Macross Ii Anime Film Awesome! *heavy Spoilers!*

[Zinjo]

Gotta agree about Feff's Gilgamesh. Damn fine and malevolent looking Mecha! Something a microne would expect to fly if you fought against Giants a lot.

I still love the VF-2SS above all Spacy VF's in the show. I always felt the AAB's were under utilized considering they reminded me of the New Type Psycho Bits (can't recall what they were actually called) from the Char Aznable Era of Gundam, but most likely with the AI that the Ghost fighter used from Macross Plus.

It may not have been such a radical departure from the original design as SK took, but it's a solid functional design that is simplistic as it is effective. Something you'd expect a military to crank out by the hundreds in short period of time.

The Icarus just seemed too busy a design and I found it's scale unusually large compared it it's space based cousin.

The Metal Siren was a cool concept, but IMO it could have been done better, or at least differently. I simply didn't think the nose extension was necessary for the Pinpoint Barrier lance. If it doubled as the Gun Pod as well as the lance, maybe. I got the distinct impression it was designed as a battroid first and then reverse engineered to a fighter without the benefit of the technical drafting training SK has.

In that particular respect I think old SK would have done a better job on that fighter.

I am a big fan of the Mac II destroids! They definitely show an evolution from the originals. However I prefer the Macross Plus and 7 capital ships over the Macross 2 versions (maybe it is because we never really got to see what the Heracles or the Gloria could really do in battle).

I do find it amusing that most advocates against Mac II repeat the DYRL mantra over and over. I see the similarities to the movie as well, however I see the blatant differences too.

If one were to watch the show from an objectively critical point of view they'd see what I see, that being of an incomplete story that jumps from story arc to story arc without a satisfactory conclusion to many story threads.

This show was not complete and, unlike North American shows, would not have been abruptly cancelled. Most likely Big West told the producers after episode 3, that the ratings were low and the show would only be given enuf funds to wrap the story in 3 more episodes (as opposed to the originally proposed 9 or 12 eps?). Thus the production had to "wrap" up the story in a hurry and clearly it was not done as well as it could have been.

In the same manner I could easily dismiss Macross 7 as juvenile tripe, with a outdated bland premise of fighting "giant space monsters", etc... To be fair to the show and to be truthful, I enjoyed the characterizations in the show and the dynamics between the Mylene and Basara characters, as well as the family dynamics of the Jenius'.

The show had it's good points as well as it's bad, but I won't dismiss it out of hand, by echoing other's broad based assessments or making similar ones of my own.

Back to my original theme, IMO it was damn nice not to see those pods again (have never been and never will be a fan of the Zent battle pods of SDF Macross)!

Edited April 22, 2006 by Zinjo

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

You didn't like the regult? Those were cool. I actually like these more than the inbit from mospeada.

From the big eyeball in the middle. To the powerful looking legs, to the way they boost jump into the air. And how thier weapons are so simply designed but effective: (the guns sit embedded inside the armor attached to a ballsocket which allows them to freely rotate in any direction - one on each side)

I think it looks cool

[Twoducks]

Well, finally finished seeing Macross II (8 years isn't much, right). This thread rekindled the interest in MII and I have to say I'm happy. Not the best Macross I've seen but overall fairly good story that kept my interest until the end.

The ending felt a bit rushed and was a little anticlimactic but served is purpose (too bad the story had to be kept short ).

The theme with journalism and the search for the truth, hard as it may be, was my favourite part. Things like how the Marduk had a tendency for the “you don’t think like us then you where manipulated†way of thinking where nice continuation of this theme. In the end I felt it could have been more tied to the ending though, like not just having Ishtar speak to her people but have Hibiki support that with images of Earth culture in contrast to what the Marduk do (the showing both sides view to find the truth Dennis speaks of). Ingues could still have blown everybody up to help screw his own view on the subject in the eyes of the Marduk.

On the DYRL? thing I have to say that MII has enough elements to be considered a stand alone piece. Some elements are shared "impossible odds - bad guys change side - we win" but that wasn't created by DYRL? and follows old archetypes that have been seen thousands of times before. If anything, you can appreciate how too different roads lead to the same need for Earth to use the thing that makes it unique to survive rather that just a big gun: it's culture. The UNSpacy have degraded their culture, which saved their bacon last time, to a mere weapon (very close to what the Marduk do) and make the error to think that this is the ultimate weapon because they narrowly think that culture is impossible for others to achieve. Sharing culture as oppose to using it as a way to negate the other is what saves the day.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

All I know is that if there were a macross III, and it followed the exact same path and gave the exact same message (I don't care if there are different character doing it) I would be disapointed.

I stick by my belief that a sequel should expand upon what has already been said, what has already been done in the past.

Otherwise it has a cash cow feel to it. Like macross plus has the theme of music that saves the day, but it is done in such a way that you could say it doesn't repeat the overall style of the past shows. The AI isn't an alien, it is a creation of our own people.

In macross 7, it was'nt the music itself, the message was how you need to put your heart into a performance to transmit the feeling of a song to the people listening. (it goes beyond the "we need to spread culture" idea, and tries to flesh out the "why it works" reason behind music, even going so far as to have a scientist explore the effect of it on people, plants etc)

In the OT star wars: were introduced to the "force"

In PT they expanded on this and gave us some extra depth: introducing us to the midicloren idea.

What I mean is a sequel should be able to give us all that stuff we loved but not just clone the message from the first, but instead give us more, go into more depth, let us see its origins, let us see something we may not have already known before. You know what I am saying.

Yes I agree the mechas are different (how could they not be?), Yes the characters are new people (it's the future FFS), yes by this time they are using new ships and not the ancient SDF1 (really do you expect them to not advance at all? this was the very first time the humans built one, and for me seeing it getting destroyed was not THAT big a shock to me or even the characters in the story given how obsolete it was) and yes I agree there were "enough difference" from the original (me calling it a "clone" is more reffering to the basic concept not the whole show - sorta like how you could say gundam seed is 'clone' of the ideas in MSG) that you could still enjoy watching it. I've already said I am a FAN of macross II, but from a critical viewpoint, its the same thing that was done before.

