Gundam Show Thread - MSG thru Witch from Mercury

[Keith]

right....If they have changed their shipping methods last time i tried they dont ship to canada. Id rather download it

but if i have to i will go the ebay root

thanks tho

Oh, I'm sorry, corrected link.

http://www.amazon.ca

[VFTF1]

So...I just watched Char's Counter Attack.

In reading my thoughts and impressions - please keep in mind that I'm a Gundam newbie. All I've seen is about 16 episodes of the original Mobile Suit Gundam (first 16), some of Gundam SEED (movie), one of those CGI Gundam movies about a Zaku pilot...in short - not much... anyways...here's my take:

Ok...well... hm.

First, I have to say that in certain respects, I kind of prefered the original Mobile Suit Gundam insofar as (at least 16 episodes in), there was no mention of "New Types" and instead we just basically had a kind of inter-planetary World War II story with giant robots. Even when they fired their guns, you could hear the sound of machine guns rather than lasers.

I have nothing on principle against super robots or characters with super powers. But to me, the only real virtue of Gundam - the only thing that made it interesting - was that the robots went "clunk clunk" and there was this sense of realism to it. Another way to put this is.... All of the characters would have been boring if the machines they were surrounded with were any more superior or capable of super feats of strength. As such, what was excellent about the show was that the driving focus of the plot was the sense of LIMITS. There was a war, so you had rationing, which meant people didn't have enough to eat. At one point, White Base had to detour to get salt because without salt in their diets, everybody would eventually die. The Gundams were not easy to use in combat, and while they sure could DO a lot, there was a sense that you really needed to be a great pilot (not have a T-shaped bar in your pocket) to pilot them...

Now... with Char's Counterattack...we suddenly get these New Types. Ok - probably not "suddenly" - but to me (Gundam newbie) - it's sudden.

I don't know if I like it that much. Ok - in fact- I don't like it. I don't like it because the charactes and situations in Gundam are - frankly - to me...not interesting enough to merit my attention. Yes, true, sure - I do like Char and Bright. And I think Nania (Char's girlfriend - the OLDER one) is AWESOME. But these are exceptions to the rule. Amuro has always been an utterly boring character to me. He's just soooo card-board cut out. He was boring as a character in the original Gundam as well - but again - Tomino did a really good job of making the situations that Amura was stuck in interesting. I guess it's kind of like with Hikaru - as a character in his own right - he's kind of bland - but given the story of SDF Macross, he serves his purpose because we are interested in what's going on around him. Although... I guess not having finished MSG I can't judge Amuro too harshly. I mean, last I left him he ran away with Gundam - so maybe that was the beginning of something interesting...

But just on principle, I'm hard pressed to like the idea of Newtypes because they kind of relegate the only interesting thing in Gundam - the grit and realism and the DIFFICULTY of piloting these robots...to the side.

Yes, I "understand" the technology - the idea behind it. But you know...Macross does a better job on this front. The YF-21's brainwave apparatus is so well atuned to the human mind that it even manages to pick up things like fear, jealousy, resentment... and this results in technology which is faulty and unstable, and the eventual option to go with un-manned ghosts.

But in Gundam, it seems that none of the anxieties of the New Type kids ever make it hard for them to pilot their mobile suits... I dunno...

Besides - it's suggested in the movie that Amuro, like other Newtypes (like Qu...Que...I forgot her name even though I just watched this...um...the Lolicon) ... It's suggested that Amuro, like the Lolicon, also just plop managed to pilot a Gundam his very first time...suggesting he has some special Newtype skills...

But...

In MSG, I just got the feeling Amuro had his Dad's smarts and interests. It's obvious from the first scene we see him in. And while he's in the Gundam, he's flipping through the manual. It's only thanks to the better armor on Gundam that he manages not to get blown up while trying to figure out how it works.

Now...the story as such was fun. And I did ...strangely...get some memories of...Turn-A-Gundam...which I also saw like one or two episodes of.... but that's largely due to Tomino continually using antiquated colonial architecture whenever we see scenes of Earth. It looks like something out of a Latin American soap opera...which isn't a criticism...I actually quite like those scenes and that aesthetic in Gundam.

Um... hm... what else is there to say?

The mecha are cool. The general plot is good. But it falls apart on the specifics.

Oh - and the politics. I just don't understand the Neo Zeon forces being authentically so homogenous (although I guess they aren't, since in the end, even Douga pilots are trying to save the Earth)... But I think the attempt at showing how there is "true" popular support for Char falls flat because it is too full of pathos.

That is a major failing.

Mmm...what else?

I dunno. I guess it's just very hard for me to get into Gundam. I keep trying to find an angle which will make me say "wow! I love this!" but...it just keeps falling short. I guess I have to just go back to finishing the original MSG. And I've heard good stuff about Zeta too.

But it's hard to maintain my enthusiasm honestly...because the show just keeps falling flat on too many levels, and I'm not that into mecha porn for ONLY that to sustain me.

I guess I'm one of those people who are just bowled over by Bandai's models. If the Gundams weren't model kits, but just robot action figures, I'd probably not want anything to do with them... the show would not be enough to keep me interested. I even tried watching Gundam OO, and again, found some themes I enjoyed, others I didn't... but 5 episodes in..I just stopped...

Perhaps the reason I can't get into Gundam is the lack of sexy icons? I mean - yes, there are a couple of lolicons and that one woman was great (shades of Misa Hayese in her) -- er...I mean that woman who was close to Charr... but there's no one like Yoko or Minmey or Sheryl in the show... the women are either cynical and withdrawn or childish... These traights aren't necessarily bad but.. they just don't really work in the long run...

Although..again... I did like Mirai in the original MSG, and that blond chick (Shyla?) was ok too...

