Starship Combat.

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

OK, if the Zentran forces weren't out to investigate/scout/capture the SDF, does the SDF stand a chance in a straight up fight against something like a Nupetiet Vergnitz (sp)? How about the smaller Zentran destroyers?

We can see on the TV series that the SDF's main gun can blow away any Zentran ship short of Boldoza's base in 1 shot.

But we also see that 1 hit from just 1 of the many beam guns from a Zentran ship can cause serious damage to the SDF too (that episode when Kamjin made one of his operators hit the SDF with 1 shot).

I would assume that a full barrage from a big Zentran ship could KO the SDF (the pin point barrier can't block say, 40 shots if they all fired at once, 37 would get thru). And the barrier shield is a stalemate since the SDF can't fire back and once it overloads, the Zentran ship can continue blasting on).

So I assume its down to range. Does the main gun on the SDF outrange those energy beams from a Zentran ship?

[Garou Kuroryuu]

So I assume its down to range. Does the main gun on the SDF outrange those energy beams from a Zentran ship?

398314[/snapback]

For what it's stated in the series and it appears, it actually does. It seems like Zentran's main guns' range are around a stable orbit from Earth (50,000 km at most?), while the Macross blasts the 2 scout ships Vlrithai sends from Earth's atmosphere and up to around half way to moon orbit (150,000 km?).

Also, if the Zentran believed the Macross to be a powerfull opponent, even in the hands of microns, it may have been for a reason, not just luck. The SA gunshps seem to pack quite a punch.

We can still check what the Macross Compendium has to say about it.

Edited May 10, 2006 by Garou Kuroryuu

[Mr March]

The Macross can fire it's main gun from a minimum effective range of what appears to be one light-second out (roughly 300,000 kilometers). The first episode makes a rather clear statement of the range at about 285k or something like that. It's likely the Zentradi guns can fire at a very similar range, especially given what we see of Vrlitwhai's vessel firing its cannon in the battle for the Factory Satellite.

I can guarantee there is more to capital ship combat in Macross than just range, much like any combat situation in real life. You'd have manuvers, electronic warfare, engage and withdrawal, fighters, et cetera. Most of the combat as presented in the series is simplified for the sake of the audience. Most combat in modern entertainment is simplified this way and is often stylized to make it more interesting.

Edited May 10, 2006 by Mr March

[Phalanx]

Well tell me this, won't the SDF-1's overheat from all of those shots ired from it's canons and the PPBS would not work due to all the energy it needs to function by drawing energy from the laser cannons.

[Macross73]

The sdf-1 was working behind the 8 ball from the start. Had the Zentradi pushed it and had started the atttacks full force and even then had Kamjin not been pulled back as often as he did the SDF-1 would not have made it. Once they were out by Pluto, it should have been over. Also, you cant have alot of shows if you kill everybody off in the first episode.

[Mr March]

Well tell me this, won't the SDF-1's overheat from all of those shots ired from it's canons and the PPBS would not work due to all the energy it needs to function by drawing energy from the laser cannons.

398355[/snapback]

Who cares?

[Knight26]

The series pretty clearly shows that the Macross itself and the earth in general is outclassed militarily by the Zentraedi. The only reason they didn't just blast us out of existance was curiosity and then when they saw that we had Reaction weapons they decided to try and get them themselves. So, thinking that the reaction weapons came from the Macross they chase after it and try not to kill it but to capture it. Then of course Boldolza realizes the threa humanity poses and says screw it blast the suckers into oblivion, which they did to good effect. Unfortunately for him the grand cannons cut neough out of his fleet for the Macross and Breetai's fleet to get in close and nuke the SOB into the next level of existance.

[JB0]

So I assume its down to range. Does the main gun on the SDF outrange those energy beams from a Zentran ship?

398314[/snapback]

For what it's stated in the series and it appears, it actually does. It seems like Zentran's main guns' range are around a stable orbit from Earth (50,000 km at most?), while the Macross blasts the 2 scout ships Vlrithai sends from Earth's atmosphere and up to around half way to moon orbit (150,000 km?).

