Official Transformers Super Thread 3

[JB0]

While there's all this debate about realism of Transformer's alternate modes, I'd like to discuss the whole "Robots In Disguise" premise.

I find it amusing that the whole "Robots In Disguise" pretty much went out the window when they introduced Metroplex and Trypticon in the G1 Line. I mean, these guys were friggin cities that transformed into robots.

like i'd be driving and go "hey, i don't remember there being a city here!"

"huh, i don't remember seeing it yesterday"

"oh well, I must be remembering wrong...nope you're not a robot...yup, you're definitely a city"

Yeah but I reason that it became convenient to stay into cars once they realised the humans were not cars but flesh and bone organisms. At first it was a disguise (just like the vf1 being kept a secret by the military about being transformable into a giant robot as long as possible) but then as time went on, alternate modes aided them in certain tasks.

Take devastor for example he can actually be useful as a set of construction robots when used in vehicle mode. By transforming into those things you can actually do useful task as well as kick ass in robot mode equiped with standard weapons for fighting and stuff. Humans use and built construction vehicles because they are useful to us, so the question is: "why not steal our designs or way of doing things for convenience?"

422400[/snapback]

Right. The disguise part went out the window as soon as they realized vehicles needed squishie pilots or they'd be spotted real fast.

Hence, the Dinobots were created.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

hehe, tinted windows would solve that.

And in the terminator movies: wasn't the logical conclusion of the robots and AI, to just replace us? They had assasins whose robotic body looked just like us to blend in, and BANG! they would surprise attack our cities and villages by sneaking past our defense in disguised form.

Which is why the dogs are the only things able to sense a fake human (disguised robot assasin with organic material on top) due to thier sense of smell. Wolverine actually does this a lot in the x-men comics whenever encountering a shapeshifter trying to pass as another person.

From a distance the diguise might still be useful though, and so they keep it. But maybe the transformers move about so that you never really get a good opportunity to see them close. (like superman who really can just appear out of nowhere to save the day, and then fly away and go about his business)

At least the ninja turtles had the excuse that they were these ninjas who can hide in the shadow and that by living in a sewer nobody would really see one of the mutants in person. With the TF, all you got is thier alt mode.

Edit:

I like to think of it this way: the robots assuming that aliens must be machine-like in nature is no different to us assuming that aliens must be like us or similar to the way we do things with only a few minor differences. ie the various intelligent alien races in star trek which usually have mainly humanoid features we can identify with for example, and not something like the alien in the movie Contact or Final Fantasy:TSW which is more like a ghost or something.

Edited August 4, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[wolfx]

While there's all this debate about realism of Transformer's alternate modes, I'd like to discuss the whole "Robots In Disguise" premise.

I find it amusing that the whole "Robots In Disguise" pretty much went out the window when they introduced Metroplex and Trypticon in the G1 Line.  I mean, these guys were friggin cities that transformed into robots.

like i'd be driving and go "hey, i don't remember there being a city here!" 

"huh, i don't remember seeing it yesterday"

"oh well, I must be remembering wrong...nope you're not a robot...yup, you're definitely a city"   

422376[/snapback]

LOL! I believe it went out the window way before metroplex and trypticon.

Originally they were meant to "blend" with watever planet they land on so as not to cause "KULCHAAAAA" shock to the native life forms. Its like they'd get shot on sight and taken as invaders if they appeared as their original blobby-metal state self. So if they wanna stay disguised, they could remain as cars/trucks/postboxes/fondue pots and not talk.

But notice early into the series, they just make "public appearances" everywhere helping the needy or causing wanton destruction with newscasters reporting their exploits as well as the general public taking these aliens quite lightly as their saviours.

"Yay the autobots are here. We're saved!"

So much for robots in disguise. So since disguising themselves was out of the picture, let's introduce giant autobot city and deceipticon base. XD Nothing's cooler than a transforming city.

[JB0]

Edit:

I like to think of it this way: the robots assuming that aliens must be machine-like in nature is no different to us assuming that aliens must be like us or similar to the way we do things with only a few minor differences. ie the various intelligent alien races in star trek which usually have mainly humanoid features we can identify with for example, and not something like the alien in the movie Contact or Final Fantasy:TSW which is more like a ghost or something.

