Interesting Commentary On The New Macross Dvds

[Mr March]

I don't know how many of my fellow MW members frequent AnimeNation, but I try to stay current with their fantastic "Ask John" section. The section is basically an letter-to-the-editor style comment on anime-related subjects. One such article last month discussed a topic dealing with ADV and the new Macross. I hope many of you will find his comments worth reading.

Taken from AnimeNation.net

Question:

Do you think that the American anime distributon companies are out of sync of what anime fans want to see come over Stateside? For example, ADV is spending money for a full re-release with a new English track for Macross. While I'm a Macross fan, I think it's a huge waste of money since vintage anime doesn't sell well in the States and it would've been better as a subtitled-only thinpack. Let's not get into the mass of subpar anime that they bring over here. However, there's plenty of great anime to choose from like Honey & Clover and Gakuen Alice that aren't even lincensed yet. And when they do, it'll be too "old" for anyone to care about buying it. What's your opinion?

Answer:

I do think that America's primary anime distributors, by which I mean companies that started primarily to import and translate anime, are aware of the tastes and preferences of America's core anime fan community. Licensors on the fringe of America's core anime industry such as 4Kids Entertainment, Sony, Dreamworks, and Disney operate on their own internal policies. 4Kids targets the mainstream audience to the exclusion of hardcore fans. Disney seeks to satisfy both mainstream and hardcore fans. Dreamworks seems to focus on faithful and respectful presentation of anime regardless of marketability. The primary American anime distribution industry typified by distributors including Bandai, Geneon, and FUNimation target their releases and marketing primarily at America's fan community, and, I think, are conscious and in tune with America's anime fan community. However, being aware of consumer demand doesn't always mean that a business will be able to respond to that demand. And what American fans perceive as demand may, in fact, be very skewed by a limited perspective.

The core American anime distribution industry has to be cognizant of changes and trends in the fan community in order to stay competitive and profitable. No American distributor consistently licenses and releases titles that fail to sell. However, what gets licensed is influenced by more than just its American market potential. Yours is not the first criticism I've heard about AD Vision's decision to re-market the Macross television series. There's probably several reasons behind AD Vision's decision to license and dub the show. ADV may not have the funds necessary to license new, high profile titles. Macross may have been an easy and inexpensive license to acquire, and it may have been a title that ADV employees themselves wanted to work with. Adding a new English dub may seem like an excessive expenditure, but from a corporate perspective, a dub may have been a vital necessity. Considering that AD Vision's release was basically just a re-packaged version of AnimEigo's restored version of the show, an English dub was vitally necessary to add new attention-grabbing novelty to the title. Regarding AD Vision's "mass of sub par anime," the company's traditional policy seems to have been one of purposely trying to saturate the market in order to become the distributor with the biggest catalog and the most market penetration. However, that policy of spreading themselves wide but thin may have resulted in AD Vision oversaturating and diluting its own market, and expending its resources on bulk rather than quality, leaving the company now forced to resort to cheaper, older licenses.

Contrary to common complaints from many American anime fans who like to make broad generalizations about anime, there are indeed many excellent shows available in Japan which have not been licensed for American release, such as Honey & Clover and Gakuen Alice. However, America's consumer market for anime isn't always directed by interest in quality. The fact that shows like Honey & Clover and Gakuen Alice haven't been licensed for American release may, in fact, prove that America's anime industry is very astutely aware of what American consumers want, and don't want. Hardcore American fans who seek out imported anime and voraciously devour outstanding new shows may not realize that they're actually only a very small minority of American consumers. No matter how devoted they are, a thousand or two thousand hardcore American Gakuen Alice fans aren't enough to make licensing and releasing the show in America profitable.

Geneon has licensed the Hellsing OVA series, Ergo Proxy, and Fate/stay night series because everyone in America's anime industry knows that dark, mature, supernatural and cyberpunk anime is popular with American consumers. FUNimation has licensed the Negima, Tsubasa Chronicle, and xxxHOLiC anime knowing that Ken Akamatsu and CLAMP works are popular among Americans. Representatives of most of America's main anime distributors regularly attend fan conventions and meet fans. And many of the employees of America's anime industry are anime fans themselves. So I do think that America's primary anime industry is conscious and attuned to the preferences and desires of America's fan community, but professional distribution companies often have to make compromises between satisfying hardcore fans and doing what's necessary to achieve financial stability and profit.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Macross is pretty ancient, so nobody will watch it, unless you were a fan to begin with. But if they were to remake it with updated animation, a newer generation would get into it.

