Macross Ii Anime Film Awesome! *heavy Spoilers!*

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Kawamori should still do the mecha design. I like stuff like the variable monster and stuff.

Maybe what needs to be done is this: you have side story series handled by one team, and the main stuff by another team.

This way all the people who liked macross plus and SDF:Macross get thier realism, and the people who like the pop music and fantasy and religious symbolism in thier show get that. It would be the equavalent to having an 8th MS team (emphasis on normal pilots and cannon fodders with limits) for macross, while the story of 'newtypes' for macross (like basara) is carried on in the main series for the kiddies where the heroes never die.

If you think about it, this is kinda what happened with macross plus anyway. In plus we get the YF 19, YF21, VF11B, actual realistic dogfights, and then in macross 7 we got the pop music playing every episode and even ripping stuff from macross II, (like some of the music - which to me is a good thing) and the VF19, VF22, and VF11 with GBP. (plus other stuff like vf17)

...but even though those two were different, (one a sidestory the other a main story featuring main characters from the original tv series) they both helped expand the universe and add something.

What I want: a sidestory with more destroid action. Show me some variable destroids like the VB6, (monster only gets short appearance in Zero) show us some characters grounded in reality with limits to thier skill, and all new characters. Doesn't anyone get inspired by what they saw in macross plus when the vf11 guts that zentradi with the bayonet? That more of what I like. But give it DYRL-style quality and feel. (violence, more serious tone, death, with a greater "sense of danger")

If they can give us a new sidestory to get excited about, maybe bring in some new mecha designers, and a fresh new set of characters with thier own personalities, it would be a good excuse to see more mecha within macross universe that normally have the spotlight taken from them by valks piloted by aces all the time. (I always felt sad for the vf11 CF in macross 7. Almost as useless as the destroid)

Edited May 3, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Phalanx]

Now, I don't want to sound like some of those guys who constantly keep jumping down SK's throat for not liking M2 and not including it as part of his timeline, and I don't wanna sound like I'm trying to get underneath SK's skin by saying this, but if you ask me, I think SK secretly admires the Valk 2. I betcha he probably has drawings of it locked away in his drawers or something and I think he also hates the Valk 2 is because he's probably jealous that he didn't design the sleek and sexy VF . Go figure!

As for me, I'd like to see a spinoff series of the Macross franchise that uses VF's but is not realted to Macross story-wise. Something like with Mospeada and SC Cavalry. Have the ultimate collabo of Yutaka Izubuchi, Kazumi Fujita, Hajime Katoki, Kunio Owakara, Koichi Ohta, Shoji Kawamori for the mecha designs and have intense action like in M+ and have that DYRL feel to it.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

They should call it Robocross, Macrotech, or Robomech instead of macross, to avoid any licensing mess when brought over to other countries. This way when yamato makes the toys HG can't block them and we don't have to import and eat the huge shipping costs. They can then strategically say that any events that happened in these universes never happened (like the way robotech: sentinels is no longer canon) so that if it does poorly there will be no risk in destroying the main macross universe. (the way macross 7 did for fans of the older tv series) Kawamori can then reveal in an interview that the events did happen but it was all a movie similar to how DYRL was just a movie and not real. The events and mecha themselves were just computer models designed by un spacy for use in a holographic training sim and this information was fed into the brains of the audiences using technology from the BCS/BDI system from the yf21.

In the future instead of letting people play arcade games that let you win money using traditional joysticks and peddles, (see SDF:Macross) you instead connect wires into a jack inside your neck and you pilot the virtual VF using your thoughts in the sim.

The twist is that the control systems in these sims can be used to remotely control a real VF and allow the person to pilot without being inside one. Certain people can use VF the way newtype can use bits or funnels in gundam. The really good ones can control groups of VF to fight in certain formations to get an edge over the Ghost X9 drones which can outmanuever manned VFs due to the nature of not being sensitive to a human body's limits. But all that is not revealed until like at the end of the series.

Of course when millard mentions that "pilots are necessary" in macross plus, he could not have foreseen that unmanned drones could still technically be piloted by pilots but without as much risk of the pilot getting killed in battle. Drones will soon go out of favour, people will eventually prefer to have thier entire brains implanted inside machines (like ghost in the shell) where they live, and humans get closer and closer to becoming "living machines" like the AFOS in macross Zero which showed intelligence. (a ghost in the shell, or soul inside a machine) When all thier minds are networked together to share information (like the internet) they can instantaneously have information about where the enemies are, how many enemies there are, what the enemies look like, etc and making quick decisions instantaneously for quicker reaction speed as if the group were "one mind" and the "whole" were just a single entity. (all people with a stand alone complex will have been imprisoned by this time in the future where individual thought is illegal)

Edited May 3, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Warmaker]

There were only 3 things that I liked from Macross II.

