf0 could just fly out of orbit? The fighters in macross plus could.

There's no direct evidence for or against the VF-0 having that ability. What is known is that the VF-1 CAN fly to low orbit (first or second episode of the original series), and that Sara's and the birdman's combined powers were 'flying' his damaged jet.

My guess is that Shin had a soft landing somewhere.

The ending is bittersweet - sweet in that everyone (well, almost everyone) lives, and the irradiation of Mayan Island is prevented. Bitter in that both the leading men loose their loves.

Hey, that sounds like an Ang Lee movie!!!

It was called that in macross 7. But some argue that the concept didn't exist yet in the original tv series. So I just call it magic. Because in macross Zero that is what it seems. The priestess have some kind of shamanistic ability that can heal plants and stuff. (and lift rocks and fly on those rocks etc) Its worth noting basara couldn't fly.

What's there to argue? That humans didn't know about it for 50 years? Ok, but that's entirely IN universe. Obviously the creators are going to feel that their audience is smart enough to know what is happening, as there was enough exposition on the concept in a TV series that ran 5+ years beforehand.

Too much exposition is actually a bad thing... (Lord of the Rings (the book) - need I say more about exposition getting in the way of the plot?)

but the whole "lets make singing a weapon" was kind of strange.

I fail to see the point. It was done in Macross II... DYRL... the original series... heck, you could even claim Sharon Apple did it in Macross Plus (turning everyone into zombies so you can steal the Macross... said zombies also go out and 'hunt' people... an incredible weapon all brought about by... singing.)

Re: environmentalism - IMHO it didn't hog the show. Sure, it showed up a few times, but I saw it more as rounding out Sara's character more than anything else - which was contrasted with Shin's city ways...

So that "change in behaviour" is what I want to see. It's just less repetitive that way. We didn't really see that in macross 7.

Didn't Emerald Force change their ways due to Basara?

Anyhow - let me stress: Macross 7's demographic (and it's applicable to kids the world over) NEEDS constant reinforcing messages. Believe me, I know - teaching kids who forget the lesson the moment they walk out of class/the episode ends.

Those kids grew up, and they are probably the people who purchased the most Macross Zero DVDs here in Japan. Those kids/young adults are entering a world where a few, to many of them will end up as freeters and NEETs. These same kids are used to entertainment being a certain way, and being 'educated' by entertainment in certain, shall I say repetitive, ways.

So, to be fair, I don't think any discussion about the pros or cons of anything produced in Japan can be accurate without having an understanding of the Japanese, and the demographic that the production is aimed at.

Edited June 9, 2006 by sketchley

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

What is known is that the VF-1 CAN fly to low orbit (first or second episode of the original series), and that Sara's and the birdman's combined powers were 'flying' his damaged jet.

Really? I thought that was a mistake? Kinda like how there are some scenes of vf1 showing them able to shoot lasers from the sides of the plane rather than from the gunpod or head laser? And that to actually go into space by itself it needs a space booster? (shown in design works, kinda looks a bit like a gluag booster but for a vf1, and launched from a truck. I could be mistaken here)

About sara using her powers to fly the jet: that is what I mean by magic. I don't think basara had that. But it would be good to know a bit more about it. Sorta like how in star wars the old man explains what the force was. We never saw that in the original tv series and would like to know why a human can demonstrate that ability? (creating an energy barrier)

What's there to argue? That humans didn't know about it for 50 years? Ok, but that's entirely IN universe. Obviously the creators are going to feel that their audience is smart enough to know what is happening, as there was enough exposition on the concept in a TV series that ran 5+ years beforehand.

Too much exposition is actually a bad thing... (Lord of the Rings (the book) - need I say more about exposition getting in the way of the plot?)

Ok so I will use the term spiritua when reffering to that specific instance in macross 7 where basara using his singing. But when I say magic I am reffering to the idea that characters are using powers of some sort that can't be explained yet. When the girl flies on a rock it was genuinely very out of the ordinary for a majority of people who don't see things like that everyday. The first impression is to think: its magic. And her being a priestess and stuff using these powers; these are genuinely kept a secret to outsiders. They were not being openly demonstrated to outsiders. (shin lucked out and witnessed this by chance)

In zero I will just say magic. In 7 I will say spiritua. In zero, sara wasn't literally singing to fly herself out of harm's way. I can view the singing as like a form of magic. (since the plants started to magically grow in one instance - maybe this is the healing effect or soothing effect at work to restructure it and revitalise the living thing on a spiritual level?)

I fail to see the point. It was done in Macross II... DYRL... the original series... heck, you could even claim Sharon Apple did it in Macross Plus (turning everyone into zombies so you can steal the Macross... said zombies also go out and 'hunt' people... an incredible weapon all brought about by... singing.)

Re: environmentalism - IMHO it didn't hog the show. Sure, it showed up a few times, but I saw it more as rounding out Sara's character more than anything else - which was contrasted with Shin's city ways...