Kinda like how some people won't watch black and white movies. They would rather see something new.

Edited April 30, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Zinjo]

Macross is pretty ancient, so nobody will watch it, unless you were a fan to begin with. But if they were to remake it with updated animation, a newer generation would get into it.

Kinda like how some people won't watch black and white movies. They would rather see something new.

395176[/snapback]

Yeah well so is "It's a Wonderful Life"; "Casablanca", "Ghostbusters", "Star Wars IV", "Star Trek", "MASH",Babylon 5, etc... but funny how people just never get tired of those titles...

If it's good it's good! I've seen some damn fine looking "recent" animation and frankly the story sucked and bored me to distraction!

It isn't the "look" of a show that matters as much as what the show is about. If Evangelion had a run of the mill, boring story, it would never have been such a hit as it was, even with it's crisp, shiny new animation techniques.

Would it hurt the franchise to re-animate SDF Macross with modern techniques, not at all, but the problem is that too often when a re-make is done, the directors seem to think that their "vision" could make a perfectly good show, "better" and they are too often self deluted and wrong!

I have yet to see an anime re-make surpass the original.

In this respect, the Japanese film industry suffers from the same delusion the North American industry does. The notion that a classic series could be made "better". This happens in only the rarest of cases and requires a vision that is unique and sophisticated for such a re-work to work. BSG under Ron Moore is a perfect example.

Yet, how many times have we been subjected to sh*t that is supposed to pass itself off as a quality remake so the studios can try to bank on a well known franchise?

I'd support a re-animation only in the event that Kawamori not be given control of the project. I'm not interested in seeing another Mac 7, thank you... Macross Zero, sure!

[Mowe]

You can't remake a classic like Macross TV or DYRL.

The raw energy & talents that went to the making of Macross are just not there anymore. Even if Kawamori & Mikimoto are back to lead the team, it will not be the same. You are likely ended up with boobie valks or characters with pointy noses, I fancy neither .

To keep Macross alive is not to go backward. New story or re-interpretation are better ways to move forward, if they are good enough, the new fans are more likely wanting to discover the original.

Edited April 30, 2006 by Mowe

[Sumdumgai]

The potential of doing harm to a series far outweighs the potential to succesfully bring in new fans with a remake.

I got pulled into the Macross series by watching Macross Plus, then going back to try to watch what was available of Macross, which was unfortunately just Robotech episodes at the time. I'm happy to finally own the Animeigo set.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Remakes don't have to be crap if handled with care. See Batman Begins and DYRL. (essentially an alternate retelling of SWI) Even look to newer versions of cartoons like teenage mutant ninja turtles. Older doesn't automatically mean better.

And for people who are scared: just continue to watch the old. Nothing will stop you getting the older macross DVDs. Look at astroboy as an example. You can still see the older version tv series if you don't like the newer one. Ain't choice nice?

And what about shows like macross plus? You telling me that you wouldn't crap your pants if they could refine some of the mecha battles in a modern tv series to look like what you see at the start of that OVA? (ie when they are fighting those rogue zents. I've seen some nice smooth animation in eureka 7, rahxephon and other mecha shows that I wish could be done for a remade macross.)

The original wasn't perfect. There were mistakes, (disapearing objects) horrible faces (in some of the animefriend eps) and parts that weren't explained to us (who the supervision army were) in enough detail.

You are likely end up boobie valks or characters with pointy noses, I fancy neither

*sighs* That was explained in macross 7 by the fact that the characters themselves were a rock group who wanted to have a fancy and flashy design to get attention while they were up there in space as everyone watched them. As for pointy noses, yeah I can agree with that. I really didn't like that in macross plus everyone's face looked the same.

Edited April 30, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[kensei]

Macross is pretty ancient, so nobody will watch it, unless you were a fan to begin with. But if they were to remake it with updated animation, a newer generation would get into it.

Kinda like how some people won't watch black and white movies. They would rather see something new.

395176[/snapback]

it would be appreciated if you could give us an example of movies that were in black and white that were successful remakes. I would like some hope that Macross could be remade and appealing to a new generation of fans.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

It's not the point. I agree that the old is a quality show. Just that a remake doesn't necessarily have to be bad. It could in fact improve on something that has gone before.

It's not the quality reasons why an anime fan won't watch something, just that they might be too young and impatient to bother about wanting to see it because they are too busy watching what's current. (ie little kid who prefers to see gundam seed vs MSG for example) Maybe later they will seek recommendations from others about classic series, do some more research, but given it is something 20+ years in the past, can you blame them?