Those are both minimum ranges. We have nothing to go by for maximums.

Though the fact that the Macross' cannon ripped through a wall of rock, boiled off a large mass of water, and tore through the atmosphere BEFORE punching that zentradi vessel(which it went through like it wasn't there) implies a VERY high range based on power output. And the rock, steam, and air failed to disrupt the beam's coherence signifigantly.

I think the functional ranges are limited by sensor accuracy as opposed to the weapon.

Also, if the Zentran believed the Macross to be a powerfull opponent, even in the hands of microns, it may have been for a reason, not just luck. The SA gunshps seem to pack quite a punch. 

We had the legendary reaction weaponry. We rebuilt the ASS. We could've added reaction weaponry to the ASS.

They didn't really consider the vessel in and of itself to be a threat. They chased it because it was part of the Supervision Army. They let us live because they wanted our nukes. Then they got culturally contaminated and tried to exterminate us.

But we had a SEKRIT WEAPON, insider knowledge, and a large deal of zentradi defectors.

And yes, luck. Bodol was polite enough to park near the Grand Cannon's attack area, so when it fired, it cleared a path straight through the fleet for easy access to the command center.

[Zinjo]

Unfortunately for him the grand cannons cut neough out of his fleet for the Macross and Breetai's fleet to get in close and nuke the SOB into the next level of existance.

398363[/snapback]

Actually if I recall, the Macross simply overloaded it's barrier inside Bodolza's baseship and took it down from the inside out.

You may be confusing DYRL with SDF Macross...

[Knight26]

They overloaded the barrier by launching a buttload of nukes inside his fortress and getting hit by the blasts.

[JB0]

Unfortunately for him the grand cannons cut neough out of his fleet for the Macross and Breetai's fleet to get in close and nuke the SOB into the next level of existance.

398363[/snapback]

Actually if I recall, the Macross simply overloaded it's barrier inside Bodolza's baseship and took it down from the inside out.

You may be confusing DYRL with SDF Macross...

398470[/snapback]

You're confusing Robotech with Macross.

The "Robotech Masters" in Robotech theorized that an inverted barrier, when overloaded, could kill the flagship.

In Macross, it was an overglorified version of a Daedalus Attack.

Put pinpoint barriers up(an upgraded version no less! I counted 4 disks.), ram the ship to get through the outer armor, plow through the soft squishy innards until you're in the core, fire EVERY REACTION WEAPON ON THE SHIP, and then put the barrier up to save the Macross from the ensuing explosion to end all explosions when all those nukes started hitting things.

Which it did, to a large degree. The Macross took damage(it looks pretty rough when it's coming back down to Earth at the end), but was intact and repairable.

Remember, a barrier overload only releases the energy the barrier has absorbed. If they nukled their barrier, they'd just spread the power of their nukes out over a very wide area, diluting the force delivered to any one target massively. Better to directly hit targets with the nukes.

And really, I never understood why the Robotech Masters thought a barrier inversion and overload was needed when they were inside the armor and firing at things.

[Lightning]

We had the legendary reaction weaponry. We rebuilt the ASS. We could've added reaction weaponry to the ASS.

They didn't really consider the vessel in and of itself to be a threat. They chased it because it was part of the Supervision Army. They let us live because they wanted our nukes. Then they got culturally contaminated and tried to exterminate us.

But we had a SEKRIT WEAPON, insider knowledge, and a large deal of zentradi defectors.

And yes, luck. Bodol was polite enough to park near the Grand Cannon's attack area, so when it fired, it cleared a path straight through the fleet for easy access to the command center.

398442[/snapback]

we also had one other legenday weapon......Minmay's ASS!

[Skullsixx]

We had the legendary reaction weaponry. We rebuilt the ASS. We could've added reaction weaponry to the ASS.

They didn't really consider the vessel in and of itself to be a threat. They chased it because it was part of the Supervision Army. They let us live because they wanted our nukes. Then they got culturally contaminated and tried to exterminate us.

