Macross Ii Anime Film Awesome! *heavy Spoilers!*

[retroborg]

I watched Macross II Movie (DVD) and I must say it was a fantastic film, a true masterpiece!

Here are my thoughts and feelings about the film.

It featured everything a self respecting Anime should deliver.

Awesome animation, epic intergalactic battles, a dramatic / sad story line / plot and a fantastic sound track.

The voice acting in both the US & Japanese versions were very well performed, but my favorite factor in the film was its music.

When Hibiki takes Ishtar to the Moon festival and they listen to Wendy’s Love Song for the first time, with all the fans cheering inside the amphitheatre under the glass dome and the flagship Gloria in orbit, was my favorite moment by far!

I love Lady Ishtar’s ecstatic expressions of joy and happiness. She then reveals her wish to Hibiki, which was to sing the song of love to her own people and bring them peace.

Later on, another very dramatic and shocking moment was when Ishtar starts singing the song of love at the Alus Nova chamber inside the alien flagship, (Sarride) bringing confusion to the Zendraedi soldiers. The outraged Emperor then orders the executioner death ship to cleanse the polluted flagship by blasting it with its laser beams.

Lord Feff and Lady Ishtar, manage to fly out of the doomed flagship inside a battle Mech, just in the brink of time!

As they watch the large nuclear explosion of the Sarride from afar, Ishtar cries for the loss of lady Elensh, but Lord Feff replies:

“Behold, Ishtar…This is the will of Ingues, lord emperor of the Mardook. And this is the result of what you have done!â€

The order given by the Emperor to his soldiers is equally dramatic (And very Japanese in style if I may say so)

"Soldiers sworn to the Mardook discipline… In the name of our culture, crush these arrogant vermin!

In this universe nothing exists which can overpower us!

Therefore, resisting our conquest is impossible.

In the name of the Mardook, destroy!"

The final battle between the U.N Spacey forces and the Mardook fleet is one of the best in any Macross / Robotech film.

The music used for the battle scene is just perfect, as you watch the ships mobilizing for the imminent battle to come!

The two huge fleets engage in a devastating clash, in close proximity to the moon’s orbit.

At first impression, it would seem that the earth’s fleet gains the upper hand by wiping out 60% of the Mardook fleet in a single blow after using four Macross cannons, but all of a sudden, a huge wave of enemy ships de-folds and begins hammering the outnumbered earth fleet with a devastating laser storm!

The entire fleet, the Macross Cannons & the Gloria Flagship it self are destroyed!

What’s interesting is that the Earth side fleets, in all the battles that take place in the film; consist almost primarily of old Zendraedi style battle cruisers also seen in the older Macross DYRL film & the Robotech series.

An apocalyptic dialogue that reveals the true feelings of Lord Feff for Lady Ishtar, takes place at the hangar of the Mardook command ship.

Lord Feff releases Ishtar, but before she leaves, he tells her:

"I know no other life but one of a proud Mardook soldier, in service to lord Emperor Ingues.

I will only cease fighting at my death.

Ishtar you must leave now before I regain my senses.

And remember what is my sworn duty. To the Mardook you died by my hand.

No one will know my failure that I dare to love above my people."

Finally, at the earth’s siege, in the last decisive battle over the scourged earth landscape, Ishtar sings the song of hope and sends to everyone the gentleness of her own heart and saves her people from the dictator.

I find Wendy Ryder’s love song (Japanese) (At the Moon festival) better than Minmay’s “Do you Remember Love†song from Macross DYRL and superior to the English translated version “We Will Win†song, from Harmony’s Gold Robotech series imo.

Same goes for “The Hush of Two Hundred Million Years†intro song (Japanese) compared to Macross DYRL & Robotech intros imo.

Overall, Macross II is definitely one of the best Anime films and should be placed in the hall of all time classics!

Lady Ishtar

Macross VF:

Lord Feff and Lady Ishtar at the Hangar:

Lord Emperor Ingues

Lady Ishtar Concept Art.

SDF-1 Fortress

A few nice Wallpapers / Flyers:

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/2453/ishtari4wo.jpg

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/2638/macross53b4eh.jpg

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/5774/ishtarblue10249ke.jpg

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/7007/ishtar14oy.jpg

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/6875/macross11b2jn.jpg

[fansubs2000]

Macross II........

No Kawamori = not Macross

[Seto Kaiba]

Macross II........

No Kawamori = not Macross 

390249[/snapback]

Now there's a closed-minded statement if ever I read one. It's exactly this sort of reasoning that prevents them from enjoying one of the better Macross features out there. Try watching it with an open mind, and you might actually like it.