Sorry didn't mean to derail the thread.

Edited April 30, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[JB0]

It isn't the "look" of a show that matters as much as what the show is about.  If Evangelion had a run of the mill, boring story, it would never have been such a hit as it was, even with it's crisp, shiny new animation techniques.

You mean like Gundam Wing?

Hell, people were complaining about how bad Gundam Seed Destiny was WHILE they were watching it.

"Man, Destiny sure sucks. This is the worst show I've ever watched. ALL RIGHT! A NEW EPISODE IS OUT! "

Just because a show is poorly written doesn't mean it won't do well.

Edited April 30, 2006 by JB0

[azrael]

Remakes don't have to be crap if handled with care. See Batman Begins and DYRL.

395211[/snapback]

Batman Begains wasn't a remake. What they were doing was restarting the franchise. They didn't throw it out of what was already done in the current movies (yet), they just took it back to the beginning to see how it all started. Remaking would mean redoing the original work, with modern flair. King Kong (Peter Jackson's) was a remake. Love Affair was a remake of An Affair to Remember, Planet of the Apes etc.....

So the questions that come is

-How is Roy going to die this time? He's been shot at, crushed and blow up....

-How are Max and Milia going to meet this time?

-blah blah blah...

Hell, people were complaining about how bad Gundam Seed Destiny was WHILE they were watching it.

"Man, Destiny sure sucks. This is the worst show I've ever watched. ALL RIGHT! A NEW EPISODE IS OUT! "

Just because a show is poorly written doesn't mean it won't do well.

It seems as long as Kawamori is in control, he never wants to do what Sunrise does to Gundam (i.e. throw the same situation out every season).

The problem is, no one wants to sit there and come up with a new storyline. Everybody and their mother wants to rehash ideas over and over adding their own little touches here and there and it makes money....cuz no one wants to watch a dated show anymore. Hell, I have Masked Rider: The First sitting on my hard drive...do I have any intention of watching the original series? No. I really don't feel like watching the series.

[MjrMisaHayase]

Remakes don't have to be crap if handled with care. See Batman Begins and DYRL.

395211[/snapback]

Batman Begains wasn't a remake. What they were doing was restarting the franchise. They didn't throw it out of what was already done in the current movies (yet), they just took it back to the beginning to see how it all started. Remaking would mean redoing the original work, with modern flair. King Kong (Peter Jackson's) was a remake. Love Affair was a remake of An Affair to Remember, Planet of the Apes etc.....

Same thing applies to Superman Returns, but they're jumpstarting the sequels instead.

[JB0]

Hell, people were complaining about how bad Gundam Seed Destiny was WHILE they were watching it.

"Man, Destiny sure sucks. This is the worst show I've ever watched. ALL RIGHT! A NEW EPISODE IS OUT! "

Just because a show is poorly written doesn't mean it won't do well.

It seems as long as Kawamori is in control, he never wants to do what Sunrise does to Gundam (i.e. throw the same situation out every season).

Thank goodness.

The problem is, no one wants to sit there and come up with a new storyline. Everybody and their mother wants to rehash ideas over and over adding their own little touches here and there and it makes money....cuz no one wants to watch a dated show anymore.

It's more than laziness.

The guys calling the shots don't know WHY the successful stories are successful. As far as the suits can tell, it's just another movie/TV show/cartoon/game/whatever.

So when something succeeds, they don't ask "What is it that made this good?" Instead, they try to copy the entire thing and use it as a generic formula to stuff other characters into.

And then when they miss the important parts and their formulaic drivel fails, they conclude that the whole concept was just a fad that ran it's course.

You can see this happening in US cinema now. Everyone's obsessed with polygon animation.

Toy Story, Shrek, and company did amazingly well. And the people calling the shots concluded it was because they were CG, and proceeded to flood the market with bad CG movies. They can't figure out why they aren't seeing the success that Pixar and Dreamworks have, and I think we're approaching the end stage, where they conclude the fad has run it's course. Depends on how well Pixar does now that they're owned by Disney.

(interesting trivia: Pixar WANTED to do The Incredibles in a style similar to the modern Batman cartoons. Disney vetoed it because they were sure they needed the CG look)

There's also another kind of formulizing. It goes in the opposite direction, with similar results.

They aren't sure why a story was successful, as with formula 1. So when they do the sequel/remake they take the characters and stuff them into an existing formula.