But we had a SEKRIT WEAPON, insider knowledge, and a large deal of zentradi defectors.

And yes, luck. Bodol was polite enough to park near the Grand Cannon's attack area, so when it fired, it cleared a path straight through the fleet for easy access to the command center.

398442[/snapback]

we also had one other legenday weapon......Minmay's ASS!

398538[/snapback]

the most powerful weapon as well as a reason that many wars were really started... a nice piece of ass!!!

[ComicKaze]

So I assume its down to range. Does the main gun on the SDF outrange those energy beams from a Zentran ship?

398314[/snapback]

For what it's stated in the series and it appears, it actually does. It seems like Zentran's main guns' range are around a stable orbit from Earth (50,000 km at most?), while the Macross blasts the 2 scout ships Vlrithai sends from Earth's atmosphere and up to around half way to moon orbit (150,000 km?).

Those are both minimum ranges. We have nothing to go by for maximums.

Though the fact that the Macross' cannon ripped through a wall of rock, boiled off a large mass of water, and tore through the atmosphere BEFORE punching that zentradi vessel(which it went through like it wasn't there) implies a VERY high range based on power output. And the rock, steam, and air failed to disrupt the beam's coherence signifigantly.

I think the functional ranges are limited by sensor accuracy as opposed to the weapon.

Also, if the Zentran believed the Macross to be a powerfull opponent, even in the hands of microns, it may have been for a reason, not just luck. The SA gunshps seem to pack quite a punch. 

We had the legendary reaction weaponry. We rebuilt the ASS. We could've added reaction weaponry to the ASS.

They didn't really consider the vessel in and of itself to be a threat. They chased it because it was part of the Supervision Army. They let us live because they wanted our nukes. Then they got culturally contaminated and tried to exterminate us.

But we had a SEKRIT WEAPON, insider knowledge, and a large deal of zentradi defectors.

And yes, luck. Bodol was polite enough to park near the Grand Cannon's attack area, so when it fired, it cleared a path straight through the fleet for easy access to the command center.

398442[/snapback]

The beam also manages to make a 90 degree turn!!!

I don't know how the Zentran managed so long without actually figuring out nukes.

[ComicKaze]

We had the legendary reaction weaponry. We rebuilt the ASS. We could've added reaction weaponry to the ASS.

They didn't really consider the vessel in and of itself to be a threat. They chased it because it was part of the Supervision Army. They let us live because they wanted our nukes. Then they got culturally contaminated and tried to exterminate us.

But we had a SEKRIT WEAPON, insider knowledge, and a large deal of zentradi defectors.

And yes, luck. Bodol was polite enough to park near the Grand Cannon's attack area, so when it fired, it cleared a path straight through the fleet for easy access to the command center.

398442[/snapback]

we also had one other legenday weapon......Minmay's ASS!

398538[/snapback]

the most powerful weapon as well as a reason that many wars were really started... a nice piece of ass!!!

398546[/snapback]

I'd join up and kill for that ass.

Edited May 11, 2006 by ComicKaze

[Sumdumgai]

When firing the Macross cannon, they should scream "ASS ATTACK!"

Seriously they should have broadcasted a porno video while broadcasting Minmay's music.

[ComicKaze]

When firing the Macross cannon, they should scream "ASS ATTACK!"

Seriously they should have broadcasted a porno video while broadcasting Minmay's music.

398615[/snapback]

It's true. If they really wanted to win the war early and save bloody earth, all it would have taken is a porno tape to save the human race. Too bad nobody thought of it.

They'd culture shock every Zentran to instant death.

Edited May 11, 2006 by ComicKaze

[JB0]

So I assume its down to range. Does the main gun on the SDF outrange those energy beams from a Zentran ship?

398314[/snapback]

For what it's stated in the series and it appears, it actually does. It seems like Zentran's main guns' range are around a stable orbit from Earth (50,000 km at most?), while the Macross blasts the 2 scout ships Vlrithai sends from Earth's atmosphere and up to around half way to moon orbit (150,000 km?).

Those are both minimum ranges. We have nothing to go by for maximums.

