Off Topic Forum

[Jemstone]

One person who says some thing with no respect for others beliefs and another person who takes offensive at the slightly hint of disrespect to their beliefs.

The insensitives and the oversensitives.

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You mean kind of like the gender sensitivity problems that arise on the board but it's just easier for moderators and other members to ignore and pretend was never an issue which only causes a never ending cycle?

[Roy Focker]

So your monthly circle is still working.

[Jemstone]

So your monthly circle is still working.

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Yes, you'll be happy to know that is and unhappy to know that my sense of humor is not right now. However, that's not what I'm referring to. In fact you may remember a little topic created by a male board member titled "Rainbow Brite" which actually fulfilled the basic requirements of anime and sci-fi. There was never an adequate reason given to why it was closed. Only reason was given by you, Mod Roy, deemed it too "girly" for MW. The topic wasn't offensive and small enough to die on it's own after "Murky and Lurky were funny" remarks fulfilled the reason it existed were made. So it's funny from my point of view that you would sit there and dictate what's too off topic to discuss yet you still discriminate against perfectly legitimate topics.

I guess what I'm saying is what's the point of taking your 2 cents seriously as a mod when you're just as flawed (if not more so) as the folks that want an off topic forum? Take your time replying. This can't be lightly taken without you outwardly seeming willingly sexist and offensive.

EDIT: Let's not take this too personally. I'm not offended by your blatant sexist comment constructed in a classic chauvanist method to be funny and discriminating.

Edited April 21, 2006 by Jemstone

[Jemstone]

I don't expect anybody to reply since there are no men left on MW. Just a bunch of cowardly pansies that cringe when I step forward and point out the obvious when it comes to the chauvanist pig headed attitudes that arise on the board. Rather than face such an issue upfront to solve it or at least reduce it, it's easier to make unfunny PMS jokes or go crying on other boards as some sort of recourse.

The fact is individual mods will always discrinimate against topics they like and don't like. This doesn't touch the fact they let posters they like get away with posting certain things and immediately damn those they dislike. A limit I'm constantly pushing because I am in a very unique position on MW. From being a normal under the radar poster to being quite loudmouthed. I've tested certain situations when I should have been punished but was not because I'm one of only 3 remaining female posters (mods don't want to look sexist). Roy, I just used you as an example because you make it so easy to get my point across. This is directed at all the mods and mini mods.

On the otherhand when an opinion of mine, while unpopular, yet very valid and within the rules, I'm targeted by a lynch mob (only the cowards never do it here save a few souls I can respect). Yet, I'm not the only one that crosses that fine line. DeathHammer likes to delve deep into alot of discussions that are always broderline politics (yet still on topic). Look no furtehr fromt he anime chicks (hate that word) thread. Went from being about fantasies to exactly how is Motoko Kusangi's body is constructed and works to female gender roles in the media. Perfectly acceptible topics but there's always gonna be someone (speaking of mods) that want to pull the plug for whatever reason (too off topic, fear of a response from me etc etc).

So the issue of off topic posts being kept or deleted is gonna be ongoing. Just don't sit there and use religion and politics as an excuse to keep it off when these sorts of "debates" happen unwillingly on the boards all the time. Just make a basic rule or create an off topic board and let those that participate in it fend for themselves. (I suggest a board like that be private and accessible by registered users only). The mods don't even have to look through. Just leave a disclaimer so virgins know what to expect inside.

EDIT: If you feel I'm wrong to feel the way I do or just disagree you can respond. It's not like you'll lose a testicle for not agreeing with me. Just give me real valid reasons to abck up your opinions.

Edited April 21, 2006 by Jemstone

[Roy Focker]

Oh no you didn't!

Rainbow brite again.

Just like a dame to get all crazy and bring up something old and meaningless again. Stop being a stereotype.

Yeah I'm blatant but well you've cried wolf so many times. I don't take your views seriously any more. No this isn't some bias against all women just you.