422408[/snapback]

In Trek's case, it's due more to budgetary concerns.

Cheaper to slap pointy ears and a fake nose on a real actor than it is to create something new.

And then there was the Next Gen story to explain why everyone was so close to human. Turned out that the galaxy had been seeded with protolife by an ancient superspecies, so everyone looked the same because they WERE the same(protoculture, anyone?).

But I find that a serious failing in most sci-fi.

On Earth it took a cataclysmic disaster to even give the mammals a chance. Had Mexico not been smacked with a giant rock 65 million years ago, we might be just a tad scalier today.

I don't demand an exploration of alternative biochemistries or anything, but the assumption that parallel evolution will lead to all planets featuring a life form physically similar to humans at the top of the food chain is a tad weak.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

But notice early into the series, they just make "public appearances" everywhere helping the needy or causing wanton destruction with newscasters reporting their exploits as well as the general public taking these aliens quite lightly as their saviours.

"Yay the autobots are here. We're saved!"

Ok but remember how early in the x-men cartoon the x-men were sort of mysterious and nobody knew who they were or whether they even existed. (see the 90s cartoon in one of the early episodes where xaviar talks about this and he is watching the news. Hoping that mutants weren't going to be portrayed as ALL evil, just because of the actions of a few. This shows that mutated people with powers are a NEW thing to the world at large)

Maybe it is like that.

Sorta like this: xavier has these people educated in his school for gifted kids, but in reality he has them train to fight against evil. (there is an underground base and a war room for missions and all sorts of secret stuff too) They are sort of normal people like you and me and have normal lives, but they are not normal. That's how I like to think of it. The aliens speak and act like humans with thier own personalities but there is that "I must keep a low profile too."

The aliens once discovered have to make public appearance in order to not be portrayed as evil to the rest of the world and get a bad rep. Doing all the good deeds is thier way of ensuring people trust them, but that doesn't mean there is not a secret side to them or that while trying to fight evil aliens plotting to kill them off, that they can't keep a low profile. (ie stop megatron on earth from doing whatever he needs to do to defeat the autobots and endanger any humans)

So if the bad aliens do try to gain control, (like the rogue mutants that endanger humans) there is at least some group of aliens against them to combat these and act as protectors.

It goes back to the idea that the aliens can be heroes but retain some secrecy to do thier work properly. Why do the x-men need to use the blackbird to sneak around for example? I reason that some humans are going to be scared or hate them so it might be better to stay hidden to avoid panic and apply that to alien robots. Whether good or bad, it might just be scary for some to accept they exist, like some being freaked out seeing a car drive itself or a ghost. In the back of thier mind something tells them this is impossible but thier own eyes are saying the ghost or the alien really exists but they have to store it away somewhere to help them deal with what they are seeing. They are alien, they are robots.

Normally you would think: Robots can't think, robots can't feel, robots are things you see in a factory that is merely programmed to behave the way man builds them. But these robots are living things that crashed to earth aaages ago and fought wars long before human started to record thier own history. (they were asleep for ages and only woke up in modern time) So the natural reaction is the public would be shocked like when the existence of mutants was discovered with powers in x-men. (controlling weather, magnetism, superhuman strength, psychokinesis etc) If the robots were conscious of this, (us being scared of them) they might want to carry on with thier ancient war without really disturbing the native species and generally paying little regard to us. I mean if there was a war in the forest and you were a soldier for one side, would you actually care what the primitive wildlife (who are scared out of thier wits) are doing? No you would be concentrating on fighting and killing the enemy and battling them on all fronts. Not really studying what the animals are doing unless one of the missions is protecting them.

Edited August 4, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Southpaw Samurai]

One of the reasons I liked the comic book run was because they kept up the whole 'needing a disguise' thing much longer than the cartoon. The cartoon obviously wanted to make the Autobots heroes and the best way was to have everyone be able to recognize them and cheer them whenever they showed up. The comic book was able to play with the slightly more mature concept that even though they were the 'good guys' humans still would consider them just as bad as the Decepticons. So the Autobots still had to fear getting attacked moving about. Heck, at one point Bumblebee transformed to save some kid and G.I.Joe blew him to pieces for it.