Being a pretty big Macross II fan myself, I'd say that the voice acting was mostly good, but there were one or two weak bits in Japanese (in some scenes Feff's voice completely lacks the emotion on his face). There's also one or two scenes where the animation quality isn't quite up to snuff with the average quality of the series, but most of them are short bits and near the end too.

Just FYI the general accepted spelling is "Marduk" not "Mardook," as is seen throughout the subtitles. Most of the character and mecha names from the Marduk side of the war are barely veiled references to various gods, literature and other figures from the Babylon. Marduk being the chief god and having the largest of the cult followings right around the era of Hammurabi. Ishtar's a promanent character in the epic of Gilgamesh (which happens to be the accepted name of Feff's power armor), etc. etc. The Macross II RPG books attempt to delve into why the Marduk seem to follow a Babylonian theme, but such isn't canon.

About Ingues giving the orders to destroy rebellious elements of his own fleet... maybe it's just me, but the overall sound of his voice in Japanese sounds a lot like the old WW2 era recordings of Adolf Hitler's public speeches. You also get another kind of creepy deja vu moment when the Marduk battlepods ram down the twin towers of the UN Headquarters buildings.

Your enthusiasm for Macross II is greatly appreciated, by me at least. Macross II doesn't get quite as much love as the other series on this site, for a variety of reasons. There'll also be a few like fansubs2000, who turn up their noses at it simply because Kawamori wasn't involved. You'd probably feel right at home on my site as well, where I'm rebuilding my somewhat modest collections of Macross II mecha art, character art, etc. so that Macross II can get a little more exposure.

I'd say that placing songs like "Only your friend" (Wendy's song from the Moon Festival), Ishtar's final song "Love You," and "The Hush of 200 Million Years" might be a little generous. They're good songs, and I definately think some of the more orchestral stuff is worthy of notice too. Putting them above a classic like "Do you remember love?" might be a little drastic, but nearly every song in any Macross series is better than the swill that ended up in Robotech.

Still, the Valkyrie II, the Gilgamesh power armor, and the other mecha from Macross II are some of the best I've seen. (Attached is a nice little bit I've been using for an avatar on MSN, Feff's custom Gilgamesh, from one of it's more malevolent looking scenes).

[zeo-mare]

I also agree, even if Kawamori was not involved i do like the movie, it has some of my favorite designs, i really really wish they would make a new Valkyrie II kit i prefer the japanese version over the USA one, the dubbing is horrible and i cannot stand the voices. but i do like the movie alot. i even still have the old comic books from when they were first released

[fansubs2000]

Macross II........

No Kawamori = not Macross 

390249[/snapback]

Now there's a closed-minded statement if ever I read one. It's exactly this sort of reasoning that prevents them from enjoying one of the better Macross features out there. Try watching it with an open mind, and you might actually like it.

390255[/snapback]

Dude that was a joke....

I was quoting this old poll:

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...topic=14098&hl=

In reality I'm a consumor whore who buys and enjoys anything Macross!

[Phalanx]

Macross 2 IMHO was fairly decent in terms of the storyline. I saw it for the first time two years ago around this time of month on the Encore channel's Animidnight block. IMHO, I also thought that the voice acting was decent for all of the characters and I thought it was rather interesting the way how the Marduk actually spoke in their native toungue because there' no other Macross series out there that did that I think. However, to be honest with you, I mainly liked Macross 2 because of the mecha and like zeo mare, I agree that they should produce toys and model kits of the VF-2SS as well as the other valks.

[retroborg]

Macross II........

No Kawamori = not Macross 

390249[/snapback]

Now there's a closed-minded statement if ever I read one. It's exactly this sort of reasoning that prevents them from enjoying one of the better Macross features out there. Try watching it with an open mind, and you might actually like it.

Being a pretty big Macross II fan myself, I'd say that the voice acting was mostly good, but there were one or two weak bits in Japanese (in some scenes Feff's voice completely lacks the emotion on his face). There's also one or two scenes where the animation quality isn't quite up to snuff with the average quality of the series, but most of them are short bits and near the end too.

Just FYI the general accepted spelling is "Marduk" not "Mardook," as is seen throughout the subtitles. Most of the character and mecha names from the Marduk side of the war are barely veiled references to various gods, literature and other figures from the Babylon. Marduk being the chief god and having the largest of the cult followings right around the era of Hammurabi. Ishtar's a promanent character in the epic of Gilgamesh (which happens to be the accepted name of Feff's power armor), etc. etc. The Macross II RPG books attempt to delve into why the Marduk seem to follow a Babylonian theme, but such isn't canon.