[Jemstone]

Oh no you didn't!

Rainbow brite again.

Just like a dame to get all crazy and bring up something old and meaningless again.  Stop being a stereotype. 

Yeah I'm blatant but well you've cried wolf so many times.  I don't take your views seriously any more.  No this isn't some bias against all women just you.

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Cried wolf? I think not. Ever wonder why there are so few female posters on MW? Don't tell me it's because they don't like Macross when Robotech.com is full of fmale fans. If I am wrong then bring forth the other females on MW that share your view.

Roy, quit ditching the topic to cover your own ass. Rainbow Brite was a legitimate example. If remember correctly, you closed the topic in feedback where you were asked why you closed it because "too girly" is just sexist.

Face it. The mods on MW discriminate all the time (no, not about gender) but topics they like. Still, if I've cried wolf for nothing bring the other girls that agree with you.

Edited April 21, 2006 by Jemstone

[Mr March]

I don't expect anybody to reply since there are no men left on MW.

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Have to say, you're not winning any points here. I can't recall even having a conversation with you, let alone any arguement. All this does is insult members en masse.

[Jemstone]

I don't expect anybody to reply since there are no men left on MW.

393068[/snapback]

Have to say, you're not winning any points here. I can't recall even having a conversation with you, let alone any arguement. All this does is insult members en masse.

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I just said that because it would get Roy to reply quicker. It worked, didn't it? Besides I'm beyond trying to "win points" with people on this board. Not yet has anyone addressed what I have said and Roy didn't say peep that wasn't already an insult untill I insulted his masculinity (as well as the rest of the board). The fact I even had to go there to get any reply at all speaks for the board posters as a whole.

EDIT: BTW Mr March, if you've ever wondered why I've never said peep to you is because you have always been an "upstanding citizen" of MW (see rational thinker). Yet, you never stood out enough for me to personally tell you of my appreciation of your presence. All you post here did was make me point out the obvious (yet again) an amplify my reasons behind why I will get no responses.

Edited April 21, 2006 by Jemstone

[JsARCLIGHT]

I'd like to think I don't discriminate against topics but then again how I view myself and my actions on here is irrelivant. I can be blamed for discriminating in choosing NOT to delete things rather than deleting them. I cannot please everyone all the time, no matter what I do... so in the end it is a judgement call I have to make based on my own personal bias.

Jem, while I agree with some of what you say you also have to take into account that everything on here and in the regular world is a judgement call based on someone's bias. In a sense you are stating the obvious with your argument. At the same time as I said before, changing the name of this section or changing the "rules" of the section will still not remove the override law that the staff has final say over what stays and what goes. If you play things 100% by the rules even then problems can arise. The rule in effect is there as a contingency to prevent problems rather than cause them... but like anything in the world it does not make everyone happy. While I agree it is kind of a sh!t rule that allows one person to decide if something says or goes it is needed to maintain order. Order means a lot of things to a lot of people, sometimes order is simple structure and organization and other times it means keeping things "in theme". If this is "abused" or not is a valid question and in some instances I would have to agree that, yes, it can and is abused. But there is always a reason for those abuses... sometimes the reason is as purile as "something does not "fit" MW style" but when the staff uses that as a reason we have to take it at face value.

It is a complete cop-out answer but it is the only true answer, which is we do not own this board. Shawn and Graham do, and the staff is (supposedly) chosen by them to enforce the rules and code of conduct of the board. Sometimes the police are your friends and help you out and other times the police seem to be dirtier than the criminals and only there to make your life a living hell. A lot of times that is all in your perception of the police though. We all make calls on things on this board every day or so, sometimes it's a good call and other times it's a bad call... but in the end it's a judgement call based on our bias of how we percieve the situation. We are only human after all and it is impossible to be everyone's buddy all the time.

