Macross Ii Anime Film Awesome! *heavy Spoilers!*

[Skull Leader]

Retroborg, trust me... none of this trivia/information/pictures is anything new. Pretty much everyone here (for better or worse) has seen MacII and knows pretty much everything there is to know about it. Glad you're enjoying yourself though.

Designs and music were passable. The story blows dead goats. It's a sad, sick, pathetic copy of the original DYRL story. Same bullsh!t, different people, different day. It was fine enough in the original DYRL, but "Lovers Again" falls WAY short. Throw another mysterious alien into a love triangle, add a very trans-sexual hair dresser, a female valkyrie pilot with hair WAY out of regs, and an entire society too stupid to even consider the significance of the UNS Macross. Most diehard Macross fans spend the entire series pulling their hair out wondering why the UN and the people in general can't seem to grasp the writing on the wall. There would've been important lessons learned after Space War I that would not have allowed for as many fu(k-ups as these guys had. "Lazy and complacent" my ass. The plot for just about every character is way underdeveloped (you had to work twice as hard at that when you're working with a 6-part OVA), with the possible exception of Ishtar. The subbed version was definately the better of the two to watch, as the dubbed voices are easilly some of the poorest matches in dubbed anime history (this coming from someone who is an advocate of dubs)

I, for one, am glad Kawamori had nothing to do with this series. It might've been good enough in it's own right, but it's hardly worthy of the "Macross" name. (and before you go on about me being close-minded, I should inform you that I consider myself otherwise, and it becomes evident when one learns what anime I watch besides Macross)

Edited April 13, 2006 by Skull Leader

[kyatsu]

hey retroborg, i am just surprised how much you like macross II? i mean do you know what art is? i think you have to watch the movie again to see the inconsistency of the the drawing toward the end of the movie where the art started to look crappy until ishtar starts singing. apparently the studio ran out of artist or money and hired a bunch of lame artists to help out? dont get me wrong, i was very hyped when macross II first came out. i was really into the first two episodes (i saw potential), but when i later found out it was only six episodes long and the last two episodes were very horrible, i just gave up. man, take some art class or something and see how horrible it is, kyatsu

I watched Macross II Movie (DVD) and I must say it was a fantastic film, a true masterpiece!

Here are my thoughts and feelings about the film.

It featured everything a self respecting Anime should deliver.

Awesome animation, epic intergalactic battles, a dramatic / sad story line / plot and a fantastic sound track.

The voice acting in both the US & Japanese versions were very well performed, but my favorite factor in the film was its music.

When Hibiki takes Ishtar to the Moon festival and they listen to Wendy’s Love Song for the first time, with all the fans cheering inside the amphitheatre under the glass dome and the flagship Gloria in orbit, was my favorite moment by far!

I love Lady Ishtar’s ecstatic expressions of joy and happiness. She then reveals her wish to Hibiki, which was to sing the song of love to her own people and bring them peace.

Later on, another very dramatic and shocking moment was when Ishtar starts singing the song of love at the Alus Nova chamber inside the alien flagship, (Sarride) bringing confusion to the Zendraedi soldiers. The outraged Emperor then orders the executioner death ship to cleanse the polluted flagship by blasting it with its laser beams.

Lord Feff and Lady Ishtar, manage to fly out of the doomed flagship inside a battle Mech, just in the brink of time!

As they watch the large nuclear explosion of the Sarride from afar, Ishtar cries for the loss of lady Elensh, but Lord Feff replies:

“Behold, Ishtar…This is the will of Ingues, lord emperor of the Mardook. And this is the result of what you have done!â€

The order given by the Emperor to his soldiers is equally dramatic (And very Japanese in style if I may say so)

"Soldiers sworn to the Mardook discipline… In the name of our culture, crush these arrogant vermin!

In this universe nothing exists which can overpower us!

Therefore, resisting our conquest is impossible.

In the name of the Mardook, destroy!"

The final battle between the U.N Spacey forces and the Mardook fleet is one of the best in any Macross / Robotech film.

The music used for the battle scene is just perfect, as you watch the ships mobilizing for the imminent battle to come!

The two huge fleets engage in a devastating clash, in close proximity to the moon’s orbit.

At first impression, it would seem that the earth’s fleet gains the upper hand by wiping out 60% of the Mardook fleet in a single blow after using four Macross cannons, but all of a sudden, a huge wave of enemy ships de-folds and begins hammering the outnumbered earth fleet with a devastating laser storm!

The entire fleet, the Macross Cannons & the Gloria Flagship it self are destroyed!

What’s interesting is that the Earth side fleets, in all the battles that take place in the film; consist almost primarily of old Zendraedi style battle cruisers also seen in the older Macross DYRL film & the Robotech series.

An apocalyptic dialogue that reveals the true feelings of Lord Feff for Lady Ishtar, takes place at the hangar of the Mardook command ship.

Lord Feff releases Ishtar, but before she leaves, he tells her:

"I know no other life but one of a proud Mardook soldier, in service to lord Emperor Ingues.

I will only cease fighting at my death.

Ishtar you must leave now before I regain my senses.

And remember what is my sworn duty. To the Mardook you died by my hand.