About Ingues giving the orders to destroy rebellious elements of his own fleet... maybe it's just me, but the overall sound of his voice in Japanese sounds a lot like the old WW2 era recordings of Adolf Hitler's public speeches. You also get another kind of creepy deja vu moment when the Marduk battlepods ram down the twin towers of the UN Headquarters buildings.

Your enthusiasm for Macross II is greatly appreciated, by me at least. Macross II doesn't get quite as much love as the other series on this site, for a variety of reasons. There'll also be a few like fansubs2000, who turn up their noses at it simply because Kawamori wasn't involved. You'd probably feel right at home on my site as well, where I'm rebuilding my somewhat modest collections of Macross II mecha art, character art, etc. so that Macross II can get a little more exposure.

I'd say that placing songs like "Only your friend" (Wendy's song from the Moon Festival), Ishtar's final song "Love You," and "The Hush of 200 Million Years" might be a little generous. They're good songs, and I definately think some of the more orchestral stuff is worthy of notice too. Putting them above a classic like "Do you remember love?" might be a little drastic, but nearly every song in any Macross series is better than the swill that ended up in Robotech.

Still, the Valkyrie II, the Gilgamesh power armor, and the other mecha from Macross II are some of the best I've seen. (Attached is a nice little bit I've been using for an avatar on MSN, Feff's custom Gilgamesh, from one of it's more malevolent looking scenes).

390255[/snapback]

Thanks for the cool & very informative reply!

Nice to meet another open minded Anime Fan.

I enjoyed this film because it was simply a very nice & enjoyable anime and even though I’m big Macross fan, I never knew who Kawamori was until now!

So I wouldn’t care if he was involved in this film or not really!

By the way, I'm interesting in getting the Macross II soundtrack, primarily for these 3 Japanese songs:

"Only your friend" (Wendy's song from the Moon Festival)

Ishtar's final song "Love You,"

"The Hush of 200 Million Years"

I found this Macross II soundtrack:

http://www.rightstuf.com/cgi-bin/catalogmg...tem/48677/4/0/0

Track Listing:

A Hush Like 200 Million Years (Mika Kaneko) 4:25

Marduk 1:04

Scooper 2:03

Crisis 1:35

Banana Moon of Love (Yuka Sato) 4:05

The Mysterious Energy Goes Out of Control 1:07

Lovers 1:18

Operation-200 2:32

Emulator 1:41

The Ship of the Alus 2:03

Riding in Your Valkyrie (Tomoyo Sato) 4:02

The Distant Macross 3:04

Alzan ee Arth-glorg: "Destroy All!" 2:35

Parting 0:49

For Now, A Friend (Tomoyo Sato) 5:59

Young Blood 3:13

All Out War 2:46

Ishtar 2:07

Deja Vu - Stay With Me (Mika Kaneko) 4:47

But apart for "A Hush Like 200 Million Years" I don't see the other 2 mentioned in the track listing?

Doesn't this specific CD have all the Japanese songs from the Anime?

Any help will be highly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Edited April 12, 2006 by retroborg

[terry the lone wolf]

I was and still am a fan of MAC II but I have the old VHS dub can someone recommend the DVD for me. Also, wasn't the final song called "Sayonara Love"?

[armentage]

Holy 16 years ago.

That's blathering fanboy spew if I ever saw it, but geez... 16 years later??

It's like watching the first episode of Friend's and screaming out to the world that it's the best TV show EVER!

Actually worse, since this is MacII we're talking about. It's more like going crazy after having seen "Top of the Heap".

[Zinjo]

Armentage I'm sure there's a Kawamori thread somewhere for you to lurk in... Makes me wonder if you are so quick to flame the old guard about a 23 year old TV show too?

Anyway, I too appreciate the Mac II mecha and particularly the fresh premise it took.

However, after enjoying the collected works of the Macross universe (yes even Mac 7 ), I now wished the Marduk were the Supervision Army since there are so many similarities between the two.

I would also like to see what the "full" story would have been because it is obvious (to me anyway) that the show was meant to be more than only 6 episodes.

Too many story threads seemed rushed or incomplete.

It may not be the best Macross series out there; "Macross Plus" and "Macross Zero" come to mind for that distinction, but it is good in it's own right considering it was based entirely on the series and the DYRL movie.

Macross 2 had a story with immense potential and damn fine looking Mecha and I still enjoy it, even with it's flaws.

Edited April 12, 2006 by Zinjo

[Seto Kaiba]

Dude that was a joke.... 

