Official Transformers Super Thread 3

[Vermillion21]

Picked up Primus today.  Pretty small in comparison to Unicron, but he transforms into an even smaller Cybertron.  But still dead cool.  Even comes with a severed Unicron head.

424526[/snapback]

Can you post some pics mate?

[areaseven]

cool meister K.O. but his legs are mis-transformed.

424372[/snapback]

Yeah, but you didn't have to quote that pic, did you?

Edited August 16, 2006 by areaseven

[Kin]

OMG... I'm getting sick.. freakin childporn

Edited August 13, 2006 by Kin

[Metal_Massacre_79]

STOP QUOTING PICTURES! There is NO need for it.

[Seven]

I got a question for you toy experts. I have an old original Megatron that has a problem where the chrome plated plastic on his chest and arms has started to tarnish or lose its sparkle. Any tips on restoring it back to original state if possible?

[VF-19]

Picked up Primus today.  Pretty small in comparison to Unicron, but he transforms into an even smaller Cybertron.  But still dead cool.  Even comes with a severed Unicron head.

424526[/snapback]

Can you post some pics mate?

424581[/snapback]

Don't need to: Go here and here for pictures of Primus.

[Fit For Natalie]

You gona cite some sources for your ramblings, Fit? Cuz I just see you talking out of your ass for about fifty pages.

424303[/snapback]

How charming.

1. G1 Convoy and Beast Convoy were the most popular versions of Convoy, both were american creations. After the US G1 series ended with the Rebirth, Takara took over creative control of the series beginning with Headmasters, and changed the tone of the series from a US-style cartoon to a more traditional anime.

According to the japanese fandom, this lead to a drop off of interest. The height of this was during the very non-Transformer-like Super God Masterforce series when the primary series writer clashed with the fandom.

Where Takara has taken a heavy hand in the dubbing and change of tone of a US series has also affected its popularity. The initial dub of Beast Wars, while changed in tone to make it more child-friendly, was popular and sucessful. However, Takara's japan-made follow ups, Beast Wars The Second and Beast Wars Neo, were much less popular. While the japanese fandom enjoyed the US's season 2 and 3 of Beast Wars (prpesumebly from local subs), they openly hated the japanese dub of those seasons, Beast Wars Metals, which completely changed the tone from a dark, serious series to light-hearted camp. For some reason Megatron sounded like a woman.

I could go on about the subsequent Car Robots series that nearly sent Takara into serious financial difficulty.

2. The apparent fact that Japanese fans prefer Alternators to Binaltechs was stated in The Transformers Binaltech & TF Collection Complete Guide (published by Aspect, originally released March 2005) in an interview with Takara.

(Translated) Firstly, why do domestic and overseas versions use different materials for the toy's body? The "grass always looks greener on the other side" phenomenon is in motion, as overseas fans purchase the domestic versions because they adore the solid look and the feel of its coating, while domestic fans go after overseas versions because they can be transformed and played with casually without the fear of paint-chipping and other damages.

3. Binaltech did not sell very well. Binaltech Asterisk went on clearance, and had complaints of poor quality control (in particular Alert had poor parts fitting in vehicle mode). Kiss Play is a similar line in concept to Binaltech Asterisk, except its plastic and its sexualised.

There is criticism from the Japanese fandom about Kiss Play, they think its a stupid idea.

EDIT: The webmaster of Invincible Robot Laboratory, a japanese site (who also owns Alt Prime and Alt Nemesis Prime) says Kiss Convoy has loose joints and has a tendancy to fall over.

Edited August 13, 2006 by Fit For Natalie

[captain america]

G1 Convoy was an american creation? I thought that it was initially part of a toy line called Diaclone before being one of many designs merged into the Transformers line by Hasbro. Unless I'm totally off, since I'm not really an expert on TF and its genesis.

[buddhafabio]

G1 Convoy was an american creation? I thought that it was initially part of a toy line called Diaclone before being one of many designs merged into the Transformers line by Hasbro. Unless I'm totally off, since I'm not really an expert on TF and its genesis.