No one will know my failure that I dare to love above my people."

Finally, at the earth’s siege, in the last decisive battle over the scourged earth landscape, Ishtar sings the song of hope and sends to everyone the gentleness of her own heart and saves her people from the dictator.

I find Wendy Ryder’s love song (Japanese) (At the Moon festival) better than Minmay’s “Do you Remember Love†song from Macross DYRL and superior to the English translated version “We Will Win†song, from Harmony’s Gold Robotech series imo.

Same goes for “The Hush of Two Hundred Million Years†intro song (Japanese) compared to Macross DYRL & Robotech intros imo.

Overall, Macross II is definitely one of the best Anime films and should be placed in the hall of all time classics!

Lady Ishtar

Macross VF:

Lord Feff and Lady Ishtar at the Hangar:

Lord Emperor Ingues

Lady Ishtar Concept Art.

SDF-1 Fortress

A few nice Wallpapers / Flyers:

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/2453/ishtari4wo.jpg

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/2638/macross53b4eh.jpg

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/5774/ishtarblue10249ke.jpg

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/7007/ishtar14oy.jpg

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/6875/macross11b2jn.jpg

390243[/snapback]

[Black Valkyrie]

I also like Mac-II a lot.

[Ginrai]

hey retroborg, i am just surprised how much you like macross II? i mean do you know what art is?

390824[/snapback]

Okay, Kyatsu, don't be an ass. We're talking about Japanese pop culture shows about GIANT TRANSFORMING ROBOTS. It's not exactly Shakespeare or Voltaire or Da Vinci or even Fritz Lang or Hitchcock. Come on.

[Uxi]

I like Macross II. Probably more than DYRL even.

Seriously, though, I love the mecha designs that are not just a rehash of something already done. The general storyline and mecha development seem much more logical following the events of Space War I. The contrasting idea from DYRL that song could be used to control as well as liberate was definitely interesting.

The execution, especially towards the end, left something to be desired, though. It seems too anticlimactic. Would have been nice to have the SDF-1 actually be the Alus or maybe a spawn of it or something. Or have the actual Alus show up to defeat Ingues.

I really wish I could get a 1/60 if not 1/48 Yamato VF-2SS and/or Metal Siren.

[retroborg]

It was funny the part where a news journalist flies up into the middle of a fleet-on-fleet space battle and escapes with the enemy's unguarded secret weapon.

I guess the ship she was stationed in was badly damaged and its defences neutralized.

It blew up right after they left.

[Seto Kaiba]

hey retroborg, i am just surprised how much you like macross II? i mean do you know what art is? i think you have to watch the movie again to see the inconsistency of the the drawing toward the end of the movie where the art started to look crappy until ishtar starts singing. apparently the studio ran out of artist or money and hired a bunch of lame artists to help out? dont get me wrong, i was very hyped when macross II first came out. i was really into the first two episodes (i saw potential), but when i later found out it was only six episodes long and the last two episodes were very horrible, i just gave up. man, take some art class or something and see how horrible it is, kyatsu

Perhaps you've missed something...

In every piece of animation without fail, there is always a moment or two where the animation quality lapses because you have a small army of animators, and they can't always draw it perfectly every time. Good examples in Macross include moments like when Hikaru sees Minmay and Kaifun kissing and goes on a rampage in the original Macross series, or when Basara's VF-19's face suddenly becomes distorted in a few episodes. Hell, you even see this kind of thing in Disney movies, and other professional, conventional animation. CGI is a quick fix, but periodically even then you get problems.

The animation quality overall in Macross II is good, considering it came right before using computer enhancement in the animation process was truly developed. There are one or two very brief lapses in quality, I'm thinking of two scenes in the last episode where the other Fairy squad members are fighting without Silvie, and there are some errors in the head and body of the VF-2SS for about two seconds. That aside, the animation quality's pretty good.

Granted, there are weak links in the voice acting too, but that again is nothing unique to Macross II. The Japanese voice acting is better than the english in most cases, especially in terms of Feff and Ingues. The Japanese voice actors did a little better job, but the quality is relatively consistant. You get little areas of bad quality in any animation project, EVA, Patlabor, Ghost in the Shell, you name it. These things are nothing new or unique, even in Macross. Many of the things that Kawamori put in the mouths of Basara, Mylene, and Gamlin would make a writer's brain twist, and makes me want to physically hurt the characters.

Granted again, the idea of a civilian reporter of moderate intellect and half-baked piloting talent flying directly into an enemy warship at the behest of the camera guy is more than a bit nuts, especially when he's not carrying any weapons. Though it is understandable, since Ishtar's ship was in a really bad way, full of holes from UN bombardment, and about to explode anyways. All told, Hibiki's actions aren't much out of line from some combat reporters I know personally, who do such stupid and reckless things for a good shot that they'd make even Hibiki blanch. Speaking from experience, combat field reporters are the third most stupid animals on Earth, beaten out only by lemmings and chickens.

