Palladium Books Going Under

[wolfx]

http://forums.palladium-megaverse.com/view...er=asc&&start=0

Known to most as the people who brought to you the Robotech RPG rules as well as other notable RPG systems namely RIFTS, is having some financial trouble.

Something happened within Palladium along the lines of "treachery" but nothing beyond that is explained. They have resorted to asking help from fans.

[jenius]

Dude, Kevin needs to write a book after this whole legal mess settles and describe this "treachery" as I, and I'm sure many others, am genuinely intrigued! Honestly, I pick on people all the time for using the RPG statistics as anything meaningful in relation to the cartoons it is derived from but that doesn't mean I didn't enjoy leafing through my own copies of those books. Even when the art seemed off to me I enjoyed it for being someone else's perspective on it. As an accountant who has seen many horrible things happen to intelligent companies my heart really goes out to this group. I hate to see someone forced ot sell their prized possessions, I hate to see someone forced to go public with their dirty laundry, but I very much respect his love for his craft enough to do both.

Good luck to the crew at Palladium. I see RT.com has a new poll for members about this very situation.

[Mr March]

Many, many years ago when I gamed on pen and paper, I found the Palladium games quite enjoyable. Never was a huge fan, but the rules system was fun and I liked the creativity that went into many of their products. As a writer, some of the books were worth reading simply based on the concept of the fantasy/science fiction setting.

[yellowlightman]

When I first read this news I was saddened, as much as I hate Palladium's system (easily the worst big-name RPG system there is) there was a time many years ago I really adored Palladium.

After reading some information about Palladium (like this) I no longer have any pity for them. Kevin runs Palladium like it's 1995, refusing to do any decent typographical layouts (their stuff isn't even laid out on computers, for chrissakes) and refusing to use email. Compounded with a general lack of listening to their fans (update our system? never! release PDFs of old releases? never! etc) and really poor business choices (a game for the N-gage? gimme a break). Theft and embezzlement aside, Palladium's poor state is largely due to Kevin's own negligence and poor management.

If he was smart he'd stop being so damned full of himself and his stupid system, release a D20 version of Rifts and get some money. Instead he offers a print by a very lackluster artist (himself) and thinks that might change things. It won't. Throwing money at Palladium at this point is a bandaid, it will not stop their long-term financial troubles, it will not stop Palladium from being a victim of horrible management. The only thing it will do is prove to Kevin and his cronies that they can continue to keep pounding their loyal fanbase in the ass and face no consequences.

Palladium closing down? Good riddance.

[Guest Bromgrev]

There's clearly a lot more to this than meets the eye. For a slightly less KS-centred take on the situation, take a look at the Steve Jackson Games forum and RPGnet:

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=15269

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=258760

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=259184

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=259033

I hope Palladium makes it through this, but there are clearly problems deeper than "a betrayal of trust" involved when one of the market leaders is in danger of going under. The situation has been ongoing since 2004, so something must have been going wrong with the company itself.

I bear KS no ill-will, but his personal style has certainly not been an asset for the company with regard to their writers, as well as the modern RPG market in general. I have never been a fan of the Palladium system, and neither it nor the presentation has kept up with changes in the marketplace.

Interesting fact discovered through this (you may already know): it seems the Robotech RPG license reverted to HG. Of course that means Robotech (or Macross) RPG is dead, because HG won't sell it again for less than 10 times what it's worth.

[Skull Leader]

I supported RIFTS and a number of other palladium games for a while. I'd CONSIDER giving him money if he'd come clean on the situation.

[Lynx7725]

I hate to have to say this because it really makes me look like a heartless b@stard... but:

1. Does Palladium put out quality product that I want to buy?
   
2. If Palladium goes, what does that mean to the industry in objective terms?
   

For (1), I hadn't purchased a Palladium product in years. I might get some old Robotech RPGs just to round out the set I had, but even that is so low on my list it's... below sea level.

For (2), I can't see how it would hurt. The only thing I can think of is that it denies new players an entry-level, affordable RPG, which does hurt the industry as a whole.

Given the above, I can't really justify to myself to purchase the item from Palladium. The jury is still out though.

[yellowlightman]

Interesting fact discovered through this (you may already know): it seems the Robotech RPG license reverted to HG. Of course that means Robotech (or Macross) RPG is dead, because HG won't sell it again for less than 10 times what it's worth.

393248[/snapback]

Funny thing is that your first link to the SJGames message board mentions some fan's wishes there would be a GURPS Robotech. In fact, SJ Games almost did get the Robotech license back in the 80's but the negotiations fell through and Palladium picked them up.