I dunno. I can't say I "don't" like it. I do. It's just...I dunno... maybe if there was more story, more plot, more character interaction - and less mecha battles...

Beats me.

I'm confused. Will I ever actually like Gundam at the same level as other anime I've enjoyed?

Pete

Edited September 13, 2009 by VFTF1

[yellowlightman]

Perhaps the reason I can't get into Gundam is the lack of sexy icons? I mean - yes, there are a couple of lolicons and that one woman was great (shades of Misa Hayese in her) -- er...I mean that woman who was close to Charr... but there's no one like Yoko or Minmey or Sheryl in the show... the women are either cynical and withdrawn or childish... These traights aren't necessarily bad but.. they just don't really work in the long run...

You're probably better off just watching porn, then.

[Keith]

U.C. Gundam is about Newtypes. Or more accurately, Tomino's U.C. Gundam is about Newtypes, and the struggle old types have with fighting evolution into Newtypes. And of course Char's nasty habbit of backstabbing everyone in the universe because he holds grudges like no ones business.

[Gui]

Tomino's U.C. Gundam is indeed about newtypes, among other things, although this concept appears only lately in the show even if it is evoked here and there in the first half: actually, it is one of the key elements of the story and the whole U.C. timeline, but it's in Z that it becomes truely preponderant

In other words, it wasn't a good idea to jump to CCA before having finished First and without having seen Z: you can thank Bandai for having released CCA before Z outside Japan, this made Gundam appeared as screwed up for a lot of newcomers to the franchise...

[VFTF1]

Well, I'm now watching the remaining episodes of MSG the original series and dag. It looks like I stopped right before an episode where the first inclings of Newtype vs. Oldtype appear - namely when Amura has his psychological problems and runs away - Bright starts to "doubt" his leadership, the whole crew of the Trojan Horse starts to quarrel with one another - and there is a clear psychic breakdown taking place... almost as if Amuro's mental condition influenced everyone else.

Still - it's pretty subtle - which I like, and which contrasts heavily with what I've seen of later Gundam where it's just like "Hi, I'm John." "Oh - Hig John - you're a newtype right? So just get into this giant robot and let her rip!"

I don't mind watching things in the wrong order... it's not that bad... and Haruhi Suzumiya has gotten me accustomed to everything being out of sinc anyways

As for porn - porn is no where near as fun as anime.

I just can't seem to get into the characters in Gundam that much...although, I am certainly most warm to the ones is MSG... maybe I just shouldn't watch OVAs? I seem to be the kind of guy who needs a series long epic to really get the feel for characters rather than a two hour movie...

Pete

[VFTF1]

Forgive the double post but I'm basically doing little more today than catching up on the remainder of Mobile Suite Gundam...

Finally found a character I could like, and discovered there'd been one I liked a lot all along - only needed some time to develop. The latter is Kai - who started out as an irrelevent B character who was there for the token "I'm scared/see me be a coward/hear me make whitty cynical remarks" character but has developed into someone I can really identify with.

Amuro was right when he called the General's threat to imprison people who didn't want to be conscripted "martial law." The problem is, every time Amuro notices that the Federation is corrupt or notices that the Zeon are also human... he doesn't do anything - doesn't act on it. He tried once- running away with Gundam - but was ropped back into the fight.

Kai at least had the gutts to leave - to basically say "yeah, whatever - I own myself and I don't want to fight this war anymore." And he didn't need to take mobile armor with him...

And I liked his return. It was basically like "what a bunch of loosers - so lost without me" He's funny, he's witty, he's got a good heart and his fear makes him very human. Ryu was noble, as is bright - but part of the problem in the Gundam universe that is destroying the world is the fanatical devotion to military duty and the basic destruction of non-military society and non-military roles in life.

Anyways...

I also think Kai has great taste in women. I now officially forgive him for thinking Matilda was hot. I have written before about how I am totally unattracted to Matilda and therefore found little empathy with the legions of men, Amuro amongst them, who went gaga over her. Kai included...

But Miharu - she is something else. That's exactly the type of girl I love because she has a weak backbone underneath a tough exterior. Or rather - her toughness is a sign of her weakness; if that makes sense. She does these daring and risky things because she lives in fear that her siblings will starve - so she does "what she must" to feed them - but then realizes all she's doing is starving other kids and putting them in harms way.

I also admire Kai for falling for this girl - because I think Kai saw his own weakness in her - and this is something that the two of them shared... this ability to undestand and not judge and jump to conclusions and call eachother out as cowards.

Of course, leave it to Tomino to kill the best girl in the whole series...

very sad

Pete

[Keith]

Once you get later in the series, you'll see that Newtypes were "always there."

[VFTF1]

Yeah, there is more and more an inclining of them... Amuro not getting knocked out by that one big Mobile Armor's acceleration... Seyla "sensing" Char piloting the Zanzibar... etc etc...

But again - I guess I like how it is subdued.

I would like to watch Zeta next, but I seem to be having trouble finding it.

Thankfully, Turn-A-Gundam is readily available, and I'm very interesting in seeing that.

But for now, still about 10 episodes left to complete MSG.

Overall, I like this series. Heck - I made it this far. That didn't happen with Gundam OO, where I just couldn't bring myself to go past episode 5. The only reason I stalled on MSG was because of bad luck. After 16 episodes, my computer died. I lost all my anime, including the 16 episodes of MSG I had.

And since MSG wasn't on the top of my list, I first had to regain NGE, TTGL, Macross SDFM, and DYRL....which technically shouldn't have taken me this long... but I'm like an old man. I do everything really slowly. Whenever I get into a rush - bad things happen. Accidents, explosions, I bump into things (I'm always not fitting into doorways - always bump my shoulder or something...)... err...