[eugimon]

so, you're expecting adults, to revert to being a clumsy seven year old when they get this?

422289[/snapback]

No, I'm not. Care to put anymore words in my mouth? Or shall I make another post stating my opinion so you can nitpick? Seems like that is all you do.

422362[/snapback]

nah, it gets too confusing. First you say this:

Also, if I had this as a kid it would probably have been broken the first day I had it. It doesn't look very durable.

And then you say:

It's probably going to be as durable as any binaltech. And this isn't for kids, this is for adult collectors.

422242[/snapback]

I was responding to the person who was talking about how excited they would have been to get one as a kid. I know it isn't for children.

422250[/snapback]

the first statement clearly states that you, as a kid, would break it. Then, when you get called on it by gobotfool and you then say you were talking about adults all along... so it's only fair to conclude that you mean that adults, or maybe just you, would act like a child and break this toy when it comes out.

I'm just trying to better understand your position.

Edited August 4, 2006 by eugimon

[Dobber]

So let me get this straight....there is supposed to be an aircraft Alt. line!!!!!! Ever sinse I saw MP starscream and people have been battying that it doesn't look like him in bot mode I was wondering why they just didn't start an Aircraft alternater line with awesome looking aircraft but the bots don't look like the originals. GOD I hope they do that!!!!!

Chris

[Guest sh002]

this classic hot rod looks cool

[Zeta Otaku]

I am very impressed with the classics line... though Mirage looks a bit iffy.

I think I'm sticking with just two lines... Alts and Classics... maybe with a Masterpeice here and there

One classic I hope they remake is springer. I loved that toy as a kid and they could definitely use another triple changer in the line up... and an Ultra Magnus would be awesome if they did something other than a repaint of Prime.

[HoveringCheesecake]

the first statement clearly states that you, as a kid, would break it. Then, when you get called on it by gobotfool and you then say you were talking about adults all along... so it's only fair to conclude that you mean that adults, or maybe just you, would act like a child and break this toy when it comes out.

I'm just trying to better understand your position.

422486[/snapback]

I said it looked fragile. I never said it was designed for children.

As for the children breaking it - that was in response to a poster who stated that it would be great if he got the toy when he was a kid. (I.E. it is the Starscream he always wanted). That's why I said a kid would break it. That's my opinion, take it or leave it.

[JB0]

Heck, at one point Bumblebee transformed to save some kid and G.I.Joe blew him to pieces for it. 

422476[/snapback]

And then Superion shows up to retrieve Bumblebee's parts and G.I. Joe craps their collective pants while he blows a few hostile tanks up.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

One of the reasons I liked the comic book run was because they kept up the whole 'needing a disguise' thing much longer than the cartoon. The cartoon obviously wanted to make the Autobots heroes and the best way was to have everyone be able to recognize them and cheer them whenever they showed up. The comic book was able to play with the slightly more mature concept that even though they were the 'good guys' humans still would consider them just as bad as the Decepticons. So the Autobots still had to fear getting attacked moving about. Heck, at one point Bumblebee transformed to save some kid and G.I.Joe blew him to pieces for it.

If they were to remake G1 as a cartoon (update everyone's vehicle mode to something more modern, add in more details and make fights more meaningful etc) and give it a darker look and feel to it, (like they did for ninja turtles) I think I would prefer the comic style.

By "comic book style" I mean shading and more dull color tone rather than bright and flat shaded anime color.

Or just make a CG cartoon about the alternators.

[wolfx]

Colored pics of WST Grimlock are out.

http://www.tfsource.com/Reissues/WST%20Gri...20-%20sllag.htm

Pictures of MP04 Prime. Looks like a bigger version of the THS02.

[Vermillion21]

Sweet pics wolfx!!

And I'm with Dobber, is there suppose to be a TF Alternators line for aircraft?!?!

No way .....

[Fit For Natalie]

While there's all this debate about realism of Transformer's alternate modes, I'd like to discuss the whole "Robots In Disguise" premise.

I find it amusing that the whole "Robots In Disguise" pretty much went out the window when they introduced Metroplex and Trypticon in the G1 Line.  I mean, these guys were friggin cities that transformed into robots.

like i'd be driving and go "hey, i don't remember there being a city here!" 