That said, the Robotech RPG is a wreck, and I can think of a number of superior systems out there that would do it (or any anime title) far more justice.

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

I always thought Palladium sucked. Same rules/skills/layout/everything rehashed 6000 times for every setting from ninjas to superheroes to fantasy to mecha to james bond.

The robotech RPG book was prized by me only because it contained a lot of original Japanese artwork.

[Hurin]

The guy could have at least painted the thing before offering it up for sale for $50 each!

Edit: Linkage.

Edited April 22, 2006 by Hurin

[JsARCLIGHT]

Being a businessman myself there are two types of business opportunity I get presented with a lot: growth funds and bailouts. Growth funds are when a young, struggling company comes to you and asks for an investment or donation so they can grow and become something bigger and better. A bailout is when an exsisting company is failing due to one issue or another and asks for an investment or donation to stay afloat.

Business wise you NEVER EVER give in to the bailout offer. You at least stand a 50/50 chance of benefiting being an angel investor in an up and commer but when you dump funds into, let's face it, a dying company you are throwing your money away.

The business world is like nature... only the strong, adept and most of all lucky survive. Some businesses deserve to die while some do not... but the truth is that small business is a gamble. Sometimes that gamble pays off and other times it does not. Palladium needs to either restructure, abandon their current business model and start over or just wave goodbye as they sink beneath the waves. They obviously are doing something wrong if they are going to fans to bail them out. "Trechery" aside, my guess is KS still holds the rights to his designs, system and books as well as the controlling interest in his company. My advice is to pull up the tents, dissolve the current company and restart. Hell, governmental tax code benefits him in a situation where his business is crumbling.

Then again some people are not born businessmen. Just look at the massive graveyard of dead small time comic book and other nerd interest companies. Business is a cruel world and it takes a shark to swim these waters successfully. I wish them the best but I strongly advise their "fans" to let them die rather than keep scooping the water out of the boat.

[yellowlightman]

The robotech RPG book was prized by me only because it contained a lot of original Japanese artwork.

393306[/snapback]

It did? You must have got a special version then.

[Roy Focker]

Well can't say I'll miss them even I followed them for a time. A few books in progress did catch my eye but those projects were canned and just more Rifts and Rifts. I don't for Rifts.

Fan money to bail them out. How is that possible? What keeps them a float for another few months? Gives them money to release some more titles? What if no one wants those titles?

Sure it a shame that people might lose their jobs but if Palladium is so far down in the gutter how is a few hand outs really going to help?

[danth]

The robotech RPG book was prized by me only because it contained a lot of original Japanese artwork.

393306[/snapback]

It did? You must have got a special version then.

393328[/snapback]

He's talking about the official lineart. It's in there.

And I agree with everything you say about Palladium. Good riddance.

[Ginrai]

REF Field Guide especially has a -ton- of Mospeada line art.

[azrael]

Being a businessman myself there are two types of business opportunity I get presented with a lot: growth funds and bailouts. Growth funds are when a young, struggling company comes to you and asks for an investment or donation so they can grow and become something bigger and better. A bailout is when an exsisting company is failing due to one issue or another and asks for an investment or donation to stay afloat.

Business wise you NEVER EVER give in to the bailout offer. You at least stand a 50/50 chance of benefiting being an angel investor in an up and commer but when you dump funds into, let's face it, a dying company you are throwing your money away.

*snip* ...

393321[/snapback]

I'm tempted to say perhaps he should file for bankruptcy if this sounds like a bailout, but I'm not sure if his case would apply.

If fans want to keep him alive, perhaps they should examine if it's worth to keep this boat from sinking.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

but why are they dying? poor sales from lack of interest or poor management?

Edited April 23, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Lynx7725]

Only insiders can say for sure, and the speculation can be left at RPG.net...

As a consumer, what I can say is that the last few years had seen PB releasing products which fails to interest me, and generally poor brand promotion. Heck, my LGS doesn't even bother to stock much of PB and generally doesn't bother to bring in new stuff unless on request. Not that many PB players in my area.

Hindsight committee on PB's Nokia N-gage and film attempts leave me a bit cold really. Sounds to be very speculative attempts which diverted attention from day-to-day running, and coupled with rumours of their internal management style makes me shudder even more.

Honesty prompts me to say that there's generally a decline in interest in RPGs. I heard even WotC is facing issues with its RPG line, and PB doesn't have the deep pockets that WotC have potential access to. "Small" issues such as theft in this environment can torpedo the business, yes, but IMO there are already serious holes in PB's hull already.