424752[/snapback]

i am no expert either. but i seem to recall that he indeed was a diaclone.

[eugimon]

G1 Convoy was an american creation? I thought that it was initially part of a toy line called Diaclone before being one of many designs merged into the Transformers line by Hasbro. Unless I'm totally off, since I'm not really an expert on TF and its genesis.

424752[/snapback]

i am no expert either. but i seem to recall that he indeed was a diaclone.

424753[/snapback]

yes he was. the toy was a diaclone, the character was american.

[buddhafabio]

well most of them are the same also.from megatron to the seekers to the dinobots. and most of the first season autobots.

[JB0]

But the characters are what was being sold.

That's why Transformers repaints rapidly replaced the original japanese toys.

[David Hingtgen]

Exactly. Characterization is very important---Starscream and Thundercracker are the same toy, it's their personalities that have earned them fans--and more importantly, television ratings and toy sales.

Beast Wars---the characters sold the toys. No line emphasized that more---a lot of the early toys were pretty mediocre, but you bought the toys because you liked the characters.

Armada/Energon----saw lots of comments over the years contrasting it to Beast Wars---you bought the toys IN SPITE OF the characters.

Characterization matters a lot--at least to anyone over 8 years old.

Edited August 13, 2006 by David Hingtgen

[eugimon]

blah blah.

the irvine spectrum target had two titanium megatrons left as of 2:30pm today.

[ComicKaze]

But the characters are what was being sold.

That's why Transformers repaints rapidly replaced the original japanese toys.

424787[/snapback]

or maybe it's just because Hasbro/Marvel/Sunbow had the money to pony for an animated series and comics...while Takara could only manage a few blurbs in their toy catalogues about the Diaclone / Waruder war (which I think would have made a much better series).

[JB0]

But the characters are what was being sold.

That's why Transformers repaints rapidly replaced the original japanese toys.

424787[/snapback]

or maybe it's just because Hasbro/Marvel/Sunbow had the money to pony for an animated series and comics...while Takara could only manage a few blurbs in their toy catalogues about the Diaclone / Waruder war (which I think would have made a much better series).

As far as I know, there weren't any really well-established characters in the Diaclone line. Just some names.

Either way, my point was that if it was the toy and not the character that was being sold, they wouldn't have wasted the cash to convert the japanese toys over to the Transformers paint scheme and packaging style.

Edited August 14, 2006 by JB0

[Fit For Natalie]

Anyway, the point was that Hasbro/Marvel's characterisation is what sells Transformers in the US and Japan. Its been pointed out that sentient robots are not uncommon in Japanese robot culture, but I suspect the difference TF had was that the Transformers acted just like everyday humans (especially the Autobots), with a strong emphasis on western values (Takara's TF guys have said they admire that about TFs).

G1 Prime and Beast Wars Primal were popular because they were american characters, and thus different. Subsequent Convoys were generic japanese heroes, either stereotyped badass loners (Big Convoy), mecha with a hot shot pilot who came to the job unwittingly (Masterforce Ginrai) or cardboard cut out pompously heroic Big Man (Just about all of them eventually).

Very unimaginative.

Diaclone, if it was made into an anime, seemed like it would be 'Just Another Japanese Mecha Series', but with cars and trucks instead of military robots. No doubt there would be love triangles, friends made and broken, betrayals and all the other generic things you find in many, many mecha series.

On a side note - I love Armada Starscream. Such a tortured character.

[Vermillion21]

Picked up Primus today.  Pretty small in comparison to Unicron, but he transforms into an even smaller Cybertron.  But still dead cool.  Even comes with a severed Unicron head.

424526[/snapback]

Can you post some pics mate?

424581[/snapback]

Don't need to: Go here and here for pictures of Primus.

424677[/snapback]

Thanks for the links - that figure is sweet!! Hmmm, may have to budget for this ...