I'm just saying that if they were to do it again: (have humans on earth, have new aliens come to beat us to a pulp, have a girl sing a song and all is better) it would be a wasted opportunity to do something else that we weren't expecting. I gave my idea for a sequel being the "counterpoint" to the original and think it would have been really appropriate and much more interesting. (why? because in the tv series the singing didn't beat kamjin, it goes into more depth than the movie)

So what they could have done was work that idea into the whole "UN SPACY is complacent" idea. Have the singer sing the damn love song, have some of the aliens realise that on first hearing it, it was a shock but that shock still won't change the fact that we need good pilots and soldiers to fight these bad guys or we get a repeat of kamjin ramming his ship into a city and killing innocent lives and bombing people in a revenge attack.

And then the message could be: "humans can't be wusses or we'll all die. Singing only goes so far". The problem is after the events of Macross II what if people see that ishstar sang a song again, and get even more complacent? Seeing even less need to worry? Maybe the civilians are thinking: the military is so incompetent that really what is the point of fighting? The song saved us twice in a row already. I didn't feel any safer from having these people there because they didn't change thier tactics from last time." We only saw it from the feelgood "love song" viewpoint, but not the other viewpoint of soldiers getting whupped from repeating mistake of the past and not learning new tricks. So there was no noticeable change in human attitude towards the threat of another attack like that which would make us tougher. All we saw was the sappy and sweet ending from DYRL. No images of humans learning thier lesson.

In macross 7 we did see an expansion of the ideas. We got answers to origins of culture (going to the first culture's ruins to reinforces the idea that we were the good guys fighting for peace rather than just out to save our skin) and that music alone isn't enough. It is the energy behind the singer putting thier feelings into it as much as the song itself which changes people's behaviour. Sure all the other talented singers could copy, but were they really singing in songs they created and believed in enough to say that this was about something they themselves were saying in the music, based on an experience they had, and not someone else just manufacturing it for them so it feels contrived or forced for commercial reason or to make a buck?

Edited April 22, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[macrossvf-1msx]

I Love Macross 2 it intro me to Macross

before it all i kew was Robotech

but it has it faws but its cool

Not as good as Macross 1984

wish their was more actions/Sbattles B/c from what I readed we only see a small part of the war come on their where 120 Macross canons

[Skull Leader]

(edit)

fu(k it. It's pointless.

Enjoy your crusade.

Edited April 23, 2006 by Skull Leader

[Zinjo]

I'm just saying that if they were to do it again: (have humans on earth, have new aliens come to beat us to a pulp, have a girl sing a song and all is better) it would be a wasted opportunity to do something else that we weren't expecting. I gave my idea for a sequel being the "counterpoint" to the original and think it would have been really appropriate and much more interesting. (why? because in the tv series the singing didn't beat kamjin, it goes into more depth than the movie)

So what they could have done was work that idea into the whole "UN SPACY is complacent" idea. Have the singer sing the damn love song, have some of the aliens realise that on first hearing it, it was a shock but that shock still won't change the fact that we need good pilots and soldiers to fight these bad guys or we get a repeat of kamjin ramming his ship into a city and killing innocent lives and bombing people in a revenge attack.

And then the message could be: "humans can't be wusses or we'll all die. Singing only goes so far". The problem is after the events of Macross II what if people see that ishstar sang a song again, and get even more complacent? Seeing even less need to worry? Maybe the civilians are thinking: the military is so incompetent that really what is the point of fighting? The song saved us twice in a row already. I didn't feel any safer from having these people there because they didn't change thier tactics from last time." We only saw it from the feelgood "love song" viewpoint, but not the other viewpoint of soldiers getting whupped from repeating mistake of the past and not learning new tricks. So there was no noticeable change in human attitude towards the threat of another attack like that which would make us tougher. All we saw was the sappy and sweet ending from DYRL. No images of humans learning thier lesson.

As the show currently stands, I agree. However, I don't believe that is how the show was meant to end. There were too many "set up" story threads that went unfulfilled. Considering the Script supervisor was Sukehiro Tomita who worked on the original series as a writer, I find it hard to believe he'd craft a story of the same caliber as a run of the mill Hollywood hack! I firmly believe the show was meant to be be substantially fleshed out and run longer than it did.

In macross 7 we did see an expansion of the ideas. We got answers to origins of culture (going to the first culture's ruins to reinforces the idea that we were the good guys fighting for peace rather than just out to save our skin) and that music alone isn't enough. It is the energy behind the singer putting thier feelings into it as much as the song itself which changes people's behaviour. Sure all the other talented singers could copy, but were they really singing in songs they created and believed in enough to say that this was about something they themselves were saying in the music, based on an experience they had, and not someone else just manufacturing it for them so it feels contrived or forced for commercial reason or to make a buck?

393402[/snapback]

Your points about the music in Mac 7 is something I understand as well, but if one is to go on about contrived comercialism, please explain how the VF-19 Kai, the VF-11 MAXL and the VF-17 from sound force is not comercialism in it's most shameless form?

The thing that I found refreshing about Macross II's take on music was that it conveyed exactly what you mentioned about how the people of that era were missing the point of where the power in music comes from and that an "alien's song" could not affect the Marduk. It is required, that one of "Their Own" be the one to deliver the song(s) with the passion that would resonate in the hearts of the Marduk. One could argue that in that case, Anima Spiritia requires a "certain resonance or frequency" to affect certain peoples.

[Seto Kaiba]

...

wish their was more actions/Sbattles B/c from what I readed we only see a small part of the war come on their where 120 Macross canons 

393416[/snapback]

Glad you like it, I'll agree with you that there should've been more done with the big space battles, especially the one at the finale. They only show a fraction of the battle because the main character was a civilian, and they were more focused with showing his angle than the military's. Though there weren't 120 Macross Cannons at the last battle, they only mentioned the existance of six of them during the last battle. When it came up in the dialogue, Capt. Balzae asked "Why only four?" and his aide replied "two more are en route."

Seeing more of the U.N. Spacy's own warships instead of the ones taken from the Zentradi would've been a nice touch to the space battles. Sure they modified the ships to launch newer Valkyries, and stenciled a UN logo on them, but the fighting is still done mostly by Zentradi-style ships. I would've liked to see more of the Gloria and Heracles class ships, and maybe even some more to do with the rescue carrier ship that picked up Silvie and Hibiki, and the gunships that make up the rank and file of the human ships.

Your points about the music in Mac 7 is something I understand as well, but if one is to go on about contrived comercialism, please explain how the VF-19 Kai, the VF-11 MAXL and the VF-17 from sound force is not comercialism in it's most shameless form?