And last but not least, before I wrap this up and get some much-needed and deserved rest, I turn my attention to the guy (I at least am presuming you are male, correct me if I'm wrong) named Retroborg. Dude, your enthusiasm is great and all, and that you love it so much warms my heart, but you can stop with the imageshack-hosted pictures any time now. Not only have we all seen these mecha before, but imageshack is a royal pain in the ass. If you've got something really relevant, use the attachments feature in your post instead. It's right under the post icons and post options section. It convienantly thumbnails and eliminates the need for a billion hyperlinks. Though if you really want to thrill to Macross II mecha that badly, when my site goes back online in a few days, we'll be showcasing some Macross II art that was made specifically for my site by a group of fanartists. One of the artists in question shows mad love for the Metal Siren and the destroids.

The Kaiba has spoken! (and is now off to sleep)

[DestroidDefender]

I too like MacII.

I guess i don't believe Kawamori = QUALITY macross.

Look. He is a cool mecha designer. But he can't plot a story anymore to save his soul. Escalflowne looked great but made no sense. Macross 7 was all over the map. We're all still scratching our heads over Mac Zero.

I's too bad Mac II was truncated and has poor animation/story telling in it's final episodes - but the original TV series really loses it's way in the final season. The last part of Mac Zero seems rushed and incomplete. And I still can't understand the Isamu's justification for blowing up a city at the end of Mac+. The wheels always seem to come off in the final act for Kawamori.

So no. I don't think Mac II should be dismissed because Kawamori was not involved.

[Oihan]

I won your argument for you?

You wanted to see movies that weren't predictable and wanted more originality because you were sick of seeing the same stuff with new people in it.

There are so few movies out there like The Usual Suspects and A Beautiful Mind (for examples) that keep you guessing till the very end or blow you away completely.

I'm always looking for more movies like them.

So don't automatically think the critics are wrong if they are jaded and want something completely different from what the fan of the original wanted. It's possible that people who liked the first, still like the first but they just want the second to not be a clone of the first. (and yet still enjoy the second as a stand alone thing even if it clones the first - it's a case of "I will see it anyway")

But I'm of the belief that once a story has been told it's been told. If you tell the same thing again that is when the cynism starts and people label it a cash cow. Ie gundam for eg.

Yeah ok so Hibiki isn't a fighter pilot the way Hikaru was (this was the thing I liked about the sequel that it saw things from a civilian perspective) but overall there were enough similarities between this and DYRL that you could say it cloned it.

390467[/snapback]

I once again have to disagree with you, but I'm not gonna change your mind about all of this and you sure as hell won't change my mind on all of this....

[Oihan]

Retroborg, trust me... none of this trivia/information/pictures is anything new. Pretty much everyone here (for better or worse) has seen MacII and knows pretty much everything there is to know about it. Glad you're enjoying yourself though.

Designs and music were passable. The story blows dead goats. It's a sad, sick, pathetic copy of the original DYRL story. Same bullsh!t, different people, different day. It was fine enough in the original DYRL, but "Lovers Again" falls WAY short. Throw another mysterious alien into a love triangle, add a very trans-sexual hair dresser, a female valkyrie pilot with hair WAY out of regs, and an entire society too stupid to even consider the significance of the UNS Macross. Most diehard Macross fans spend the entire series pulling their hair out wondering why the UN and the people in general can't seem to grasp the writing on the wall. There would've been important lessons learned after Space War I that would not have allowed for as many fu(k-ups as these guys had. "Lazy and complacent" my ass. The plot for just about every character is way underdeveloped (you had to work twice as hard at that when you're working with a 6-part OVA), with the possible exception of Ishtar. The subbed version was definately the better of the two to watch, as the dubbed voices are easilly some of the poorest matches in dubbed anime history (this coming from someone who is an advocate of dubs)

I, for one, am glad Kawamori had nothing to do with this series. It might've been good enough in it's own right, but it's hardly worthy of the "Macross" name. (and before you go on about me being close-minded, I should inform you that I consider myself otherwise, and it becomes evident when one learns what anime I watch besides Macross)

390792[/snapback]

IT'S A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT STORY. Where did you see the huge galactic fights in DYRL?? There were only the battles surrounding the SDF. I don't remember there being a huge force in DYRL? as compared to MII on Earth's side. I also didn't know that DYRL? had the 4/5/6 (I can't remember how many) Macross Canon type class ships. Where the hell is the reporter in DYRL?? Where are the brainwashed clones in stasis in DYRL?? I don't recall seeing Misa ever giving what might be her last words onto a recording. Where's the Meltrandri version of Ishtar? Was the SDF blown up in DYRL? I could probably go on a bit more too. YES, they have some of the same basic elements and plots, but THEY'RE TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT STORIES.

While we're at it, why don't we call Macross 7 a clone of Macross TV and DYRL?? They all use music in some form or another to defeat their enemies. (Who didn't see that one coming?) They all have Valkryies that they use to combat the enemy, who didn't see that coming? Don't forget the classic love triangles in Macross. All common themes in Macross:Music, Love, War, Valks. Should probably call Zero a clone too.

Edited April 16, 2006 by Oihan

[Wesker99]

Hey, rag on Macross II all you want. It may not be the greatest of the entire series, but now that I look back on it, if it wasn't for Macross II being released in the states, I'd probably be watching Robotech and not knowing the difference.