[Hoptimus]

I picked up Titanium War Within Optimus Prime 6" Transformable. IF you are a War Within fan you have to have this. Awesome toy. Die cast and posable. He will probably get froppy though because they are all ball/screw joints. No ratchets. For 15 bucks though its worth having.

[Ginrai]

Dude, you don't understand Ginrai at all. He's a truck driver who drinks a lot. A truck driver that accidently gets a truck that turns in a robot. That's so cool it's not even funny. He's woefully inequipped to save anything, and his approach to fighting Destrons is to just punch them until they stop moving.

Also, whenever something dramatic happens he drops his beer. That's so funny!

[VF5SS]

You gona cite some sources for your ramblings, Fit? Cuz I just see you talking out of your ass for about fifty pages.

424303[/snapback]

How charming.

424745[/snapback]

I can't believe I had to ask you for souces. Why didn't you do this in the first place? Can I see some numbers on the first bit? I'd like to judge for myself.

[rosedoggydog]

well most of them are the same also.from megatron to the seekers to the dinobots. and most of the first season autobots.

424756[/snapback]

All the season 1 and 2 TF's were diaclone toys orignally (supposedly). It wasn't until that nifty commerical TF:TM that hasbro start getting original (Hot Rod, Rodimus Prime).

[GobotFool]

well most of them are the same also.from megatron to the seekers to the dinobots. and most of the first season autobots.

424756[/snapback]

All the season 1 and 2 TF's were diaclone toys orignally (supposedly). It wasn't until that nifty commerical TF:TM that hasbro start getting original (Hot Rod, Rodimus Prime).

425104[/snapback]

well omega, the deluxes, jetfire, were taken from other lines, but yeah, the toys of series 1 and 2 were compleatly of japanese origin.

[GobotFool]

http://www.bigbadtoystore.com/bbts/product...tail&picture=in

Damn, look at that price. Crappy packaging, crappy accessories, and a massive price increase, I think takatomy is trying to kill TFers....

[Twoducks]

Anyway, the point was that Hasbro/Marvel's characterisation is what sells Transformers in the US and Japan. Its been pointed out that sentient robots are not uncommon in Japanese robot culture, but I suspect the difference TF had was that the Transformers acted just like everyday humans (especially the Autobots), with a strong emphasis on western values (Takara's TF guys have said they admire that about TFs).

G1 Prime and Beast Wars Primal were popular because they were american characters, and thus different. Subsequent Convoys were generic japanese heroes, either stereotyped badass loners (Big Convoy), mecha with a hot shot pilot who came to the job unwittingly (Masterforce Ginrai) or cardboard cut out pompously heroic Big Man (Just about all of them eventually).

Very unimaginative.

Diaclone, if it was made into an anime, seemed like it would be 'Just Another Japanese Mecha Series', but with cars and trucks instead of military robots. No doubt there would be love triangles, friends made and broken, betrayals and all the other generic things you find in many, many mecha series.

On a side note - I love Armada Starscream. Such a tortured character.

424908[/snapback]

Shintoism has animistic roots so the idea of a sentient machine wouldn’t be so hard for a Japanese to grasp, certainly not harder than it is for a westerner.

Astroboy, the very famous robot boy, acted long before Transformers like a living being (he even had “parents†like a normal kid would) and even when you have robots only as soulless machines in anime they are treated in a special way. Characters (not only the main pilot) give thanks to their Gundams and Mazingers when they win the battle, cry when they get trashed or have other reaction that only show that those soulless “machine†mean more. You don’t see G.I Joe characters doing this with their vehicles.

So all this “Tranformers being an alien concept to the other side of the pond†doesn’t hold much.

If the franchise was turned into a sentai/pokemon thing it’s because, well, those kinds of shows are what has earned other companies truck loads of cash before out of kids; more than the exotic western property created to sell toys to kids. Some sentai and super robot shows still work as do other pokemon rip-offs so the writer and director choices Takara made are to blame, not only the genre selected (witch could have worked if done right).