Sharon apple: Her singing did have a magical effect: that of bringing people intoa hypnotic spell and mind controlling. But it kept that in the background and was minimalistic. Did you see the pilots singing to defeat enemies or zentradi rogues? No. There was still a sense of danger that if the pilot doesn't fight, he might actually die! Maybe in the back our minds we know the hero has to "win" but that doesn't mean we are also not scared and because of this we keep watching until the battle is over and must accept that we see casualties as well as a result of it.

In the tv series it wasn't magic but a 'culture' shock. The effect of song could be resisted by kamjin, soldiers could go back to thier old warrior ways and all problems weren't solved by using music as a perfect solution. It was more like it was a patch fix in the original series. In macross II it is explained that the minmay defense can't be relied upon ALL the time. You sitll need proper training in conventional fighting in case the music is resisted in some way or countered by future threats. In war you don't just assume your enemy won't know your tactic and not adjust to it - as we saw in SDF:Macross when Kamjin flew his ship into the sdf1 and embraced culture but still showed defiance. I'm sure the "magic effect" of love didn't actually kick in to the last second - you got to remember that the boss was killing his own people so there is stll the chance that those aliens will have disagreement with us humans over other things in future. It might have been beneficial to help us kill the boss, but that doesn't mean like in the original series there won't be some bad guys that pop up like kamjin or the boss in future too. They might have only killed the boss out of being sick and tired of him punishing them and in anger, decided he was just a threat to thier own health. (similar to the need for the aliens to help us when they got contaminated and had no choice but to kill thier own commander in SWI)

I guess you could say it was interesting to see that "twist" or wrinkle in the story because it meant minmay/minmay defense by herself wasn't going to win wars or save people and that you still needed weapons for defense. You can't just lay all the blame on soldiers, which was kaifun's unfair judgement on hikaru and the others. There was a good balance of realism that you get from real robot show, as well as a bit of fantasy elements.(ie magic)

Re: environmentalism - IMHO it didn't hog the show. Sure, it showed up a few times, but I saw it more as rounding out Sara's character more than anything else - which was contrasted with Shin's city ways...

That is a fair and valid view. Actually I agree it wasn't too preachy. And she didn't just dwell on environmentalism. But also remember that she was a flawed character herself for breaking her dad's rules - and she is too hard on herself. Similar to how Kaifun was a flawed character and uses minmay for his own political purposes too. (even though he has a good point about her singing being very important to the fans and the people she touches with it.) But the message is it is ok to make mistakes and stuff too - nobody is perfect - sara can't blame herself for the destruction of the world, as it was not her fault that ASS1 crash landed and led to the scientists hunting the AFOS using the special radar. When Shin crashes his plane into the island and she tells shin to piss off, you can't just paint shin as evil evil evil. We know he went through some bad stuff as a kid too: seeing the ass 1 crash onto earth and wanting not to hear earthquakes ever again, so he joins up to fight or protect earth from aliens if it ever becomes a threat. Same thing with kaifun being unfair to all the other soldiers and blaming them for everything. It's not easy fighting a race of giants that outnumber you. I felt more sympathetic to global because he has to keep everyone safe. Without some weapons to defend ourselves from the aliens, we might not have been able to survive. (there are still bad people on the alien side as there are good people on the alien side - bad meaning they will do everything they can to wipe out as many humans as they can due to being crazy or having no regard for life)

Macross zero for me had a rushed ending but the dogfights really made up for it. My issue isn't with the magic in that.

But 7 was too repetitive imo. Even if it was aimed at kids, and has space whales that sing, that doesn't mean I have to like it. I still liked macross plus and zero more because it is just more exciting to me to see people fighting in mecha using thier skills over singing in thier cockpit and having enemies run away. And if that happens every episode, for 50 eps, it can get old imo. It's not so much the environmentalism itself, but the repetition and the same message over and over again with not much happening. It kind of like the same reason I may get tired of watching those fighting animes where the characters talk and talk and talk for episodes at a time before starting to fight. Imagine a wreslting match where for half of the time you spent it was just theatrics? It can get a little tiring and repetitive.

And why not have a situation where both sides can be right but they just fight for thier belief? In gundam for example the spacenoids are the environmentally conscious ones for moving to space to let mother earth "heal" but that doesnt mean we can't also view these people as Ecco Terrorists who show a bit of danger too. (hating war but using war machines to make thier point and force us to listen to them all the while endangering those who they love with thier fighting) This is what I mean by balance. You can still have your enviromentalism but why not have chracters "who are not perfect" yet also have a good reason (a personal one) to not want to change thier ways? Just makes it more dramatic. I like the fact that in gundam wing the peace craft character with the mask can totally admit he is a big hypocrite to himself and his dad's teachings and that he has to wear the mask in shame to not offend the family traditions, in which he has got blood on his hands from using violence and killing people, which he believes is a necessary evil to bring about change which the next generation can fix. The idealists with "good intentions" but shameful behaviour can be viewed as both hero and villain at the same time and that is what I mean by having more than one quality in a single character. Much more interesting to have flawed characters than perfect ones imo. Who knows maybe in years to come those "kids" will grow up and mature and appreciate a series better because it tries to add more complexity and not solve things in 1 half hour all the time and be too preachy?