Anyways - eventually I got around to - um - now - and am finishing up the series. Oh...Haruhi Suzumiya kind of consumed me for a while there too... I have to say it was such a refreshing break from Super Robot/Real Robot/Any Robot anime...

But I do like Gundam the series. Char's Counter Attack has too many shades of SEED in it. I just could not STAND SEED. Icky poo. The animation improved - sure - but the plot was just far too much of an "updated" version of MSG, with nothing new in it. And the mecha were way over the top... I prefer the clunky old school designs in MSG.

Speaking of which...

I seriously laugh at the G-Fighter. The whole concept is ridiculous. It seems that the only purpose of the G-fighter is to build tension and make it look like Zeon might win when - oh - look - G-Fighter can release Gundam!

I mean - what good is this "upgrade" if all it basically does is prolong the suffering of the Federation troops until finally they have to release Gundam from the G-Fighter?

Yeah - technically the G-fighter operating on its' own can act as air support for Gundam - whoopy. But it could do that without having to enclose Gundam and encase him too. You don't see Guntank or Guncannon enclosing Gundam and releasing him when the going gets tough - they act as a support mecha and function autonomosly just fine...

So... what's with the G-Armor? I mean - the thing itself is a nifty weapon - yes... but in terms of it carrying Gundam around and effectively keeping Gundam out-of-commision AND then having to execute A and B module combinations mid-air and mid-combat... it seems that it's more dangerous than just launching Gundam from White Base without having it go out encased in G-Fighter....?

Finally - that big Mobile Armor that Amuro destroys during the fight with the Zanzabar... that kind of reminded me of the Armor QUess gets killed flying in Char's Counter Attack...

I bring this up only to wonder aloud whether subsequent Gundam series/OVAs are not too repetiious... I know, I know...there's plenty of homages in Macross Frontier too ... and in general it's kind of what series like these do... But Macross Frontier also manages to introduce fresh unique characters and concepts...whereas Gundam seems to like repeating itself a bit much...

Of course - I do realize I am talking out of my ass here since I haven't seen enough Gundam to make judgements - so please just treat these as the passing thoughts of a Gundam newbie getting into the franchise.

And finally...or next... hmm...what did I want to say?...slipped my mind...mmm... oh...yeah - I also got inclings of the Titans here... but is that Gundam Zeta or ZZ Gundam when the Titans story is told?

In either case - it seems that MSG and then the story of the Titans will be interesting and I expect they will be novel.... But other than that...well... I dunno... Why SEED hurt so much?

Pete

[yellowlightman]

This probably why you should actually put some effort into actually watching a series before sharing your opinions on it.

[Keith]

The G-Armor, G-Sky, etc, were all Bandai/Sunrise "improvements" on Tomino's story. i.e. They wanted nifty toys to sell. Tomno thankfully cut them all out when he did the movie re-edit.

[VFTF1]

This probably why you should actually put some effort into actually watching a series before sharing your opinions on it.

That's no fun

But seriously... I do realize that I often run my mouth off without knowing all the facts - but when I do it, I try to underline that my opinions are based on incomplete information and should just be treated as impressions. Like if you meet a girl for the first time and somebody asks "what do you think of her?" - what can you say? "Yeah she seems nice" - based on the two minute encounter you had... but you really don't know more...yet already you start developing an opinion or an impression... I try not to be rigorous when I present these - it's not like I'm making dogmatic arguments about Gundam which I think are absolutely true and would defend to the death or something Just passing reflections...

And here's a few more - since I'm now reaching the end of the series:

1) Well - I have to admit that this whole Newtype thing really surprised me. Took me totally by surprise. On one level, I kind of am uncomfortable with it, because I really liked this gritty idea of the mobile suits being sort of equivalent to tanks and fighter planes, only they're robots with arms and legs... and it's just a regular war setting...intergalactic war... but I guess every robot anime has to set itself apart with some "angle" - and newtypes are the angle here. OK. fair enough...

2) I'm confused by Mirai. I got the impression she rebuffed Cameron because she was in love with Bright. But then she makes out with Steggler Chewie? I guess I kind of should take Steggler's explanation at face value - Mirai just had feelings for him and women get that way and hey - presto - it happened. As for Bright's feelings for Mirai...where'd that come from? I never got the impression he was that into her and all of a sudden it's like "hey - I want to be with you - over and out." But...ok... so be it.

3) I think the Newtype plot theme was kind of just thrust on the story out of no where - it's almost as though Tomino were like "well - I am now nearing the conclusion of the series - so in this act, I'll just introduce the Newtypes out of the blue and everyone will be surprised." I'm not necessarily saying it was badly done - but it WAS surprising - like...I saw no indication of this coming beyond that one episode where everyone on White Base has psychic reprecussions stemming from Amuro's lousy mood/going AWOL....

4) Lala... um... I didn't catch this but...just what was Amuro doing at that house? Did he run there because he wanted shelter from the rain and stumble on Lala? As for Lala herself... I'm not sure what to make of her. I kind of get the feeling she's a plot devise... but then again...I guess she's just a young girl enamored with Char.... I'm curious to see how she develops. I of course know her fate since I've seen Char's Counter Attack and they have that flashback scene but... I'm still not sure as to her significance as such.

5) My favorite part? The way in which it is explained that Char's father points at Zabi to indicate "he is the murderer" and Zabi takes advantage of this to proclaim that he'd been pointed to and named successor. I love stuff like that. And suddenly Char's backstory becomes all the more interesting and I finally understand why he practically served up that one young Zabi kid as a token sacrifice to the White Base early on in the series. 'Cause back then I was like...huh?...why did you basically lead him to his doom?