Like I said, it probably isn't the best Macross has to offer, but it was good enough to get me into it. And for that it will always hold a special place in my heart.

[Oihan]

Hey, rag on Macross II all you want.  It may not be the greatest of the entire series, but now that I look back on it, if it wasn't for Macross II being released in the states, I'd probably be watching Robotech and not knowing the difference.

Like I said, it probably isn't the best Macross has to offer, but it was good enough to get me into it.  And for that it will always hold a special place in my heart. 

391450[/snapback]

Same here

[Zinjo]

IIRC, the first four OVA episodes didn't catch on well, so they decided to just wrap it up with two more episodes and then later repackaged it as a long movie.  That would explain the huge animation drop in the last two episodes, and probably why a whole lot of cool opening sequence never made it into the animation.  It always seemed like the first four episodes were going to take this series into a good direction and the last two just turned it into DYRL?

390658[/snapback]

You could tell the story was meant to be longer. Far too many story threads were truncated:

1. What happened to Silvie & Nexx?

2. What happened to soften Slyvie toward Hibiki?

3. When did Hibiki realize he cared for Sylvie?

4. When did Ishtar fall for Hibiki?

5. When did Sylvie become a rival to Ishtar?

6. What is so dangerous about the Ship of the Alus that Ingues would mobilize such a huge fleet to destroy it?

etc.....

Those are just a few questions that were not answered because the story was so trucated in the last episodes.

[Macross_Fanboy]

My sincerest apologies... guess I'm still used to people saying that and actually meaning it. Especially this one recurring nightmare on my own site, USN Hornet Pilot aka Totsugeki Love Heart!!!!!, who says that pretty much hourly.

Hey guy! LOL! ANYWAYS, Macross II sucked, I liked the character designs and music, but the mecha were straight ugly and the UN was just plain awful unlike in the other shows. The movie put my brother to sleep and I tried my best to stay awake. I got no laughs from it...well at one point I kinda laughed after I saw the noticable decline in the animation quality. It was too long and didn't keep my interest since it's pretty much stuff I've already seen as some say it's a remake of DYRL? It took me a while to track it down and worst of all it was a waste of my 20 or 30 dollars and that was what I got? F-that! I don't quite remember the price of the thing but I know for sure that the store had a no-return policy once I opened it! Worst...Macross...EVER!!!!!

[Seto Kaiba]

My sincerest apologies... guess I'm still used to people saying that and actually meaning it. Especially this one recurring nightmare on my own site, USN Hornet Pilot aka Totsugeki Love Heart!!!!!, who says that pretty much hourly.

Hey guy! LOL! ANYWAYS, Macross II sucked, I liked the character designs and music, but the mecha were straight ugly and the UN was just plain awful unlike in the other shows. The movie put my brother to sleep and I tried my best to stay awake. I got no laughs from it...well at one point I kinda laughed after I saw the noticable decline in the animation quality. It was too long and didn't keep my interest since it's pretty much stuff I've already seen as some say it's a remake of DYRL? It took me a while to track it down and worst of all it was a waste of my 20 or 30 dollars and that was what I got? F-that! I don't quite remember the price of the thing but I know for sure that the store had a no-return policy once I opened it! Worst...Macross...EVER!!!!!

391880[/snapback]

I was wondering when you'd finally show up. You guys see what I gotta put up with? Irrational hatred of Macross II because Kawamori wasn't involved.

Personally, I'll always like Macross II better than the others because it was the first one I was ever really introduced to that wasn't named "Robotech" to begin with, and to me, the characters were easier to relate to, especially Feff. The mecha designs were defiantely another strong point that drew me to it. But the thing that really cinched it was Macross Plus and Macross 7. I really just can't stand the characters in Macross Plus, the relationships felt forced, and I really just didn't like the YF-21. Then there's the entirety of Macross 7, which I won't get into, for fear of starting a flame war.

[Phalanx]

I was wondering when you'd finally show up. You guys see what I gotta put up with? Irrational hatred of Macross II because Kawamori wasn't involved.

Personally, I'll always like Macross II better than the others because it was the first one I was ever really introduced to that wasn't named "Robotech" to begin with, and to me, the characters were easier to relate to, especially Feff. The mecha designs were defiantely another strong point that drew me to it. But the thing that really cinched it was Macross Plus and Macross 7. I really just can't stand the characters in Macross Plus, the relationships felt forced, and I really just didn't like the YF-21. Then there's the entirety of Macross 7, which I won't get into, for fear of starting a flame war.

391884[/snapback]

Seto, Im curious as to why do you hate the YF-21, is it because of it's design or whatever reasons you have? As for me, I honestly I like the charcater designs, the mecha of course and the story, of M2 butI'm not all that fond of Japanese music in the anime despite me being 1/5 Japanese myself but I do agree that the charcters have strong personalities that you can relate to and I feel like my personality is somewhat like Hibiki. As for Feff, he was my favorite villain because he was far more ambitious than some of the Zentraedi charcters in the original Macross series. As for M7. I still haven't seen it yet but I like the unique and creative concept that invloles them using sound force technology in the form of rock music to battle the Varauta but I'm not feeling the characters in the show. I guess it's because of the fact they're not true VF pilots but just half pilots and rock band members. I liked everything about Macross Plus and Isamu' personality reminds me of me sometimes becasue of the way he acts.