"huh, i don't remember seeing it yesterday"

"oh well, I must be remembering wrong...nope you're not a robot...yup, you're definitely a city"   

422376[/snapback]

LOL! I believe it went out the window way before metroplex and trypticon.

Originally they were meant to "blend" with watever planet they land on so as not to cause "KULCHAAAAA" shock to the native life forms. Its like they'd get shot on sight and taken as invaders if they appeared as their original blobby-metal state self. So if they wanna stay disguised, they could remain as cars/trucks/postboxes/fondue pots and not talk.

But notice early into the series, they just make "public appearances" everywhere helping the needy or causing wanton destruction with newscasters reporting their exploits as well as the general public taking these aliens quite lightly as their saviours.

"Yay the autobots are here. We're saved!"

So much for robots in disguise. So since disguising themselves was out of the picture, let's introduce giant autobot city and deceipticon base. XD Nothing's cooler than a transforming city.

422443[/snapback]

Robots In Disguise was mostly a marketing slogan to sell the fact that they are robots that turn into other stuff, even though other lines had already done so. More often TFs use their alt modes as a form of locomotion and combat than as a useful disguise.

Metroplex and Trypticon served as a component of the respective headquarters of the Autobots and Decepticons after the movie, so they're not really disguises.

Teletraan-1 reconfiguered the heavily-damaged, stasis-locked Autobots and Decepticons into Earth vehicles and mechanical objects because they were the only things on Earth it recognised. By the time of Beast Wars, they were advanced enough to recognise and take on organic forms, even though their pre-Beast Wars bodies were entirely mechanical.

Besides, TF isn't meant to be taken Ultra Earnestly Serious With Exacting Detail like Macross or Gundam, and to try and take them on with that mindset is pointless. TF is meant to be fun.

One classic I hope they remake is springer. I loved that toy as a kid and they could definitely use another triple changer in the line up... and an Ultra Magnus would be awesome if they did something other than a repaint of Prime.

422542[/snapback]

Unlikely to happen - they did a Springer update back in Energon, and he's probably too obscure to do again. I'd expect somebody like... Blitzwing before Springer.

[David Hingtgen]

Also, Springer kind of sucks in all 3 modes, whereas Astrotrain was the best triple-changer by far. (I'm a huge Bliztwing fan, but admit has a worse robot mode than Astrotrain---and jet mode is rather blocky, even accounting for the MiG-25 itself being rather blocky).

Of course, there's always Octane... I love airliners, and I like tanker trucks. And don't forget Doubledealer, even though he's more remembered for being a double-powermaster and allegiance switcher (like Punch/Counterpunch). He was a very fun toy with an awesome vehicle mode, one of the better G1 bird modes, and a decent robot. (Standard G1 brick, but what wasn't during that year?)

Decepticons had better triple-changers than Autobots, hands down.

Edited August 5, 2006 by David Hingtgen

[Kin]

Also, Springer kind of sucks in all 3 modes, whereas Astrotrain was the best triple-changer by far.  (I'm a huge Bliztwing fan, but admit has a worse robot mode than Astrotrain---and jet mode is rather blocky, even accounting for the MiG-25 itself being rather blocky).   

Of course, there's always Octane...  I love airliners, and I like tanker trucks.    And don't forget Doubledealer, even though he's more remembered for being a double-powermaster and allegiance switcher (like Punch/Counterpunch).  He was a very fun toy with an awesome vehicle mode, one of the better G1 bird modes, and a decent robot.  (Standard G1 brick, but what wasn't during that year?) 

Decepticons had better triple-changers than Autobots, hands down.

422725[/snapback]

yeah, the bird and missile launcher.. the only downside is his big head (that goes for other pm too)

[ComicKaze]

no roller!

[David Hingtgen]

You have to join the club to get Roller.

That's Takara's new strategy--want the version everyone wants/expects in the first place? Have to join the club and pay extra. Only way to get G1-colored MP Starscream, and Roller.

It's completely backwards from how it should be. The clear/black/etc versions should be club exclusives, not the "right" versions.

Next, they'll make whatever the new Prime is blue, and red Prime will be the exclusive...

[GobotFool]

You have to join the club to get Roller.