Aliens is a good example. It was a fun movie, but they forced the original Alien premise into a standard sci-fi action formula, even though the original was a horror movie, because that was what was cool at the time.

[Phalanx]

If you ask me, IMHO, remakes sometimes are pointless or really worth the time and effort that depends on how it's made. If it's done good it maybe worth but if it's done bad it was pointless and a complete waste of time, money and effort. Anyways, isn't a little to early to do a remake of a Macross? I mean I really wouldn't want to see a remake of it right now even though I always envisoned what a hitherto remake of the show would be like with fresh crisp animation, 3-D rendered VF-1's and other mecha.

I think a remake of it should be done 40 to 80 years after the original because it seems like a perfect time period to do so since you have more than enough time to think of fresh and creative ideas to make a remake surpass the original. To back this up, I'll use the example of the King Kong remake. It came out 70 years after the original and it was a success and what made the remake so unique and successful was that Peter Jackson added his own plot and other creative content like the dino island to make his interpretation more interesting than the first. The same with other examples Azrael stated earlier.

[KingNor]

JBO:

I made that exact same point about the ALIEN franchise.

they made a great horror movie..

then a great action movie

then a dozen bad action movies..

what they NEEDED to do was follow the progression:

horror, action, courtroom drama.

Ripley vs. the Company.

could have been great.

[JB0]

JBO:

I made that exact same point about the ALIEN franchise.

they made a great horror movie..

then a great action movie

then a dozen bad action movies..

what they NEEDED to do was follow the progression:

horror, action, courtroom drama.

Ripley vs. the Company.

could have been great.

395362[/snapback]

"Mister Facehugger, did you in fact rape Miss Ripley's face?"

"SKREE!!!!!"

"No further questions, your honor."

[MjrMisaHayase]

JBO:

I made that exact same point about the ALIEN franchise.

they made a great horror movie..

then a great action movie

then a dozen bad action movies..

what they NEEDED to do was follow the progression:

horror, action, courtroom drama.

Ripley vs. the Company.

could have been great.

395362[/snapback]

"Mister Facehugger, did you in fact rape Miss Ripley's face?"

"SKREE!!!!!"

"No further questions, your honor."

395376[/snapback]

You won't see that on Law and Order (and it's spinoffs) or any courtroom drama series anytime soon.

[Mr March]

My poor thread

[JB0]

You won't see that on Law and Order (and it's spinoffs) or any courtroom drama series anytime soon.     

395382[/snapback]

Too hot for TV.

[azrael]

My poor thread

395384[/snapback]

You knew someone would bring out these comments, so you started it....

I guess you could say Macross is unique since very few people have tried to copy it's style (It's a parody of Gundam and all those other mech shows at the time). The market calls for "sub-par" anime because this is what people want. Everybody wants what's current and has all that. Very few people want the oldies since that is what it is, old. Then some comes along and decides to reimage the original deal by remaking it. Like JB0 said, you lose some of the magic of the original series. But in the end, what does the market want? They want new animation, new sounds, new VFX, all the flash and glitter. All the modern stuff. So compaines follow the market, which is how they'll make money. If people really don't want Macross...the market will say so. If ADV got the license for cheap, then that kinda says something about Macross and its potential. If someone does remake Macross with all the modern bells and whistles...what then? It will probably make money but is the something the market will want?

Okay...I'm tempted to move this thread....we seem to be all over the place here....I'll probably deal with it in the morning but if anybody moves, be my guest....

[JB0]

If ADV got the license for cheap, then that kinda says something about Macross and its potential.

I thought it meant ADV was good friends with HG.

If I recall, Animeigo was explicitly denied an extension of their sublicense, which is a fairly good indication of favoritism.

...

That or I'm just scraping some debris off the rumor mill again.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Aliens is a good example. It was a fun movie, but they forced the original Alien premise into a standard sci-fi action formula, even though the original was a horror movie, because that was what was cool at the time.

I would argue that aliens is still horror, but unlike the first which was horror/science fiction, this was horror/science fiction/war. I still consider aliens a horror movie but close to a war movie in that people died, there was no glorifying of death or a "hero". Action to me suggests "stunts". When I think action: I think rambo, diehard, and commando and terminator 2.

If ripley started kicking the aliens around using fancy moves like the guy in Pitch black, then I would call it an action movie.