[Zinjo]

I was wondering when you'd finally show up. You guys see what I gotta put up with? Irrational hatred of Macross II because Kawamori wasn't involved.

391884[/snapback]

His mom dropped his grounding from the computer...

I prefer rational debates myself and there are plenty of posters here who are capable of such...

The rest just get ignored as children should be...

[Macross_Fanboy]

My sincerest apologies... guess I'm still used to people saying that and actually meaning it. Especially this one recurring nightmare on my own site, USN Hornet Pilot aka Totsugeki Love Heart!!!!!, who says that pretty much hourly.

Hey guy! LOL! ANYWAYS, Macross II sucked, I liked the character designs and music, but the mecha were straight ugly and the UN was just plain awful unlike in the other shows. The movie put my brother to sleep and I tried my best to stay awake. I got no laughs from it...well at one point I kinda laughed after I saw the noticable decline in the animation quality. It was too long and didn't keep my interest since it's pretty much stuff I've already seen as some say it's a remake of DYRL? It took me a while to track it down and worst of all it was a waste of my 20 or 30 dollars and that was what I got? F-that! I don't quite remember the price of the thing but I know for sure that the store had a no-return policy once I opened it! Worst...Macross...EVER!!!!!

391880[/snapback]

I was wondering when you'd finally show up. You guys see what I gotta put up with? Irrational hatred of Macross II because Kawamori wasn't involved.

Personally, I'll always like Macross II better than the others because it was the first one I was ever really introduced to that wasn't named "Robotech" to begin with, and to me, the characters were easier to relate to, especially Feff. The mecha designs were defiantely another strong point that drew me to it. But the thing that really cinched it was Macross Plus and Macross 7. I really just can't stand the characters in Macross Plus, the relationships felt forced, and I really just didn't like the YF-21. Then there's the entirety of Macross 7, which I won't get into, for fear of starting a flame war.

391884[/snapback]

I listed one really good reason why I hate Macross II, I didn't get my money's worth and I wasn't able to get it back. At the time I was unemployed so me losing 20 or 30 bucks when I could have invested it into something worthy, I have a pretty good reason to be pissed off and say what I saw about Macross II. And you not liking the YF-21/VF-22? I think in one of our chats you said something opposite to that. And it'll only turn into a flame war when Keith and AgentOne get in on this.

His mom dropped his grounding from the computer... 

I prefer rational debates myself and there are plenty of posters here who are capable of such...

The rest just get ignored as children should be...

Whoa there buddy, what are you trying to say???

Edited April 18, 2006 by Macross_Fanboy

[Oihan]

And it'll only turn into a flame war when Keith and AgentOne get in on this.

391930[/snapback]

Been there done that, next?

I am glad, however, to see more Macross II fans out there. Really didn't think there were that many on this forum. Glad I thought wrong though.

Edited April 18, 2006 by Oihan

[oreillyrel]

Just FYI the general accepted spelling is "Marduk" not "Mardook," as is seen throughout the subtitles. Most of the character and mecha names from the Marduk side of the war are barely veiled references to various gods, literature and other figures from the Babylon. Marduk being the chief god and having the largest of the cult followings right around the era of Hammurabi.

That is on Manga Entertainment's English subtitles, but that is not the correct spelling. The mythical Marduk is pronounced マルドゥク "Maruduku," but the Macross II Mardook is pronounced マルドゥーク "Maruduuku" with a longer "u" vowel. The Macross II Mardook is a homage to the historical Marduk, but it's pronounced and spelled differently. That's why it's written Mardook on all the official Japanese laser discs, DVDs, books, and so on.

The mythical Marduk

The Macross II Mardook

Ishtar's a promanent character in the epic of Gilgamesh (which happens to be the accepted name of Feff's power armor), etc. etc.

The "accepted" name is not the official name here either. The historical Gilgamesh is pronounced ギルガメシュ "Girugameshu," but the Macross II Gigamesh is pronounced ギガメッシュ "Gigamesshu." Like Mardook, the Macross II Gigamesh is a homage to the mythical Gilgamesh, but it's deliberately pronounced and spelled differently on all the official Japanese material.

The mythical Gilgamesh

The Macross II Gigamesh

[Seto Kaiba]

Okay, for starters, nice references and kudos on the Japanese lesson, but I think it might've been a little easier on everyone to provide the Wikipedia articles in english, since I'm not entirely sure how many of us actually read Japanese fluently, much less at all.

There's a reason that the accepted spelling is used a lot more often than the official one. It's strictly a matter of pronunciation. People don't feel comfortable groping around at words with strange spellings, so opting for something that is already at least moderately used in the English language makes it that much easier for people to muddle their way through the pronunciation. Take that and the fact that "Marduk" and "Mardook" sound virtually identical when spoken, and you've got pretty good reason for people remembering the common spelling more than the official one. It's also used that way on the vast majority of the websites that deal with Macross II, because of the prevalence of the Macross II RPG, which used the "Marduk" spelling.