I would say that if you feel we are a bunch of pigheaded male bastards in the way we handle things perhaps that is simply your perception of our attitude. I like to think I'm NOT that way but my actions, when viewed through the right lens, may make me out... and other mods... out to be just that. Suffice it to say I (and the other mods) are not actively trying to be your enemy. We just want to maintain order, tidyness and civility around here... or at least I do.

[Jemstone]

Not at all a cop out answer. Thanks very much, J's. It's not exactly a subject with an easy answer because it's so subjective. Whether is be the long deleted Rainbow Brite thread or the recent Baseball thread, sometimes there really doesn't seem to be any logic behind why a thread is deleted or kept when you look the existence of other threads. I think a uniform rule is the best option right now because you know people aren't going to monitor what they say (or why else need mods?)

My biggest gripe with MW has been this so called sensitivity issue which has proven to be too intangible and volatile I feel to be used an as excuse why things are done the way they are. Some topics are by no means sexist at all (just as the majority of posters really aren't sexist in the slightest) but how they are handled is easily percieved as sexist. If the topic isn't killed despite clearly going out of control and not a single mod so much says a peep then it just reflects badly on the ones adding to it, the mods not saying anything and the community that seems to be ok with it by tolerating it (the point I was trying to make with Mod Roy).

It's just simpler for me to point the gender based sensitivity ones since I seem to be the only female left willing to say "hey watch it" rather than giving up on MW altogether. Which just happens so much because nobody else is working on the problem but me it seems (so I have a reputation for it).

Not to say I don't expect this type of stuff at all (trust me in my field I'm all too used to it) but I prefer more constructive reasonings in response to certain topics. Look no further than the Shadow Chronicles screen shot thread to see what I mean. "Oooh boobies" is expected but some added stuff is not.......

BTW As perceptions go regarding that topic, I was told by someone (no, it's not Abombz) that MW is giving a pedophile like vibe with stuff members say which is why she left). I don't see the pedophelia connection but I digress.

I'm saying people need to watch what they say yes, but to leave it on the shoulders of the mods to take it upon themselves subjectively, gets us nowhere. especially, if the mods themselves are "human" and just as bad.

Edited April 21, 2006 by Jemstone

[Mr March]

I just said that because it would get Roy to reply quicker. It worked, didn't it? Besides I'm beyond trying to "win points" with people on this board. Not yet has anyone addressed what I have said and Roy didn't say peep that wasn't already an insult untill I insulted his masculinity (as well as the rest of the board). The fact I even had to go there to get any reply at all speaks for the board posters as a whole.

EDIT: BTW Mr March, if you've ever wondered why I've never said peep to you is because you have always been an "upstanding citizen" of MW (see rational thinker).  Yet, you never stood out enough for me to personally tell you of my appreciation of your presence. All you post here did was make me point out the obvious (yet again) an amplify my reasons behind why I will get no responses.

393083[/snapback]

Let's be honest, if you weren't trying to influence people with your grievances, you wouldn't be posting at all. Regardless, I understand your explanation of the above post and I'm happy it wasn't really meant to be as hateful as it sounded.

I haven't wondered why we've never spoken. Forums are like that and there are several longtime members here on MW that I never cross topics with. It happens. But it is nice that you think so highly of me.

I do believe there may be a problem with topics on MW, but like JsARCLIGHT has stated, I'm not sure much can be done about it. As I stated above, a lot of MW rules just come down to a vague sense of decorum. The boards are run fairly fast and loose, a style that I personally enjoy and support. The staff simply use common sense to manage the boards and thus avoid most of the "rule quoting" that occurs at more structured/defined message boards. But it leaves a lot of room to wiggle, which often times leads the staff to step on a few toes. Overall, I think it works out for the best, even at the expense of a forum that might be a little stagnant from time to time.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Sometimes we don't say something because we don't see something... or perhaps it is because we ourselves may not be close enough to the issue to notice it. And to that end is why the users can "call 911". Any time you think you see a problem, PM a mod. In the whole time I've been a mod here (which is not that long) I have only received a handful of action requests... most of them being housekeeping requests from areaseven which I cannot actually do anything about (mini mods don't have edit ability).

