Official Transformers Super Thread 3

[Myriad]

Shoji Kawamori turned it into a valk...........

[eugimon]

blah blah, the new version is far superior. the legs are of decent length now now and his feet don't have those ridiculous tail fins hanging off the back. And his under carriage is a lot smother now.

[eriku]

Poor Starscream wont be able to run or battle very well with all that crap hanging off his waist. If he took one blow that stuff would go flying and he'd never be able to transform back to a jet.

[Southpaw Samurai]

I don't think there's many ways that kibble can naturally transform onto his hips like that (if so, they did a major retooling), so I think we'll be in luck and everyone will be happy. Those who want a more accurate Starscream can keep it on his legs (hopefully they'll leave that as an option) and those who want their stylized version can detach and move the pieces up to the hips.

I'll live with the extra armor/jet shell on his forearms...especially if it makes the fighter mode look better.

To me, it'll all come down to the coloring. Things that look wrong can look better in color and things that you didn't notice can suddenly stand out when the paint apps are done.

I'm still willing to put down money on four or five of these: the original Seeker trio, plus a 'realistic' or low vis version and then one to keep in fighter mode if they decide to make any beyond Starscream himself (which should be a gimme given the profit in it). Heck, if they want to toy with wings, I'd even get the 'conehead trio'...even if the design doesn't allow for them to have the nosecones sitting on their heads like dunce caps.

[HoveringCheesecake]

I always hated Ramjet, Thrust, and Dirge. I will buy Skywarp and Thundercracker, though.

[JB0]

New Starscream has scrawnie girlie legs.

While they better match the high-heels, they just look wrong on him.

That's my only real objection.

[ComicKaze]

STUPID KAWAMORI!!!!! THIS IS STARSCREAM NOT THE YF-19 !!!!!!!!!! No waist wings!

Because Kawamori is such a fighter accuracy purist, he's added all this kibble (check out the extra chunks on SS's forearms) to make the fighter undercarriage smooth.

Edited June 22, 2006 by ComicKaze

[GobotFool]

STUPID KAWAMORI!!!!! THIS IS STARSCREAM NOT THE YF-19 !!!!!!!!!! No waist wings!

Because Kawamori is such a fighter accuracy purist, he's added all this kibble (check out the extra chunks on SS's forearms) to make the fighter undercarriage smooth.

410334[/snapback]

The extra bits there don't really bother me, I consider it a small price to pay for a better fighter. I do hope the bits on the shoulders flip down and that the guns will still be perfect transformation instead of one having to remove them and replace them on the arms.

I do agree though, Kawamori, make me a transformer of SS, not a a F-15 style valk.

[Twoducks]

I also believe the "so they can be moved to the waist" line could pretty well mean that you can chose were you place the kibble: legs or hips. I mean, it's pretty easy to make those parts removable, so why wouldn’t they? It would mean just another cool gimmick.

The leg design wouldn't suffer in any way, the kibble would even blend more with the leg since the new version is more rounded. Just look how well it looks in plane mode and now compare it to the old version: The kibble looks like its part of the leg as opposed to the older version where it looked like it was a different piece.

But even if they don't do it removable, kitbashing it doesn't look too hard. I mean you could just cut it from the hips, trim whatever connected it there and glue it to the legs

They might even do removable some of the extra bulk in the arms.

Hope someone translates the full text soon. But anyways, I like Starscream better this way.

Edited June 22, 2006 by Twoducks

[Knight26]

Holy Shreg on a stick, why has no one mentioned that that same scan with SS has a YF-19 variable, could Yamato finally be giving us another YF-19?

[GobotFool]

It's still an awsome looking toy. and actually, the hip kibble doesn't bother me nearly as much as the null rays not being perfect transformation. I'll admit if there is anyone thing I am a stickler about it is perfect transformation. I don't mind optional parts say like swapable hands, or covers being able to be added on to make it look a lil more show accurate, like with the 1/48. But when the core transformation mechanism is messed with well that does bum me out a little. Still. Overall I do still like MP SS, and I don't think he's ruined. They made his plane mode more awsome at the sacrifice of his bot mode. Kind of the reverse philosophy of the original MP prime.

[GobotFool]

Holy Shreg on a stick, why has no one mentioned that that same scan with SS has a YF-19 variable, could Yamato finally be giving us another YF-19?

410346[/snapback]

go look at the seven page long 2nd coming thread in the toys section my friend

[wolfx]

The fins on the hip makes it look like a Gundam! XD

Pretty cool but strays from the G1 likeness. I wonder if they'll go ahead with this design. Is it just me or do the landing gears look way wrong? The back landing gears seem to be too close to each other. Love the stand which can be used in robot mode as well though.

Edited June 23, 2006 by wolfx

[Majestic]

Has the term "kibble" always been around in reference to 'extra' parts on figures? If I had a nickel for every time the word "kibble" is mentioned in this thread....

I like the changes made to the waist/skirt armor region. The first proto seemed a little thick around the waist. Oh, and Kibble Kibble Kibble.

Edited June 23, 2006 by Majestic

[Radd]

Kibble means different things depending on who is using the word. Some people will tell you that kibble is any part that hangs off of the humanoid form of a robot. Others will tell you kibble is any piece of a Transformer that is obviously recognizable as a part of their alternate mode. Many others can't seem to decide between these two definitions, and liberally sprinkle the word throughout any conversation on Transformers they happen to engage in. Look at how some consider both the wings hanging off his waist, and how SS's arms become part of the fighter mode to be "kibble". If from these statements we can gain an accurate definition of "kibble", then one can only assume that "kibble" is a generic term meaning "any part on any Transformer" because everything from the original G1 toys, to the Alternators and Masterpiece Convoy are made up of nothing but "kibble".

Personally, I preferred the old prototype, with a more G1-looking robot mode, even if the fighter mode had to be compromised. However, this does not look bad, and the fighter mode is definitely much improved. I'm still looking forward to picking it up, along with Skywarp and Thundercracker.

[ComicKaze]

I am officially nolonger a fan of Shoji Kawamori. The guy should have more respect for the original work, not be slavish to his fighter accuracy fetish. This isn't time for being revisionist.

Here's the prelude to what we see now, Kawamori's "changes" scribbles.

http://www.fantofan.jp/news/mag/dengekihobby/jul2006-2.jpg

[eugimon]

HAHAHA.. so when convoy comes out, it's all blah blah, his cab mode isn't tru to life, not truck looks like that, his smoke staks aren't big enough, fuel tanks are too small too far back! Comprimise his bot mode for a real world truck!

And now we have an f-15 that actually looks like an F-15 and now the fanboys are at it again.. HOW DARE you compromise his bot mode for a more accurate vehicle mode.. whine whine whine.

And by the way, the very act of redesigning the original G1 toys is being revisionist.

[HoveringCheesecake]

I love MP Prime, but I am hating the crap hanging off of Starscream's waist. It just looks... bad.

[ComicKaze]

HAHAHA.. so when convoy comes out, it's all blah blah, his cab mode isn't tru to life, not truck looks like that, his smoke staks aren't big enough, fuel tanks are too small too far back! Comprimise his bot mode for a real world truck!

And now we have an f-15 that actually looks like an F-15 and now the fanboys are at it again.. HOW DARE you compromise his bot mode for a more accurate vehicle mode.. whine whine whine.

And by the way, the very act of redesigning the original G1 toys is being revisionist.

410386[/snapback]

The point is THE STUFF ON THE WAIST IS ABSOLUTELY UNNECCESSARY - even if the vehicle mode is better.

Edited June 23, 2006 by ComicKaze

[wolfx]

LOLOLOL! That Prime parody is hilarious. But in any case i'm getting it in either mode. I dun mind it too much.

[eugimon]

The point is THE STUFF ON THE WAIST IS ABSOLUTELY UNNECCESSARY - even if the vehicle mode is better.

410396[/snapback]

"absolutely unnecessary" would imply that it serves no purpose, and yet you follow up by admitting his vehicle mode is better... so obviously it is necessary. but whine some more, obviously better posability (longer feet, he's not balancing on his tail fins anymore) a more portioned body (now he has a waist and doesn't have stubby legs anymore) don't mean that much to you. Yes, lets all stay slavishly true to a toy that came out 20 years ago, even though there have a dozen different versions of him.

Would you feel better if he came with little blue gloves?

[JB0]

HAHAHA.. so when convoy comes out, it's all blah blah, his cab mode isn't tru to life, not truck looks like that, his smoke staks aren't big enough, fuel tanks are too small too far back! Comprimise his bot mode for a real world truck!

And now we have an f-15 that actually looks like an F-15 and now the fanboys are at it again.. HOW DARE you compromise his bot mode for a more accurate vehicle mode.. whine whine whine.

And by the way, the very act of redesigning the original G1 toys is being revisionist.

410386[/snapback]

The point is THE STUFF ON THE WAIST IS ABSOLUTELY UNNECCESSARY - even if the vehicle mode is better.

410396[/snapback]

Is it just me, or does it look like Prime is grabbing the wheels like he's about to throw them?

Anyways... Prime's statememt rings true in this case.

Tailfins dangling off the feet = broke.

Moving them makes for a much cleaner robot.

And I do admit I had none of the jets as a kid, so my nostalgia isn't getting in the way(which could be an issue, since the Masterpiece toys are all about nostalgia).

But I DO remember looking at the pictures in the foldout catalog and thinking the tailfins on the feet were dorky(only one I really wanted was Thrust, for unknown reasons).

And Masterpiece Prime was intended to be faithful to the animation, not the toy. Animation Starscream had no leg fins.

...

Of course, he had no hip fins either. For a TV-accurate Starscream, you'd have to take the fins off and set them aside.

Edited June 23, 2006 by JB0

[ghostryder]

Farkin' hilarious!

I think the problems is that skirty-waist thingies only work on robots that have a samurai-like quality (Gundam, YF-19). There's nothing samurai about any of the G1 figures.

Oh... I'm in the camp of kibble being 'bot bits hanging off the alt mode in a very conspicuous manner. The aerialbots and any jetfire/skyfire incarnation are good examples.

[ComicKaze]

The point is THE STUFF ON THE WAIST IS ABSOLUTELY UNNECCESSARY - even if the vehicle mode is better.

410396[/snapback]

"absolutely unnecessary" would imply that it serves no purpose, and yet you follow up by admitting his vehicle mode is better... so obviously it is necessary. but whine some more, obviously better posability (longer feet, he's not balancing on his tail fins anymore) a more portioned body (now he has a waist and doesn't have stubby legs anymore) don't mean that much to you. Yes, lets all stay slavishly true to a toy that came out 20 years ago, even though there have a dozen different versions of him.

I don't see any reason why the streamlined F-15 needs the kibble to be attached to the hips besides Kawamori flexing his creative liscense to simply put things where he prefers theme ala Valkyrie design. This has nothing to do with faith to the toy design but the iconic image of Starscream that is pretty much set in stone just like the VF-1 Valkyrie.

Most of us don't give a damn about the original toy and know that it's pretty chunky. The toy isn't the iconic image of Starscream the animation version is. When you think of Optimus Prime do you imagine the toy or his cartoon version?

Anyways... Prime's statememt rings true in this case.

Tailfins dangling off the feet = broke.

Moving them makes for a much cleaner robot.

And I do admit I had none of the jets as a kid, so my nostalgia isn't getting in the way(which could be an issue, since the Masterpiece toys are all about nostalgia).

But I DO remember looking at the pictures in the foldout catalog and thinking the tailfins on the feet were dorky(only one I really wanted was Thrust, for unknown reasons).

And Masterpiece Prime was intended to be faithful to the animation, not the toy. Animation Starscream had no leg fins.

How does tailfins attached to the feet constitute broken when this has been the design for nearly 30 years? Attaching junk to the hips doesn't make a cleaner robot - unless it's a Valkyrie...it's just bulky, clumsy, and in the way. Starscream was animated with tailfins on the legs in certain episodes. Another unneccessary change is that the lefs are now curved and top heavy since it follows the profile of the F-15 undercarriage.

Masterpiece Prime is also quite revisionist itself, neither accurate to the toy nor the cartoon...but at least it kept the general premise of the robot's shape.

How would you feel if Kawamori announced the VF-1 Valkyrie was nolonger going to look like that and that now, the legs would feminine and the wings along with the wouldn't fold back but would be attached to the hips along with the fastpack portions of the legs hanging from the waist?

Edited June 23, 2006 by ComicKaze

[HoveringCheesecake]

I too am angry that he found the need to "adapt" the design as he saw fit. (the stupid crap hanging from the hips)

I'm sure everyone already knows what the YF-19 looks like, but just in case you forgot there it is.

[JB0]

How does tailfins attached to the feet constitute broken when this has been the design for nearly 30 years?

Because most of the original toys were pretty crappy.

Your argument means that no articulation is also a good thing.

The vast majority of interpretations of the original Starscream design depict him without tailfins on the legs. And he benefits greatly from it.

Attaching junk to the hips doesn't make a cleaner robot - unless it's a Valkyrie...it's just bulky, clumsy, and in the way.

Same can be said for attaching it to the legs.

I agree there's too much attached to the hips, but it's better than having it on the legs.

Starscream was animated with tailfins on the legs in certain episodes.

But the official animation design was finless.

Are you really so desperate to make a point that you're going to use animation errors to support it?

Masterpiece Prime is also quite revisionist itself, neither accurate to the toy nor the cartoon...but at least it kept the general premise of the robot's shape.

As does Masterpiece Starscream. The stuff on the hips is the only thing that greatly defies the original design, and it's an improvement over the original toy without resorting to the set-aside parts that would likely be necessary for a design consistent with other interpretations.

How would you feel if Kawamori announced the VF-1 Valkyrie was nolonger going to look like that and that now, the legs would feminine and the wings along with the wouldn't fold back but would be attached to the hips along with the fastpack portions of the legs hanging from the waist?

Diffrence is that this is just one more in a long series of re-envisionings of Transformers. There were multiple incarnations of Starscream even during his original release(box art, cartoon, and toy were all diffrent designs). There is no singular "right" look for Starscream, and I prefer the clean-legged versions anyways.

The VF-1, by contrast, DOES have a singular "right" look, head excepted.

[ComicKaze]

Diffrence is that this is just one more in a long series of re-envisionings of Transformers. There were multiple incarnations of Starscream even during his original release(box art, cartoon, and toy were all diffrent designs). There is no singular "right" look for Starscream, and I prefer the clean-legged versions anyways.

The VF-1, by contrast, do have a singular "right" look, head excepted.

410459[/snapback]

Starscream's iconic look is defined by the animation, every comic book from G1, G2, Dreamwave, the newest ones, and all the Super Robot Life TV Magazines and Manga. Every PVC incarnation, over a dozen in addition to the Robot Masters Starscream and the Cartoon Version Reissue of the G1 toy are all aspiring to the cartoon design. I could care less about the original G1 toy. The iconic image of Starcream was derived from the toy and intended to be different from the toy in the first place.

What do you tink of when you first imagine Starscream in your head?

The VF-1 certainly does not have a singular "right" look by your logic as the toys, animation, etc. all varied greatly in their own right. Some by technical limitation or by artistic liscense or sloppy art.

Also, here's something new by The Wombat King at tfw2005:

Edited June 23, 2006 by ComicKaze

[Vermillion21]

This thread is way too long, so I haven't read through ... so apologies if this has been asked before:

Can someone comment on the Takara Japanese re-issues of the Generation 1 "classic" transformers?

They come in a white window box (similar to Toynami's MPC boxes). Are they any good? I mean like quality material-wise. And are the toys accessible, like Toynami/Yamato, or if I open the box, I won't be able to re-seal the toy, MIB?

Reason I ask is because I am debating whether to buy one or not.

Thanks in advance folks,

[ComicKaze]

This thread is way too long, so I haven't read through ... so apologies if this has been asked before:

Can someone comment on the Takara Japanese re-issues of the Generation 1 "classic" transformers?

They come in a white window box (similar to Toynami's MPC boxes).  Are they any good?  I mean like quality material-wise.  And are the toys accessible, like Toynami/Yamato, or if I open the box, I won't be able to re-seal the toy, MIB?

Reason I ask is because I am debating whether to buy one or not.

Thanks in advance folks,

410468[/snapback]

Yes to all counts. You might find American reissues to be cheaper but some of them have some modifications to the missiles for child safety issues.

[Vermillion21]

ComicKaze - Thanks mate, appreciate the feedback.

So just to confirm, if I were to open the box, I would be able to remove and play with the toy, then put it back, as if it were MIB? Like the Toynami MPC, right? Sorry to sound like a retard, but this is important. While I do want the toy, I don't just want it to sit in the box sealed.

Thanks again.

[Twoducks]

Have faith in common sense people. Making those parts removable is just plain freaking easy plus it gives them a new feature to rant about.

When we see pics of the kibble in the legs and completely detached everyone will be saying how useful and customisable the gimmick is.

[JB0]

Diffrence is that this is just one more in a long series of re-envisionings of Transformers. There were multiple incarnations of Starscream even during his original release(box art, cartoon, and toy were all diffrent designs). There is no singular "right" look for Starscream, and I prefer the clean-legged versions anyways.

The VF-1, by contrast, do have a singular "right" look, head excepted.

410459[/snapback]

Starscream's iconic look is defined by the animation, every comic book from G1, G2, Dreamwave, the newest ones, and all the Super Robot Life TV Magazines and Manga. Every PVC incarnation, over a dozen in addition to the Robot Masters Starscream and the Cartoon Version Reissue of the G1 toy are all aspiring to the cartoon design. I could care less about the original G1 toy. The iconic image of Starcream was derived from the toy and intended to be different from the toy in the first place.

Then why are you bent out of shape about the tail fins, when that iconic look is FINLESS?

I think I stated as much in the first place, and you threw ANIMATION ERRORS back at me to explain why it needed tail fins on the feet.

While hanging them off the hips is still not animation accurate, it at least looks less retarded than having them stick off the feet.

What do you tink of when you first imagine Starscream in your head?

An upper body. All that made Starscream was above the waist.

The VF-1 certainly does not have a singular "right" look by your logic as the toys, animation, etc. all varied greatly in their own right. Some by technical limitation or by artistic liscense or sloppy art.

Ya know, I considered pointing out exactly what I meant, but thought it would be understood.

I guess not.

Every rendition of the VF-1, animation errors excepted, is largely the same, save detail level.

Yes a Yamato 1/48 kicks all kinds of crap out of a 1/55 Bandai, but when you get down to it, they're the SAME THING. Sure the Bandai is a bit chunkier, but the overall styling is the same.

Aside from animation errors, there aren't any stray parts materializing, dematerializing, or moving with the whims of the current artists, except for the gunpod, which is either missing in fighter mode or hanging under the fighter along the centerline.

By comparison, every Gen1 Transformer that made it to animation had no fewer than 3 designs: toy, box art, and cartoon. The diffrences were often drastic enough between the toy and animation that the Skyfire/Jetfire substitution doesn't look excessively absurd.

If, as you say, only the official animation design counts... Starscream had no foot-fins.

[GobotFool]

The way I see it, the fins on the legs are more cannon, as this is how it was with the original toy, even if it wasn't that way in the animation. The fins on the legs are an established part of SS's look in one form or another. The fins on the hip is a complete and total revision of SS's design, either way you look at it, if your trying to be accurate to the show, or the original toy design, it just flat out is not there. I can accept the fins on the sides of the legs as say, a necissary reality that you can't just wish them away unless your willing to make parts detachable, I have a harder time accepting them as some sort of samuriesqe side armor as it really clashes with my mental image of SS. That said, it doesn't ruin the toy for me, I just find it a bizarre and unneeded revision. Everything else, what he did with the arms, the sleaker legs, is cool, and I'm almost certain those wedges at the top of his shoulder, that are there to make a sleaker jet mode will probably fold down.

Edited June 23, 2006 by GobotFool

[Fit For Natalie]

HAHAHA.. so when convoy comes out, it's all blah blah, his cab mode isn't tru to life, not truck looks like that, his smoke staks aren't big enough, fuel tanks are too small too far back! Comprimise his bot mode for a real world truck!

And now we have an f-15 that actually looks like an F-15 and now the fanboys are at it again.. HOW DARE you compromise his bot mode for a more accurate vehicle mode.. whine whine whine.

And by the way, the very act of redesigning the original G1 toys is being revisionist.

410386[/snapback]

There's a line between say, Hasbro and Takara's designers designing a new toy based heavily upon a G1 toy. Its an homage, they respect what came before.

Kawamori doesn't really respect the source material in this case if a Masterpiece G1 toy (a definative version of the original toy and character) can have such drastic major design changes just so it fits his personal preferences for realistic fighter craft.

Oh, if anybody is wondering, I'm hardly the most G1-fanatical person. I never really liked the original jets.

ComicKaze - Thanks mate, appreciate the feedback.

So just to confirm, if I were to open the box, I would be able to remove and play with the toy, then put it back, as if it were MIB?  Like the Toynami MPC, right?  Sorry to sound like a retard, but this is important.  While I do want the toy, I don't just want it to sit in the box sealed.

Thanks again.

410480[/snapback]

The flaps on the boxes are taped with a single stripe of tape, but the inner tray is just 2 pieces of un-taped plastic trays. So yeah.

[David Hingtgen]

Despite being pro-vehicle-mode in all things TF, I liked the original design better. Technically, it's not the fins I have issues with, it's the booms. (The booms are the part that the v.stabs sit on top of, and that the h.stabs attach to the side of---the booms run along side the engines, from just behind the wings) If you rip the fins off, you have 100% boom hanging off the hips.

I wonder what the Japanese reaction is? AFAIK G1 isn't the cultural icon there that it is here---it's not so much "sacrilege" to change SS there, he's not nearly as iconic/beloved. Wonder if Kawamori (or Takara) will change anything if they see an incredible backlash and preference for the old design.

Edited June 23, 2006 by David Hingtgen