Still, since they changed the spelling/pronunciation of "Marduk" and "Gilgamesh" it does lead you to wonder why the other major Babylonian reference, "Ishtar" got through relatively unscathed.

[Oihan]

Okay, for starters, nice references and kudos on the Japanese lesson, but I think it might've been a little easier on everyone to provide the Wikipedia articles in english, since I'm not entirely sure how many of us actually read Japanese fluently, much less at all.

There's a reason that the accepted spelling is used a lot more often than the official one. It's strictly a matter of pronunciation. People don't feel comfortable groping around at words with strange spellings, so opting for something that is already at least moderately used in the English language makes it that much easier for people to muddle their way through the pronunciation. Take that and the fact that "Marduk" and "Mardook" sound virtually identical when spoken, and you've got pretty good reason for people remembering the common spelling more than the official one. It's also used that way on the vast majority of the websites that deal with Macross II, because of the prevalence of the Macross II RPG, which used the "Marduk" spelling.

Still, since they changed the spelling/pronunciation of "Marduk" and "Gilgamesh" it does lead you to wonder why the other major Babylonian reference, "Ishtar" got through relatively unscathed.

392609[/snapback]

I just wanted to add/mention the subtitles too on the Macross II DVD.

[DestroidDefender]

I actually prefer Macross II and MegaZone 23 parts 1 and 2 over the "official" Macross 7 as continuations of the Macross story. But I would never rags on somebody that was enthusiastic for Macross 7. It's all subjective really. I hope we get more new quality Macross that emphasizes character and mecha and, yes, music but has a PLOT. The least you can say is Mac II has a storyline you can follow.

[oreillyrel]

Okay, for starters, nice references and kudos on the Japanese lesson, but I think it might've been a little easier on everyone to provide the Wikipedia articles in english, since I'm not entirely sure how many of us actually read Japanese fluently, much less at all.

Yeah, well, we're talking about indirect homages to Japanese pronunciations of myths originally written in Sumerian, so the English Wikipedia isn't much help. The best that the English Wikipedia can do is link us to the Japanese article:

English Wikipedia article

See "in other languages" section in the left column which goes to:

Japanese Wikipedia article

The bottom line is that the mythical Marduk is written one way, but Mardook in Macross II is written another way.

There's a reason that the accepted spelling is used a lot more often than the official one. It's strictly a matter of pronunciation. People don't feel comfortable groping around at words with strange spellings, so opting for something that is already at least moderately used in the English language makes it that much easier for people to muddle their way through the pronunciation. Take that and the fact that "Marduk" and "Mardook" sound virtually identical when spoken, and you've got pretty good reason for people remembering the common spelling more than the official one.

That may be a reason for using the wrong spelling at first, but not a good reason for hanging onto it once told of the official spelling. It's definitely not a reason to "correct" someone who was already using the official spelling by telling that person the wrong spelling instead--as one did in replying to the very first post on this thread.

It's also used that way on the vast majority of the websites that deal with Macross II, because of the prevalence of the Macross II RPG, which used the "Marduk" spelling.

Since when did an out-of-print overseas RPG carry more weight than Bandai Visual and the Macross II creators themselves? That's even further from the source than Manga Entertainment's release, which is already wrong in this particular instance.

Still, since they changed the spelling/pronunciation of "Marduk" and "Gilgamesh" it does lead you to wonder why the other major Babylonian reference, "Ishtar" got through relatively unscathed.

It's similar to how Jenius and Macross are spelled (and, likewise, pronounced) differently from their inspirations ("genius" and "Macbeth"), but Global is spelled like the English terms "global"--it's fine to have one direct homage, but three or even more direct homages might be pushing the suspense of disbelief.

[oreillyrel]

I just wanted to add/mention the subtitles too on the Macross II DVD. 

392716[/snapback]

And as mentioned above, Manga's Macross II subtitles are wrong in this case, compared to Bandai Visual's Macross II DVDs and the actual spoken dialogue on both.

Subtitles are not perfect, and it's wise not to assume so.

[Phalanx]

As for me, I can read, speak and write Japanese 85% fluently and Oihan is right with that katakana writing of the Marduk

[oreillyrel]

As for me, I can read, speak and write Japanese 85% fluently and Oihan is right with that katakana writing of the Marduk

392766[/snapback]

Just to clarify, you meant my katakana writing of Mardook and Gigamesh, right? No one else in this thread used katakana.

[Phalanx]

As for me, I can read, speak and write Japanese 85% fluently and Oihan is right with that katakana writing of the Marduk

392766[/snapback]

Just to clarify, you meant my katakana writing of Mardook and Gigamesh, right? No one else in this thread used katakana.

392767[/snapback]

Yes I mean you're writing is correct.

[Seto Kaiba]

Yeah, well, we're talking about indirect homages to Japanese pronunciations of myths originally written in Sumerian, so the English Wikipedia isn't much help. The best that the English Wikipedia can do is link us to the Japanese article:

English Wikipedia article

See "in other languages" section in the left column which goes to:

Japanese Wikipedia article

The bottom line is that the mythical Marduk is written one way, but Mardook in Macross II is written another way.