That's not entirely the case. Sure the marketing for additional models, toys, etc. practically writes itself when you add specialized models of mecha for main characters, but it's nothing unique to any mecha series. It's been practically a tradition as long as there's been giant robot anime to give the main characters their own specal model of mecha, or a special paint scheme to tell them apart from the rank and file expendable extras. Look at how Hikaru mysteriously got a VF-1J right off the bat, with a different color scheme, when the rest of the recruits flew brown VF-1A's. Or how Max and Milia got special color schemes. Or how in Full Metal Panic, Sousuke got the ARX-7. It's not so much for commercialism as it is for getting the main characters to stand out and be different from the expendable extras.

The theme with journalism and the search for the truth, hard as it may be, was my favourite part. Things like how the Marduk had a tendency for the “you don’t think like us then you where manipulated†way of thinking where nice continuation of this theme. In the end I felt it could have been more tied to the ending though, like not just having Ishtar speak to her people but have Hibiki support that with images of Earth culture in contrast to what the Marduk do (the showing both sides view to find the truth Dennis speaks of). Ingues could still have blown everybody up to help screw his own view on the subject in the eyes of the Marduk.

Another of the interesting aspects that comes out that proves that Macross II isn't a DYRL carbon copy. You could compare the UN Spacy in Macross II to the Soviet military during the cold war, when the government exercised massive censorship of the press to save face, even when things weren't going well. And you had one borderline crazy reporter determined to get the truth out, which got him locked up, and likely nearly executed, very like Russia under Stalin. Then you had the very Hitler-esque Mardook, where disobedience is punished by death, and where the goal is to wipe out everything other than the "master race" as Ingues plans to wipe out every non-Mardook species.

fu(k it. It's pointless.

Enjoy your crusade. 

393454[/snapback]

Thank you, I hope you'll enjoy my work as well.

Edited April 23, 2006 by Seto Kaiba

[Zinjo]

The whole marketing point was to demonstrate that all anime has shameless commercialization in it. It is what pays the bills.

I may not care for the VF-19 Kai or the VF-11MAXL, but that just means I don't buy the kits is all. I don't hold any particular series on some pedestel, I enjoy them for what they are, warts and all.

I would love to sit down with some of the key production staff from Mac 2 and find out exactly what they had in mind for the show if they were given the necessary number of eps to tell the full story.

It is entirely possible that Spacy was deliberately written to be similar to the Cold War Soviet state and the Marduk to be an architype for Nazi Germany.

I want to know how the whole Nexx / Sylvie relationship was resolved; When did Ishtar fall for Hibiki; Was Feff actually demoted after the initial failure of his mission at the beginning of the show; What is the specific mythos of the Alus Ship; when did Hibiki realize he had feelings for Sylvie, etc....

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

please explain how the VF-19 Kai, the VF-11 MAXL and the VF-17 from sound force is not comercialism in it's most shameless form?

What I mean is the character Basara was deeper than ordinary musicians. His mission in life was getting aliens to understand him not just being famous and just wanting riches like normal people. You'll note he half didn't care what other band members thought of fire bomber not being sucessful at first. If you as a firebomber fan didn't understand him for example it's not like the character minded if you became a fan of someone else. Secretly he was working for the military, but choosing his own way to go about achieving what he set out to do. (he wasn't just a member of fire bomber remember. He was good enough to kick anyone's ass in a normal valk armed with weapons but was a kind of special branch max used, to see if there were a non-violent way to convert aliens to our side. He was a civilian but the way they let him do what he wanted, was as if max wanted him to succeed so they didn't need to use the nasty stuff to kill people)

Once he achieved that he was happy. For basara just waking up sivil was more important and higher priority to him than just getting into the top forty. The music was more a means to an end to achieve that goal of getting aliens pacified, than because he wanted to be a star.

What does this have to do with "expanding" on the idea? Well it goes into a bit more depth because it means music isn't just diversion tactic but an actual power that affects people in specific ways (healing, waking up, attacking, trapping them etc) that requires a specific person with a specific skill to have any affect. (ie anima spiritua seems mainly unique to basara, and without his presence on the battlefield - as opposed to sending a singing hologram - it won't work) Yeah minmay was fascinating for a while in the first tv series, but they try to go into more detail about the "why?" it works. Even if it is psuedo scientific, it is still trying to flesh out the idea and explain why it might not always work. (people's emotion during the song not being sent outwards to affect the listener. Shown as basara's song energy being represented by glowing power of a certain color around the body)

There was no energy like that in the previous series. So it feels like it is "growing" on the idea rather than repeating something.

Edited April 23, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[MjrMisaHayase]

Repeat after me:

Maintain balance: Stay neutral

Maintain balance: Stay neutral

Maintain balance: Stay neutral

Maintain balance: Stay neutral

[Zinjo]

please explain how the VF-19 Kai, the VF-11 MAXL and the VF-17 from sound force is not comercialism in it's most shameless form?

Secretly he was working for the military, but choosing his own way to go about achieving what he set out to do. (he wasn't just a member of fire bomber remember. He was good enough to kick anyone's ass in a normal valk armed with weapons but was a kind of special branch max used, to see if there were a non-violent way to convert aliens to our side. He was a civilian but the way they let him do what he wanted, was as if max wanted him to succeed so they didn't need to use the nasty stuff to kill people)

Basara's main focus was about "his" music, nothing else. When they encountered aliens he changed his focus. It wasn't until he tried to wake up Sivil that he truly stopped being selfish about it.

Roy was secretly working for the Military, not Basara. Basara was given a state of the art, customized Valkyrie from Roy, no questions asked (which is stretching reality a bit). There wasn't any indication (from what I remember) that Basara was secretly working for anyone but himself.

What does this have to do with "expanding" on the idea? Well it goes into a bit more depth because it means music isn't just diversion tactic but an actual power that affects people in specific ways (healing, waking up, attacking, trapping them etc) that requires a specific person with a specific skill to have any affect.

I dont' dispute that fact. SK bringing up the idea that the "passion" behind the music is where we find the real power, is not at issue.

(ie anima spiritua seems mainly unique to basara, and without his presence on the battlefield - as opposed to sending a singing hologram - it won't work) Yeah minmay was fascinating for a while in the first tv series, but they try to go into more detail about the "why?" it works. Even if it is psuedo scientific, it is still trying to flesh out the idea and explain why it might not always work. (people's emotion during the song not being sent outwards to affect the listener. Shown as basara's song energy being represented by glowing power of a certain color around the body)

Well Anima Spiritua is not unique to Basara. Mac 7 already mentioned that they had a small army of AS people who helped imprision the PD. In fact, the show left the nature of the AS gifts conspicously undisclosed. This way we can conclude Anima Spiritua gifts are not exclusive to singing.