Sure there were guns and explosions and the typical stuff you might see in an action movie. But those weapons were merely to show that in a science fiction movie with a setting in space, we have newer more high tech futuristic toys to play with. They were required to give the feeling of humans wanting to get 'revenge' on the alien. In no way was it presented as "here comes the hero to save us" like mad max, or robocop. There was no one fighting for justice and beating down a bad guy. I think it is wrong to say it was an action movie.

And I don't think it was 'trying to be cool' the way something like starship troopers movie was. I was as horrified in aliens (if not more than alien) at the sight of groups of them closing in on the marines who had limited amounts of ammo, no supplies, limited time, and gruesome deaths. (being cocooned and having your chest burst open)

Nope it was not an 'action' movie. There were no real big one-liners or flashy death moves or comedic deaths poking fun at the people that are going to be killed. It was horror. The tone was serious, and the twists and surprises had you shitting your pants and at the edge of your seat right until the end. For some people thier scairest horror movie was "Jaws", for me it was aliens. Because it felt like a realistic depiction of a futuristic war. At no point when watching aliens did I think the violence was merely put there "to be cool", but to genuinely make you scared. Whatever action was there, was done in a non-heroic way: no single hero taking on the odds and easily coming out of it ok riding off into the sunset. More often than not people were dying and being slaughtered barely able to survive, and just happy to come out alive, more like a real war.

By breaking this formula, aliens brought something new to the table to make it even better than the original it was based on. Giving us a bigger badder threat (queen alien), showing something a bit different (humans with proper weapons this time with a bit more knowledge) and a constant sense of fear even with weapons. (ripley goes from being traumatised in the beginning with nightmares, to being confident due to the marines explaining how thier superior tech will make everything ok, ..to being frightened again after everything goes bad and the humans suffer heavy casualties, low morale after getting thier ass kicked, and panicking that they are doomed to die when all of thier confidence is taken from them and they are left isolated and alone.)

Edited May 1, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[thegunny]

If the funds were available I'd rather see the story finished properly than remade. As was pointed out, how many ways can you kill Roy.

There are so many stories to tie up and progress with that remaking the series IMHO doesn't make any sense.

I've only just discovered the intricacies of Macross (too busy being a macho jock in my younger days) and I would love to see a bit more effort put into closing the story.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Well I was kinda unsatisfied with the ending in SDF:Macross the same way I was kinda of unsatisfied with the ending in Macross Zero. (ie roy didn't beat the guy using his skill, and similarly in the original, minmay is left pretending she is happy that she lost the guy, so now she can't put her heart into her songs because she isn't in love. Just a sad girl who dies miserably because the ship she was on is lost, kind of like the sinking of the titanic.)

With 50 eps they might be able to tell the "true" story, before it had to be shortened and then lengthened, flesh out the characters, tell us what happened after SW I, and maybe even add elements from DYRL. (show the scientists invesitagting the ASS1 crash, show flashbacks of the wars on earth after this, the undersea ruins and the constant racing between the anti-un for possesion of this info, show roys change from being against wars and his gradual (or sudden) change in attitude, maybe add more detail about who the supervision army were for people who have not read the compendium. etc Stuff that basically you can't go into enough detail in from an OVA. I think I wouldn't mind seeing global and admiral hayes in thier younger days for example. And maybe have global be more perverted like was mentioned in the commentary on the animeigo dvds )

Edited May 1, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[bsu legato]

So long story short, we're not the only people in anime fandom giving the ADV Macross re-release the big ole' "eye roll" emoticon.

Hey HG! When are we getting that Mospeada dub already? You know, the one that you told us wouldn't happen, just like the Macross dub wouldn't happen?

*deafening silence*

Yeah, I thought so.

[azrael]

If ADV got the license for cheap, then that kinda says something about Macross and its potential.

I thought it meant ADV was good friends with HG.

If I recall, Animeigo was explicitly denied an extension of their sublicense, which is a fairly good indication of favoritism.

...

That or I'm just scraping some debris off the rumor mill again.

395395[/snapback]

It probably was favoritism, I'm not going to deny that.

[Zinjo]

Well I was kinda unsatisfied with the ending in SDF:Macross the same way I was kinda of unsatisfied with the ending in Macross Zero. (ie roy didn't beat the guy using his skill, and similarly in the original, minmay is left pretending she is happy that she lost the guy, so now she can't put her heart into her songs because she isn't in love. Just a sad girl who dies miserably because the ship she was on is lost, kind of like the sinking of the titanic.)