I love G1, but it mostly because of sentimental and nostalgic reasons, not because of the quality of the show. Seeing some episodes after years shows that time sure has passed and that I liked the cartoon because I was a kid and I liked robots; not because of an ingenious concept of sentient robots. Some things are better left of as just memories.

In my memory some characters remain as great, but character development was very lacking and there were tons of flat robots walking around the scream, as you would expect from a cartoon made to sell toys to kids.

And Hasbro didn’t have the brilliant idea of making Beast Wars a series that centres in a small group of well developed characters with witty dialog. Bob Forward and Larry Ditillio, the writers of Beast Wars did. And as they have said in interviews, it was mostly out of necessity. They didn’t have a clue about Transformers, had a tight budged and had the limitations of CG animation (water was a no at first). There was no money and time to make the legion of characters models Hasbro wanted for their toy line. They had to centre on the few characters they could have, throw some G1 bones to the TF fanboys and luckily for us (and Hasbro’s pockets), all that pressure spawned something very good out of them. You don’t need all the G1 references to see this was a good show.

So you could say Hasbro got lucky with Beast Wars, the series that gave the TF franchise a new life.

[JB0]

well most of them are the same also.from megatron to the seekers to the dinobots. and most of the first season autobots.

424756[/snapback]

All the season 1 and 2 TF's were diaclone toys orignally (supposedly). It wasn't until that nifty commerical TF:TM that hasbro start getting original (Hot Rod, Rodimus Prime).

425104[/snapback]

well omega, the deluxes, jetfire, were taken from other lines, but yeah, the toys of series 1 and 2 were compleatly of japanese origin.

425106[/snapback]

And Shockwave.

Weren't the minis(Bumblebee and company) non-diaclone too?

[Fit For Natalie]

I can't believe I had to ask you for souces. Why didn't you do this in the first place? Can I see some numbers on the first bit? I'd like to judge for myself.

425022[/snapback]

There are no numbers - this is judged from what japanese people say, and the fact Takara seem to flog more stuff from the US creation and US fiction than they do of their own japanese creations.

well most of them are the same also.from megatron to the seekers to the dinobots. and most of the first season autobots.

424756[/snapback]

All the season 1 and 2 TF's were diaclone toys orignally (supposedly). It wasn't until that nifty commerical TF:TM that hasbro start getting original (Hot Rod, Rodimus Prime).

425104[/snapback]

That is correct - all of the 1984-1985 bots were from various japanese toylines, and the sheer majority of the non-Takara toys were never released in Japan. I believe only Shockwave was released out of the Bandai (or whomever) toys.

Shintoism has animistic roots so the idea of a senient machine wouldn’t be so hard for a Japanese to grasp, certainly not harder than it is for a westerner.

Astroboy, the very famous robot boy, acted long before Transformers like a living being (he even had “parents†like a normal kid would) and even when you have robots only as soulless machines in anime they are treated in a special way.

So all this “Tranformers being an alien concept to the other side of the pond†doesn’t hold much.

If the franchise was turned into a sentai/pokemon thing it’s because, well, those kinds of shows are what has earned other companies truck loads of cash before out of kids; more than the exotic western property created to sell toys to kids. Some sentai and super robot shows still work as do other pokemon rip-offs so the writer and director choices Takara made are to blame, not only the genre selected (witch could have worked if done right). 

I love G1, but it mostly because of sentimental and nostalgic reasons, not because of the quality of the show. Seeing some episodes after years shows that time sure has passed and that I liked the cartoon because I was a kid and I liked robots; not because of an ingenious concept of sentient robots. Some things are better left of as just memories.

In my memory some characters remain as great, but character development was very lacking and there were tons of flat robots walking around the scream, as you would expect from a cartoon made to sell toys to kids.