What I am trying to say is that if it seems we are letting something slide that concerns you, ask us. If it's in my area (which Other Anime is), ask me. I will always respond to PMs and I will always look into things people request me to in my areas. It's not like this job is balls to the wall something always happenging nuts... hell, most of my days are spent just sitting around being a normal member. I'd rather people see me as a mediator than a dictator and we are here to help. Don't take it for granted that we "agree" with something just because it exsists. That is like believing we all agree with scottish haggis just because it exsists and we don't say or do anything positive or negative about it. Then again at times the mods DO agree that something should stay when people want it closed... again that is a personal call based on our own views and opinions. When it comes to threads and topics usually several people agree with us and several people disagree with us.

At the same time I cannot control the members or any of the other mods as much as they cannot control me. Well, the other mods and admins actually CAN control me... I'm the lowest rank on the pole and if I cause trouble I'm gone like the trash. What I'm trying to say is there are a few constants in the world (and Macrossworld): Liars will lie, stealers will steal, killer will kill, a-holes will be a-holes, problems will come up and sometimes those problems cannot be solved easily or immediately... or ever. If we all lived virtuously then trouble would never happen but heck, trouble happens from simple misunderstanding as much as it does from outright hostility. We all just need to take it for granted that things are going to be said and done on here that we all disagree with at some point and we need to just let bygones be bygones and sail over it all.

Message boards should be the modern hedonism, live in the now of the board and try not to bring up the past... it will only bitter you as to the potential future. Live and post for the moment, enjoy the now. When the now is gone, live and post in the future. In the end a message board is simply words on a screen, simple ideas and such. Nothing to start wars over. I have yet to find a Helen of Troy online if you catch my drift.

[Jemstone]

Let's be honest, if you weren't trying to influence people with your grievances, you wouldn't be posting at all.  Regardless, I understand your explanation of the above post and I'm happy it wasn't really meant to be as hateful as it sounded.

True but I'm not trying to gain sympathy at all. This is not a sympathetic type of argument since my only real role was pointing at the obvious and asking, to the point of nagging, "hey what's with this?". Most people already know where I stand. I think they really have no idea where it is THEY stand and that's why things are a mess.

I had to handle Roy in a way which on his own (albeit sorts of ignorantly) illsutrate my gripe. There he was a mod that casually stated a topic was too girlish for a board full of guys. Slap to my face right there (and a guy created the thread). Then continue to carry this attitude in a thread asking what's the deal when he was more than overtly sexist with his reasonings. Since he was the guy in power he chose to ignore it and pretend he was of no wrong doing but accuse me of over reacting. I'm sorry but I'm nobody's bitch and neither should anyone else on the board be a mod's just because.

Fact is alot of guys on here are immature and it takes insulting them where it matters for them to respond. A pitiful tactic, yes. However, what's more pitiful? The tactic itself or the fact it's the only tactic that seems to have any results? You decide.

Edited April 21, 2006 by Jemstone

[Jemstone]

Roy, in response to the last time we spoke via PM about a "problem". Here:

Personal Message

yellowlightman 

jemmy wemmy, Today, 06:54 PM

Sharon Apple Concert Attendee

Group: Members

Posts: 2514

Member No.: 22

Joined: 21-August 03

you need a new hobby. stop taking this poo so seriously.

Funny who thing who sent it, right? Someone I'm not supposed to be communicating with whatsoever. This can't possibly be bait. Of course not because nobody on MW actively seek to provoke me, right? Including the ones I consistently have stellar arguments on the board with.