With 50 eps they might be able to tell the "true" story, before it had to be shortened and then lengthened, flesh out the characters, tell us what happened after SW I, and maybe even add elements from DYRL. (show the scientists invesitagting the ASS1 crash, show flashbacks of the wars on earth after this, the undersea ruins and the constant racing between the anti-un for possesion of this info, show roys change from being against wars and his gradual (or sudden) change in attitude, maybe add more detail about who the supervision army were for people who have not read the compendium. etc Stuff that basically you can't go into enough detail in from an OVA. I think I wouldn't mind seeing global and admiral hayes in thier younger days for example. And maybe have global be more perverted like was mentioned in the commentary on the animeigo dvds )

395420[/snapback]

I don't think SDF: Macross needs 50 eps. Mac 7 didn't, so why would the original.

40 Eps maybe. I agree that there are story threads that are unfinished in SDF and I too would like to see several story elements from DYRL brought into the series proper.

However, going back to the events between the crash and the opening episode is another series entirely (a sequel to Macross Zero maybe!).

For a re-animation to be able to retain the "magic" of the original, the "key" people from Tatsunoko as well as Studio Nue need to collaborate again on it.

To let SK have control of that project will only result in another Macross 7 and I for one don't want that! Let's not forget SK DID NOT write SDF Macross, he was the creator, Valk designer and valk animation director. That is all!

The final produced show can be credited directly to director Noboru Ishiguro, with the story crafted by Ken'ichi Matsuzaki, Noboru Ishiguro & Sukehiro Tomita.

Essentially if a person wants to know what the vision of the Mac universe was according to the original writing team's vision, see Macross II. If you want to see what the universe is according to Kawamori see Macross Plus, et al.

Anyway, I would love to see what Satelight could do with the battles in SDF Macross! However, I would rather live without it, if that means bastardizing the saga that we've all come to love.

........................

On the topic of studio suits, it has been said by many of the "old guard" actors and directors that ever since corporations have taken over the studios, film making has lost it's inventiveness and artistry.

It's all about methodology and demographics. There is no surprise that the biggest hits in entertainment are the indie / small productions, whether it be cable TV, films or music. THAT is where all the original ideas are coming from, because the suits who have degrees in commerce and business have no idea how to "produce" quality, innovative entertainment. They are consumers like the rest of us.

[Mr March]

Well, I'm going to join in then.

I think a remake may be desirable simply because SDF Macross represents the best and grandest of the Macross franchise to many fans. A proper remake could kickstart the franchise with a new generation of fans. Granted, Macross has never been so much about the franchise so much as it has been about telling a story with some substance. I'm sure that sort of story is the reason many of us like Macross so much.

It goes without saying that the style, feel, and tone of the original Macross - or "magic" if you will - would no be duplicated with a remake. I don't think it should be. So much of entertainment and art comes from timing. One of the reasons much of our favorite entertainment and art appeals to us is the necessity of it's creation. Writers very often feel the need to tell stories based on a perceived lack of this tale being told in popular culture or that the time has come again for a style of story that fell out of favor with previous generations. Even the non-writers of us understand this. Just look at all the great stories you enjoy from your youth yet you don't see any modern reiterations of these tales. We all wish more would be made of some great stories of the past that have really great potential.

I think Macross would do well as a totally reimagined work of fiction, one which changes many of the fundamentals most fans hold as sacred. The theme of war and love would work well, as most operas function well from this framework. But the sequence of events and plot points should be changed to a more modern style. It also goes without saying that the old VF-1 valkyrie just wouldn't "fly" (hehehe) to modern audiences, despite the longevity of the design.

Naturally, this is all just masterbation, as I'm sure a project like this will never happen. Anyway, that's my thoughts on the subject.

[JB0]

Aliens is a good example. It was a fun movie, but they forced the original Alien premise into a standard sci-fi action formula, even though the original was a horror movie, because that was what was cool at the time.

I would argue that aliens is still horror, but unlike the first which was horror/science fiction, this was horror/science fiction/war. I still consider aliens a horror movie but close to a war movie in that people died, there was no glorifying of death or a "hero". Action to me suggests "stunts". When I think action: I think rambo, diehard, and commando and terminator 2.

Action to me suggests lost of gunplay OR stunts. Aliens had lots of gunplay.

If ripley started kicking the aliens around using fancy moves like the guy in Pitch black, then I would call it an action movie.

That'd just be Hollywood drivel. It's quite possible to do an action movie without ripping off Jackie Chan and The Matrix.