It's also used that way on the vast majority of the websites that deal with Macross II, because of the prevalence of the Macross II RPG, which used the "Marduk" spelling.

Since when did an out-of-print overseas RPG carry more weight than Bandai Visual and the Macross II creators themselves? That's even further from the source than Manga Entertainment's release, which is already wrong in this particular instance.

392761[/snapback]

Actually, you'll find that the english articles for Macross II and Marduk also carry the "Mardook" spelling. So using them might make things a little easier for those who aren't perfectly fluent in Japanese. I speak and read it pretty well, well enough to not make a fool of myself in public with it, but I wouldn't quite call myself totally fluent in it.

The out-of-print RPG books shouldn't carry more weight than Bandai Visual's official spelling for it, or the creator's official word on the matter. However, you do have to factor in that the vast majority of the webmasters who are putting content about Macross II on their sites are working with the materials they can lay hands on, which in this case happens to be that very same out of print RPG book series, and the DVD with the misspelling in the subtitles. Factor that in and it's small wonder why "Marduk" and "Mardook" are used interchangably by most sites. My own site has an article on it in the works, so it's not like I'm ignoring the matter either. The only sites that carry Macross II stuff that I'm aware of that actually use the Mardook spelling are the Macross Compendium and MAHQ.

Moving on...

Now now let's not flame Macross_Fanboy, he's not been grounded, he's just goofing off in Japan on the government's nickel. Personally I don't share his views on Macross 7. The mecha and story just seemed a little contrived to me. Especially the bit about the military entrusting a bunch of civilian musicians with extremely expensive military equipment, including variable fighters, and then pulling some pseudo-spiritual BS and taking the whole idea of using music in combat from simply singing at the enemy over the radio as a diversionary measure and psychological assault to the idea of using music itself as a weapon, by firing little speakers at the enemy. That's just stretching sanity a little bit.

Macross II does have a lot in common with DYRL, that's not being denied by anyone, but it does have unique elements of it's own.

[Ginrai]

Just because it's the official Japanese spelling and whatever does not mean they actually were able to spell what they were -trying- to spell. How many cases of Engrish have we seen, kids?

Furthermore, ancient Sumerian != English, so the common English version is probably not any more a correct representation of the ancient Sumerian either. I bet you ten bucks their language is not Germanic like English.

Megazone 23's official spellings for lots of things are totally wrong. There's a jet that's clearly supposed to be Pluto which gets all kinds of weird stuff like Pludo and such.

When you're talking about an English language version of a Japanese language version of an ancient Sumerian version it's hard to know exactly what they were going for. I don't blame the English translators for using the "correct" weird as far as they were concerned.

[Skull Leader]

It's also used that way on the vast majority of the websites that deal with Macross II, because of the prevalence of the Macross II RPG, which used the "Marduk" spelling.

392609[/snapback]

*flinch* I figured you'd be above a fallacy like this one...

Nothing in the MacII RPG books should be accepted in any way as canon. Kevin Siembieda took a great number of liberties (lncluding a couple of mecha names) with the material he was given (a half-translated copy of the "This is Animation Special" book). Same goes for any kind of stats. They were mutilated to better fit in with his bastardized RPG system, he pretty much re-molded MacII to be compatible with his little world.

[Seto Kaiba]

Nothing in the MacII RPG books should be accepted in any way as canon. Kevin Siembieda took a great number of liberties (lncluding a couple of mecha names) with the material he was given (a half-translated copy of the "This is Animation Special" book). Same goes for any kind of stats. They were mutilated to better fit in with his bastardized RPG system, he pretty much re-molded MacII to be compatible with his little world.

393137[/snapback]

Buddy, knowing Kevin and his writing style as well as I do, I can tell you right now that I have NEVER treated his RPG books as a canon source of information on the mecha, characters or anything else in Macross II. On multiple occasions I've sat down to have a chat with the good folks at Palladium Books about it, and to start to put right what they put wrong. It's not like they did it out of malice, or in some attempt to ruin Macross II, their goal was to provide a RPG that was within the constraints of the Macross II timeline and mecha, and be as close to canon as possible while still providing a game that was both enjoyable and fair. So I do think you may be judging them a little harshly. All told they did us all a minor service in those books by using selected art from the "THIS IS ANIMATION SPECIAL" on Macross II, making it much much easier to find.

Here's a few examples of some of the things I've put right using the available canon materials, common sense, and a healthy dash of mathematics and some evidence from the animation:

The size of the Heracles class carrier, as listed in his books, is 305m long. This blatantly contradicts obvious evidence in the anime itself, namely several shots of the Heracles class sitting in port next to a Zentradi carrier, a Quiltra Queleual class carrier, and two of the UN Spacy frigates, all of which are nearly the same size as the Quiltra Queleual. That puts their sizes respectively around 3000m long each. Calculating backwards from other visual evidence of known scale, including the size of mecha making suicide runs on them, gives me a similarly large answer.

The size of the Macross Cannon, which is listed as a little under 500m contradicts all the visible evidence, including shots of it docked with a mobile fortress identical to that used by Bodolzaa during the original series, and the idea of it having four Nupetiet Vergnitz prows for guns. My calculations and estimates put it at being about 4800m long.