I was quoting this old poll:

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...topic=14098&hl=

In reality I'm a consumor whore who buys and enjoys anything Macross!

390261[/snapback]

My sincerest apologies... guess I'm still used to people saying that and actually meaning it. Especially this one recurring nightmare on my own site, USN Hornet Pilot aka Totsugeki Love Heart!!!!!, who says that pretty much hourly.

For starters, there are actually two volumes of the soundtrack floating around. What you have there is Volume I, which was released in the United States, and has a different label for the stateside release, in a blue case with a watercolor of Wendy and Ishtar on the front. Volume II I don't believe was released stateside, has Feff and Ishtar on the cover, and has most of the orchestral tracks, as well as the full and reprise versions of the ending theme, without the annoying english lyrics. Regrettably I don't have time to translate all the track names right now, since my copy's liner is printed in Japanese. If you're looking to get your hands on them both, may I recommend Amazon.com, which is where I got some copies of both volumes for a very good price.

Mr. Holy 16 years ago, it's 14 years, do the math please. Macross II was a 1992-93 affair, which puts it at 14 years ago. And you have to remember that unlike televised runs-forever swill like Friends, later eps of The Simpsons, and Seinfeld, most anime doesn't get that kind of televised exposure over here, so unlike those american shows, when someone finds it it IS new to them, because they've likely never seen it before and possibly never even heard of it before. People here still gush over anime they just saw, even when it's 20 years old or more!

Retroborg, my pleasure to continue to be informative. Hopefully in a few days my website will take over being excessively informative for me, now that I've got my computer back from the shop. If you're up for a little more Macross II-y goodness, you can look into the comic series Macross II: The Micron Conspiracy, the Palladium Books Macross II: The Role-Playing Game and the MAME32-based Macross II arcade emulator.

Edited April 12, 2006 by Seto Kaiba

[Mr March]

Mr. Holy 16 years ago, it's 14 years, do the math please.

390342[/snapback]

Omg, LOL :)

[Roy Focker]

No Kawamori = No Macross.

Yeah I agree. Kawamori is the author of Macross and his vision or his named heirs (trying to get him to adopt me) have the final say on what is Macross.

Macross still is a decent production. It looks and feels like Macross. Might just be a remake of DYRL but I enjoyed when I first saw it. Mikimoto still did the character designs. My only real beef about it was the cheaper lower quality art in the final episode.

[Roy Focker]

PS:

Heavy Spoilers?

I think most have seen it already. This isn't like talking about the third episode of Macross Zero just 24 hours of its release.

[Zinjo]

PS:

Heavy Spoilers?

I think most have seen it already.  This isn't like talking about the third episode of Macross Zero just 24 hours of its release.

390389[/snapback]

Please see Seto Kaiba's response...

[Oihan]

Another Macross II fan! $$$ I'm stoked to see our numbers growing! Welcome to MW! I whole heartedly agree with you on all accounts about the anime! However, I have a few different favorite moments. My 3 favorite scenes are as follows:

First favorite scene happens to be at 1:21:21 - 1:22:24 chapter 8. "Futari" kicks in and we see the softer side of Silvie as she talks to Hibiki. She then gives what she thought could have been her 'last report' on camera. It gives me goose bumps every time I watch it.

Second favorite scene happens to be at 1:48:52 - 1:50:27 chapter 10. Ishtar sings 'the Song of the Alus', or "Anata o kanjite-iru - Mia Santi Ren", and we see Hibiki giving what's to be his last report, as he falls apart inside. Then the Macross discharges some energy and we eventually see Exxegran and Sylvie for a few seconds, then Isthar, then Ingus sensing(?) the 'Alus'. It gives me this sense of "this is humanity’s last hope†kind of feeling. This scene also gives me goose bumps.

Third favorite scene happens at 0:49:48 - 0:53:05 chapter 5. "Ark of Alus" starts playing in the background; Hibiki and Ishtar go to the Macross and Ishtar goes on to talk about her people and her beliefs.

Despite loving the whole series/movie as a whole, the music is probably my most favorite thing about Macross II. Hiroko Kasahara (Ishtar) has such a beautiful voice, and Shiro Sagisu's BGM score is SUPERB (CAN'T GO WRONG WITH SHIRO SAGISU!). A lot Macross fans on this forum dislike Macross II; but I'm slowly starting to see more and more coming around (coming to their senses ).