Sure there were guns and explosions and the typical stuff you might see in an action movie. But those weapons were merely to show that in a science fiction movie with a setting in space, we have newer more high tech futuristic toys to play with. They were required to give the feeling of humans wanting to get 'revenge' on the alien. In no way was it presented as "here comes the hero to save us" like mad max, or robocop. There was no one fighting for justice and beating down a bad guy. I think it is wrong to say it was an action movie.

I clearly use a broader definition of action.

Nope it was not an 'action' movie. There were no real big one-liners or flashy death moves or comedic deaths poking fun at the people that are going to be killed. It was horror. The tone was serious, and the twists and surprises had you shitting your pants and at the edge of your seat right until the end.

I'm still not seeing anything that prevents it from being an action movie, though I AM seeing stuff that prevents it from being a generic drivel action movie.

Whatever action was there, was done in a non-heroic way: no single hero taking on the odds and easily coming out of it ok riding off into the sunset.

I seem to recall Ripley running into the alien hive alone to rescue Newt, unloading a machine gun, grenade launcher, AND flamethrower into the queen's nursery, then attacking the queen with a forklift and shoving a blowtorch in it's face before throwing it out an airlock.

Maybe we watched diffrent versions.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

True there was action in it but the humans were victims and the aliens were the 'hunters' for a majority of the time. (like the dinos in jurrassic park)

Sort of like how arnie did his thing at the start of predator but was easily outmatched when face to face. It was still horror because of the way the predator could rip a body with its bare hands and take your skull as a trophy or skin the victim alive. Aliens had that level of horror that it would be more accurate to call it science-fiction/horror/war

sci fi: for the futuristic setting

horror: because of all the deaths (people being ripped in half by the queen, cocooned, acid melting thier face, etc)

war: its really war movie set in space

If it was an action movie, they would not present a scary atmoshpere with creepy music and theme. It would be ripley kicking peoples asses like that guy in Pitch Black, with hip music playing in the background, attitude, (ie think of the evil dead movies which duke 3d rips off) and lots of violence for violence sake because this is the entertaining part. (ie a fight scene in punisher vs a gruesome death in aliens)

And yes lots of fancy finishing moves just to be commerical and be cool for the comicbook people. No where do you see ripley kicking the queen's butt in a way that suggests she fighting for justice, more like she is fighting to survive or protect something and get away from the damn thing because she is scared shitless of it and has no choices. I still think aliens is horror, and could easily be compared to something like hellraiser in terms of "shitting my pants" factor.

Constrast this to say lethal weapon 1 where Riggs offers to have a one-on-one fight with the bad guy just to prove whos got bigger balls. Totally different tone..Ripley showed courage sure, but most of the violence was commited by the alien because they are the "monster" in the movie. Just because the humans came in with weapons doesn't necessarily mean the movie is not horror. I think the added use of the marines actually made the movie even scarier because it gives them an excuse to show how intelligent the beasts are and how they can still be a big threat even when humans come with weapons.

Examples: say you are being surrounded by five of these things and they are all swarming you at once, and you have to reload? If even one of those things gets close range, you are farted because of the acid blood. It is still very scary and with limited ammo, there is lots of tension. It's not like you can use all the weapons at close range anyway. (grenades for example)

At some point, even jaws had the main character use a gun to protect himself and kill the shark. But you wouldn't exactly say you were laughing or cheering through the movie pumping your arm in the air for the majority of the time. (more like freaked out)

Edited May 2, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[JB0]

I never really counted Jurassic Park as a horror movie, either.

You make some good arguments, though. How about we file it in a hybrid action-horror genre? I still think it's easily filed as action, but it DOES have more horror elements than I was initially giving it credit for.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Fair enough. I think that the inclusion of action is enough for me to say that. I guess like the terminator it depends on how you saw or interpret the movie. Terminator could be seen as pure action, but I think the first felt like horror because of the way sarah was being hunted down by a crazed stalker/serial killer who we only confirm is just a robot till the end. Lots of suspense and thrilling action scenes, and very little sci-fi apart from some flashbacks. (since everything is taking place in the present and we don't get to see the future)

But as far as I'm concerned if you were to exchange the Terminator with chucky from child's play it wouldn't change that the characters are running away from a 'monster' just to survive. (ie like in predator) The way I interpret is this: if the bad guy is like the "star" of the franchise (like freddy from nightmare on elm street or pinhead from hellraiser) as much as the victims it preys on, then it could easily be interpreted that the monsters/aliens/shark/dinosaur/giant spider etc and the fear we get from them, makes it horror for most people. ie we go to see them for the express purpose of being scared or to poo our pants a bit like how people go on a scary ride. Like john carpenter's "The Thing", you could interpret the movie as science fiction or horror or a hybrid.