6) Sayla .... finally getting some development. Speaking of development - why is it that the second half of the series features more and more nude/shower/bath scenes? But...um...getting back to Sayla - well.. hm... hm. I wonder how her conflict with Char will end up going? Wonder what the climax of that will be?

Overall....I see Tomino seems to have a soft spot for mystical sparkly rainbows appearing towards the end of his series - kind of epy...um...how do you spell it...epyphonic moments? I was reminded a bit of Ideon as I made my way into the final episode arc of Gundam... we'll see how this ends.

Oh - and Mc'quev... and his Gyn. A very interesting and funny mobile suite, to be sure. But I don't understand why all these Zeon officers and big whigs get so bent out of shape trying to upstage Char.

Char was unable to defeat Gundam over and over. His one and only achievement was surviving. So...why are the Zeon big whigs so jealous of him? After all - the biggest part of his reputation isn't how many ships or enemies he's shot down - but the fact that he's alive to have a reputation rather than a dead hero.

Char is pretty smart in how he is able to project this image of a truly superior pilot when in fact his superiority -at least from what we see in Gundam - rests in him knowing when to run, and when not to fight...

As for the "Bandai wanted toys" explanation - I kind of figured it was that. After all - why the heck would they keep using the same pointless strategy over and over? Let's go out in G-Fighter! Let's separate and release Gundam and recombine the G-Fighter! Yeah...let's take 20 seconds to turn this into a toy commercial

But that's ok It's just a staple of the genre

Pete

Edited September 15, 2009 by VFTF1

[VFTF1]

Double Post again - with more oblivious, ignorant yammering about Mobile Suit Gundam from me - again...

I have now watched every single episode in the original series except... the last episode :-) And no - I didn't watch the "trailer" for the last episode either...I never watch those.

So... keeping in mind I don't know anything about how this series ultimately ends, I'll share some thoughts with you:

1) Mobile Suit Gundam has the BEST theme song of any Japanese anime

But I need to qualify what I mean by "best" here. By "best" theme song, I mean one that is EASY for non-Japanese speakers to sing along to. Most theme songs are kareoke subbed, which is great, but they are also really really difficult. How many times have I tried and completely failed to sing along to Haurhi Suzumiya or Neon Genesis Evangelion? How many times have I utterly failed to sing along to May'n and Megumi. The phonics are just mind numbingly insanely different from what my mouth is used to. Not so with Mobile Suit Gundam. This theme song is slow, sung in a deep voice not requiring too much musical capacity as is. It's a fun melody to sing along with. It's really neato. I of course find it amusing that the theme song can roughly be translated to "Kill,Gundam! Kill all your enemies! Blow them to pieces! Scatter their blood everywhere! Kill! Kill! Kill Gundam! Get really angry and let your hatred flow and kill kill kill Gundam!" But - other than the lyrics, which seem to suggest that getting angry and firing lasers and missiles at people to blow them up is a good idea, the song sounds fun And it's easy to sing along to. And the tune stays in your head. And it's so retro I'm hooked. Favorite anime opening song - no doubt.

2) Yaaaawn. Newtypes. Meh. I am beginning to think that Newtypes, and the explanation for exactly what they are is going to be the "shocking conclusion" to MSG rather than a theme that is exoterically present in the series (esoterically, it is now obvious that it's been there for quite some time). I guess I can live with that. I guess this is the part where watching Char's Counter Attack has spoiled all the fun. I had heard of New types before in relation to Gundam - but I never knew what it meant. I assumed it was in reference to Mobile armor... like a "new type" of technology or a "new type" of mobile suit armor that was err...better...or something. Also - nowhere in Gundam OO's five episodes that I watched were Newtypes mentioned so... nice to finally sort of know what it's about...

3) Now I'm kind of scared for Kai. Anybody who survives ALL of the episodes of a Tomino series up until the very end and ISN'T a main character...I get scared for. And let's face it - Kai isnt a main character in the fundamental sense of the term. He's more of a shadow - the humorous one when everyone is dour, the cynical one when everyone is full of hope, the frightened one when everyone is chasing into action... But for reasons written about earlier - he's my favorite male character in the series... and since I didn't see him in Char's Counter Attack... I have a bad feeling about what awaits him.

4) I'm more curious about the resolution of the Char-Sayla arc than about any resolution of Char and Amuro's arc. Amuro remains one of the most boring, predictable and uninteresting characters I've ever encountered.

5) Does anyone else think it's impossible that a weapon of mass destruction like the Solar Ray could be fired WITHOUT the ok of the Prime Minister of Zeon? That's just a bit convenient. I can't imagine that he would allow for a system to be set up where decisions like that aren't made by the supreme leader of the armed forces. Unless this was a coup planned by more people than just that big dude who Kcylia shoots in the head - it's kind of a bummer of a plot point. I understand the whole tragic aspect of it - but still...not ...er..."realistic"... while...everything else is...just...umm...very plausible ...really...

Hm...

What else?

Ah - I dunno. Lots of mobile suits being bandied about on the Zeon side. Lots of nice touches too, like the young student patriots flying the mobile suits and that one kid shouting for his mother as he burned to death.

Oh - almost forgot:

Is this the only "cartoon" to have so explicitly and romantically referenced Hitler and the Third Reich? I think it is. Many cartoons loosely base their "bad guys" on Nazism or some aspects of the Nazis - but this is the only one where Hitler's name is spoken and where Hitler is part of acknowledged history. I of course find it very interesting how Hitler is treated as a historical figure. He is looked upon as well tend to look upon the less likeable Roman Emperors. A maniac, a lunatic, a visionary, a fanatic - but someone that can be reasonably assessed, rather than someone who possesses no humanity, and no reasons or motives beyond being "evil" (with pinky finger at the lips!)... I like how he is discussed and assessed here by the Zabis.