The singing holograms of Mac II failed because of two things, the people of Earth, in the complacency began to believe it was the song, not the emotion that won the battles and most cases it was correct, as the "culture shock" attack had always succeeded to stun their enemies long enough for Spacy to get the upper hand in every battle. When faced with the "emulators" which could be argued, had Anima Spiritua gifts, the Terran assumption about music fell apart.

As for Minmay, I suspect the reason her songs had such impact was the fact that she put so much passion into her songs, however she didn't have the same discipline Basara had.

There was no energy like that in the previous series. So it feels like it is "growing" on the idea rather than repeating something.

393566[/snapback]

Well there was no "animated" energy previously, that doesn't mean it never existed before.

Macross II didn't add to the existing lore, as much as it took a different point of view. A "what if" scenario that has been in people's minds, but never explored.

[Seto Kaiba]

All right gents, that's quite enough, let's get back on topic.

Edited April 24, 2006 by Seto Kaiba

[MjrMisaHayase]

All right gents, that's quite enough, let's get back on topic.

394004[/snapback]

And, ladies.

[Zinjo]

All right gents, that's quite enough, let's get back on topic.

394004[/snapback]

I don't recall straying too far off the topic, brother...

I always came back to Mac II.

[Seto Kaiba]

And, ladies.

394027[/snapback]

Yes, and the ladies too.

I don't recall straying too far off the topic, brother...

I always came back to Mac II.

Now now, we're here to chat about the aspects of Macross II, and while it might be fun to bash Kawamori for taking his revenge on the Macross community for having made a Macross series without him in the form of an annoying rock band, some sentai action hero look-alike Valkyries, and music that would make your teeth ache, it's not quite the point.

Macross II is (thank god) a completely separate continuity from Macross 7 and Macross Plus, representing an alternate path of history and mecha development in which the UN takes a mecha developement path more in line with current fighter development (slow refinement, not drastic leaps) and has become somewhat reliant on facing the Zentradi down using music as a culture shock weapon as they'd done in the past, with no sort of magical, pseudospiritual BS attached.

Edited April 25, 2006 by Seto Kaiba

[Phalanx]

Now, as we all know that despite the fact that M2 is considered to be the oddball of the Macross Canon continuity due to obvious reasons I won't state, they're some aspects of it that made it stand out from the rest of SK's series like the mecha designs and it's different historical path that Seto points out. However,1/1 LV Lurker made a good point about how the use of music was expanding the idea that SK had used in Macross where in M7, the use of music to convey emotion rather than to distract was ideal to the defeat of the Varauta, but wasn't there emotion in M2 where Ishtar and her sisterhood of singing emulators sang together to overpower Ingus' forces as well? In the end,I would like to point out once again that the two things that made M2 stand out from the other series is that the mecha designs were radical and updates of original VF's (the VF-2SS and VF-2J) and that it wasn't unoffcially part of the original timeline that took a different path down history in an alternate universe.

[Seto Kaiba]

However,1/1 LV Lurker made a good point about how the use of music was expanding the idea that SK had used in Macross where in M7, the use of music to convey emotion rather than to distract was ideal to the defeat of the Varauta, but wasn't there emotion in M2 where Ishtar and her sisterhood of singing emulators sang together to overpower Ingus' forces as well?

In the end,I would like to point out once again  that the two things that made M2 stand out from the other series is that the mecha designs were radical and updates of original VF's (the VF-2SS and VF-2JA and that it wasn't unoffcially part of the original timeline that took a different path down history in an alternate universe.

394255[/snapback]

For starters, USE PARAGRAPHS! It makes your writing much less of a pain to read. For each complete thought, use a complete sentence, and when you're done following one line of thought, make a new paragraph. It's not just for your sake, but for ours, so we don't go mad trying to read the super-paragraph from hell.

Starting on the use of music in Macross 7 to convey emotion, that wasn't the point. In Macross 7, music generates some pseudomystical force called anima spirita that the Protodevlin feed on, and that the Varuta don't have, so the spirita breaks them from their mind controlled-zombie state. It's all pseudospiritual BS, just Kawamori's take on "The Force" from Star Wars. I know the only thing I feel listening to Basara molest that guitar and microphone is irritation at Kawamori.

Emotion to do with turning the Mardook against Ingues? Maybe. I suppose introducing a relatively brutal society to the concept of love might've been what started to turn them, it's certainly what turned Feff. But then again, the introduction of emotions evoked by music has always been a part of the culture shock weapon. The defection of the Mardook fleet was more likely prompted by Ingues's destruction of entire divisions of the fleet when their emulators refused to sing the song of war. When faced with a choice between an annihilation of their own making, and one of their master's making, all they needed was something to push them over the edge and give them the courage to do away with Ingues.

Your last few sentences make no sense whatsoever the way they're worded. I'm guessing you mean that the new mecha designs were radical (ie Metal Siren, Zentradi Valkyrie, new destroids), and that the other mecha were updated versions of the original models from DYRL/SDF Macross. As to it's placement in the timeline, it was INTENDED to be a part of the timeline, and Kawamori removed it because it didn't fit with his idea for the Macross timeline, which involved Macross Plus (which he was working on when II was released) and Macross 7 (which absolutely sucks).

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Basara's main focus was about "his" music, nothing else. When they encountered aliens he changed his focus. It wasn't until he tried to wake up Sivil that he truly stopped being selfish about it.

Roy was secretly working for the Military, not Basara. Basara was given a state of the art, customized Valkyrie from Roy, no questions asked (which is stretching reality a bit). There wasn't any indication (from what I remember) that Basara was secretly working for anyone but himself.

Ah but he lives in a portion of the macross 7 that is not inside the ship where all the other civilians live so he can't be an ordinary civilian. It's kinda strange because it is right there exposed to the danger. I thought this might mean they "knew" him, and that black guy's (who has connections to the military from his past) wanted to fight in a different way, and so max, (being upset in the first tv series that he was firing on milia's own people) saw that it was "wrong" to take advantage of mind controlled aliens by going full force. (shooting to kill) So given max high position, Ray's conections (was a member of pink pecker) and basara's singing (which max encourages his daughters to take up) you could say he was involved in a secret part of the military. (fighting to persuade) Enough that they would grant him custom vf19. Do you not think it is strange that basara a civilian was given state of the art vf19 while thier "elite" were using those vf17? Come on!