But "the thing" and aliens, are so much darker in tone to something pure action like Independance day or a ghost busters. In ID4 no real horror is seen. The tone is lighter. The good guys whup the bad guys butts, and you are not sickened by what you see (ie people's body mutilated or skinned, or have thier spinal cord ripped from thier corpse) or frightened in the same way you are in aliens. (which also has some action by nature of the inclusion of weapons - the scariness is still very much there and like in many horror all the characters are like the cannon fodder to be killed/eaten/mutilated/die in painful ways by the "star", which in this case is the monster or alien or popular raptor/shark or demonic being who relishes in seeing you suffering)

Macross DVDs are great, eh?

Edited May 2, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[JB0]

SUSPENSE!

That's the genre! Sort of like horror, but not as "bad." More people live, the bad guy isn't quite as scary, etc.

And yeah, those Macross DVDs are awesome. I set my box on top of an altar I carved out of obsidian, and I worship it nightly.

[Mr March]

*snip*

Macross DVDs are great, eh?

395634[/snapback]

Charming

[KingNor]

You know, most anime fans remind me alot of MTV and the hiphop/techno music croud.

with hiphop and techno it seems like the "best" songs also happen to be the "new" songs. ESPECIALLY with techno.

I mean there IS nuance and all that but you get alot of "boom boom boom boom, tweeter tweeter tweeter tweeter"

And when you mix it with MTV you can see that the mainstream public is less intrested in "good" stuff and more intrested in "anything new" regardless of quality. its just another thing to stare at and burn time.

I think alot of anime fans are fans for the "woah thats rad, daaaaaoooommmmnn" factor and much much less for the story quality/characters etc.

I think thats why theres so much of a following for Gundam, DBZ, Naruto and any other show that churns out episode after episode.

Most people just want to see a new robot, a new fight, a new panty shot, a new female character that MIGHT show a nipple, a new uber cute critter side kick or what ever and alot of the shows above provide that sort of "endless new" that people are looking for.

I guess the trade off is that some shows are made so you can watch them repeatedly and get something each time, and others are made so you only have to watch them once and you can continnue to progress the story.

[Mr March]

*snip*

I think alot of anime fans are fans for the "woah thats rad, daaaaaoooommmmnn" factor and much much less for the story quality/characters etc.

I think thats why theres so much of a following for Gundam, DBZ, Naruto and any other show that churns out episode after episode.

Most people just want to see a new robot, a new fight, a new panty shot, a new female character that MIGHT show a nipple, a new uber cute critter side kick or what ever and alot of the shows above provide that sort of "endless new" that people are looking for.

I guess the trade off is that some shows are made so you can watch them repeatedly and get something each time, and others are made so you only have to watch them once and you can continnue to progress the story.

396715[/snapback]

That's quite an oversimplification. There are anime fans who watch anime for MANY different reasons. To say most of us act in such a shallow way is a disservice, especially since none of my friends who watch anime do so for a reason like a "new product" fetish.

Granted, I do know the type of fan/person you're talking about. These consumers aren't so much attracted to the quality of anime as much the spectacle of anime itself. The style of cinema used in anime, the colors, the way in which anime achieves drama, the style of the artwork, and the unusual sounds/music may all appeal to a fans/consumers taste and that may be enough. Such shallow fans/consumers enjoy different anime more for the sake of difference rather than any semblance of quality. It's-new-and-unusual translates to it-must-be-good for these people.

However, those people are not just anime fans. You find thse types of people in all areas of popular and consumer culture (film, music, etc). Luckily, they are in the minority and they constitute a smaller portion of the consumer market than you might think. Anime, like anything else commercial, has to produce a certain level of acceptable quality in order to be truely successful. At their core, many anime shows that fans such as yourself deride for overexposure and being overrated do possess a stand out quality which I beleive is the PRIMARY reason why most fans of that anime flocked to embrace it. Some substantive aspect seperates the big anime franchises from the less successful contempraries, which at first glance look very much the same.

There is always worth to take into account as well. Not all standout anime that becomes successful is meant to endure. Some extremely popular anime has a very short product life, as do some other consumer products. The 1990's rock band Hootie and The Blowfish is a very poignant example of such product in the music industry that enjoyed widespread success that lasted for a very short time.