And of course, I like how we live in the Middle Ages now

Pete

[F-ZeroOne]

The Gundam opening was penned by Yohiyuki Tomino, who has in his time provided the lyrics to some very catchy mecha show openings (Overman King Gainer and Aura Battler Dubine among them).

[Keith]

Dude that she shoots in the head? Didn't you catch that they were all Degwin's kids? Giren being the oldest wields power comparable with his father, which is why he was able to fire the Solar Ray unchallenged.

[VFTF1]

Dude that she shoots in the head? Didn't you catch that they were all Degwin's kids?

Yes, I knew that. I just forgot their names and the family name - thus "dude she shoots in the head."

Giren being the oldest wields power comparable with his father, which is why he was able to fire the Solar Ray unchallenged.

A dubious explanation. There are many logical fallacies inherent in this -

1) "power comparable with his father" is not the same as "power that is exactly the same as his father." By your own statement you seem willing to admit that Giren's power, though comparable to his father, is still not perfectly equal with that of his father. I maintain that those realms wherein the power is not equal (in favor of the father) are realms such as who gets final say about firing the Solar Ray. It is near to impossible that the execution of such an act is not regulated by strict military protocol, the use of codes - and that the codes would be in the safe keeping of the Prime Minister, who is the commander of the Armed Forces.

2) If power in the Zeon hierarchy is indeed distributed according to age, then Kyclia, being younger than Giren, should have been arrested for shooting him in the head.

Or are you suggesting that there is no unitary executive of Zeon, but rather that the family as such rules- and that Zeon is at the mercy of family squabbles and inter-familial bickering is the means by which decisions are made rather than laws, regulations or at the very least the orders of the executive?

I guess that's concievable - and it would go a long way to explaining the weakness of Zeon if it were true...

But I guess I'm too much of a Gundam newbie to be sure

Pete

Edited September 18, 2009 by VFTF1

[Vifam7]

A dubious explanation. There are many logical fallacies inherent in this -

1) "power comparable with his father" is not the same as "power that is exactly the same as his father." By your own statement you seem willing to admit that Giren's power, though comparable to his father, is still not perfectly equal with that of his father. I maintain that those realms wherein the power is not equal (in favor of the father) are realms such as who gets final say about firing the Solar Ray. It is near to impossible that the execution of such an act is not regulated by strict military protocol, the use of codes - and that the codes would be in the safe keeping of the Prime Minister, who is the commander of the Armed Forces.

2) If power in the Zeon hierarchy is indeed distributed according to age, then Kyclia, being younger than Giren, should have been arrested for shooting him in the head.

Or are you suggesting that there is no unitary executive of Zeon, but rather that the family as such rules- and that Zeon is at the mercy of family squabbles and inter-familial bickering is the means by which decisions are made rather than laws, regulations or at the very least the orders of the executive?

I guess that's concievable - and it would go a long way to explaining the weakness of Zeon if it were true...

But I guess I'm too much of a Gundam newbie to be sure

Pete

It could also be a situation similar to how Hitler came to power as Chancellor even though the Weimar Republic had the aging President Paul von Hindenburg.

My own theory is that Zegin simply handed the responsibilities of Zeon to his children - giving each one a piece of area to control. In a sense, although Degin was the supreme leader, the actual control of the day-to-day operations, inner workings, and especially the military of Zeon was held by Ghiren, Kishiriya, and Dozzle. Ghiren being the most ambitious and the eldest of the siblings would likely be the head honcho.

Edited September 18, 2009 by Vifam7

[VFTF1]

It could also be a situation similar to how Hitler came to power as Chancellor even though the Weimar Republic had the aging President Paul von Hindenburg.

You mean winning an democratic election after about 10 years of campaigning as a fringe candidate and getting recommended for Chancellor by a majority of the Parliament three times? I don't see the parallel. No burning Reichstagg parallel either, since Giren didn't go to the trouble of blaming the Federation for blowing away his father either.

My own theory is that Zegin simply handed the responsibilities of Zeon to his children - giving each one a piece of area to control. In a sense, although Degin was the supreme leader, the actual control of the day-to-day operations, inner workings, and especially the military of Zeon was held by Ghiren, Kishiriya, and Dozzle. Ghiren being the most ambitious and the eldest of the siblings would likely be the head honcho.

And that's exactly what I find so impossible to believe. I mean - there have been very very very few successful states or principalities where executive power has not been unitary. Seperation of powers is one thing, but to seperate the executive power from itself is suicidal. The only ancient case of it that I can recall to mind is Romulus and Remis - and one killed the other so executive power was made unitary in that case. Modern cases seem to abound, what with many countries having both a President and a Prime Minister, but in most cases, the President is just a figure head - merely the ceremonial head of State, while true executive power resides in the chancellor or Prime Minister. There are exceptions (Poland being a sad exception where executive power is de facto split and the President and Prime Minister keep claiming to be in charge and no one can say for sure which of them is the executive and which isn't).

I get the feeling - if anything - that Zeon really is more like a loose dynasty where there is no law, but rather the will of a family who are held in prestige, in accordance with conventions which hold the eldest to be the wisest. This is not a bad scheme on the face of it - until you realize that when a family is the executive, then the executive is conflicted against itself and there is no way to know who is in charge of what or when.

I don't know anything about Japanese feudal society or Samurai customs - at least nothing as compared to what I do know about Nazi Germany, so I'd rather not venture anything more than a question on this note but ---

The way they (the zabi family) act and rule kind of reminds me of a stereotype that is apparently in my head with regard to how clans functioned in Japan. Clans who had the unwavering obediance of Samurais who served them. I note that Zeon soldiers are unwavering in their obediance to the Zabi family - but the family itself is full of back stabbers.