And Hasbro didn’t have the brilliant idea of making Beast Wars a series that centres in a small group of well developed characters with witty dialog. Bob Forward and Larry Ditillio, the writers of Beast Wars did. And as they have said in interviews, it was mostly out of necessity. They didn’t have a clue about Transformers, had a tight budged and had the limitations of CG animation (water was a no at first). There was no money and time to make the legion of characters models Hasbro wanted for their toy line. They had to centre on the few characters they could have, throw some G1 bones to the TF fanboys and luckily for us (and Hasbro’s pockets), all that pressure spawned something very good out of them. You don’t need all the G1 references to see this was a good show. 

So you could say Hasbro got lucky with Beast Wars, the series that gave the TF franchise a new life.

425155[/snapback]

Like I said, while the concept of sentient living robots aren't foriegn to Japanese fiction, Transformers were different from the norm because of their western values and their western personalities. And of course the western presentation of the series.

Go look at Headmasters, or Masterforce. Generic japanese kids series where woman are put in their place (NO, Arcee! You cannot come with me! You must stay behind and be the Cybertron Office Lady!!), a largely increased human participation (to the point of being critical to the good guys sucess) and bad asian humour.

I don't even like G1 very much - I watch it for nostalic and comedic reasons.

And while I agree that Hasbro didn't have much to do with the storyline quality of BW (at times the toy development interferred with the natural flow of the series, and they demanded more humour in season 3), you should acknowledge that TF series from the US, or with US/Hasbro involvement shows a distinct different difference in tone (maturity) to the series developed wholly by Takara.

Even predominantly japanese series like Armada, Energon and Cybertron are completely different to camp comedy series like BW 2, Neo and Car Robots.

Characters (not only the main pilot) give thanks to their Gundams and Mazingers when they win the battle, cry when they get trashed or have other reaction that only show that those soulless “machine†mean more. You don’t see G.I Joe characters doing this with their vehicles.

Because that would look extrodinarily stupid in western fiction. Affection for your vehicle perhaps, but crying? Ugh.

[Ginrai]

Go look at Headmasters, or Masterforce. Generic japanese kids series where woman are put in their place (NO, Arcee! You cannot come with me! You must stay behind and be the Cybertron Office Lady!!), a largely increased human participation (to the point of being critical to the good guys sucess) and bad asian humour.

425277[/snapback]

Congratulations! This is the most racist thing I've seen on this board yet.

[VF5SS]

There are no numbers - this is judged from what japanese people say, and the fact Takara seem to flog more stuff from the US creation and US fiction than they do of their own japanese creations.

No numbers = no proof = SHOVE IT! I don't want your speculation poo.

That is correct - all of the 1984-1985 bots were from various japanese toylines, and the sheer majority of the non-Takara toys were never released in Japan. I believe only Shockwave was released out of the Bandai (or whomever) toys.

Laserwave

Skylynx

And it was Toyco who created Shockwave, Omega Supreme, and Skylynx. Only the Takatoku toys were not released in Japan. Not that it matters since they were never in the show.

Like I said, while the concept of sentient living robots aren't foriegn to Japanese fiction, Transformers were different from the norm because of their western values and their western personalities. And of course the western presentation of the series.

Exactly what are these western values you keep talking about? Are you talking about the stupid Saturday Morning cartoon model of TV shows? They dubbed out all the western dialogue and changed the characters to reflect a more Japanese style show. The only thing they couldn't dub out would be the crappy animation and poor plots. Rattrap and Bumblebee became the cute characters, Convoy is more intense than Optimus, etc. All of Scramble City is pretty indicative of what Japan did to Transformers.

Go look at Headmasters, or Masterforce. Generic japanese kids series where woman are put in their place (NO, Arcee! You cannot come with me! You must stay behind and be the Cybertron Office Lady!!), a largely increased human participation (to the point of being critical to the good guys sucess) and bad asian humour.

You mean like how Arcee was a useless token female who took care of Daniel all the time? Or wait, that was in season 3! Doh!

Even predominantly japanese series like Armada, Energon and Cybertron are completely different to camp comedy series like BW 2, Neo and Car Robots.