[do not disturb]

when will people realize you're not going to change anyones views/opinions/attitudes/behavior on a messageboard, using logic or otherwise. and honestly, how does something said here affect your actual life? its funny cause i used to get all pissed off when people would bitch me out for whatever dumb crap i posted that day but after a while, i realized its just a friggin messageboard, so who gives a rat ass?

as far as all the mod bashing, the mods don't really have to justify their actions do they? i think of MW like a CC company, the people who don't piss off the CC company become preferred platinum members, while the people who piss off the CC company remain regular members that get sent to the end of the line every time they request something....if you're a pain in the ass, who the heck is going to want to help you, let alone communicate with you? logically speaking of course. and this whole i deserve/demand an explanation crap really has to stop. you can't expect a detailed explanation for every little decision a mod makes, you're not a lawyer and this isn't a courtroom, its a messageboard for crying out loud so deal with it.

by no means is this post buttkissing, i'm just a regular member and i'm pretty certain i pissed off every mod/member on this board at one point another so believe me when i say, i'm nobody's favorite member on these boards. i just find it retarded that every other day someone has some bitchin to do about a mod and its getting real old real fast. no one is forcing you to stay and participate, so when someone here can produce evidence of a fellow member holding a gun to your head, making you read a post, forcing you to care about it, then respond to it, feel free to complain all you want, til then let it go, deal with it, or simply leave.

[JB0]

The value in debate is the debate itself.  There is much to be learned about oneself and others when engaged in debate, regardless of any tangible outcome.  When I debated in college groups and on the old dialup BBS before the internet came around, it was an experience that helped me grow immeasurably during my late teens to early twenties.

I agree with that.

My problem is that when the entirity of that debate is "You're a dirty bastard that eats impoverished babies!" "Shut up, you pot-head hippie!" or "YOU'RE GO NNA BURN IN HELL!" "Nuh-uh, because there is none and you're a deluded fool.", the debate has no value, beyond a possible brain damage factor.

It's been my experience that the most important knowledge is that which is learned through debate.  Defiantly proclaiming no one has any proof of anything is helping no one, especially yourself.  What matters is what you are willing to examine when someone has you and your beliefs up against a wall.  You don't win any points for shooting down atheists in church groups or belittling fundamentalists with your pals at a secular society meeting.

Again, the point you make isn't really wrong, it's just ignoring the type of person that usually winds up dominating such threads. The extremists get in a shouting match that makes any REAL discussion impossible and leaves everyone else with a lower opinion of humanity.

I know most people are taught to play nice, don't swear, and avoid fighting.  It's a nice, warm fuzzy thought, but it's also unrealistic and naive.  Conflict and debate are part of life and the absence of such is an intellectual deadend.  Rest assured that debates, civil or uncivil, have worth and one is better off for the experience.

Again, I agree with the point, just not that it will apply.

ALL debates do not have value.

In fact you may remember a little topic created by a male board member titled "Rainbow Brite" which actually fulfilled the basic requirements of anime and sci-fi. There was never an adequate reason given to why it was closed. Only reason was given by you, Mod Roy, deemed it too "girly" for MW.

Actually, that wasn't the reason.

I believe the EXACT reason given for closing the thread was "Rainbow Brite is cool. But not cool enough for MacrossWorld."

*searches*

Okay, it was that "Rainbow Brite while slighty more cooler than Robotech is not cool enough for Macross World."

Girly was never stated, or even implied. Merely uncoolness.

And Ms. Brite failed to be japanese or sci-fi, thus not meeting the basic requirements that would've protected a thread about, say, Silverhawks.

I don't really care either way, but factually incorrect statements suck.

[yellowlightman]

Jem, I hate to break it to you but the internet is not a feel good utopia of hugs and kisses and good will towards all of hummankind. Our discussions take place in a field of anonymity and your constant tirades will not prod any of the members here towards thinking progressively or changing fundamental behaviors they displayed before sitting down at their keyboards.

[Jemstone]

Actually, that wasn't the reason.

I believe the EXACT reason given for closing the thread was "Rainbow Brite is cool. But not cool enough for MacrossWorld."

*searches*

Okay, it was that "Rainbow Brite while slighty more cooler than Robotech is not cool enough for Macross World."

Girly was never stated, or even implied. Merely uncoolness.