In SDF:Macross I thought that there was a lot of flawed characters which is why I like it. Misa's dad for example can be viewed as both a hero or a apeface. He can be a hero for managing to make use of the grand cannon to wipe out the aliens which allowed us to win the war, but at the same time he was also kind of selfish as a father, demanding that misa be safe and sound hiding under a hole in the earth while other people's children have to die. You can view them in more than one light and allows you to be cynical. When misa tried to explain that the aliens had massive numbers and that we need to make peace with them, the higher ups didn't believe. They thought they could take them on. They didn't give a poo if taking a tough guy aproach might endanger the people living on the surface in the line of the alien laser bombardment (reprisal attack) because it meant they could then make a deal with the aliens that allowed them to appear to take a stronger stance by showing that we are prepared to fight with force. (hoping they would respect that and be a little more fearful and discourage them from thinking they can push us around)

But as much as you can view the character in either light, it allows you to forgive them for thier flaws too because they might have good intentions but just have a different way of fighting. If everyone is the same, (there is no grey characters who are agnostic to either sides viewpoint) and no one is there to challenge each other and there is no conflict or any action, then the show is boring imo.

But I do hope that if they make a new series: can they please tell us more about the pc and thier horrific bioweapon experiments? But do it in a scarier way like movie like "The thing" or "aliens". I would so love for them to combine the gritty scenes of macross plus and violence in DYRL, (milia going full force on thier weaklings) with a scary setting. They sorta did it with patlabor WXIII when they had that bioweapon escape and it kills people, because it felt like a horror movie. I want something like that for macross but with PC monsters!

Edited June 10, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[JB0]

It's not magic, it's called spiritia.  See Macross 7 for further info.  I also fail to see the difference between SES technology and the "black boxes" of full-metal panic.  If I remember correctly, the "powers" in Macross 7 came about precisely because of SES technology.

I havent' found much officially definative explanations of what "Spiritia" is. We know it is the "type" of aliens that inhabit the EVIL series Bio-mecha, but not too much farther than that. I suspect I understand what it is "meant" to be from what I've gathered here and there, but I've been burned by Kawamori before on such matters.

No, the aliens ATE spiritia.

[Ginrai]

Multiple replies:

"When basara won't use weapons, when there is no fighting, it kinda cheats the audience of some of the danger in the dogfights. Because each episode all the guy has to do is start singing rather than using weapons to shoot people."

This is BS. Gamlin is always there shooting at the Varuta, plus it's actually -more- dangerous for Basara. Since he isn't shooting back (most of the time) it's a lot more likely he'll get hurt or killed. Granted, it only happens rarely because he's an important character, but still.

"I thought V-Gundam had newtypes in it - wasn't the colony/satellite weapon thingy at the end of the series powered by newtypes?"

Aren't you talking about the satellite gun thing in Gundam X? Plus the final battle in F91 is pretty newtypey... not as new typey as Char's Counterattack, but still...

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

This is BS. Gamlin is always there shooting at the Varuta, plus it's actually -more- dangerous for Basara. Since he isn't shooting back (most of the time) it's a lot more likely he'll get hurt or killed. Granted, it only happens rarely because he's an important character, but still.

But we don't care if he succeeds or fails because we know nothing about him and he doesn't really do much apart from sing in his cockpit.

He dodges the fire, sings, the enemy space folds out of there, and that's it. I'd much rather see weapons being used ie m+. (maybe have it so pilots eject to make is safe for kiddies and keep a low body count) Or have situations where the character can't help but need to defend themselves from characters who are at thier level of skill. I'm not saying he isn't interesting character but the story seemed a bit flat.

Imagine for example basara having an evil version of himself to challenge him and he is a match in piloting ability? (similar to milia vs max) Without conflict there is nothing to see. Sure gamlin is occasionally there to back up basara but it feels like gamlin isn't needed unless it is defending innocent people in macross 7. Sort of like how you can have a hero and you have the hero's semi-useful sidekick.

Ahahaha sorry to fans of gamlin, but i think basara is SO good, that the only thing that can threaten him is an ace on milia's or max's level. He is way too powerful imo. That's the impression I got anyway. There was no where near a situation like that what you see in a amuro/char battle where the robots get damaged and almost destroyed completely from all the fighting. (like in a close boxing match you want to see two guy slugging it out and almost losing) And then the pilot gets gradually better, faster, more wise, more experienced, etc from when they began and that they can mature or grow eventualy reaching a point where some event has changed them.

Edited June 10, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[azrael]

Long replies.....

So what was this thread about?

[Zinjo]

Multiple replies:

"I thought V-Gundam had newtypes in it - wasn't the colony/satellite weapon thingy at the end of the series powered by newtypes?"

Aren't you talking about the satellite gun thing in Gundam X? Plus the final battle in F91 is pretty newtypey... not as new typey as Char's Counterattack, but still...

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It's been a while since I saw V Gundam, but what I do recall is that it was one of the first Gundam series that steered away from the telepathic Newtype pilots.

F91 from what I remember had no Newtypes in it. The F91 was geared to the main character's bio signs because it was developed by his mother.

Though the Gundam Otaku will correct me if I'm wrong.