Of course - this is a recipe for civil war because what if one brother turns a part of the legions of Zeon on another sibling or family member? How are the Zeon soldiers to decide who to serve? Whose orders will they listen to?

If we're going to make comparissons to Germany, I would pre-date WWII and nazism and compare what happened to the German...or specifically Prussian military ethos that was a big part of Germany's defeat in WWI. In the 19th century, when the Franco-Prussian was were fought and Germany was constituted following a swift series of successful campaigns, the new dogma was rooted in the belief that field Generals, making decisions on their onw without waiting for orders from higher ups, were responsible for much of the victories, and thus a heavily decentralized command structure was adopted and encouraged. In fact, German officers were taught a romanticized view of war wherein the field commander could change the tide of history by making bold decisions in the thick of the action (remember this was before GPS, satellites, and modern communication - so generally if you saw some opportunity to change the tide of battle, the Germans taught you should sieze it. Of course - the risk was that you didn't have the whole picture and might inadvertantly be leading to a catastrophe down the road.)

Anyways - my point is - Zeon seems to be ruled more in accordance with this romantic Prussian principle than in accordance to Hitler's more modern conception of the unitary executive. If anything, it seems like Ghiren hit upon the idea that it would be better for Zeon to have one executive rather than a family of them. He just miscalculated, thinking that just because he was the eldest, then upon killing his father, everyone else would accept him rather than follow his example of killing off the eldest.

I dunno - clearly the Zabi family had issues.

But that doesn't answer the main point of contention: how is it possible for weapons so powerful as that solar ray beam thing to be used without the consent of the supreme leader? How is it possible for all command centers NOT to know that the Supreme Leader's ship is in enemy territory for peace negotiations?

I just don't believe it. The only way it would have been possible is if Giren did not act alone, but was part of a coup.

Yet - where were his co-conspirators when his sister blew his brains out? Wouldn't they have then moved to kill Kcylia and take power themselves?

I dunno. I guess I was just slightly bothered by that because it seemed a bit too convenient a way. The tragedy of the son killing the father to take power was overshadowed by the fact that I just couldn't understand how the thing could have been fired without the consent of the commander of the armed forces...

Beats me. But it did kind of ruin the moment. I think that was careless thinking on Tomino's part plotwise.

But...I'm probably just nagging. It's usually so sellective - but for some reason people sometimes cling to some point in the plot and won't let go... guess this is the one I'm clinging to

Still not watched the last episode. I'm trying to build anticipation

Pete

[Vifam7]

You mean winning an democratic election after about 10 years of campaigning as a fringe candidate and getting recommended for Chancellor by a majority of the Parliament three times? I don't see the parallel. No burning Reichstagg parallel either, since Giren didn't go to the trouble of blaming the Federation for blowing away his father either.

No. More in terms that like Hindenburg, Zegin steadlily became a figurehead and someone ambitious like Hitler/Ghiren took the reins of actual power.

And that's exactly what I find so impossible to believe. I mean - there have been very very very few successful states or principalities where executive power has not been unitary. Seperation of powers is one thing, but to seperate the executive power from itself is suicidal. The only ancient case of it that I can recall to mind is Romulus and Remis - and one killed the other so executive power was made unitary in that case. Modern cases seem to abound, what with many countries having both a President and a Prime Minister, but in most cases, the President is just a figure head - merely the ceremonial head of State, while true executive power resides in the chancellor or Prime Minister. There are exceptions (Poland being a sad exception where executive power is de facto split and the President and Prime Minister keep claiming to be in charge and no one can say for sure which of them is the executive and which isn't).

How about the Roman triumvirate - Caesar, Pompey, and Crassus?

I get the feeling - if anything - that Zeon really is more like a loose dynasty where there is no law, but rather the will of a family who are held in prestige, in accordance with conventions which hold the eldest to be the wisest. This is not a bad scheme on the face of it - until you realize that when a family is the executive, then the executive is conflicted against itself and there is no way to know who is in charge of what or when.

I don't know anything about Japanese feudal society or Samurai customs - at least nothing as compared to what I do know about Nazi Germany, so I'd rather not venture anything more than a question on this note but ---

The way they (the zabi family) act and rule kind of reminds me of a stereotype that is apparently in my head with regard to how clans functioned in Japan. Clans who had the unwavering obediance of Samurais who served them. I note that Zeon soldiers are unwavering in their obediance to the Zabi family - but the family itself is full of back stabbers.

You may be right. A very likely scenario.

Of course - this is a recipe for civil war because what if one brother turns a part of the legions of Zeon on another sibling or family member? How are the Zeon soldiers to decide who to serve? Whose orders will they listen to?

Generallly in such cases they follow who they've been following all along. So if a soldier has been under Ghiren's command all along, they follow Ghiren. In Gundam it did seem as if Ghiren, Kishiriya, and Dozzle each had their own commands and generally did not work with each other. It did seem like Dozzle was left hung out to dry too.

Anyways - my point is - Zeon seems to be ruled more in accordance with this romantic Prussian principle than in accordance to Hitler's more modern conception of the unitary executive. If anything, it seems like Ghiren hit upon the idea that it would be better for Zeon to have one executive rather than a family of them. He just miscalculated, thinking that just because he was the eldest, then upon killing his father, everyone else would accept him rather than follow his example of killing off the eldest.

Good points.

I dunno - clearly the Zabi family had issues.

But that doesn't answer the main point of contention: how is it possible for weapons so powerful as that solar ray beam thing to be used without the consent of the supreme leader? How is it possible for all command centers NOT to know that the Supreme Leader's ship is in enemy territory for peace negotiations?

My guess - military matters such as weaponry use was not an area Degin had control over (especially if he was just a figurehead). Or if he did know about the weapon, he simply gave consent of use - not necessarily exactly how it would be used.