1. The Valkyrie II

2. The UN Spacy Uniform

3. Sylvie Gina

That's it. Hibiki was annoying to no end. For me, almost as annoying as Star Wars Ewoks. The "romance" was ridiculous, especially at the end between Sylvie and Hibiki. No, not ridiculous... Space Balls Ludicrous!

But the most heinous crime was the destruction of the SDF.

[Zinjo]

There were only 3 things that I liked from Macross II.

1. The Valkyrie II

2. The UN Spacy Uniform

3. Sylvie Gina

That's it.  Hibiki was annoying to no end.  For me, almost as annoying as Star Wars Ewoks.  The "romance" was ridiculous, especially at the end between Sylvie and Hibiki.  No, not ridiculous... Space Balls Ludicrous!

But the most heinous crime was the destruction of the SDF.

396504[/snapback]

Well considering the story was obviously truncated, I can see how you'd conclude that. However, Basara was multiple time more annoying that Hibiki ever was...but I digress...

[ComicKaze]

I love Macross II, but everybody seems to hate it over here (the majority at least).

[Warmaker]

There were only 3 things that I liked from Macross II.

1. The Valkyrie II

2. The UN Spacy Uniform

3. Sylvie Gina

That's it.  Hibiki was annoying to no end.  For me, almost as annoying as Star Wars Ewoks.  The "romance" was ridiculous, especially at the end between Sylvie and Hibiki.  No, not ridiculous... Space Balls Ludicrous!

But the most heinous crime was the destruction of the SDF.

396504[/snapback]

Well considering the story was obviously truncated, I can see how you'd conclude that. However, Basara was multiple time more annoying that Hibiki ever was...but I digress...

396577[/snapback]

Please, sir! Do not take my comments that I like Macross 7.

Quite the opposite. I absolutely hate Macross 7. It's been a while since I posted regularly at MW's forums, but I used to get into "Let's Kick The Dead Horse On how Macross 7 Sucks Thread" all the time.

I love most things Macross but Macross 7 has some really weird **** in it.

This thread was on Macross II and I put out some opinions on it.

BTW, I do have the "This is animation" book for Macross II. I like it namely due to Mikimoto's artwork.

[Zinjo]

I love Macross II, but everybody seems to hate it over here (the majority at least).

396593[/snapback]

Only the Kawamori minions...

Some people choose to blindly accept anything Kawamori as gospel rather than objectively seeing a project for what it is.

Many refuse to accept Macross II as part of the Macross continuity and they are entitled to their opinions. Others of us disown Mac 7 as part of the continuity as well.

There are many opinions on the subject and fortunately most on these boards are respectful of differing opinions.

[1st Border Red Devil]

But the most heinous crime was the destruction of the SDF.

396504[/snapback]

Seriously, what was so wrong about destroying a ship that had outlived its usefulness? Its a ship for crying out loud.

[Seto Kaiba]

But the most heinous crime was the destruction of the SDF.

396504[/snapback]

Seriously, what was so wrong about destroying a ship that had outlived its usefulness? Its a ship for crying out loud.

398273[/snapback]

Well, it was also sort of the symbol of the UN government, the UN Spacy, and one of the more recognizable ships in anime. Still, it was just a ship.

[Egan Loo]

Yeah, because Kawamori directed SDF Macross. Oh wait, no, he didn't!

He supervised it.

Well, he did all the mecha designs... oh wait! No, he didn't! Miyatake did most of them, including the Macross itself.

He co-designed them, including the design that was originally intended as the main mecha before a sponsor pushed to make the spaceship the title mecha.

Er, well then... uh... he wrote the TV series, right? Uh, no, that would be guys Ohnogi and Tomita et cetera.

He co-wrote it, and developed the original story.

Well he must have done something right?

390768[/snapback]

Yes, he was creator, production supervisor, mechanical designer, storyboard artist, and episode scriptwriter. He played the most roles of any of the staffers of Macross, which makes sense since he developed the original idea.

[Egan Loo]

I wonder how Kazutaka Miyatake would fair in creating a new Macross series on his own using mecha and character designs.

As a rule, Miyatake does not do character designs. The closest he came is creating the creatures in Macross 7, Macross Dynamite 7, and Macross Zero.

All he usually designs is zentraedi mecha, support vehicles for the U.N spacy and I'm really interested in seeing him create his own VF's because I want to see how they turn out in comparison with SK's designs.

395831[/snapback]

He did design at least one variable vehicle for Macross, specifically the Az-130 Panzerzorene.

[Egan Loo]

Heck, Kawamori was responsible for one of those Gundam shows.