So you see Skull Leader, I'm well aware Kevin's material isn't canon, and I know full well the huge number of problems he introduced. That's why I've made it my own little quest, so to speak, to correct what he's put wrong, and provide a more realistic estimate of the mecha, characters and weaponry based on the animation and more credible canon sources, including the "This is Animation Special" book on Macross II.

The problem is that while I and most of you might know that his material isn't canon, and in many cases doesn't make sense (like saying the Macross Cannon can't fly in atmosphere and on the next page printing art of it flying through the clouds), there are a lot of people out there who haven't got all the evidence in front of them, and so end up using the Palladium Books RPG as their main resource, simply because it's easier to find and read than the "This is Animation Special" volume on Macross II. The art is still perfectly good, since it's mostly taken from the Animation Special book anyways, but it's the stats that are the sticky subject and lead to the majority of sites using the "Marduk" spelling.

Edited April 22, 2006 by Seto Kaiba

[azrael]

...

So you see Skull Leader, I'm well aware Kevin's material isn't canon, and I know full well the huge number of problems he introduced. That's why I've made it my own little quest, so to speak, to correct what he's put wrong, and provide a more realistic estimate of the mecha, characters and weaponry based on the animation and more credible canon sources, including the "This is Animation Special" book on Macross II.

The problem is that while I and most of you might know that his material isn't canon, and in many cases doesn't make sense ...

393219[/snapback]

Yes, well...have fun on your quest to correct everybody. I'm sure you'll have lots of fun doing it.

BTW...I thought this thread was about appreciating MII (and in some cases, why you didn't like it or in comparison to other Macross titles), not about correcting translations or people.

[Seto Kaiba]

Yes, well...have fun on your quest to correct everybody. I'm sure you'll have lots of fun doing it.

393229[/snapback]

I never said I was on a quest to correct everybody, I'm just working to provide the most complete set of information possible for the enjoyment of the fans of Macross II. The unavailability of good Macross II websites and information is a sticking point for a lot of fans that want to know more about the series, and providing accurate, canon information is tied into that as well.

Sorry we got a little off topic. But you can only say so much about "I like Macross II because" before it gets really old, and talking more about the series in detail is definately helping keep the thread moving. So long as I'm here and Azrael's asking to get back on topic, I'll give this thread a kick more towards the spirit of the original post. I'd be interested to hear from all of you what your favorite mecha is from Macross II, and why.

Personally I rather like the Gigamesh flown by Feff. Taken with the more conventional designs used by the UN and the Zentradi, the Mardook's one or two new types of mecha definately deserved more screen time than they got. Feff's personal Gigamesh just has such an utterly malevolent fell to it, from the obsidian-black faceplate with the glowing red eyes, to the fact that the thing is bristling with close combat weapons, like the extendable fingers, toes and wings, and the missile launchers hidden in the forearms. It's got a lot more of an organic feeling to it than the Nosjadeul Ger or Queadluun Rau. Can't say I care much for the generic head for it, which had that odd little beak, but the Feff variant was something that needed more screen time than it got.

That aside, the revision to the Nosjadel Ger was nice for the Zentradi, gave it a more streamlined feeling, and made it look a little more organic and alien, and a little less mechanical. Same general mecha, just looks a little more like a blend between the original Queadluun Rau and Nosjadeul Ger models, with those large engines behind the shoulder joint, and the slightly less pronounced head.

Edited April 22, 2006 by Seto Kaiba

[jenius]

My 2 cents (worth nothing, off vague recollection):

1) The mech designs were nice but needed a bit more face time, especially the metal siren. That's not to say it wasn't on screen enough but more to say that when the show was over I couldn't accurately visualize what some of the mechs had looked like. Usually this is because, when the mech is on screen, it's zipping around and involved in such flurries that I don't get to truly appreciate it's aesthetics. This probably relates to the limited episode count.

2) The dub is BAD. There are scenes where people have HUGE pauses for no apparent reason. The old report will tell Hibiki something like "You... don't know... what... it's like out... there." Seriously dude, spit it out.

3) The ending - been there, done that, thank you for adding nothing compelling. At least Ingues was a big departure... oh wait, no he was almost the exact same villain as the DYRL villain and he was doing almost the exact same thing. In DYRL the SDF-1 is beat up from the final assualt.. the big difference in MacII is that it's almost entirely destroyed. Not a big enough difference in my book.

4) How dumb was the whole Hibiki being a reporter who gets an enemy emulator plot? Ouch, that was painfully bad. Not quite Basara bad, but still super bad.

5) The Metal Siren was TOO cool. It was the typical invincible super mech that shows up and saves the day. Granted, it didn't entirely save the day but still, it seemed nearly capable. "Transforming from Battloid to God mode!"

MacII is better than Mac7 so anyone who thinks Kawamori was needed can sit on it and spin. I feel like I enjoy all of Macross but the only two shows I would tell any casual cartoon fan they NEED to see out of the Macross universe are the original TV series and DYRL. Everything since has been pretty iffy (except the mech designs which, with the exception of the Mac7 sound force, have been GREAT).