It possible Degin was moving on his own for the negotiations. IOW, totally separate from Ghiren's command. It's possible that Ghiren's command simply didn't talk with Degin's command. As I wrote above, it possible that each sibling/family member did not cooperate with each other. Each operating autonomously - only fighting together loosely against the Federation. Quick to backstab one if convenient.

I just don't believe it. The only way it would have been possible is if Giren did not act alone, but was part of a coup.

Yet - where were his co-conspirators when his sister blew his brains out? Wouldn't they have then moved to kill Kcylia and take power themselves?

I dunno. I guess I was just slightly bothered by that because it seemed a bit too convenient a way. The tragedy of the son killing the father to take power was overshadowed by the fact that I just couldn't understand how the thing could have been fired without the consent of the commander of the armed forces...

It's possible that the commander of the armed forces was Ghiren, Kirshiya, and Dozzle. Each with their own commands. Degin being just a figurehead or leader with no real power other than being the father of 3. Speaking of which, Tomino's stories often feature disfunctional families - with some kind of message regarding it.

Things like this is an area where fans and fan writers love to fill in the blanks. All this nitty gritty stuff is often not explained in most anime. Perhaps (IMHO) for the better? It at least makes for good discussion doesn't it?

Edited September 18, 2009 by Vifam7

[VFTF1]

Yes, it does. And it is for the better that anime doesn't explain it all away - they have so much to explain and focus on anyways..

Moving on:

I have watched the last episode of Mobile Suit Gundam.

I am underwhelmed.

1. What ever happened to kill 'em all Tomino? Really, other than Ryu, all of the heros survive. The other ones that die along the way (like Steggler chewie and Matilda) seem to have been introduced so they could die without having to kill off more of the main heros. A strangely "happy" ending....

2. So...initially, at the conclusion of Mobile Suit Gundam - Charr is presumed dead? Not that we saw him die, but given that that Zanzibar class ship fell on his position and blew up, it would be a technically safe conclusion?

3. The "resolution" of Amuro and Charr's fight by Sayla's entrance was...I dunno... I think it would have helped if, as in Char's Counter Attack, they spent some time explaining what Newtypes are and how they evolved. Now I'm glad I watched CCA because I would have been scratching my head thinking "but where did these Newtypes come from?"

4. Overall - the ending is choppy. Strangely, I read Gubaba say that fans love the ending. I think it sucks. I prefer the middle, which if I understand correctly lots of people don't like? The ending is just way to "Star Wars." Too many explosions and things blowing up and the hero's Gundam getting trashed and hand-to-hand combat.... but there's ultimately no meaning to it since everybody gets out ok and the main points of the show are not resolved....

In any event - this show definitely needed a sequal....

On to Zeta...if I can find it.

Pete

[Einherjar]

1. What ever happened to kill 'em all Tomino? Really, other than Ryu, all of the heros survive. The other ones that die along the way (like Steggler chewie and Matilda) seem to have been introduced so they could die without having to kill off more of the main heros. A strangely "happy" ending....

It started with Tomino's next work, Space Runaway Ideon, and then spilled into Gundam later.

[Gubaba]

Yes, it does. And it is for the better that anime doesn't explain it all away - they have so much to explain and focus on anyways..

Moving on:

I have watched the last episode of Mobile Suit Gundam.

I am underwhelmed.

1. What ever happened to kill 'em all Tomino? Really, other than Ryu, all of the heros survive. The other ones that die along the way (like Steggler chewie and Matilda) seem to have been introduced so they could die without having to kill off more of the main heros. A strangely "happy" ending....

2. So...initially, at the conclusion of Mobile Suit Gundam - Charr is presumed dead? Not that we saw him die, but given that that Zanzibar class ship fell on his position and blew up, it would be a technically safe conclusion?

3. The "resolution" of Amuro and Charr's fight by Sayla's entrance was...I dunno... I think it would have helped if, as in Char's Counter Attack, they spent some time explaining what Newtypes are and how they evolved. Now I'm glad I watched CCA because I would have been scratching my head thinking "but where did these Newtypes come from?"

4. Overall - the ending is choppy. Strangely, I read Gubaba say that fans love the ending. I think it sucks. I prefer the middle, which if I understand correctly lots of people don't like? The ending is just way to "Star Wars." Too many explosions and things blowing up and the hero's Gundam getting trashed and hand-to-hand combat.... but there's ultimately no meaning to it since everybody gets out ok and the main points of the show are not resolved....

In any event - this show definitely needed a sequal....

On to Zeta...if I can find it.

Pete

Before you get to Zeta, you might want to check out the Gundam Movie Trilogy, which addresses some of the weaknesses of the show. (Of course, they have their own weaknesses as well, the main one being that they are long and sprawling and very episodic...the first movie in particular seems to be drawing to a close about three times before it actually ends.)

Newtypes get explained better (and much earlier), some of the sillier mecha is removed (no G-Fighter, or Guntanks flying in space), and you get to see Sayla's boobs. The third movie is esepcially good (mostly because it's the only one that has a real ending).

And watch closely during the ending credits of the third movie.

Anyway, I'm sorry you didn't like the ending. I thought it was great, but I guess if you were expecting "Kill "em All" to make good on his name, you're bound to be disappointed. Not all (or even most) of Tomino's works have such apocalyptic endings.

[VFTF1]

I guess that's what I get for making Ideon: Be Invoked the first Tomino movie I ever saw. I just kind of expected it to be darker than it was...

I dunno. Maybe I'll skip to the end now and watch Turn-A-Gundam?