And why would the military not see that what it was out there is a VF19 and not be surprised enough? Max must have approved and known about it. Basara would have to be an idiot to think he could just fly a state of the art vf19 if he was alone with no help from the military (secretly).

No normal civilian is going to just fly out into space with a valk in the middle of a battle. But basara was "allowed" to. Cuz max secretly didn't want to resort to killing his enemy. (similar theme in kenshin where the hero has the ability to kill but realises it is wrong no matter the circumstances) I think that Ray might have even trained him because basara was just a street kid when they met. And guess what? There are no details on his past. Sounds like the military erased the file or something. So there is more going on then what you see on the surface. Similar to how global acted a little bit strange in SDF:Macross when the report revealed man's similarity to aliens. (must have known about all the stuff that went on in macross zero? Otherwise Global would have a more surprised look on his face)

I think where you are confusing things is where basara disagrees with the other part of the military that wants to "use" him as the distraction as a dog that follows thier order rather than him choosing how he wants to to the job. (He still wants the freedom to be a civilian you see) Because those other guys don't understand him. They are the most likely to just want to use nukes when things don't go thier way.

Oh BTW Macross II rox!1!11 There. We are on topic.

Edited April 25, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Zinjo]

Ah but he lives in a portion of the macross 7 that is not inside the ship where all the other civilians live so he can't be an ordinary civilian. It's kinda strange because it is right there exposed to the danger.

I got the impression he was more of a stow away than some speculative black ops operative groomed by Ray with Max's consent.

Though since Mac Plus, SK went a little "old anime school" with the whole giant space monsters bit.

That's the main reason I prefer the premise of Macross II, as it follows closer to SDF Macross, DYRL, Mac Plus and even Macross Zero. In that is stays closer to the continuity and universe established in SDF Macross. Since SDF wasn't written by SK, some could argue Mac 7 was his attempt at creating "his" Macross story.

I thought this might mean they "knew" him, and that black guy's (who has connections to the military from his past) wanted to fight in a different way, and so max, (being upset in the first tv series that he was firing on milia's own people) saw that it was "wrong" to take advantage of mind controlled aliens by going full force. (shooting to kill) So given max high position, Ray's conections (was a member of pink pecker) and basara's singing (which max encourages his daughters to take up) you could say he was involved in a secret part of the military. (fighting to persuade) Enough that they would grant him custom vf19. Do you not think it is strange that basara a civilian was given state of the art vf19 while thier "elite" were using those vf17? Come on!

And why would the military not see that what it was out there is a VF19 and not be surprised enough? Max must have approved and known about it. Basara would have to be an idiot to think he could just fly a state of the art vf19 if he was alone with no help from the military (secretly).

No normal civilian is going to just fly out into space with a valk in the middle of a battle. But basara was "allowed" to. Cuz max secretly didn't want to resort to killing his enemy. (similar theme in kenshin where the hero has the ability to kill but realises it is wrong no matter the circumstances) I think that Ray might have even trained him because basara was just a street kid when they met. And guess what? There are no details on his past. Sounds like the military erased the file or something. So there is more going on then what you see on the surface. Similar to how global acted a little bit strange in SDF:Macross when the report revealed  man's similarity to aliens. (must have known about all the stuff that went on in macross zero? Otherwise Global would have a more surprised look on his face)

There's a LOT of speculation in that statement.

I think where you are confusing things is where basara disagrees with the other part of the military that wants to "use" him as the distraction as a dog that follows thier order rather than him choosing how he wants to to the job. (He still wants the freedom to be a civilian you see) Because those other guys don't understand him. They are the most likely to just want to use nukes when things don't go thier way.

Oh BTW Macross II rox!1!11 There. We are on topic.

394343[/snapback]

Well, in "true" military style, this "operative" of yours would have been stripped of his VF-19 and suspended from all military operations for refusing to follow orders...

However, we are to blindly accept the fact that this guy is still allowed to fly this expensive military asset into warzones, disrupting squadron operations against these "giant" space monsters...

As I've said I enjoy the characterizations, but the premise of the conflict is very weak IMO.

Granted, I accept the fact that the execution of the story in Macross II was weak, but the premise was preferable to giant space monsters...

[Seto Kaiba]

Well, in "true" military style, this "operative" of yours would have been stripped of his VF-19 and suspended from all military operations for refusing to follow orders...

However, we are to blindly accept the fact that this guy is still allowed to fly this expensive military asset into warzones, disrupting squadron operations against these "giant" space monsters...

Let's see, even if he was secretly groomed for the operation by the military, disobeying orders, insubordination, recklessly and needlessly endangering both fellow soldiers and civilians, and running amok with an expensive and dangerious piece of experimental military hardware wouldn't just get him suspended from duty and stripped of his VF-19, it would more likely land him in the stockade, pending a court martial, and depending on the way the UN runs, possibly even a dishonorable discharge or a date with the firing squad. Plus I'm pretty sure that Basara's music violates the Geneva convention's provisions on torture.

Since Basara is plainly a civilian, and therefore falls somewhat outside the bounds of military justice, it's patently ludicrous for him to be allowed to fly a variable fighter at all. Considering that he's flying a custom-built valkyrie so new that the military's elite forces don't have them yet, with a specialized control system and experimental weaponry, instead of an old clunker or a civilian model, it becomes even more odd and harder to believe. That he's doing so to fight a bunch of giant space monsters who are vulnerable to singing just stretches suspension of disbelief so far that it puts in it's two weeks notice.

Though to me easily the most ludicrous thing in all Macross 7 was the manual control for the Battle 7's main gun. A little pistol with a gunsight that comes up out of the console in front of Max, like some kind of arcade. That's almost as bad as the little joystick that they used on the flop movie Star Trek Nemesis, as a manual control for the Enterprise E.

Even though Macross II's storyline was admittedly taking something from DYRL and expanding on it, it still remains much more believable and relevant to the Macross timeline than Macross 7.

The only civilians allowed in the combat zone are combat reporters, aka Hibiki and his cameraman Dennis. Since the military has control over what footage SNN airs, they obviously knew that Hibiki was flying up there. Combat reporters are nothing new, we have them today. The only difference is he was flying an unarmed plane instead of walking around as an unarmed reporter. His valkyrie was a civilian one, that had no battroid mode, no weapons, and was outfitted for the purpose of taking footage for the news. Hibiki never directly interfered with the combat operations, and did a few reckless things, but not nearly as many as Basara did.