Thing is, I don't really mind dropping $50 into the kitty.. had they came out with any interesting product of quality. As it is, I like PB for some of the whacky ideas they can pull out, but searching through the bundles of chaff for the wheat gets tiresome fast.

[JsARCLIGHT]

I'm tempted to say perhaps he should file for bankruptcy if this sounds like a bailout, but I'm not sure if his case would apply.

If fans want to keep him alive, perhaps they should examine if it's worth to keep this boat from sinking.

393422[/snapback]

Corporate bankruptcy law grants certain conditions and relief that definately help certain forms of businesses when in trouble, but he has not been too clear on exactly what his "problem" is. If I where to guess, by his tone and the use of certain words I would say an officer of the company embezzled a good deal of money and then vanished into the ether... or got caught... either way embezzlement means hard money is gone from the coffers. To a small business, this can be catastrophic. No money in the bank means bounced checks, can't pay your rent, utilities or employees.

Under certain forms of Bankruptcy restructuring, what he could accomplish would be aid in putting off paying his creditors... which in the case of this particular company would be people like his landlord, utilities, equipment suppliers and perhaps any business loans he has out. What bankruptcy will NOT cover are his immediate payroll or any outstanding contractual debts (such as unpaid contractors, employee benefits, etc). Businesses generally use funds they would normally put towards bankruptcy covered expenses towards paying their people, thus "keeping afloat" by declairing backruptcy. In other words they screw their debt holders in favor of themselves and their employees. But many forms of corporate bankruptcy come at a high price... usually involving liqidation of assets and redispursment of funds. The .gov will not let you simply give the finger to your debtors and walk away intact. Corporate bankruptcy would also damage his company's credit potential, which would might hinder any future development that needed bank funding.

If they lost all that money out of the bank AND have a serious cashflow problem then bankruptcy will not do much for them... and unless the bulk of his employees are family members or dedicated workers my guess would be they are flying the coup by the busload. Who wants to *hope* you get paid next week?

When it comes to the ship aflame and sinking faster than you can paddle there comes a time to just let it sink. Throw what you can overboard and swim for shore. KS *can* salvage his company without outside help... it many not be the same company when all is said and done but it is possible. He just needs to make some hard choices, fast. His best bet is 1) to shut up, 2) to lawyer up, 3) choose the option that best suits him. His fans need not know the company is in shambles. He could have spun this thing around without any of this customers ever knowing... and I think that is what makes this situation so sad. I think he's spinning in his chair, he's in over his head.

[Lynx7725]

From the talk on RPG.net, which is biased by its very nature, KS is not likely to want to lose control of PB; he has resisted buyout offers before apparently. Which is understandable. He spent what, 2 decades building PB up?

Thing is, if there had been signs of progress, I think a lot more people won't hesitate to chip in. But PB hasn't quite demonstrated real growth -- a lot of their stuff is just running around the same tree, maybe a new branch here and there. I think that's also what bugs the more business-minded people. The potential is there, but sadly only (in their and to an extent mine opinion) if KS isn't running the show anymore.

[promethuem5]

It's really odd to see a big name like this ahving problems regardless of the cause... and always a shame to see such a dinosaur company go down...

[JsARCLIGHT]

Anything can fail or be brought down, it just takes the right hit in the right place to start a chain reaction that causes a topple. Businesses are only as stable as their main workforce... if you have a leach in the blood then the whole body is poisoned.

It's rather scary actually... I know if I suddenly died, my company would suffer a large hit. The other two owners would have a lot of scurrying to do to stabilize things. Such is the nature of small business. The shop is the man is the shop.

[1st Border Red Devil]

Well,

the RPG industry is in bad shape at the moment. There is an absolute glut of d20 related products, most of them not worth wiping your ass with. The Open Gaming License was a good idea that has turned into a Frankensteinian nightmare. There has been a growing backlash against WotC (deserved or not) because it seems like they are walking down the same primrose path that Lorraine Williams took TSR after Gary Gygax got booted. The main difference being that WotC has their masters in Hasbro to please and to keep them afloat.

For whatever reason, there is some animosity on the part of the RPG community to this day over the fact Kevin will not allow anyone not in Palladium to have access to his system (in otherwords, no Rifts d20). I've also had people swear up and down that Mr. Siembieda is an a$$hole among a$$holes. I've met the man and he is as nice as can be and certainly very engaging with fans. He has some disgruntled ex-employees, for sure (probably CJ "Munchkin is my Middle Name" Carella). You can't have lived to Kevin's age and not made at least a few people mad in this world.

