Official Transformers Super Thread 3

[Fit For Natalie]

Go look at Headmasters, or Masterforce. Generic japanese kids series where woman are put in their place (NO, Arcee! You cannot come with me! You must stay behind and be the Cybertron Office Lady!!), a largely increased human participation (to the point of being critical to the good guys sucess) and bad asian humour.

425277[/snapback]

Congratulations! This is the most racist thing I've seen on this board yet.

425321[/snapback]

Congratulations! You did not realise I am asian! *THUMBS UP*

No numbers = no proof = SHOVE IT! I don't want your speculation poo.

I don't really know how to provide you proof of relatively common knowledge, but I grant you that it may be a matter of perspective.

Laserwave

Skylynx

And it was Toyco who created Shockwave, Omega Supreme, and Skylynx. Only the Takatoku toys were not released in Japan. Not that it matters since they were never in the show.

I meant to say that (to my knowledge) many of the toys not created by Takara were never officially released under the TF brandname in Japan.

Btw, why did you provide those zincpanic links? They don't provide any formation.

Exactly what are these western values you keep talking about? Are you talking about the stupid Saturday Morning cartoon model of TV shows? They dubbed out all the western dialogue and changed the characters to reflect a more Japanese style show. The only thing they couldn't dub out would be the crappy animation and poor plots. Rattrap and Bumblebee became the cute characters, Convoy is more intense than Optimus, etc. All of Scramble City is pretty indicative of what Japan did to Transformers.

You mean like how Arcee was a useless token female who took care of Daniel all the time? Or wait, that was in season 3! Doh!

Even american Arcee at her most stereotyped was nowhere near as bad as Headmasters (the series) Arcee. As for her being the caretaker of Daniel... while it was a recurring theme, it wasn't a constant as you suggest. At its most predominant it occured in the movie, Dark Awakening (where she is shot in the leg when Cyclonus takes a uncharacteristically shot at both Spike & Daniel), and their binary bonding in The Rebirth. Daniel's appearances were usually accompanied by Wheelie or Grimlock as his sidekicks in their silly adventures. Arcee usually appeared alongside Rodimus Prime and Springer.

Man, you are totally insensitive.

I don't want to see my heroes cry over their broken mecha. Its fine if they cried over their living friends, or at least machines with personality.

Did I hurt your feelings? I'm so sorry *man hug*

This has nothing to do with the popular shows of the time being Zoids, Hikarian, Nadesco, Golden Brave Goldran, the Eldoran shows, Kabutack... THE 90's WERE A CAMPY DECADE FOR JAPANESE ROBOTS! Dubbed Beast Wars is campy. The Japanese Ninja Turtles show was campy. Do I have to go on?

425331[/snapback]

Well, then you'll have to enlighten me

And Takara said they liked it for TF's apparent western values. You can't ask 'what western values?' and then ignore what Takara said if you don't believe what I say. Go research for the quote. It was a tiny excerpt of an interview with a member of the Takara TF team back in around 2004.

Edited August 16, 2006 by Fit For Natalie

[Fit For Natalie]

The TF series from the US? Do you mean the G1 stuff and Best Wars stuff? That ain't much. You yourself leave G1 in nostalgialand.

Beat Wars "maturity" was mainly due to the circumstances that gave birth to it (like the inability to have the legion of characters Hasbro wanted) and when it changed to Beast Machines it just continued that formula (read: sequel) with the same characters but with less talented writers behind it.

Where do I find all those other truck loads of maturity from the last 20 years? The flipping CG cube thing edited in the old cartoon matured the show in a way in the early 90's? Did the American dubs of the Takara series upgrade the maturity level from the usual kiddie target audience of sentai/pokemon stuff to higher levels? Either way I could only stand two episodes of those recent shows, and I saw the American versions.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but don’t associate TF with maturity. I can do that with Best Wars, but I prefer to associate it with a character driven show whose quality owned a lot to the circumstances that spawned it, not something that was thought out beforehand.