The only people who flew the newly constructed Metal Siren were the UN Spacy's elite, Nexx and Sylvie, who were both experienced pilots. The only time that Hibiki actually endangered military personnel was when he tried to take Ishtar back to Feff's ship, and even then, he didn't directly endanger anyone from the military or civilian populace. Never once was a civilian allowed in a military valkyrie with the intent that they fight, and only twice were civilians even allowed in at all, at the Moon Festival Airshow, which was pre-approved, and during a rescue operation, which was a necessity.

For insubordination, and recklessly endangering herself, and for concealing the presence of an alien intruder, Sylvie got locked up in the stockade, pending a court martial hearing. For illegal use of emergency broadcast channels, breaking and entering into UN Headquarters, and for broadcasting combat footage not approved by the military, Hibiki got locked up in the stockade pending a hearing. That's much more in keeping with the way a military functions than what Macross 7 has.

The only time they rely on singing as a weapon is when they're using Operation Minmay, and that's a sanctioned, proven military strategem that had been used against the Zentradi multiple times before with equal success. The reason it worked on the Marduk at the end was because it was one of their own emulators, and the troops were programmed to be manipulated by the songs sung by the emulators. There's nothing spiritual about it, no anima spirita, no nothing, this is a simple example of culture shock as a psychological weapon, and turning an enemy's mental conditioning against him.

All told, there's a lot less in Macross II that I find hard to swallow than there is in Macross 7. Kawamori must've let his brain check out for a while.

[Skull Leader]

Now, as we all know that despite the fact that M2 is considered to be the oddball of the Macross Canon continuity due to obvious reasons I won't state....

394255[/snapback]

Wrong. It's not part of canon Macross continuity at all. period.

At best it exists as a separate AC (I'll borrow the term from Gundam fandom for a bit) timeline that goes from DYRL, to the numerous Super CD and PC98 games and then on to Macross II... even that is pushing it.

(along those lines it's like people ASSUMING that just because one of Silvie Gina's grandmothers was meltrandi that it MUST'VE been Milia 639... there isn't any connection other than what fans are trying to bring to the table.)

Edited April 30, 2006 by Skull Leader

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Anyway it just seemed kinda sus that when gamlin wanted to find out about basara he was not allowed to find out this information easily and was blocked from doing so. What was the military hiding from Gamlin? Why block Gamlin from wanting to know something on this mysterious civilian who lives in a capsule stuck to the exterior of the macross 7? (note in macross 7 trash they point out this out - shouldn't he be in the inside of the shell where it is safe? He is obviously given special privledges that normal civilians aren't)

And why is there no background info on him? I speculate that when Ray meets this starving kid on the street, he takes him into his care, and using his past connections is able to train this little kid how to fly. This is the secret of why basara is so good at flying. Makes sense to me. Yes I have no proof, but it is a strong possibility.

The military could secretly be experimenting with new ways to deal with alien threats (by researching into this) but not publicly. (similar to how VF1 itself and its transformation was a secret project not known to the public)

Basara is more than just a normal guy who sings in a band, he has uber skills that surpass the elite who are granted the best valks to fight with; skills almost as good as max, and gamlin is forced to admit this in one of the eps. I find it strange nobody questions how this can be without suspecting that maybe his ideals go beyond wanting to be famous like the other band members who always whined about not getting the gigs to boost thier image; and that he might be part of something that max already knew about from the start but it had to be kept secret from others in the military. Max mentions getting his children into music in the first episode, this is probably an indication that as was seen in SDF:macross, he really doesn't like to use violent methods and his thinking is closer to what Kaifun's thinking was. I mean Basara was way too preoccupied about why the music wasn't working on the new breed of alien to care about other stuff. Not all the people would have been in the know so I assumed information about who basara really is was deleted as we never see him in any flashback before he met Ray.

He's a civilian but it's possibly a cover for something else. Maybe the commercial side to his music is one half, but the other half is his personal wish to use the music in a controlled way to affect the behaviour of aliens as a pacifying weapon. (a non evil method of mind control, kinda like the 'mind control' Sharon Apple used in macross plus, but whose aim is to heal rather than hypnotise)

I just don't buy that a civilian would get access to a vf19 without some strings being pulled. It's the most advanced plane and basara is just a nobody, so the military must knowingly be providing the equipment, but making it look like they have no knowledge on the surface. So I think, the funding for the project must have been secret and this allowed Ray to use his aprentice to test his theories about using music as a mind control weapon and the findings to be used as future tacitcs against other aliens. (think about why kamjin didn't fall for the trick after prolonged exposure in SDF:macross. They might have wanted to know "why?" so they continued this research in secret to find the answers to perfect the weapon. Yes putting your "heart into it" might seem sorta cliche, but a team of scientists might want to know in greater detail what the ingredients are that create this energy to begin with: to cure disease, brainwash people to recreate what sharon apple did, or just for healing purposes, as they might have information from the PC about the use of music for different things other than entertainment)

Edited May 1, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Zinjo]

Now, as we all know that despite the fact that M2 is considered to be the oddball of the Macross Canon continuity due to obvious reasons I won't state....

394255[/snapback]

Wrong. It's not part of canon Macross continuity at all. period.

395291[/snapback]

According to SK's vision of the show...

According to Big West and the Tatsunoko writer who supervised the Macross II story (one of the orignial "writers" of SDF Macross), it is part of "a" Macross continuity, just not Kawamori's.

Keep in mind Shoji Kawamori DID NOT WRITE SDF Macross... He was never credited as a writer and has never claimed to have written the show. He created the Universe concept, the Valks, the story boards and directed the Valk animation, but that is as far as it went.

He is a talented man, but let's give him proper credit for what he has "actually" done on the original show, not what he is speculated to have done.

To be blunt, if Macross II had enjoyed stronger success, there would be two very different visions of the Macross Universe actively produced or at some point the visions would be harmonized into one.

Edited May 1, 2006 by Zinjo

[Phalanx]

If you ask me, I've always honestly envisioned that one day, SK will adopt M2 as part of his offiicial timeline by doing an update to it, rendering all of the mecha into 3-D, and moderately redoing the background story of the chraracters, mecha and etc. in the OAV in order to perfectly fit it in, but that will never happen at all.