[JELEINEN]

(probably CJ "Munchkin is my Middle Name" Carella).

393504[/snapback]

Where'd this come from? I own a number of games he's written, and there's nothing munchkin-ish about them.

As for disgruntled ex-employees, the only former writer for PB that I know that isn't disgruntled is Eric Wujcik (though technically, I believe he still writes for PB on occasion).

In regard to the situation in general, being robbed sucks and having investments go sour is no fun either, but asking your customers to bail you out with charitable donations is just wrong. If KS needs funds, then he should either start selling his back stock at a ruduced price or go public and start selling stock. Either way, it sounds to me like getting cash is just going to be a band aid, as there's no sign that he plans on changing how he runs his business any time soon. And if PB goes, you can rest assured that its titles will never see the light of day again, because KS is never going to let anyone else have them.

[azrael]

Corporate bankruptcy law grants certain conditions and relief that definately help certain forms of businesses when in trouble, but he has not been too clear on exactly what his "problem" is....

*snip, too long to quote*

...and I think that is what makes this situation so sad. I think he's spinning in his chair, he's in over his head.

Which is why I was hesitant about bankruptcy. I think getting a lawyer and shutting up would fall under the same category. Perhaps he should look into getting a lawyer. Unless he's asking for donations to pay legal fees.

Even if he does get the money, what then?

[Lynx7725]

In regard to the situation in general, being robbed sucks and having investments go sour is no fun either, but asking your customers to bail you out with charitable donations is just wrong. 

393518[/snapback]

To be fair, KS ain't asking for donations, he's asking people to buy books and to buy a special piece of art. The value of art is, as always, in the eye of the beholder.

EDIT: I don't think KS is that terrible a man.. you can't live to his age and still be a total b@stard all your life either. It's just that he alienated a lot of fans -- by being (probably overly) protective of his IP (C&D letters were apparently sent out) and being a bit high-handed at times -- and now that treatment is coming back at him.

The main thing the... naysayers, for the lack of a better word, are saying is that even if the temproray cashflow issue is resolved, what changes would come from it? They see PB as a company that's quite ossified and refuses to change with the times -- and that its unlikely after this event that there would be changes for the better.

As I asked -- What value does PB bring to me? And what value does PB brings to the industry? I can't honestly think that it's very much, but I only have a narrow view into the industry from where I am.

Edited April 23, 2006 by Lynx7725

[Lynx7725]

Anything can fail or be brought down, it just takes the right hit in the right place to start a chain reaction that causes a topple. Businesses are only as stable as their main workforce... if you have a leach in the blood then the whole body is poisoned.

It's rather scary actually... I know if I suddenly died, my company would suffer a large hit. The other two owners would have a lot of scurrying to do to stabilize things. Such is the nature of small business. The shop is the man is the shop.

393493[/snapback]

Agreed... but that's why, in order to grow, small companies have to put aside the "I am my company" mentality and go with "I am in charge of a company" mindset -- and then start planning for disaster recovery such as loss of key personnel.

It's not easy, of course, and it's expensive; corporate governance and enforcement is typically an internal cost and you sort of have to devote a few people to do it full time to do a good job. But a small company cannot progress beyond without something like that in place.

Back to the topic. From description, PB is still of the "small business" mentality even though it has a long standing and international reach. It never really progressed out of that mindset even though its products are going out worldwide, and I think that's one major nail. Granted, had they went with a more corporate outlook their product might be different, but I think their reputation as a publisher would be better.

[JELEINEN]

As I asked -- What value does PB bring to me? And what value does PB brings to the industry? I can't honestly think that it's very much, but I only have a narrow view into the industry from where I am.

393523[/snapback]

Something I've seen people in the industry bring up is that one of the likely results of PB going down is a big loss in retailer confidence in RPGs as a whole. PB still has a relatively large share of the market, even if it's been slipping the last few years. If it goes under, then retailers are going to wonder about the health of all RPGs which could result in them not wanting to stock the books. The RPG industry, excepting D&D and possibly White Wolf, hangs by a shoe string anyway.

[Lynx7725]

Something I've seen people in the industry bring up is that one of the likely results of PB going down is a big loss in retailer confidence in RPGs as a whole.  PB still has a relatively large share of the market, even if it's been slipping the last few years.  If it goes under, then retailers are going to wonder about the health of all RPGs which could result in them not wanting to stock the books.  The RPG industry, excepting D&D and possibly White Wolf, hangs by a shoe string anyway.