That's Takara's new strategy--want the version everyone wants/expects in the first place?  Have to join the club and pay extra.  Only way to get G1-colored MP Starscream, and Roller. 

It's completely backwards from how it should be.  The clear/black/etc versions should be club exclusives, not the "right" versions. 

Next, they'll make whatever the new Prime is blue, and red Prime will be the exclusive...

422812[/snapback]

Gah! Where do I have to sign up? Or can only residents of Japan sign up? I guess Its off to evilbay to get the proper Starscream schem and Roller.

[Vermillion One]

I was just about to ask the same question. Does anyone know where we have to go to sign up?

[UN Spacy]

You have to join the club to get Roller.

That's Takara's new strategy--want the version everyone wants/expects in the first place?  Have to join the club and pay extra.  Only way to get G1-colored MP Starscream, and Roller. 

It's completely backwards from how it should be.  The clear/black/etc versions should be club exclusives, not the "right" versions. 

Next, they'll make whatever the new Prime is blue, and red Prime will be the exclusive...

422812[/snapback]

Who's the marketing genius that came up with that idea?

WHY!?!?!?!?

[Kin]

You have to join the club to get Roller.

That's Takara's new strategy--want the version everyone wants/expects in the first place?  Have to join the club and pay extra.   Only way to get G1-colored MP Starscream, and Roller.  

It's completely backwards from how it should be.  The clear/black/etc versions should be club exclusives, not the "right" versions.  

Next, they'll make whatever the new Prime is blue, and red Prime will be the exclusive...

422812[/snapback]

Who's the marketing genius that came up with that idea?

WHY!?!?!?!?

422840[/snapback]

To keep us thinking about new improvements... new models... and ofcourse spending your money in an endless continuation.

[Vermillion21]

To keep us thinking about new improvements... new models... and ofcourse spending your money in an endless continuation.

Greedy bastards!!!

[JB0]

You have to join the club to get Roller.

That's Takara's new strategy--want the version everyone wants/expects in the first place?  Have to join the club and pay extra.  Only way to get G1-colored MP Starscream, and Roller. 

It's completely backwards from how it should be.  The clear/black/etc versions should be club exclusives, not the "right" versions. 

Next, they'll make whatever the new Prime is blue, and red Prime will be the exclusive...

422812[/snapback]

Or worse, they'll change MP-04 to Pepsi Prime at the last minute and the one we've all seen so far will be a club exclusive.

[UN Spacy]

To keep us thinking about new improvements... new models... and ofcourse spending your money in an endless continuation.

Greedy bastards!!!

422870[/snapback]

I just canceled my order from HLJ.com.......fawk it.

[Eazy D]

To whoever posted the comparison pic between MP SS and GI thundercracker:

SPOT ON BROTHER!!

Why has no one complained that in addition to giving us a robot with a skirt to pass off as MP SS we are also getting a jet mode that isn't even SS in the first place......How the hell do they plan to do a thundercracker repaint now????

I don't really care about alt mode realuism too much in a masterpiece. The MP line is all about super cartoon accurate bot modes with oodles of articulation and a pretty good alt mode. Prime was spot on.

Shoji Kawamori musn't have read his brief properly....he's gone and provided us with Alternator SS not MP SS.

[Kin]

To whoever posted the comparison pic between MP SS and GI thundercracker:

SPOT ON BROTHER!!

Why has no one complained that in addition to giving us a robot with a skirt to pass off as MP SS we are also getting a jet mode that isn't even SS in the first place......How the hell do they plan to do a thundercracker repaint now????

I don't really care about alt mode realuism too much in a masterpiece. The MP line is all about super cartoon accurate bot modes with oodles of articulation and a pretty good alt mode. Prime was spot on.

Shoji Kawamori musn't have read his brief properly....he's gone and provided us with Alternator SS not MP SS.

422903[/snapback]

You couldn't have said it better.

[JB0]

I don't really care about alt mode realuism too much in a masterpiece. The MP line is all about super cartoon accurate bot modes with oodles of articulation and a pretty good alt mode. Prime was spot on.

Shoji Kawamori musn't have read his brief properly....he's gone and provided us with Alternator SS not MP SS.

422903[/snapback]

I doubt Kawamori has anything to do with the paintjob.