This has nothing to do with the popular shows of the time being Zoids, Hikarian, Nadesco, Golden Brave Goldran, the Eldoran shows, Kabutack... THE 90's WERE A CAMPY DECADE FOR JAPANESE ROBOTS! Dubbed Beast Wars is campy. The Japanese Ninja Turtles show was campy. Do I have to go on?

Because that would look extrodinarily stupid in western fiction. Affection for your vehicle perhaps, but crying? Ugh.

425277[/snapback]

Man, you are totally insensitive.

[Ginrai]

VF5SS is completely right. Go watch the first few episodes of Headmasters and you'll see how drastically the characterization of the characters was altered for Japan. Rattrap is essentially Pikachu from Pokemon in Japan.

BWII, Neo, and CR reflected popular trends in anime in the mid to late 90's, just as Micron Legend, Super Link, and Galaxy Force reflect the popular trends now.

Then it was cheesy over the top camp, and now it's "dramatic" crap with obsessive collection gimmicks and badly compositing shoddy low grade CG robots with digitally drawn 2D human characters.

It's the in thing.

P.S. Note the other horrible trend in anime now being incorporated into Transformers -- moe. UGH. Kissplay Convoy = gross.

Edited August 15, 2006 by Ginrai

[Twoducks]

And while I agree that Hasbro didn't have much to do with the storyline quality of BW (at times the toy development interferred with the natural flow of the series, and they demanded more humour in season 3), you should acknowledge that TF series from the US, or with US/Hasbro involvement shows a distinct different difference in tone (maturity) to the series developed wholly by Takara.

The TF series from the US? Do you mean the G1 stuff and Best Wars stuff? That ain't much. You yourself leave G1 in nostalgialand.

Beat Wars "maturity" was mainly due to the circumstances that gave birth to it (like the inability to have the legion of characters Hasbro wanted) and when it changed to Beast Machines it just continued that formula (read: sequel) with the same characters but with less talented writers behind it.

Where do I find all those other truck loads of maturity from the last 20 years? The flipping CG cube thing edited in the old cartoon matured the show in a way in the early 90's? Did the American dubs of the Takara series upgrade the maturity level from the usual kiddie target audience of sentai/pokemon stuff to higher levels? Either way I could only stand two episodes of those recent shows, and I saw the American versions.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but don’t associate TF with maturity. I can do that with Best Wars, but I prefer to associate it with a character driven show whose quality owned a lot to the circumstances that spawned it, not something that was thought out beforehand.

What I see is that Hasbro TF are a Saturday morning cartoon franchise and Takara TF are an anime franchise. You switch countries and they magically look fresh when compared to all the usual stuff on TV.

Characters (not only the main pilot) give thanks to their Gundams and Mazingers when they win the battle, cry when they get trashed or have other reaction that only show that those soulless “machine†mean more. You don’t see G.I Joe characters doing this with their vehicles.

Because that would look extrodinarily stupid in western fiction. Affection for your vehicle perhaps, but crying? Ugh.

425277[/snapback]

And yet in the real world some people are doing just that because of the colours or hip crap of a toy that nobody is making them buy.

BTW, I would surely cry if my expensive as hell Gundam got scratched

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

You mean like how Arcee was a useless token female who took care of Daniel all the time? Or wait, that was in season 3! Doh!

Ass-y actually protected hotrod in the movie from SS laser fire. I think she might be a little like princess leia.

And there were token black guy and token asian ninja robots in the series too.

I definately remember a ninja robot in the series somewhere.

Note the buns on the head?

Edited August 16, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[JB0]

BTW, I would surely cry if my expensive as hell Gundam got scratched 

425407[/snapback]

But the anime characters don't have to pay for their own.

[Vermillion21]

Ass-y actually protected hotrod in the movie from SS laser fire. I think she might be a little like princess leia.

Note the buns on the head?

425466[/snapback]

Good call mate.

[areaseven]

STOP QUOTING PICTURES! There is NO need for it.

424632[/snapback]

Then go tell the mods. Last time I reported all the rampant picture quoting around here, all they did was slap a custom title on me to show that they don't care.