393559[/snapback]

You read the same thread I read, I believe. And the poster has a point... if it mattered.

Granted, the loss of an established name like PB will make retailers a bit hesitant, but I think a lot of people see the writing on the wall for PB a long time ago. One thing I learn in life is that in a small industry, people talk, and that scuttlebutt generally makes the rounds with the customers too. PB's poor schedule reputation doesn't help them in this regard.

I'm not sure how retailers perceive PB, but I get the profound sense of "meh"; I get a sense that the customers/ retailers sort of expect a production consolidation -- it's just a matter of which company crumbles. WotC and WW was too big to be candidates, the smaller guys don't matter, so it boils down to SJG, PB and a few middle grounds.. and from what I'm hearing, PB had a good market share but is percieved as a weak link due to product quality and its management style.

Not to mention that, as you said, the RPG line has been declining anyway.. A smart retailer would have reduced inventory anyway, I know my LGS did.

I guess what I'm saying is that while PB had a good market share, they had made themselves irrelevant by their practices. The only reason why they are still there is simply because of inertia -- no other better company has emerged to challenge them. It was only a matter of time before some EVENT shot their legs out from under them.

In a way, it's similar in tabletop gaming and for Macross. We know Games Workshop's and Harmony Gold's practices in the past weren't good practices for the industry, and they had increasingly made themselves redundant. It's just whether they can turn that around in their respective industries in time before some EVENT cut their legs out from under them.

(Of course, the level of impact would be very different from PB. GW is a big leader in tabletop gaming; if something happens now the impact is a great ripple. HG is irrelevant, so their passing would hardly be mourned, especially by MW.)

[Ladic]

cant they just sell the rights to robotech rpgs? so that someone else can reprint them or make new ones?

[JsARCLIGHT]

cant they just sell the rights to robotech rpgs? so that someone else can reprint them or make new ones?

393572[/snapback]

I don't believe they own the rights to the RT RPG... I think they are a licensee of Harmony Gold. All they own is the game system, to which they applied the RT license they got from HG. My guess would be if they are in a money crisis they might not be able to afford to pay HG for the license (I don't know exactly what their agreement is mind you) and they could stand to lose the license, which would mean they could not legally make the RT RPG books anymore.

That is the problem making something that hinges on something or someone else, you are always at the whim of your licensor. Hell, HG could up and yank the license or just price it out of their reach if they felt PB was "Bad for business" right now.

[Ladic]

so could comeone else buy the game system from them?

[JsARCLIGHT]

so could comeone else buy the game system from them?

393605[/snapback]

I'm not too well versed in the legal rights of PB's game system but isn't that just about all they do hold the rights to? Other than the whole RIFTS world? Every PB book I've seen looked like it was a licensed adaptation of something else using their ruleset.

Selling the "rights" to their RPG system would be like the Beatles selling the rights to their songs to Michael Jackson. It's KS'es bread and butter. Without his RPG system and ruleset all this stuff is is just bad fanfic with bad art IMHO. I still have a few palladium RPG books somewhere in my house and from what I remember the art was terrible (most of it looking like someone traced over something else and then inked it terribly), information was all complete left field "making stuff up" things and the general layout of the books was abysmal. The books I have are a few of the PB RECON series and the Weapons compendium series. It's quite blatantly obvious they did little to no research on the subjects they presented in those books. Sad really.

Edited April 23, 2006 by JsARCLIGHT

[Hoptimus]

Bummer for them. I use to play TMNT and Robotech back in the day every weekend, Heros Unlimited was fun also. RIFTS came out and my friends really got into that one but by that time I was more into my music and girls so I never really played it.

Well I hope that if they do pull out of this they rethink their buisiness stratigey.

[JELEINEN]

cant they just sell the rights to robotech rpgs? so that someone else can reprint them or make new ones?

393572[/snapback]

I don't believe they own the rights to the RT RPG... I think they are a licensee of Harmony Gold. All they own is the game system, to which they applied the RT license they got from HG. My guess would be if they are in a money crisis they might not be able to afford to pay HG for the license (I don't know exactly what their agreement is mind you) and they could stand to lose the license, which would mean they could not legally make the RT RPG books anymore.

That is the problem making something that hinges on something or someone else, you are always at the whim of your licensor. Hell, HG could up and yank the license or just price it out of their reach if they felt PB was "Bad for business" right now.

393575[/snapback]

PB lost the Robotech license a few years ago. My understanding is that HG wanted too much to renew it. This letter was the first news I or anyone else that I know of had heard of PB trying to get it back.