Though the fact that the Macross' cannon ripped through a wall of rock, boiled off a large mass of water, and tore through the atmosphere BEFORE punching that zentradi vessel(which it went through like it wasn't there) implies a VERY high range based on power output. And the rock, steam, and air failed to disrupt the beam's coherence signifigantly.

I think the functional ranges are limited by sensor accuracy as opposed to the weapon.

Also, if the Zentran believed the Macross to be a powerfull opponent, even in the hands of microns, it may have been for a reason, not just luck. The SA gunshps seem to pack quite a punch. 

We had the legendary reaction weaponry. We rebuilt the ASS. We could've added reaction weaponry to the ASS.

They didn't really consider the vessel in and of itself to be a threat. They chased it because it was part of the Supervision Army. They let us live because they wanted our nukes. Then they got culturally contaminated and tried to exterminate us.

But we had a SEKRIT WEAPON, insider knowledge, and a large deal of zentradi defectors.

And yes, luck. Bodol was polite enough to park near the Grand Cannon's attack area, so when it fired, it cleared a path straight through the fleet for easy access to the command center.

398442[/snapback]

The beam also manages to make a 90 degree turn!!!

I don't know how the Zentran managed so long without actually figuring out nukes.

398601[/snapback]

I assume you're talking about the smaller guns on the zentradi ships.

They didn't actually DEVELOP their equipment. They did the equivalent of picking it up at a store, and when the store stopped carrying it, they were screwed.

[ComicKaze]

So I assume its down to range. Does the main gun on the SDF outrange those energy beams from a Zentran ship?

398314[/snapback]

For what it's stated in the series and it appears, it actually does. It seems like Zentran's main guns' range are around a stable orbit from Earth (50,000 km at most?), while the Macross blasts the 2 scout ships Vlrithai sends from Earth's atmosphere and up to around half way to moon orbit (150,000 km?).

Those are both minimum ranges. We have nothing to go by for maximums.

Though the fact that the Macross' cannon ripped through a wall of rock, boiled off a large mass of water, and tore through the atmosphere BEFORE punching that zentradi vessel(which it went through like it wasn't there) implies a VERY high range based on power output. And the rock, steam, and air failed to disrupt the beam's coherence signifigantly.

I think the functional ranges are limited by sensor accuracy as opposed to the weapon.

Also, if the Zentran believed the Macross to be a powerfull opponent, even in the hands of microns, it may have been for a reason, not just luck. The SA gunshps seem to pack quite a punch. 

We had the legendary reaction weaponry. We rebuilt the ASS. We could've added reaction weaponry to the ASS.

They didn't really consider the vessel in and of itself to be a threat. They chased it because it was part of the Supervision Army. They let us live because they wanted our nukes. Then they got culturally contaminated and tried to exterminate us.

But we had a SEKRIT WEAPON, insider knowledge, and a large deal of zentradi defectors.

And yes, luck. Bodol was polite enough to park near the Grand Cannon's attack area, so when it fired, it cleared a path straight through the fleet for easy access to the command center.

398442[/snapback]

The beam also manages to make a 90 degree turn!!!

I don't know how the Zentran managed so long without actually figuring out nukes.

398601[/snapback]

I assume you're talking about the smaller guns on the zentradi ships.

They didn't actually DEVELOP their equipment. They did the equivalent of picking it up at a store, and when the store stopped carrying it, they were screwed.

398751[/snapback]

Oh yeah, that's right. It's been so long since I viewed Macross. They also can't fix or replace anything once it's broken...ie: broken window Max flies through stays broken for the rest of the series.

[JB0]

Obviously its just a show, but from a tactical standpoint, be pretty nutty to want to go head to head in a stand up fight with the Zentraedi. They would win on pure attrition alone. All the tricks in the bag and unconventional tactics can only do so much when you run out of civilians left to train as cannon fodder.

Right. Hence Exedol's strategy of just knocking out the command ships, since zentradi rules have forces fold out of battle as their commanders get knocked out.