[Seto Kaiba]

If you ask me, I've always honestly envisioned that one day, SK will adopt M2 as part of his offiicial timeline by doing an update to it, rendering all of the mecha into 3-D, and moderately redoing the background story of the chraracters, mecha and etc. in the OAV in order to perfectly fit it in, but that will never happen at all.

395804[/snapback]

Not only not likely to happen, but would you really want Kawamori getting his mitts on the Valkyrie II, Metal Siren and Icarus? I've seen where he's going with the future of mecha design in Macross Plus and Macross 7, and I think I'd much rather keep him uninvolved. The last thing we need is another VF-19 Kai.

[Phalanx]

If you ask me, I've always honestly envisioned that one day, SK will adopt M2 as part of his offiicial timeline by doing an update to it, rendering all of the mecha into 3-D, and moderately redoing the background story of the chraracters, mecha and etc. in the OAV in order to perfectly fit it in, but that will never happen at all.

395804[/snapback]

Not only not likely to happen, but would you really want Kawamori getting his mitts on the Valkyrie II, Metal Siren and Icarus? I've seen where he's going with the future of mecha design in Macross Plus and Macross 7, and I think I'd much rather keep him uninvolved. The last thing we need is another VF-19 Kai.

395806[/snapback]

Yeah, I think it's best that Kazumi Fujita and Koichi Ohta stick to handling our beloved M2 mecha since they desgined them, and therefore, know every single technical aspect of them intimately. I can't imagine seeing a so called "VF-2SS Kai" or a Kai version of all the other M2 mecha done by SK. They're all fine design wise and don't want them changed overall for the fans (I have drawn an updated version of the Icarus, because I PERSONALLY think that it needed to be updated), but I wouldn't mind having them with the features advanced VF's like in M+ AND M7 though. He should create his own fresh, new mecha designs and don't even get his filthy hands on M2 mecha.

As for the characters, they're all fine, and if SK hypothetically were to be involved in an update of M2, then he'll probably throw in his mix of characters lwhich would probably gay up the OAV itself like what SK did with his "Brokeback Fire Bomber" band in Macross 7. I'll once again and quickly admit that the concept of using a rock band to battle aliens is rather unique and creative but I wish that the rock band members had more of a hardcore image like Linkin Park and Korn(I know they suck, but I personally think they're decent for a nu metal band) and that would maybe cause me to like them a little more.

Finally, and going back to the topic in general, even though Macross 2 had a weak story, I too, prefer that the humans were battling humanoids than giant but-ugly space monsters. The Marduk, IMHO, are just a more hardcore and ambitious version of the Zentraedi like Feff my favorite villain unlike that stuck up happy person Kamjin/Kyrhon.

[Seto Kaiba]

Yeah, I think it's best that Kazumi Fujita and Koichi Ohta stick to handling our beloved M2 mecha since they desgined them, and therefore, know every single technical aspect of them intimately. I can't imagine seeing a so called "VF-2SS Kai" or a Kai version of all the other M2 mecha done by SK. They're all fine design wise and don't want them changed overall for the fans (I have drawn an updated version of the Icarus, because I PERSONALLY think that it needed to be updated), but I wouldn't mind having them with the features advanced VF's like in M+ AND M7 though. He should create his own fresh, new mecha designs and don't even get his filthy hands on M2 mecha.

Kawamori would not let Macross II go without changing the mecha, they were one of the chief gripes about Macross II. That and that it didn't fit with Kawamori's disgustingly bad vision for the future of the Macross universe. I don't want Kawamori's designs anywhere near the Valkyrie II, the Icarus, or the Metal Siren. He can keep his wrist-lasers, his leg-mounted missile bays, and his impractical and overly-complicated holographic cockpit to himself. If we let him have at it, we'd end up with ultraman faces on the Valkyrie II, speakers EVERYWHERE, and the Macross Cannon would be fired by a little arcade-style gun on Nexx's console, just like the Battle 7's main gun.

Letting Kawamori anywhere near the character design is just as bad if not worse. He'd turn Hibiki into a super-pilot civilian rockstar loser, Silvie into a brain-dead fangirl musician and give her valkyrie II breasts, and probably turn Nexx into yet another brain-fried loser like Gamlin. Plus he'd screw the music up so badly as to make the entire thing unwatchable. Of course he'd turn the Mardook into more Godzilla-like space monsters with super dimension magic and anima spirita.

Personally, I think Macross is better off without Kawamori involved, and that any of the new Macross series should be done without him, and without whatever writer came up with Fire Bomber's songs.

I'm not so sure about Kamjin being that allfired bad, he's at least got a sense of humor, which makes it a little easier to relate to him as a character. And Kamjin was pretty hardcore for a Zentradi, he didn't want to pull any punches, kind of like Ingues, when he went on a bombing spree across Earth, destroyed UN HQ, and generally went all Bodolzaa on the place.

[Phalanx]

Personally, I think Macross is better off without Kawamori involved, and that any of the new Macross series should be done without him, and without whatever writer came up with Fire Bomber's songs.

I'm not so sure about Kamjin being that allfired bad, he's at least got a sense of humor, which makes it a little easier to relate to him as a character. And Kamjin was pretty hardcore for a Zentradi, he didn't want to pull any punches, kind of like Ingues, when he went on a bombing spree across Earth, destroyed UN HQ, and generally went all Bodolzaa on the place.

395822[/snapback]

I think you're right about SK not being involved in any other Macross creation because he's directed like 4 or 5 series and I think he needs to lighten up and take a hiautus from the franchise since he apparently seems to be so sensitive about character and mecha designs. I wonder how Kazutaka Miyatake would fair in creating a new Macross series on his own using mecha and character designs. All he usually designs is zentraedi mecha, support vehicles for the U.N spacy and I'm really interested in seeing him create his own VF's because I want to see how they turn out in comparison with SK's designs.

P.S. Fire Bomber's songs sucked that bad?

Also, about Kamjin, I forgot that he had a sense of humor because it's been a year since I last saw Macross on the Anime Network.

[azrael]

Personally, I think Macross is better off without Kawamori involved, and that any of the new Macross series should be done without him, and without whatever writer came up with Fire Bomber's songs.

Oh, you kids.....

I think you're right about SK not being involved in any other Macross creation because he's directed like 4 or 5 series and I think he needs to lighten up and take a hiautus from the franchise since he apparently seems to be so sensitive about character and mecha designs. I wonder how Kazutaka Miyatake would fair in creating a new Macross series on his own using mecha and character designs. All he usually designs is zentraedi mecha, support vehicles for the U.N spacy and I'm really interested in seeing him create his own VF's because I want to see how they turn out in comparison with SK's designs.