And I still don't see a good way to get a cartoon-accurate Starscream without part-swapping.

[wolfx]

You have to join the club to get Roller.

That's Takara's new strategy--want the version everyone wants/expects in the first place?  Have to join the club and pay extra.   Only way to get G1-colored MP Starscream, and Roller.  

It's completely backwards from how it should be.  The clear/black/etc versions should be club exclusives, not the "right" versions.  

Next, they'll make whatever the new Prime is blue, and red Prime will be the exclusive...

422812[/snapback]

Who's the marketing genius that came up with that idea?

WHY!?!?!?!?

422840[/snapback]

Dudes...i think he was just being sarcastic.

[Twoducks]

To whoever posted the comparison pic between MP SS and GI thundercracker:

SPOT ON BROTHER!!

Why has no one complained that in addition to giving us a robot with a skirt to pass off as MP SS we are also getting a jet mode that isn't even SS in the first place......How the hell do they plan to do a thundercracker repaint now????

I don't really care about alt mode realuism too much in a masterpiece. The MP line is all about super cartoon accurate bot modes with oodles of articulation and a pretty good alt mode. Prime was spot on.

Shoji Kawamori musn't have read his brief properly....he's gone and provided us with Alternator SS not MP SS.

422903[/snapback]

You couldn't have said it better.

422914[/snapback]

So Kawamori's THS-2 Convoy is also a Masterpiece? Because he spots a kick ass accuracy to the cartoon over the Alt mode, great detail and it even beats the crap out of MP Prime in articulation (and it is just 4" high).

It even comes with a cartoon accurate trailer full of the gimmicks the original toy had and more. The MP Prime is yet to do so.

A MP is... a big and expensive Transformer toy; just ask non G1 accurate MP Ultra Magnus.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I dunno about that MP ultra magnus claim.

I've just been watching the TF animated movie: and in that it actually shows ultramagnus in his white color body while he is in alt mode next to kup.

But I agree with the point people are making about the BS about so-called claims of MP being "cartoon accuracy"-conscious: If the masterpiece transformers are soooo cartoon accurate, then why the hell weren't people pissed about ultra magnus missing his freakin armor? The froating head can't be blamed for that one..

In fact I would love SK to attempt a ultramagnus in THS complete with transforming armor since I am more likely to buy highly posable, small-scale TF with tons of realistic detail (regardless of whether some detail wasn't shown in the cartoon)

Cartoons are full of disapearing parts and stuff which is partly why I was never really that much a fan of them. (as opposed to the concept of the transformation in the toys which is what makes them cool to collect)

I just wish they remade the cartoon in 3d CG so people were forced to have to see the ugly kibble that has to be placed somewhere (rather than it conveniently disapearing)

Edited August 6, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Twoducks]

I dunno about that MP ultra magnus claim.

I've just been watching the TF animated movie: and in that it actually shows ultramagnus in his white color body while he is in alt mode next to kup.

But I agree with the point people are making about the BS about so-called claims of MP being "cartoon accuracy"-conscious: If the masterpiece transformers are soooo cartoon accurate, then why the hell weren't people pissed about ultra magnus missing his freakin armor? The froating head can't be blamed for that one..

In fact I would love SK to attempt a ultramagnus in THS complete with transforming armor since I am more likely to buy highly posable, small-scale TF with tons of realistic detail (regardless of whether some detail wasn't shown in the cartoon)

Cartoons are full of disapearing parts and stuff which is partly why I was never really that much a fan of them. (as opposed to the concept of the transformation in the toys which is what makes them cool to collect)

422937[/snapback]

Someone made an awesome scratch build transforming Ultra Magnus based on the THS Convoy here:

http://www.sgcollect.com/forum/index.php?s...ndpost&p=893422

Go back some pages and you'll see an almost step by step of the making.

I just wish they remade the cartoon in 3d CG so people were forced to have to see the ugly kibble that has to be placed somewhere (rather than it conveniently disapearing)

422937[/snapback]

Like those super chunky robots in one of the recent series. Hehe, CG anime magic and all and you still couldn't get rid of everything.

Edited August 6, 2006 by Twoducks

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

http://www.sgcollect.com/forum/index.php?s...ndpost&p=893422

Very nice..

Edited August 6, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker