I Like The Kites

[JsARCLIGHT]

I experimented breifly with drop shadows both behind the whole icon, behind the white parts, coming from the rim, all sorts of stuff... the shadows never turned out well because there is not enough space in these tiny tiny GIF files to enable the subtle falloff that a good shadow needs. The same problems are affecting my highlights... that white peen on the left top actually has a wonderful drawing gradient falloff in a nice star flake pattern along with a nice frenell effect crossing the droplet down into the lower right corner. ... but you'll never see any of it because it doesn't translate into the tiny GIF at all to my dismay. The "hot spot" that is the highlight can't really be darkened without the GIF convertor I'm using skewing it all dark and making it look like a smudge or a bruise on the logo rather than a highlight. Not to be a douche bag and sound all "tortured artist" for a second but it is almost burning my brain how all the detail vanishes when these things downconvert... but at the same time if that detail was not there when you downconvert them they just look so flat and lifeless. I guess I'm trying too hard to make these things "pop".

[Sundown]

JsARCLIGHT, in the end, I don't think you're going to find a set that pleases everyone perfecctly-- design by comittee doesn't work very well. You're going to have to be stubborn about what you're going for, and take feedback mainly as a sanity check and for the ideas that perfectly compiment your vision that you might have missed out on yourself.

I think it's great that you're going for a cohesive theme that's not an eyesore to look at. It'll be a huge, huge improvement once we get these online. I hate the current icons and I hate the defaults we had before-- could never really intuitively tell what the different icons were for.

Now for my two cents that totally disregards everything I said earlier-- I personally prefer one color scheme for all the no-new-posts icons, differentiated by the graphics themselves, and maybe by intensity of color acheived by a "glow" effect in photoshop, and then have new posts be highlighted by a different but related, brighter, "hotter" glowing color. Ie:

Red kites for normal threads with no new posts.

Red skulls or red glowing kites for hot topics with no new posts.

Red something else for polls with no new posts.

Yellow kites for normal threads with new posts.

Yellow glowing kits for hot topics with new posts.

Yellow something else for polls.

The reason I like this scheme is that we end up with two related colors on the page rather than three somewhat complementary and slightly contrasting colors. The thing that stands out the most at first sight is which threads have new posts. That's probably the first thing he wants to know, rather than how popular a topic is. The current scheme uses three different colors, one for each type of thread, and it's giving me a bit of a headache.

[David Hingtgen]

I'll add in a bit to agree with the above.

IMHO there's too many divisions/categories. All you really need is New Posts, and No New Posts. Everything else just leads to a dozen colors that needs a key. All you need is bold for new posts, and transparent/pastel for no new posts. All anyone ever really cares about is to tell with the briefest of glances, if there's new posts in a thread.

I mean, how many of us go to a forum where 90% of the topics are "hot"? It's kinda pointless----and nobody will ever agree on what the cutoff point is for hot vs not. Same thing for "thread you've posted in". It just doubles the number of icons/colors. You should know what you've posted in yourself, and anything already on page 8 of replies is obviously hot. All those divisions just leads to a left column with 25 different icon types.

I still liked it best when we just had 2 kites---bold and translucent, for new posts, and not. Polls? They're already differentiated, no need for a custom skull for them IMHO.

At most, 3 versions of the Kite. Bold, for new topics. Translucent/pastel for no new topics. And flashing/glowing bold for hot topic with new posts. That's generally what I see at most boards that I like. Instead of a whole new icon for hot, just either add little animated flames like some, or make the red glow redder, etc.

[JsARCLIGHT]

I don't understand enough about how the board mechanics work to know what we can and can't remove from use. Can someone with experience on this board chime in? Can we actually remove the "Hot Topic" function or is it somehow coded into the board? I have no practical experience in the technical side of things. I can make a kite logo any color we want, I just need to know how many we need and what colors we need them in as well as any other generic housekeeping icons that may be needed to match theme.

Edit: when I initially looked around the board, it seemed the board had fourteen different icons in place for the following things: New Topic, New Topic with no new posts, New Topic that the user has posted in, New Topic with no new posts that the user has posted in, Hot Topic, Hot Topic with no new posts, Hot Topic that the user has posted in, Hot Topic with no new posts that the user has posted in, Poll Topic, Poll Topic with no new posts, Poll Topic that the user has posted in, Poll Topic with no new posts that the user has posted in, Locked Topic and Moved Topic. All that is also leaving out the "Go To Last New Post" button (number 15, AKA the Minmay Wraith), the "Section with New Topics" icon and the "Section with No New Topics" icon on the first page of the message board. Seventeen icons in all that would need to be made to replace our current system with an updated package that matches it icon for icon.

Now I could assume that the person doing the replacing could just use the same four icon set for all three main topic icons (new, hot and poll) which brings us down to nine icons needed grand total... if we change out everything.

Edited April 4, 2006 by JsARCLIGHT

[Sundown]

I think it's fine to have separate icons for Hot Topic and Poll, with minor differences between them and Normal Topic. It'd be nice for flavor and make extended topics and polls distinguishable. However, the differences between these, whether they be increased intensity of color or brightness, or an actual minor change to the kite or icon graphics, should still be less noticable than the difference between new and old posts.

So my philosophy is-- most noticeable difference between categories the user cares about first and most (usually best achieved by color), with less immediately noticeable differences for category differences the user might be interested in but is less concerned about.

[electric indigo]

I'm very happy with the direction things are taking lately, and I felt inspired to contribute another basic "kite button" design from which the other icons could be derived.

Edited April 4, 2006 by electric indigo

[kensei]

Yup agreed. Can we have a trial week with those icons? Let's see how it goes.

[Fortress_Maximus]

I like the newer ones you created J, IMO quite classy and uniform in size. Good work!

[do not disturb]

i like all the new icons except for minmay ghost....i didn't even know what it was until i read this thread. otherwise, i'm loving all the stuff thats getting done around here lately.

and finally, the non-forum sections are getting some love, the forums aren't everything you know.

thanks to all involved!

[buddhafabio]

I love the kites. I am not to keyed up about the skull squadron logos. and i dont even know what the Minmay things represent. but hey it is a FREE hang out so i cannot complain too much

[Noyhauser]

Wow, that looks so much better now... the arrows and the new locked/move symbols looks awesome.

Although I think JS's alternate skulls (the more rounded polished kind) would go better with the new locked and move symbols. But thats just my opinion.

[JsARCLIGHT]

I noticed the replacement has begun. When I get home tonight I'll make the other two color sets (blue and green) for the four kite icons and I'll make the matching lock and move icons and post them all in here.

[Roy Focker]

Okay I place more up just to give us a better idea of how things could like. I also used the standard red kite for to replace the ones on the main forums page. It can be replaced again. I'm liking the kites however I don't think the twenty different colors looks good. Different shades of red or kites of altered designs look better than fruit loops.

The use of the markings on a Valk for the other minor macros work as well. Still like to use the black skull and Minmay wraith in some fashion.

Besides of what can be changed here what Left:

POLL (new & old).

B_HOT_DOT (Not sure what it stand for currently is the green skull).

B_NEW_DOT (Currently the light blue file folder).

B_POLL_DOT (Currently the purple file folder).

Next day I have to spend more changing them is Sat. I don't expect the finalized version by then but we should have a clear vision of what that will be.

[azrael]

Much better.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Besides of what can be changed here what Left:

POLL (new & old).

B_HOT_DOT (Not sure what it stand for currently is the green skull).

B_NEW_DOT (Currently the light blue file folder).

B_POLL_DOT (Currently the purple file folder).

388420[/snapback]

I think the B_HOT_DOT might be the "hot topic with new posts in which the user has replied" icon. The B-NEW-DOT seems to be the same as that except for being the new topic colored icon while the B_POLL_DOT is the same but with the poll topic scheme.

[Dante74]

Looks way better then all the skulls

I especially like the arrows.

[David Hingtgen]

Hot Topic and not a Hot Topic seem backwards with the latest update---the "not a hot topic" has the extra white segments around the rim. And I think "hot topic with new replies that you've posted in" is getting a green skull.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Rather than going mexican stoplight candy on the other two sets why don't I make the alternate sets the "Reverse Kite" as seen on the Destroids (the red kite on the white field) and the "Grey Kite" as seen on the Low Vis (White kite on a dark grey field)? That would keep it in "theme" as all those kites appear somewhere in Macross lore. I could then make a new set of two icons for the main forum page (new and old), perhaps we use the black and grey skull icons or the minmay wraith there? Lastly the updated lock and move that are in the same shine theme as the new icon set.

Looks like I've got my work cut out for me tonight.

[promethuem5]

I like the new look alot. I'm just trying to figure out what the remaining green skulls are for....

[JsARCLIGHT]

The remaining green skulls are the Hot Topic with new posts that the user has posted in icons. As are the remaining Poll Topic posts and the older blue folder icons. As Roy has stated, this is all still in the "seeing what looks best or works best" stages and the board's icon theme will not be cohesive for a few more days at best.

[David Hingtgen]

Just had a thought from your previous post:

The VF-11's kite. Similar to low-vis, but is blue/grey. That's canon and well-known to anyone who's had a Yamato VF-11. Use that.

[JsARCLIGHT]

It looks like a reverse of the low viz kite to me... I'll make both.

[Amped]

Now we're cookin'!

Great job guys!

[JB0]

The new icons are sexy.

[Sundown]

Rather than going mexican stoplight candy on the other two sets why don't I make the alternate sets the "Reverse Kite" as seen on the Destroids (the red kite on the white field) and the "Grey Kite" as seen on the Low Vis (White kite on a dark grey field)? That would keep it in "theme" as all those kites appear somewhere in Macross lore. I could then make a new set of two icons for the main forum page (new and old), perhaps we use the black and grey skull icons or the minmay wraith there? Lastly the updated lock and move that are in the same shine theme as the new icon set.

Looks like I've got my work cut out for me tonight.

388463[/snapback]

Using the Destroid kites for something, say the hot topic, (or normal topic and the old kite for hot topic) would be brilliant.

I'm really not a fan of a whole lot of colors but I suppose slightly different colored kite for polls and stickies only wouldn't kill me.

Still like to use the black skull and Minmay wraith in some fashion.

No freaking Minmay Wraith and the old black skull is rough and hard on the eyes. >_< Unless they're both tweaked, neither fit within the scheme Js has got going here, and having a cluttered freaky little Minmay for the sake of having a cluttered freaky little Minmay doesn't do much for usability. =P

If anything, a little Minmay doll for stickies or something might be nice, but it shouldn't be something that's all over the place.

Edited April 6, 2006 by Sundown

[JsARCLIGHT]

The white field icons are not looking too good... they are quite pale and lifeless. I'll post some examples soon. The only way to make them "pop" is by going grey and then they just look so drab.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Still experimenting... in the meantime here are the grey brothers:

MOVED TOPIC

LOCKED TOPIC

[JsARCLIGHT]

OK, They greyish and whiteish fielded kite icons are sort of not working... they just lack enough field color to really punch out of just being a lifeless grey blob. Here are the two examples:

VF-11 Kite Colors

Destroid Kite Colors

[Hurin]

OK, They greyish and whiteish fielded kite icons are sort of not working... they just lack enough field color to really punch out of just being a lifeless grey blob. Here are the two examples:

VF-11 Kite Colors

Destroid Kite Colors

388551[/snapback]

I think you're being too hard on them. They're actually quite nice. And I'm quite picky about this sort of stuff.

Actually, I've always been of the opinion that just replacing the icons that had "IPB" actually written on them was enough. I found in my own experimenting with our boards that replacing the (actually rather clean and intuitive) "inner folder" icons rarely turned out the way I intended and only created confusion.

So, even being a guy that doesn't necessarily think that those icons should be changed (from the original board defaults), I think those are good! So that's saying something!