What I see is that Hasbro TF are a Saturday morning cartoon franchise and Takara TF are an anime franchise. You switch countries and they magically look fresh when compared to all the usual stuff on TV.

Characters (not only the main pilot) give thanks to their Gundams and Mazingers when they win the battle, cry when they get trashed or have other reaction that only show that those soulless “machine†mean more. You don’t see G.I Joe characters doing this with their vehicles.

Because that would look extrodinarily stupid in western fiction. Affection for your vehicle perhaps, but crying? Ugh.

425277[/snapback]

And yet in the real world some people are doing just that because of the colours or hip crap of a toy that nobody is making them buy.

BTW, I would surely cry if my expensive as hell Gundam got scratched

425407[/snapback]

Sigh. I never equate TF to true maturity or something around the level of animation created for adults. I was saying I consider the level of 'maturity' in the US created series, or the US-dubbed series to be of a higher level than of the Japanese-created or japanese-dubbed series of Transformers. This is evident given the fact Takara markets their TF Mainline (kids toys) at a slightly younger age group than Hasbro.

Don't bother bringing up the fact Takara said in the Binaltech interview that Hasbro aims Alternators at a younger age group than Takara. That was because Hasbro doesn't develop toylines soley for the collector market like Takara can do in theirs, hence the lower cost of Alternators, so they can attempt to sell it to everybody. This is also why brick & mortar stores can carry in abundance.

A good example of how a US dub can change the tone of the original is Cybertron. I've watched both all eps of GF and most of Cyb, and Hasbro's dub rewriters did a decent job in reworking it slightly to tighten up its seriousness in some areas and lightening it in others. I think the Cyb kids are more interesting and less grating than the GF kids, especially bad. I hated GF Bud and his grating voice that makes me want to stab my ears out!

[Fit For Natalie]

Movie Prime renders

If real (and they are based on the prop truck's colour scheme), they seem to be rather early, if intricate, renders.

[Ginrai]

Congratulations! You did not realise I am asian! *THUMBS UP*

So, you're Japanese, right? Because if not, it's still racist! Enjoy!

[Dangaioh]

I'm sorry ppl, as much as I like to read the bickering and rampant flamming, let's stick to the subject of this thread, you guys want to pm each other if you wish to continue, I do not want to see this thread closed, or we would need to start another TF thread, let's first apologize, then continue in the PM's if you wish.

I can see the mod right now ready to press that "close this thread" button.

Edited August 17, 2006 by Dangaioh

[David Hingtgen]

Actually it was more likely to be mass deletings of individual posts.

[VF5SS]

Thanks guys. You really helped call a bullshitter on his bullshit.

[David Hingtgen]

Do you want that to be the second post of yours I've deleted in this thread?

[Sundown]

Although I wouldn't say that the original Transformers series is one aimed at anyone but kids, and "maturity" isn't the first thing I think of when the show comes to mind, it does embody some semi-adult themes that make for good storytelling and decent characters. And it does appear to me that the American series did have a great enough impact and identity that Takara actually changed their branding and promotional angle in Japan.

I know it's unpopular in some places to even suggest that something western might actually be decent and perhaps better than its asian counterpart, but it's obvious that the American series did something right that both Takara and Japanese fans liked.

And having an less than positive opinion about some aspect of another culture or ethnicity doesn't make someone a racist. I have all sorts of unflattering opinions about silly things of my own ethnicity, and I would have to agree if someone who didn't share my heritage noted some of the same silliness, provided he/she at least *try* to understand it first and attempt some baseline respect.

Sure, it makes me uncomfortable to hear my thoughts come from his mouth, but that doesn't mean he's racist. It means I have a double standard.

[Dobber]

LOL! Thank you David.

Chris

[Fit For Natalie]

Classics Dinobot Minicons, Emergency and Demolition teams

Presumebly originally developed for Cybertron but moved to Classics when the latter was moved up.

[Doctor Reggae]

Just saw those too. Terrorsaur looks like a mini-BW Megatron, but the molds look pretty decent.

[Fit For Natalie]

Even more minicons

[Ginrai]

And it does appear to me that the American series did have a great enough impact and identity that Takara actually changed their branding and promotional angle in Japan.

I know it's unpopular in some places to even suggest that something western might actually be decent and perhaps better than its asian counterpart, but it's obvious that the American series did something right that both Takara and Japanese fans liked.

What you're ignoring is that Takara did not just take what Hasbro and Marvel Studios created and translate it. They adapted it, heavily rewriting it and totally rescoring it, not to mention totally different voice actors and everything. They Japanized it.

And having an less than positive opinion about some aspect of another culture or ethnicity doesn't make someone a racist.  I have all sorts of unflattering opinions about silly things of my own ethnicity, and I would have to agree if someone who didn't share my heritage noted some of the same silliness, provided he/she at least *try* to understand it first and attempt some baseline respect.

Sure, it makes me uncomfortable to hear my thoughts come from his mouth, but that doesn't mean he's racist.  It means I have a double standard.

It's not having a less than positive opinion about some aspect of another culture, it's suggesting that anything western is inherently both better than Japanese culture, and that Japan is totally into it strictly because western values are superior and Japan knows it. That drives me crazy. It annoys me just as much when Robotech fans claim Robotech's version of Macross/Southern Cross/Mospeada is better and that Japan acknowledges this. It's ludicrous.

So one more time: Japan did NOT get the Transformers Hasbro/Marvel Studios created. They took the animation and retasked it with a totally new score, new writing, and new actors. HEY, JUST LIKE ROBOTECH.

Or do you want to argue that Robotech is exactly the same thing as Macross?

Edited August 17, 2006 by Ginrai

[Metal_Massacre_79]

Or do you want to argue that Robotech is exactly the same thing as Macross?

They are the same thing, everyone knows this!

[rosedoggydog]

Or do you want to argue that Robotech is exactly the same thing as Macross?

They are the same thing, everyone knows this!

425922[/snapback]

I thought that way too until I watched my first Macross DVD last night and I couldn't get my son to stop say macross all night...(why is eveyone looking at me?)...Yeah so um who likes 80's Go-Bots?

[JB0]

Or do you want to argue that Robotech is exactly the same thing as Macross?

They are the same thing, everyone knows this!

425922[/snapback]

I thought that way too until I watched my first Macross DVD last night and I couldn't get my son to stop say macross all night...(why is eveyone looking at me?)...Yeah so um who likes 80's Go-Bots?

425928[/snapback]

They're mighty robots AND mighty vehicles! What's NOT to love?

[Ginrai]

You know what's awesome? Machine Robo: Revenge of Chronos.

[David Hingtgen]

The new minicon jet is an F-14! Now if only they'd given him Jetfire colors.

[Fit For Natalie]

I want it grey and to be named LEADER-1!

His current colours appear to be referencing a plane from the Euro line and the G2 line, if I recall correctly.

Edited August 17, 2006 by Fit For Natalie

[Ginrai]

Uhm, Leader-1 was an F-15, just like Starscream and company, not an F-14. If you want a Transformer F-14, try Leozak/Autobot Rescue Jet or whatever.

Edited August 17, 2006 by Ginrai

[David Hingtgen]

Yeah---I wonder why I see multiple people commenting about the new F-14 and Leader-1. It still amazes me how many TF fans can spend years staring at the seeker mold, and still not recognize an F-15. Leader-1, Air Raid (Aerialbot), and Starscream are all F-15's---and IIRC Leader-1 actually is the most accurate of them all. I learned how to recognize the Nissan 280 because of Bluestreak...

[Sundown]

What you're ignoring is that Takara did not just take what Hasbro and Marvel Studios created and translate it. They adapted it, heavily rewriting it and totally rescoring it, not to mention totally different voice actors and everything. They Japanized it.

Different voice actors would be a necessity of course. And asian audiences differ in their musical tastes, so I wouldn't be surprised if Japanese TF was rescored. I can't speak about how much was rewritten and if the tone of G1 TF was changed in the rewriting, and I'll concede that TF was (badly?) rewritten and went off in odd directions after its initial American run. So yes, TF was of course adapted to a Japanese audience. But my point was that something core about the American series and characters appealed enough to Takara and Japanese audiences enough that they actually readapted their own toy line and background fiction to match the Transformers branding.

But then again, it could have been a purely economic decision, because after all, they have all this animation that features their toys. Why not use it? Still, the Transformers concept was deemed workable enough to be reincorporated by Takara, even if it started out as an adaptation of their designs for an American audience. That you don't see everyday.

It's not having a less than positive opinion about some aspect of another culture, it's suggesting that anything western is inherently both better than Japanese culture, and that Japan is totally into it strictly because western values are superior and Japan knows it

I don't anyone suggesting that here. Yes, someone dares to suggest that Takara appreciated the trappings of Western culture they got when they adopted the Transformers branding, based on statements Takara supposedly made, but that's hardly the same thing.

And yes, someone dares to acknowledge that Japanese writers injected cultural bits that they thought were corny and perhaps a little bit pandering, but that doesn't smack of racism to me either, because as far as I can tell, the discussion was limited to Transformers and maybe "corny asian humor", not which culture is superior as a whole.

So one more time: Japan did NOT get the Transformers Hasbro/Marvel Studios created. They took the animation and retasked it with a totally new score, new writing, and new actors. HEY, JUST LIKE ROBOTECH.

Or do you want to argue that Robotech is exactly the same thing as Macross?

425897[/snapback]

Course not. But we can note pandering, corny, silly Americanisms in Robotech without implying that Japanese culture is automatically better than American culture. Hey, just like we can do in reverse with Transformers.

What's ironic is that I didn't intitially think the "child porn" used to market KISSPLAY Transformers that big a deal, and thought "oh, that's just a cultural thing". And it is-- animated, underage girls depicted in sexually suggestive poses and situations is a very Japanese thing. That sort of thing might once only have appeared in the ecchi subculture, but it's mainstream enough now to be plastered on toy packaging, presumably to be displayed on retail shelves. Yes, it's a Japanese "adaptation", but after reading this thread and thinking about it, it's also kind of screwed up. And we don't have to be racists to think or say so.

[Vermillion21]

Fit For Natalie - Thanks for the TF minicon pics mate! I love the fighter and motorcycle; the rest .... meh.

They're mighty robots AND mighty vehicles! What's NOT to love?

Ha ha ... funny GoBots comment, love it mate!

[Doctor Reggae]

Ah, Gobots. I had a few of the little barstards, but they mostly served as cannon fodder during my big Transformers battles. Since their limbs always came off easily, they looked great as battlefield casualties, especially in front of the mega TF fortress I used to make.

[GobotFool]

Fit For Natalie - Thanks for the TF minicon pics mate!  I love the fighter and motorcycle; the rest .... meh.

They're mighty robots AND mighty vehicles! What's NOT to love?

Ha ha ... funny GoBots comment, love it mate!

426016[/snapback]

I like gobots.... I always considered them the hotwheels of transforming toys.

[Fit For Natalie]

Uhm, Leader-1 was an F-15, just like Starscream and company, not an F-14. If you want a Transformer F-14, try Leozak/Autobot Rescue Jet or whatever.

425972[/snapback]

Yeah---I wonder why I see multiple people commenting about the new F-14 and Leader-1.  It still amazes me how many TF fans can spend years staring at the seeker mold, and still not recognize an F-15.  Leader-1, Air Raid (Aerialbot), and Starscream are all F-15's---and IIRC Leader-1 actually is the most accurate of them all.  I learned how to recognize the Nissan 280 because of Bluestreak...

425992[/snapback]

Well, I was commenting more on the fact he is (to my recollection) the first normal fighter plane minicon (like Micromasters) that isn't some weird space shuttle concept, concord, stealth bomber/spy plane or super-gonzo bomber thing (Gunbarrel).

So I'll take any fighter I can get and call him Leader-1. THEY SHOULD ALL BE NAMED LEADER-1!

Edited August 18, 2006 by Fit For Natalie

[azrael]

http://www.cinescape.com/0/editorial.asp?a...38&obj_id=52024

Stay tuned!

[Dobber]

Huh, I thought they already told us that? I take it they aren't going to show us the designs, but just give us names.

Chris

[JB0]

Well, I was commenting more on the fact he is (to my recollection) the first normal fighter plane minicon (like Micromasters) that isn't some weird space shuttle concept, concord, stealth bomber/spy plane or super-gonzo bomber thing (Gunbarrel).

426084[/snapback]

There was also a big Leader-1. That was the one I had.

And whatzisface... Warpath, I think... was Transformers miniplane.

[Ginrai]

There was also a big Leader-1. That was the one I had.

And whatzisface... Warpath, I think... was Transformers miniplane.

426178[/snapback]

Warpath is a tank. You mean Powerglide.

[azrael]

From the webcast:

Confirmed list:

Autobots:

Optimus Prime

Bumblebee

Jazz

Ratchet

Ironhide

Decepticons:

Megatron

Starscream

Brawl

Bonecrusher

Barricade

Scorponok

Frenzy (was initially going to be Soundwave)

Blackout

They said they had problems with Soundwave's size with his design so they opted to just change him to Frenzy and have a scout-classed Decepticon instead of Soundwave.

To note, they said they had lots of design issues which is why Bumblebee is not a Volkswagon Beetle.

[David Hingtgen]

Barricade and Blackout? If I don't recognize the names instantly, 99% of the people watching the movie won't either. I thought the movie was going to be "ultra-famous" TFs only. The Autobots sure are. Even Brawl isn't "first tier", and Bonecrusher only barely.

Only Barricade and Blackout I can think of are from the neo-Bruticus combiner team recently. (about the only ones of that line I bought, because the team leader was such a good toy--best TF in years IMHO)

[GobotFool]

http://flickr.com/photos/lights/218633474/

Bumblebee....

What was that Mr Bay... You wanted them to look realistic? tell me how the hell this realistically can transform into a camero without a sh!t load of movie magic.

[Veritas]

http://flickr.com/photos/lights/218633474/

Bumblebee....

What was that Mr Bay... You wanted them to look realistic? tell me how the hell this realistically can transform into a camero without a sh!t load of movie magic.

426257[/snapback]

If that’s true, that looks absolutely hideous. I had more than my doubts about the direction of this movie, but that’s the straw that broke the camel’s back for me. That no where near resembles any “Transformer†I have seen. It only can be considered a Transformer because of it’s ability to be a vehicle and… and an erector set monstrosity.

For the life of me I’ll never understand why they didn’t take Binaltech/Alternators into consideration when designing the robot bodies for use in the movie. Hell they could have saved themselves tons of trouble by just using the respective Alternator counterparts as a basis from which to build the movie robots from. At least for the Autobots, you’ve already got Prime and Jazz. Ratchet and Ironhide wouldn’t be that hard to do from either the Dodge Ram bodies or the Scions and as for Bumblebee:

http://tfkenkon.com/g/?mode=view&album=BTC...e=1000&start=25

I want to like this movie because it’s Transformers, but there’s no way I can myself paying to support this movie in anyway. Free Screening, sure I’ll go, but otherwise, I’ll wait til it hits TNT.