The song you speak of at the 'earth's siege' is titled "Mou Ichido Love You." You can find it on the Macross II OST Volume 2 CD. "Kizuna" is another good BGM track, it's played during the kiss scene between Hibiki and Sylvie. "Banana Moon Love," played during the Minmay attack scene, is another good song, however not sung by Hiroko Kasahara. I think the song you speak of at the Festival is called "Only Your Friend." It can be found on the first OST. If isn't it then it's "Riding in Your Valkyrie" which is played before "Only Your Friend."

Note: I have yet to read the rest of the replies, if someone's already gone over the songs and all that jazz, sorry.

Edited April 12, 2006 by Oihan

[Oihan]

I was and still am a fan of MAC II but I have the old VHS dub can someone recommend the DVD for me. Also, wasn't the final song called "Sayonara Love"?

390269[/snapback]

The final song played during the credits? If so, it's "Promise." Or are you talking about the song Ishtar sings at the final battle? If that's the case it's "Mou Ichido Love You."

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

*drools*

Now that's what an alien woman should look like. Mikimoto is really good at drawing girls eh? If you didn't get a stiff dick perving at Ishtar and that red haired chic in gundam 0080: "war in the pocket" then there is seriously something wrong with you. What we need is an ishtar apreciation thread of pics dedicated to her.

Oh and retroborg if you were a fan of technoman look for his cameo appearance in the crowd. Blade lives in the macross II universe! He could have wiped out the aliens but chose to let humans get destroyed. Really disturbing..

As for the haters: I think it is mainly because the sequel didn't do anything ambitious to further macross. It was essentially the same thing packaged in new wrapping. Which isn't necesarily a bad thing if that is what you want. (yes that is what I want)

But it takes more imagination to create something new each time right?

I mean for crying out loud they even had a Roy clone who drinks while on duty and dies dramatically, same as roy in DYRL. Couldn't they have come up with an original character?

[Oihan]

Now that's what an alien woman should look like. Mikimoto is really good at drawing girls eh? If you didn't get a stiff dick perving at Ishtar and that red haired chic in gundam 0080: "war in the pocket" then there is seriously something wrong with you. What we need is an ishtar apreciation thread of pics dedicated to her.

Oh and retroborg if you were a fan of technoman look for his cameo appearance in the crowd. Blade lives in the macross II universe! He could have wiped out the aliens but chose to let humans get destroyed. Really disturbing.. 

As for the haters: I think it is mainly because the sequel didn't do anything ambitious to further macross. It was essentially the same thing packaged in new wrapping. Which isn't necesarily a bad thing if that is what you want. (yes that is what I want)

But it takes more imagination to create something new each time right?

I mean for crying out loud they even had a Roy clone who drinks while on duty and dies dramatically, same as roy in DYRL. Couldn't they have come up with an original character?

390441[/snapback]

I've heard it all about Macross II being a DYRL? rehash (especially from Keith back on AFM). Sure, it has the same elements and plots, BUT it's a COMPLETELY different story.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I've heard it all about Macross II being a DYRL? rehash (especially from Keith back on AFM). Sure, it has the same elements and plots, BUT it's a COMPLETELY different story.

But there's nothing worse than knowing exactly what happens in the end and how it is going to happen. It's the danger of a sequel when they don't add twists to keep an audience guessing.

Take the movie aliens for example: they gave us a queen alien, they made the android trustworthy,(not expected an android would save ripley due to what happened in the first movie) and you constantly had to guess who was going to die and who was going to live. So when you see it you can't say the sequel is doing the same thing as the original. You genuinely want to keep watching to see how it all turns out and who survives because it is not certain how things will turn out till you are sitting there and the credits roll. A sequel should take what worked well and expand on it rather than redo the whole thing again to reinvent the wheel.

Anyway I enjoyed it but the ending especially reminded me of DYRL. Substitute ishtar on the sdf1 for minmay. (both standing on the exact spot) And have the aliens turn against thier leader again. A mainstream audience would roll thier eyes while the fan would be excited.

What would have been interesting to me was if earth actually got destroyed or captured and survivors contacted for outside help and there was some kind of resistance or something. Then have ishstar live on earth as a human and have her create music herself or something. Maybe the aliens hear it, sympathise with her and start creating thier own songs and the mind control slowly wears off. Resistance grows and outside help comes to take out the leader while rogues loyal to the leader escape. Of course these rogues have been contaminated but don't care about the music or the mind control. (there will always be people who music won't work on) The ending won't be so happy this time. It will be a slight victory and the lesson of the show would be: humans can't be so complacent. And we would see casualties of the war. (zentradi would go back to thier warlike ways and slowly realise that maybe humans really are weak for being so careless, so they join up and train thier asses off to become soldiers, but without the mind control or blind loyalty to stupid warrior codes, just as protectors) And the military would also be forced to tell the damn truth and people would allow more funding for creation of new weapons which keeps the ending open-ended rather than enjoying peace and being relaxed.

Maybe the sequel could have been the counter point to the first movie. (where minmay sings and all is well with the world - remember people in the movie had a cynical attitude that such a simple thing could work)

Edited April 13, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Oihan]

I've heard it all about Macross II being a DYRL? rehash (especially from Keith back on AFM). Sure, it has the same elements and plots, BUT it's a COMPLETELY different story.

But there's nothing worse than knowing exactly what happens in the end and how it is going to happen. It's the danger of a sequel when they don't add twists to keep an audience guessing.

Take the movie aliens for example: they gave us a queen alien, they made the android trustworthy again, and you constantly had to guess who was going to die and who was going to live. So when you see it you can't say the sequel is doing the same thing as the original. You genuinely want to keep watching to see how it all turns out and who survives because it is not certain how things will turn out till you are sitting there and the credits roll.

390448[/snapback]

You honestly saw them completely destroying the Macross there at the end? When you saw Macross II for the first time, were you thinking DRYL? or what? Assuming you hadn't read anything about Macross II at the time, that is. And what you said about Aliens could be said for any movie out there. There are only so many outcomes. Good guys win or the Bad guys win. He gets the girl or he doesn't. There are so few movies out there like The Usual Suspects and A Beautiful Mind (for examples) that keep you guessing till the very end or blow you away completely. If I'm wrong in that statement please do correct me, I'm always looking for more movies like them.

Edited April 13, 2006 by Oihan

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

There are only so many outcomes.

But that's just it: if you repeat the same thing over again people won't go to see a sequel anymore if you don't expand on the original. You've just won my argument for me. If you go towards 1 or the other rather than an outome that is unexpected movies are too predictable. Aliens wasn't because the bad guys were the humans as well as the aliens.

For example in diehard we all were at the edge of our seats because the main character was in a losing position. the bad guy looked like he was going to win because he had the hostages and the automatic weapons. We don't know what is going to happen and there is a sense of danger because the hero isn't a "hero" (like arnie in commando) has no proper training and this is what makes the movie interesting because you can relate to the character.

Now if you were to make a sequel doing the exact same thing don't you think you would be rolling your eyes in your head?? Everywhere the main chracter goes there are hostage situations. Too much coincidence. And frankly that just isn't realistic to me. It would as a mainstream movie goer (and not a fan of a franchise or series) seem like a cash cow attempt to capitalise on the success of the first movie.

Same thing with later rocky movies. I loved the first one because it tells a story of an underdog given a chance. But when you do the same thing over again but with different people it really loses the impact that it had when you saw it first time. Audiences are smart. But 'fans' (fans = fanatics) of the original tend not to care so they keep watching the sequels.(as opposed to your mum, your dad, your best friend who might not be a 'fan' but had just watched something "as a movie" rather than as a "franchise".)

The did a good thing with even the second terminator movie: no longer was Sara a victim but she became strong and this was enough of a realistic change that the tone of the movie changed alot from the first. It wasn't terminator 1 with new characters, it was a new theme altogether where the terminator was merely a tool used by good guys against bad guys who were created by the good guys in the first place. The first movie was a good vs evil, the second tried to point out where did the source of that come from. (who creates these weapons? the military who got careless and almost ended the world)

For people who want more of the same thing more power to you. But for a mainstream audience they have a different more cynical attitude to watching something and lose interest more easily if they think they've seen something like it before. If a story is predictable and has the exact same message or ending as the first movie it loses impact.

Edited April 13, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Oihan]

There are only so many outcomes.

But that's just it: if you repeat the same thing over again people won't go to see a sequel anymore if you don't expand on the original. You've just won my argument for me. If you go towards 1 or the other rather than an outome that is unexpected movies are too predictable. Aliens wasn't because the bad guys were the humans as well as the aliens.

For example in diehard we all were at the edge of our seats because the main character was in a losing position. the bad guy looked like he was going to win because he had the hostages and the automatic weapons. We don't know what is going to happen and there is a sense of danger because the hero isn't a "hero" (like arnie in commando) has no proper training and this is what makes the movie interesting.

Now if you were to make a sequel doing the exact same thing don't you think you would be rolling your eyes in your head?? Everywhere the main chracter goes there are hostage situations. Too much coincidence. And frankly that just isn't realistic to me.