Maybe you've been staring at these so long that you need to take a few hours and return to them after a break. I know that when I'm trying to do something aesthetic, I quickly lose objectivity and my ability to see it through the eyes of someone who didn't create the darn thing(s)!

The ones currently up on the main index page are very good too, by the way.

Best,

H

[JsARCLIGHT]

Going on my original color intent, here is the kite icon set in MacrossWorld Blue hues. These hues exactly match the message board's scheme and might look good as the "new topic" icon set.

NEW TOPIC

NEW TOPIC (No New Posts)

NEW TOPIC That User Has Posted In

NEW TOPIC That User Has Posted In (With No New Posts)

[JsARCLIGHT]

This one is a factory floor mutant that I LOVE... I accidentally saved one out with the red kite background but with the BLUE kite's gloss layer, creating what I affectionately call "gasoline kite".

COOKIN' WITH GAS

(And yes, I have stared at colors for so long that I wish, like a dog, I could dream in black & white...)

[kensei]

Looking good!

[Sundown]

OK, They greyish and whiteish fielded kite icons are sort of not working... they just lack enough field color to really punch out of just being a lifeless grey blob. Here are the two examples:

VF-11 Kite Colors

Destroid Kite Colors

388551[/snapback]

Is the Destroid Kite for posts with New messages or is it the washed out one for old messages? I don't think it's the lack of field color that makes it look lifeless... it may be because the field is a dull off-white-grey instead of white and the kite itself is sort of this pink-ish faded red, when it might be better served with a real bright-medium-slightly-dark-red. Red on white might still work well if there's more contrast, and maybe if that thin white line in the kite showed up better.

Edited April 7, 2006 by Sundown

[JsARCLIGHT]

The problem is the light field color. With the light field colors you all but lose the glossy highlights of the icon style and it becomes a muddy, flat looking icon instead, which would clash with the current glossy theme going on. To add to that the "dimmed" versions of any icons with a white or light colored field are far too similair to the regular versions and don't have enough push to differ themselves.

I've been operating under the ROE that the icons for new posts in a thread should be bright, instantly noticeable and attention grabbing while not being so BAM bright and annoying. At the same time their "mirror image" icons that are shown when the topic has no new posts need to be muted, desaturated and dim versions of themselves but they maintain the same general color and style so you know what kind of thread it is and know it has no new posts at the same time. Switching color schemes for the same topic creates confusion like we have now when it goes from one color to another to another (red kite becomes a green skull becomes something else etc. etc.) Currently the board icons are somewhat of a jumble because old icons are still mixed in with new icons which are mixed in with this set of mine... creating thematic chaos. If anything, this situation has solidified in my mind the argument that the three main topic types, new, hot and poll should all be single color coordinated and their four individual support icons should be colored and themed the same to reduce confusion.

It all comes down to what looks good alongside the other icons in a cohesive package that is both color friendly to not only each other but the site. I'm just not feeling the "negative field" icons as primary icons... and they lack the thematic match to be used as supporting icons in my mind.

Then again I'm only one designer with one school of thought and one approach. I think we need a few other people fleshing out whole icon themed sets. Diversity in designers as well as design is what we need. If this was my office I'd pull no more than four people to work this and see what they came up with the next day... I'd be guaranteed to get four totally different things. From that we can meld ideas into what could be a choesive package.

[Sundown]

Then again I'm only one designer with one school of thought and one approach. I think we need a few other people fleshing out whole icon themed sets. Diversity in designers as well as design is what we need. If this was my office I'd pull no more than four people to work this and see what they came up with the next day... I'd be guaranteed to get four totally different things. From that we can meld ideas into what could be a choesive package.

388581[/snapback]

I hear ya... and then there's also the danger of design by comittee, where together everyone comes up with something no one hates, but no one really likes. =) I guess that's why you have a lead, who has a vision or can drive it, and can be the trump in any decisions that need to be made.

I hadn't thought about the white field being hard to highlight, but I see what you're saying now. I think there are ways to make it look glassy and still white, but it would have to take a different approach and use a different technique than what you've already established in this theme. The blue set's looking pretty too.