395873[/snapback]

Redesigning the RX-78 Gundam into the GP-01 and GP-02A does not qualify as "being responsible" for the show, just partial mecha design.

395907[/snapback]

He and the rest of Studio Nue were also responsible for Gundam Century, the book that established most of the "science" and background material for Gundam long before any sequel was conceived.

[Egan Loo]

As a collaborator with Ken'ichi Matsuzaki, Noboru Ishiguro, Sukehiro Tomita (the original SDF Macross writing team), I'm sure something a bit more credible and less fantasy would result.

395918[/snapback]

The first Macross series writing team also included Hiroshi Onogi (a writer personally recruited by Kawamori), Hiroyuki Hoshiyama, and Shoji Kawamori.

Ken-ichi Matsuzaki's biggest anime success after the first Macross was Dragon Slayer.

As mentioned in the other thread, the last three new anime projects that Noboru Ishiguro directed or supervised were Totoi, Kimera, and Toukyou Jusshouden (one environmentally-themed story and two supernatural fantasies).

Sukehiro Tomita's biggest success after the first Macross was writing and supervising the scripts for Sailor Moon and Macross 7.

[Zinjo]

Yeah, because Kawamori directed SDF Macross. Oh wait, no, he didn't!

He supervised it.

Proof?

Er, well then... uh... he wrote the TV series, right? Uh, no, that would be guys Ohnogi and Tomita et cetera.

He co-wrote it.

Again...Proof?

Well he must have done something right?

390768[/snapback]

Yes, he was creator, production supervisor, mechanical designer, storyboard artist, and episode scriptwriter. He played the most roles of any of the staffers of Macross, which makes sense since he developed the original idea.

400161[/snapback]

Umm no, his "official" credits don't include "production supervisor" (the whole "wunderkind" myth doesn't happen in Japan), and he is credited (under a pseudonym) with being involved with writing the last six episodes.

He played most of those roles because he was the one of the most junior members of the production team and thus one of the "bitches" of the office. He also directed the valkyrie animation (uncredited) as it was easier for him to direct it than explain how his planes worked.

Edited May 17, 2006 by Zinjo

[Egan Loo]

Yeah, because Kawamori directed SDF Macross. Oh wait, no, he didn't!

He supervised it.

Proof?

Macross Perfect Memory, page 259. Macross Dictionary, page 131.

Er, well then... uh... he wrote the TV series, right? Uh, no, that would be guys Ohnogi and Tomita et cetera.

He co-wrote it.

Again...Proof?

Macross Perfect Memory, page 258-259. Macross Dictionary, page 129-131.

Well he must have done something right?

390768[/snapback]

Yes, he was creator, production supervisor, mechanical designer, storyboard artist, and episode scriptwriter. He played the most roles of any of the staffers of Macross, which makes sense since he developed the original idea.

400161[/snapback]

Umm no, his "official" credits don't include "production supervisor" (the whole "wunderkind" myth doesn't happen in Japan), and he is credited (under a pseudonym) with being involved with writing the last six episodes.

Again, Macross Perfect Memory, page 259. Macross Dictionary, page 131. His crediting extends for the entire series, not just the last six episodes.

He played most of those roles because he was the one of the most junior members of the production team and thus one of the "bitches" of the office.  He also directed the valkyrie animation (uncredited) as it was easier for him to direct it than explain how his planes worked.

400170[/snapback]

He played most of those roles because he created the core concept for the series. By the time the series aired, he was a five-year veteran of Studio Nue, and had worked on everything from Space Captain Harlock and Ultraman to Ulysses 31 and Diaclone (including co-designing the Convoy toy that became Optimus Prime in Transformers).

[crasis]

Ha! OWND. I love when Egan comes through and cleans house of all inaccuracies. You need to visit more often, sir.

[Ginrai]

I was being a bit facetious. I'm not saying Kawamori is not important to Macross -- he definitely is. I'm saying he's not the only important person. I've seen other anime that many of the Artland/Nue staffers worked on that Kawamori did not have a huge role (or any role) in, and they are still really good. Giving him credit for everything is wrong and insulting to the other people who worked hard on created the series we love so much. It especially irks me when people totally ignore Ishiguro Noboru.

And Ohnogi and Tomita. Yeah, they didn't create everything, but that's usually how it works when you are a writer. You write to the specifications and they did a fabulous job.

Also note that the episodes Kawamori wrote (the ones after Love Drifts Away) are also the ones most people don't -like-...

Edited May 17, 2006 by Ginrai

[Zinjo]

Ha! OWND. I love when Egan comes through and cleans house of all inaccuracies. You need to visit more often, sir.

400198[/snapback]

I guess you would since I heard no such arguments coming from you...

[Egan Loo]

I was being a bit facetious. I'm not saying Kawamori is not important to Macross -- he definitely is. I'm saying he's not the only important person. I've seen other anime that many of the Artland/Nue staffers worked on that Kawamori did not have a huge role (or any role) in, and they are still really good. Giving him credit for everything is wrong and insulting to the other people who worked hard on created the series we love so much. It especially irks me when people totally ignore Ishiguro Noboru.

Kawamori is definitely not the only important person in Macross, but he is arguably the most important person. Take for example how Ishiguro got involved in the project. Ishiguro's Artland studio did not officially join the project until a year and half into the pre-production. Artland was recruited in no small part because Haruhiko Mikimoto had just started working there, and Kawamori wanted him as character designer. Mikimoto himself was working on the project because he was a high school and college friend of Kawamori.

And Ohnogi and Tomita. Yeah, they didn't create everything, but that's usually how it works when you are a writer. You write to the specifications and they did a fabulous job.

Kawamori personally recruited Ohnogi into Macross because, like Mikimoto, they went to high school and college together. In fact, Ohnogi wasn't involved in the initial planning of Macross at all since he only joined the scriptwriting staff after it started broadcast. (He was finishing college when Macross first aired, and didn't script his first episode until episode 16.)

As noted earlier, Tomita scripted for the first Macross series, Do You Remember Love?, Macross II, Macross 7, and Macross Dynamite 7. However, he didn't work on Flash Back 2012, Macross Plus, and Macross Zero, nor was he involved in the actual initial creation of the first Macross series.

Also note that the episodes Kawamori wrote (the ones after Love Drifts Away) are also the ones most people don't -like-...

400201[/snapback]

The only episode that Kawamori scripted after episode 27 was episode 36, the episode that most people did like. A full six of the other eight last episodes were scripted by…Ohnogi and Tomita.

In any case, all of pre-production story treatments and story outlines (written by Kawamori) naturally didn't include those episodes at all. By the point that those episodes were being scripted, Kawamori was mostly focusing on the movie instead. Nevertheless, as noted in the other thread, those last episodes did no better or worse in the ratings than the previous ones.

[Ginrai]

Kawamori is definitely not the only important person in Macross, but he is arguably the most important person. Take for example how Ishiguro got involved in the project. Ishiguro's Artland studio did not officially join the project until a year and half into the pre-production. Artland was recruited in no small part because Haruhiko Mikimoto had just started working there, and Kawamori wanted him as character designer. Mikimoto himself was working on the project because he was a high school and college friend of Kawamori.

Not arguing against you at all here. Artland animated, not created, and they did a great job. My point is that they deserve some of the credit too.

Kawamori personally recruited Ohnogi into Macross because, like Mikimoto, they went to high school and college together. In fact, Ohnogi wasn't involved in the initial planning of Macross at all since he only joined the scriptwriting staff after it started broadcast. (He was finishing college when Macross first aired, and didn't script his first episode until episode 16.)

Yeahhhh, so? I'm aware that they went to school and all that. What I'm saying is that they contributed to what made Macross special and that it's unfair that everyone downplays the contributions of everyone -but- Kawamori. I'm against this attitude in general film too. The auteur theory is just plain wrong. Film (and television) is a collaborative art form, to a much greater extent than theatre. In point of fact, animation is even more of a collaboration than live action film.

As noted earlier, Tomita scripted for the first Macross series, Do You Remember Love?, Macross II, Macross 7, and Macross Dynamite 7. However, he didn't work on Flash Back 2012, Macross Plus, and Macross Zero, nor was he involved in the actual initial creation of the first Macross series.

Again, so? Flash Back had like two pages worth of scripting in it, and Plus and Zero were only a few episodes long. The fact that he worked on both Macross TV series, DYRL, and a couple of OAVs pretty well cements him as a writer of import in Macross, don't you think?

The only episode that Kawamori scripted after episode 27 was episode 36, the episode that most people did like. A full six of the other eight last episodes were scripted by…Ohnogi and Tomita.

Oh really? My mistake. I actually like the episodes, but then, I like the entire series. Is there a list of who wrote which episode?

In any case, all of pre-production story treatments and story outlines (written by Kawamori) naturally didn't include those episodes at all. By the point that those episodes were being scripted, Kawamori was mostly focusing on the movie instead. Nevertheless, as noted in the other thread, those last episodes did no better or worse in the ratings than the previous ones.

400211[/snapback]

Guess that's an impression created by only fans yabbering. Never mind!

Anyway, I still think Tomita and Ohnogi are important to Macross and have done some excellent work. Kawamori is obviously very important, but he's not the only one with significant creative input.

And visually speaking, Ichiro Itano is also very important to Macross. Sure, the love triangles and singing and transforming robots and all are quite important to Macross, but so is the Itano Circus! Go missiles! Wee!