395831[/snapback]

Kawamori already takes a hiatus on any Macross series. You sound like we get Macross like we get Gundam. Four or 5 series is nothing compared to Gundam's 20-something shows. Heck, Kawamori was responsible for one of those Gundam shows. Miyatake already does things on his own...*cough*Orguss*/cough* ? Oh and lets not forget that Miyatake is responsible for all the ships and creatures in Macross. So I think he's a little busy.

[Phalanx]

Miyatake already does things on his own...*cough*Orguss*/cough* ? Oh and lets not forget that Miyatake is responsible for all the ships and creatures in Macross. So I think he's a little busy.

395873[/snapback]

Just that one VF? What I meant to say is that I want to see more VF designs from him. I'm sure he can do much better that. After all, he is gifted in mechanical designing just like SK is. I also give kudos to KM for all for all those ships and interesting creatures we see in the Macross universe. But then again beggars can't be choosers.

[Ginrai]

Heck, Kawamori was responsible for one of those Gundam shows.

395873[/snapback]

Redesigning the RX-78 Gundam into the GP-01 and GP-02A does not qualify as "being responsible" for the show, just partial mecha design.

[Zinjo]

Kawamori already takes a hiatus on any Macross series. You sound like we get Macross like we get Gundam. Four or 5 series is nothing compared to Gundam's 20-something shows. Heck, Kawamori was responsible for one of those Gundam shows. Miyatake already does things on his own...*cough*Orguss*/cough* ? Oh and lets not forget that Miyatake is responsible for all the ships and creatures in Macross. So I think he's a little busy.

395873[/snapback]

Actually, Kawamori takes approximately 3 years of pre-production on any of his Macross projects.

However, I agree that he is running out of credible stories to tell. Now Mac Zero was a refreshing departure from the dross of Mac 7....

[Zinjo]

Kawamori would not let Macross II go without changing the mecha, they were one of the chief gripes about Macross II.

LOL. no really Seto don't hold back, tell us what you really think....

Who's gripes? SK's? As far as I know he hasn't seen Mac II yet, therefore he doesn't have to comment on it....

That and that it didn't fit with Kawamori's disgustingly bad vision for the future of the Macross universe. I don't want Kawamori's designs anywhere near the Valkyrie II, the Icarus, or the Metal Siren. He can keep his wrist-lasers, his leg-mounted missile bays, and his impractical and overly-complicated holographic cockpit to himself.

Well I love the Valk II & the AGA-1JF, but the rest of the fighters don't really impress me that much. I like the concept of the MS, but the design doesn't do anything for me. I liked the holographic cockpit, personally. Considering holo technology had advanced quite a bit even during the 1 year war, it isnt' such a stretch to see it used to give fighter pilots a 360 degree view of their surroundings.

If we let him have at it, we'd end up with ultraman faces on the Valkyrie II, speakers EVERYWHERE, and the Macross Cannon would be fired by a little arcade-style gun on Nexx's console, just like the Battle 7's main gun.

I gotta agree there. The risk of Gundamization is very high.

Letting Kawamori anywhere near the character design is just as bad if not worse. He'd turn Hibiki into a super-pilot civilian rockstar loser, Silvie into a brain-dead fangirl musician and give her valkyrie II breasts, and probably turn Nexx into yet another brain-fried loser like Gamlin. Plus he'd screw the music up so badly as to make the entire thing unwatchable. Of course he'd turn the Mardook into more Godzilla-like space monsters with super dimension magic and anima spirita.

Personally, I think Macross is better off without Kawamori involved, and that any of the new Macross series should be done without him, and without whatever writer came up with Fire Bomber's songs.

395822[/snapback]

As a collaborator with Ken'ichi Matsuzaki, Noboru Ishiguro, Sukehiro Tomita (the original SDF Macross writing team), I'm sure something a bit more credible and less fantasy would result.

Edited May 2, 2006 by Zinjo

[Seto Kaiba]

Well I love the Valk II & the AGA-1JF, but the rest of the fighters don't really impress me that much. I like the concept of the MS, but the design doesn't do anything for me. I liked the holographic cockpit, personally. Considering holo technology had advanced quite a bit even during the 1 year war, it isnt' such a stretch to see it used to give fighter pilots a 360 degree view of their surroundings.

My gripe with the holographic cockpit isn't it's usefulness, but rather the sheer weight of problems in the implementation of it. For starters, by the look of it, you need true color video capture devices all over the plane to cover all those angles seamlessly, then you need the processing equipment to take the input from the cameras and make it into something the holographic projectors can use. Then you have to feed the data into the projectors, which would have to be all over the cockpit to achieve seamless 3D rendering all around the pilot. We're talking about adding an immensely complex system in not much space, when you're working with weight constraints. Add to that the fact that all that video processing is going to take time, at the absolute best, several fractions of a second, at worst, it might even be as much as a second behind. Ask yourself can you really afford to be fighting when all you can see is what happened a few seconds ago? A bullet or an energy beam can cover a lot of distance in those fractions of a second, so that lag could mean the death of the pilot.

I gotta agree there. The risk of Gundamization is very high.

It's to a lesser extent than I originally stated back in the VF-2SS thread, but it IS happening, slowly but surely, the variable fighters of Kawamori's designs are taking on more and more of a gundam-like design aesthetic, and if Kawamori continues, it's likely that soon we'll start seeing that trend continue.

I suppose part of it can be attributed to Gundam's status as one of the most universally recognizable animes out there. If you say gundam, even folks who've never actually watched it will at least have heard the name before.

As a collaborator with Ken'ichi Matsuzaki, Noboru Ishiguro, Sukehiro Tomita (the original SDF Macross writing team), I'm sure something a bit more credible and less fantasy would result.

If only they'd all been there to stop Kawamori from making Macross 7 quite so damn goofy... if only...

My hope is that Shoji Kawamori, as gifted as he is, will be left of out future Macross series production, for the sake of the continuity. At the moment he's rather painted them into a corner and severely damaged the credability of the series as one of the more serious and interesting sci-fi war series out there.

Fire Bomber's songs sucked that bad?

Buddy, if I was an ATF agent, I wouldn'tve even used that crap to end the standoff at Waco, because the world does have laws against cruel and unusual punishment.

Edited May 3, 2006 by Seto Kaiba