Still difficult, but not impossible(given the thousand or so zentradi ships they had assisting them).

The Grand Cannon was a stroke of luck in that it let them go straight for the top of the ranks and remove the whole fleet at once.

Once the humans established that the Zentraedi needed oxygen, water and food like humans do, I'd think they'd consider some form of chemical warfare. ( Find some main hub like Dolzas command center where food, medicine and water are distributed throughout the fleet, turn the 3 spies and Millia loose to spike it and kill all the Zentraedi that way)

399002[/snapback]

Too slow. They didn't have months to wait while rations were redistributed, or even days to wait while everyone on Bodol's ship got sick and died.

They needed to kill the entire fleet BEFORE they trained their guns on the Macross and Britai's forces, which would have been happening in minutes had they not dived right into the thick of things with 80s pop music blaring.

Good plan if you have time to spare, though.

Edited May 12, 2006 by JB0

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

Well, my original question was still how the Macross would fare against _one_ Zentran ship.

Guess the opinion here is about 50/50? The SDF was _only_ a gunboat after all. It might be better then a Zentran destroyer but I don't think its good enough to overwhelm multiple Zentran boats or something like Vritwhai's battleship?

Guess that final fight between the worn out Macross and Kamjin's flying garden was quite indicative then?

[Mr March]

Well, my original question was still how the Macross would fare against _one_ Zentran ship.

Guess the opinion here is about 50/50? The SDF was _only_ a gunboat after all. It might be better then a Zentran destroyer but I don't think its good enough to overwhelm multiple Zentran boats or something like Vritwhai's battleship?

Guess that final fight between the worn out Macross and Kamjin's flying garden was quite indicative then?

399154[/snapback]

Ooops. Sorry, must have missed that

I think the Macross outclasses any single Zentradi ship as seen in the series. It may only be a Supervision Army gunboat, but in nearly every one-on-one situation it comes out on top. Granted, most of those situations are skewed in favor of the Macross, but the Macross came out the better against Kamjin's cruiser in the final episode even when the Macross was at a disadvantage. Taking into account that the Pin Point Barrier system can repel the main cannon on Zentradi Cruiser and the Full Barrier can repel full fire from multiple Zentradi Capital ships, I think the Macross is confidently victorious in any one-on-one engagement.

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

No restraint 1 vs 1.

I don't see how in a 'normal' combat a Zentran ship will ever get close enough for a Daedalus attack.

Seeing that the Zentran capships have multiple beam cannons and that the Macross can only stop 3 at a time with the shields (barrier shield doesnt let them fire back, not a good option in a 1 v 1) + the fact that even 1 beam can damage the Macross badly, the only way for the Macross to outpunch a Zentran ship is still to outrange it.

[JB0]

Ooops.  Sorry, must have missed that

I think the Macross outclasses any single Zentradi ship as seen in the series.  It may only be a Supervision Army gunboat, but in nearly every one-on-one situation it comes out on top. 

I disagree.

Taking into account that the Pin Point Barrier system can repel the main cannon on Zentradi Cruiser

The PPB CANNOT repel the main cannon on a Zentradi Cruiser.

Kamjin's main cannon went through ALL THREE PPB disks.

Admittedly, we don't know if the disks take "damage" when hit so the PPB might not have been at full capacity.

But the fact remains that the only time the PPB has been hit with a main weapon, it failed.

Larger zentradi vessels, such as Britai's ship, have larger main cannons, with beam widths bigger than the PPB disks. The PPB system is limited in the size of the weapon it can defend against, as well as the power. That is it's ultimate weakness.

and the Full Barrier can repel full fire from multiple Zentradi Capital ships, I think the Macross is confidently victorious in any one-on-one engagement.

399163[/snapback]

The omnidirectional barrier gives them a chance in a full-on no-holds-barred encounter with a larger ship. But they have to make it in close to their opponent before barrier overload. I assume that from close range, they can toggle from ODB to PPB and do a Daedalus before they're overwhelmed with firepower. A point-blank barrier overload would be effective as well, but it has undesirable effects on the ship, including destruction of barrier equipment and death of barrier techs.

No restraint 1 vs 1.

I don't see how in a 'normal' combat a Zentran ship will ever get close enough for a Daedalus attack.

The best explanation is that heavy ECM prevents accurate long-range combat.

If the zentradi use it, the Supervision Army uses it, and we likely reverse-engineered it.

That's actually the only rational explanation for the close-range combat regularly seen in the animation. Though visual-only should STILL be highly effective at long ranges in space.

Seeing that the Zentran capships have multiple beam cannons and that the Macross can only stop 3 at a time with the shields (barrier shield doesnt let them fire back, not a good option in a 1 v 1) + the fact that even 1 beam can damage the Macross badly, the only way for the Macross to outpunch a Zentran ship is still to outrange it.

The main cannons are pretty potent and coherent.

It likely boils down to sensor resolution. Whoever sees first fires first. And whoever fires their main cannon first wins.

That gives us the edge, as we have scientists and technicians capable of adapting and improving upon the sensors the ASS originally came with, while the Zentradi are still using the same old equipment. We're also likely shooting at a bigger ship in the case of major vessels, or a weaker one in the smaller case. We've got basically the smallest ship that can carry that big a gun.

The beam is sublight, so there's a chance to dodge, because you'll see the weapon before it hits you. The further apart you are, and the better your sensors, the more lead time you'll have.

If the weapons have variable coherence, this means whoever has the bigger gun is at an advantage, because they can spread their weapon wider to increase the hit area(using it like a shotgun, essentially). Depending on the enemy vessel, this could work for OR against the Macross.

The guy with better armor will take less damage from any given hit(fanning the beam out makes it less potent with distance), so you have to use a tighter beam against better armor, thereby reducing your hit area, meaning you have to engage at closer range against better armor. But both sides seem to have rather light armor(in that anti-fighter missiles penetrate), so this isn't much of an issue.

...

You COULD use a wider cannon shot to strip weaponry and escort fighters from a ship before you moved in close for a better hit chance with a tighter beam.

The zentradi guns are exterior turrets, so they're more lightly-armored than the main body. A spread shot could fry them even if it diluted the weapon below the power level needed for a kill on the ship.

And zentradi mecha seem to be made of match heads.

This actually looks like the strategy Britai used in the factory satellite capture mission. A wide conical blast from his main weapon to clear LOTS of machinery from the battlefield at once.

I think that the Macross probably has the overall edge, but it's not exactly awe-inspiring.

[Briareos9]

Well, my original question was still how the Macross would fare against _one_ Zentran ship.

Guess the opinion here is about 50/50? The SDF was _only_ a gunboat after all. It might be better then a Zentran destroyer but I don't think its good enough to overwhelm multiple Zentran boats or something like Vritwhai's battleship?

In reality (translation: if it didn't have high grade character shielding) that depends on several factors.

From a design standpoint:

-Due to smaller crewmen it can at least theoretically carry more fighters. Of course, I've never seen the numbers on the equivalent Zentradi ship.

-When the main gun actually works it can be quite devestating to the aging unshielded Zentradi vessels. Of course this requires them to be forced by character shields to group close together in an airless void with more then enough room to spread out and still cover each other.

-The secondary batteries, when they work, are about the same as the main gun with a full salvo. The problem is they're only used once. Whether this is indicitive of them being drooling idiots or not is up to you.

-The Daedalus maneuver is just flat out stupid, without character shielding making up for its deficiencies. Even in series Kamjin showed the fools part of why using Age of the Galley naval tactics was a bad idea. No enemy ship should ever be allowed that close to your vessel.

-It's barrier systems give it enhanced survivability. Although mere battle pods showed that ability to take her out of action if they would have just pressed the attack.

-Pre-rebuild the Macross has no fold drives, which makes it vulnerable with proper tactics to a ship that does.

Due to the secondary batteries basically being off-line a task force on Zentradi vessels of equivalent tonnage/volume would have been able to take it apart if used intelligently. The Zentradi never were particularly intelligent though.