And Ms. Brite failed to be japanese or sci-fi, thus not meeting the basic requirements that would've protected a thread about, say, Silverhawks.

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Which did you search? The thread itself or the feedback thread dedicated to it?

[Roy Focker]

You people expect me to read all this?

Women like Macross because Robotech.com is full of female fans? I thought the jury was still out on the true gender of the females on Robotech.com. I mean can you offically be called a woman if the operation isn't complete?

[Sundown]

I don't expect anybody to reply since there are no men left on MW.

*Looks down*

Where'd it go?! Aw...

*Cries and cringes*

it's easier to make unfunny PMS jokes or go crying on other boards as some sort of recourse.

Actually, it's easier to make unfunny self-effacing pee-pee jokes.

But in all seriousness, making an unqualfied, unflattering statement that encompasses every male member on this board in order to get a reaction from one particular mod is sort of bad form. Bad form, like overplayed PMS jokes are bad form.

I just said that because it would get Roy to reply quicker. It worked, didn't it?

I don't think you'd find it an acceptable if any of us were to disparage every female on a Rainbow Brite forum we both (hypothetically!) frequent, then claim that we were just trying to get you to respond in a timely fashion. Nor would any of the members of that board, I imagine.

Plus I would think Roy would reply even more quickly if you were to question his manhood alone, not that I'm recommending you do that kind of thing.

Anyway, here's how I see it. If someone responds only to insult and hostility, his response usually isn't one worth receiving in the first place. If he won't respond otherwise, that often says something about his character, and that may be the only response you need.

And because I have to be fair... if one is willing to insult many (some whom might not even deserve it) just to get a response from a lone individual, that often says something about their character as well. Winning points, making friends, and garnering sympathy or not, I think there's still something to be said about civility and stating things fairly.

And in all honesty, I can't really see how Rainbow Brite is Sci-Fi or Anime, even if it does happen to be an 80's TV show that I still remember the theme song to. It just doesn't naturally belong in the Anime/Sci-Fi forum. I'd still be amused by the existence of a thread covering it though, although it'd either find low interest here or end up going in a direction you really don't want it to go.

[JB0]

Actually, that wasn't the reason.

I believe the EXACT reason given for closing the thread was "Rainbow Brite is cool. But not cool enough for MacrossWorld."

*searches*

Okay, it was that "Rainbow Brite while slighty more cooler than Robotech is not cool enough for Macross World."

Girly was never stated, or even implied. Merely uncoolness.

And Ms. Brite failed to be japanese or sci-fi, thus not meeting the basic requirements that would've protected a thread about, say, Silverhawks.

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Which did you search? The thread itself or the feedback thread dedicated to it?

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Both. The only reason I saw given BY ROY was in the original thread.

[Mowe]

Roy Focker,

Thanks for the slap in the face and yes I am jumping up and down. I asked a very simple question politely under the FAQ & Feedback Forum. You skirted around the question and translated my question into some sort of revolutionary call. I was expressing my disappointment that the thread was closed but at no point did I hold any grudge about the Mod for doing so.

Your reply was rude and assumptious, making my question seemed a lot more political and complicated than what it really was.

I don’t know where you draw the line regarding “dumbnessâ€, “worthiness†and “how a big boy should behaveâ€. You have people on this MW board spending $500 plus on a plastic toy and I don’t tell them to grow up.

Many people join Internet forum to have a bit of harmless fun. You’ll be a moron if you think those who posted actually meant what they said in that thread. We all knew the topic was “dumb†and “retarded†but is it doing anyone harm to anyone? If the actual topic has stepped over the MW line, lock it by all means. I didn’t know “dumbness†was part of MW’s quality control guideline.

I know this post will get me into trouble (and likely to get deleted/edited/lock, you choose it), but like Jemstone says, I don’t care anymore if this is where MW is heading.

[azrael]

You people expect me to read all this? 

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I stopped reading when this whole "I want Roy's attention" thing started....