Same thing with later rocky movies. I loved the first one because it tells a story of an underdog given a chance. But when you do the same thing over again but with different people it really loses the impact that it had when you saw it first time. Audiences are smart. But 'fans' (fans = fanatics) of the original tend not to care so they keep watching the sequels.(as opposed to your mum, your dad, your best friend who might not be a 'fan' but had just watched something "as a movie" rather than as a "franchise".)

For people who want more of the same thing more power to you. But for a mainstream audience they have a different more cynical attitude to watching something and lose interest more easily if they think they've seen something like it before. If a story is predictable and has the exact same message or ending as the first movie it loses impact.

390458[/snapback]

I won your argument for you? I already stated that Macross II has a few of the same elements in DYRL?. Your argument was that you could predict Macross II easily. Then brought up examples. I merely stated that could be said about any movie. But come Macross II, you saw them blowing up the Macross? (Which you didn't even bother to answer.)

Edited April 13, 2006 by Oihan

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I won your argument for you?

You wanted to see movies that weren't predictable and wanted more originality because you were sick of seeing the same stuff with new people in it.

There are so few movies out there like The Usual Suspects and A Beautiful Mind (for examples) that keep you guessing till the very end or blow you away completely.

I'm always looking for more movies like them.

So don't automatically think the critics are wrong if they are jaded and want something completely different from what the fan of the original wanted. It's possible that people who liked the first, still like the first but they just want the second to not be a clone of the first. (and yet still enjoy the second as a stand alone thing even if it clones the first - it's a case of "I will see it anyway")

But I'm of the belief that once a story has been told it's been told. If you tell the same thing again that is when the cynism starts and people label it a cash cow. Ie gundam for eg.

Yeah ok so Hibiki isn't a fighter pilot the way Hikaru was (this was the thing I liked about the sequel that it saw things from a civilian perspective) but overall there were enough similarities between this and DYRL that you could say it cloned it.

Edited April 13, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[emajnthis]

The only thing i really enjoyed from this series were the war scenes. I hated the fact that the opening was completely misleading as it was great and the series was mediocre (the opening also had a whole bunch of animation that you thought you would've seen during the series but then just never showed up). Disappointing as a sequal, but not so bad on its own, and the mechs were very appealing.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Actually that brings up an interesting question. You know how they show the Legendary "Alus" at the beginning?

The SDF1 looks nothing like it. So it can't be the legendary alus can it?

Maybe the Alus is a real ship still out there? If somebody can capture an image of the ship that would be nice.

[Zinjo]

Actually that brings up an interesting question. You know how they show the Legendary "Alus" at the beginning?

The SDF1 looks nothing like it. So it can't be the legendary alus can it?

Maybe the Alus is a real ship still out there? If somebody can capture an image of the ship that would be nice.

390563[/snapback]

We don't know if the ship in Ishtar's dream was the actual ship or just an image she conjured up in her own imagination.

After all it was a "Legend" and most legends don't come with pictures...

[Sumdumgai]

I think the legendary Alus ditched Macross II and went into Tenchi Muyo.

I hate reporters.

[terry the lone wolf]

The only thing i really enjoyed from this series were the war scenes.  I hated the fact that the opening was completely misleading as it was great and the series was mediocre (the opening also had a whole bunch of animation that you thought you would've seen during the series but then just never showed up).  Disappointing as a sequal, but not so bad on its own, and the mechs were very appealing.

390508[/snapback]

Uber action director Masami Obari directed the opening. He should have directed the whole film because that opening does kick major ass.

[emajnthis]

IIRC, the first four OVA episodes didn't catch on well, so they decided to just wrap it up with two more episodes and then later repackaged it as a long movie. That would explain the huge animation drop in the last two episodes, and probably why a whole lot of cool opening sequence never made it into the animation. It always seemed like the first four episodes were going to take this series into a good direction and the last two just turned it into DYRL?

[retroborg]

I personally liked the Metal Siren Valkyrie and the UN Spacy Flagship Gloria.

Metal Siren:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g152/cha...s-prototype.jpg

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g152/cha...-highoutput.jpg

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g152/cha...1ms-gerwalk.jpg

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g152/cha...1ms-fighter.jpg

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g152/cha...ms-battroid.jpg

Gloria:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g152/cha...zero/gloria.jpg

If you look closely at the Macross Cannons, you'll see that the cannons themselves are parts of Zentradi style battleships.

Macross Cannon:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g152/cha...non-carrier.jpg

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g152/cha...nnon-attack.jpg

Zentradi Style Battleship:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g152/cha...t-vergnitzs.jpg

[Jeid]

I've heard it all about Macross II being a DYRL? rehash (especially from Keith back on AFM). Sure, it has the same elements and plots, BUT it's a COMPLETELY different story.

But there's nothing worse than knowing exactly what happens in the end and how it is going to happen. It's the danger of a sequel when they don't add twists to keep an audience guessing.

Take the movie aliens for example: they gave us a queen alien, they made the android trustworthy,(not expected an android would save ripley due to what happened in the first movie) and you constantly had to guess who was going to die and who was going to live. So when you see it you can't say the sequel is doing the same thing as the original. You genuinely want to keep watching to see how it all turns out and who survives because it is not certain how things will turn out till you are sitting there and the credits roll. A sequel should take what worked well and expand on it rather than redo the whole thing again to reinvent the wheel.

Anyway I enjoyed it but the ending especially reminded me of DYRL. Substitute ishtar on the sdf1 for minmay. (both standing on the exact spot) And have the aliens turn against thier leader again. A mainstream audience would roll thier eyes while the fan would be excited.

What would have been interesting to me was if earth actually got destroyed or captured and survivors contacted for outside help and there was some kind of resistance or something. Then have ishstar live on earth as a human and have her create music herself or something. Maybe the aliens hear it, sympathise with her and start creating thier own songs and the mind control slowly wears off. Resistance grows and outside help comes to take out the leader while rogues loyal to the leader escape. Of course these rogues have been contaminated but don't care about the music or the mind control. (there will always be people who music won't work on) The ending won't be so happy this time. It will be a slight victory and the lesson of the show would be: humans can't be so complacent. And we would see casualties of the war. (zentradi would go back to thier warlike ways and slowly realise that maybe humans really are weak for being so careless, so they join up and train thier asses off to become soldiers, but without the mind control or blind loyalty to stupid warrior codes, just as protectors) And the military would also be forced to tell the damn truth and people would allow more funding for creation of new weapons which keeps the ending open-ended rather than enjoying peace and being relaxed.

Maybe the sequel could have been the counter point to the first movie. (where minmay sings and all is well with the world - remember people in the movie had a cynical attitude that such a simple thing could work)

390448[/snapback]

The thing is, it WAS a slight victory, just like in DYRL. The Earth DID take a blow, and the Earth's most symbolic weapon- the Macross- WAS destroyed. In fact, what you're saying should have happened is almost a longer version of what did. The UN Spacy was getting royally owned, and HQ got trashed. Even the Macross was destroyed, and overall the UN Spacy looked like it just wasn't cutting it. Then the contaminated Marduk helped and they won. The same thing could be said for DYRL, though in DYRL the Earth was just pummeled from space and we didn't actually see it happen. It seems to me that the big difference between your idea and how things went is a resistance movement arc, which I'm not sure is really even prudent in a short OVA format.

Besides, what outside help would there be in the Macross universe? A few colonization fleets? I don't think we're even sure how many fleets there were in MII.

As for Ishtar singing in the same place on the Macross that Minmay did... that was part of one of the themes of MII... the legacy of the Macross and its love song. I personally think it was an effective notion or homage or whatever you want to call it, and had a good nostalgia factor to it in retrospect (I can't spoeak for someone seeing MII after DYRL since I saw MII after having only read the Robotech novels).

It may not be a masterpiece, but I felt that MII was an effective sequel and overall a fairly good series in its own right. I see a lot of similiarities to DYRL now, but I think those are intentional and part of the atmosphere the creators wanted... and the shared elements I see are hardly enough to call it a 'clone' or 'predictable' outside of that the good guys win in the end.

[Ginrai]

Macross II........

No Kawamori = not Macross 

390249[/snapback]

Yeah, because Kawamori directed SDF Macross. Oh wait, no, he didn't! Well, he did all the mecha designs... oh wait! No, he didn't! Miyatake did most of them, including the Macross itself. Er, well then... uh... he wrote the TV series, right? Uh, no, that would be guys Ohnogi and Tomita et cetera. Well he must have done something right?

Edited April 13, 2006 by Ginrai

[Ginrai]

The voice acting in both the US & Japanese versions were very well performed, but my favorite factor in the film was its music.

390243[/snapback]

Okay, I love Macross II, but you've gotta be kidding me on the voice acting. The English voice actors are -terrible-. This is one of the worst dubs I've ever heard, especially Hibiki's "actor". I don't know how many people I've tried to show this to who hated it dubbed, but actually liked it subbed. This dub = crime.

[Ginrai]

"Mou Ichido Love You" is one of my favorite songs in Macross, except if you're watching the horrible dub where that shrieking harpy of an English voice actress takes over and totally farting ruins the song. But otherwise, it's beautiful.