As for the movie trilogy - for the life of me I can't find those. Every time I try to download it - it turns out to be Gundam SEED. It's like somebody's playing a cruel joke on me. "Here - this is MSG the movie part 1".....[the next day after downloading - clicks play]....pow, wham boom! Oh - sacreblu! Monsieur Tulipan! Is that you riding that GMRXT-500? Mon Dieu!" "Oh?! Count Degrufus?! Yes - it is I! I remember you from pre-school! It was there I fell in love with Madamoiselle LaFruitloop and you took her away from me! Now I shall have my vengeance! Engard!" And my eyes roll and I can't bear to watch any more (although the animation is nice).

As for the G-fighter and all that stuff - I actually like it, along with the other "silly" mecha. I just think its' use is kindo f counter-productive... but the mecha don't bother me.

Oh - and did Amuro's dad go crazy? Did he lose his job? Or was he always that way?

Pete

[Keith]

Remember the first episode when Amuro takes out a Zaku, it blows up, and Amuro's dad and someone else get sucked out through the hole in the colony that the exploding Zaku made? His dad floated out in space a bit long before being rescused, and suffered brain damage from oxygen deprivation.

[VFTF1]

Remember the first episode when Amuro takes out a Zaku, it blows up, and Amuro's dad and someone else get sucked out through the hole in the colony that the exploding Zaku made? His dad floated out in space a bit long before being rescused, and suffered brain damage from oxygen deprivation.

Oh yeah. I forgot about that. I guess I had assumed his dad died.... and forgotten the whole incident until suddenly Dad showed up in that bookstore and then I was like...why is he so kooky?...

So...was the gizmo that Dad gave to Amuro really just a piece of junk? Basically the guy couldn't work anymore and was nutts?

Too bad :-(

Pete

[Keith]

Yup, absolute junk, he'd gone bonkers, but could still enjoy watching his son & mobile suit kick all ass on tv!

[Gui]

Hard to reply to such long posts but I'll try my best...

- Amuro's father is an ass right from the beginning and its stay in space with a probably damaged normal suit right after the very first episode didn't help him becoming a better man (lack of oxygen hurts the brain...)

- the newtype concept wasn't very well understood at the end of the One Year War because there wasn't a lot of research on this field at this time, and the lucubrations of Zeon Zum Deikun weren't of a real help because it was more a philosophy than a scientific concept; as for the principality of Zeon, they used them as weapons therefore it didn't help to understand what newtypes really were supposed to be. Hence the lack of informations at the end of the series. Obviously, the creators of the series themseleves didn't really know what to do with this neither, but they expanded the concept in the movie trilogy and the following stories... While I'm at it, you can find the movie trilogy at BakaBT

- as for Gihren's parricide... At the beginning, there was this space colony called Side 3 where Zeon Zum Deikun made his coup (his intentions were rather altruistic but the guy was a bit crazy so it couldn't really work the way he wished anyway...) and Degwin Zabi financed the whole thing because he was immensely rich; then Zabi murdered Deikun to take power and was supported by his eldest son, Gihren, to establish the Principality of Zeon, which implied to give him a part of his power and authority: of course, the son being as mad – and even more – than his father, he kept the authority given to him after the job was done in order to make his own coup when the time would come. But he was more subtle than his father because he didn't really make a coup strictly speaking, he simply expanded his influence progessively, and particularly in manipulating Degwin who didn't rejuvenate years after years – but not to the point that he didn't understand what Gihren was doing: he actually understood very well... but too late, because his son was already the master of Zeon. When the war broke out, he was already a puppet, and in fact Degwin never really wanted a war against the Federation to begin with: he just wanted power when he was younger, but Gihren wanted even more power, hence the war. When the conflict began, Gihren gave to himself the status of supreme commander, which means he had full control of the Solar Ray right from the beginning, all the more as he was the one who ordered its construction to begin with and his father never knew what this thing really was: actually, it was one of the most well hidden secret projects of Zeon – even the feddies didn't learn of its existence before it was too late. That's why nobody tried to stop Gihren: not only he was the one in charge of the Solar Ray, but all the staff controlling this weapon was fanatically dedicated to him, which didn't leave to Degwin a lot of room to dodge the strike...

- of course Kycilia murdering her own brother can look like a problem, but once Gihren's dead, she's the queen and thus she's above all laws, all the more as she had her own staff ready to fight for her to the death and dispensing justice in the middle of a space battle is not exactly a priority, especially this battle... We may consider this move as a bit rash too, not that she was very fond of her father but she simply seized the opportunity to take power for herself: she has never been very cooperative with her brother anyway, before as well as during the war – this point is rather well covered in the Gundam: The Origin manga

- yes, all these inner struggles for power were the main reasons for the downfall of Zeon: this can be seen as a critic of the monarchic system – History is full of similar events: the creators of Gundam didn't invent anything, it wasn't even their intent to begin with anyway...

You should give a try to Tomino's novel: it covers a lot of these points with good details, and much more; a friend of mine, who is historian, found that its political aspects made of it a very realistic story, and in all case it complets very well the other iterations of First Gundam

Edit: arf, owned by Keith for the part concerning Amuro's father...

Edited September 19, 2009 by Gui

[VFTF1]

Thanks for all the info. For better or for worse, I'm going to check out Turn-A-Gundam next :-)

Pete

[F-ZeroOne]

It started with Tomino's next work, Space Runaway Ideon, and then spilled into Gundam later.

Tomino first earned that title working on the series that preceded Gundam, Zambot 3. That is a really schizophrenic show, on the one hand you have typical bright 70s giant robot fun, and on the other ten year olds getting killed by spine implanted bombs. Its almost as if his staff were working on the show most the week and Tomino was sneaking in at weekends to insert mayhem.

Theres some evidence to suggest that Tomino, who famously suffers from depression, had "mood swings" throughout his career. Ideon, Zeta Gundam, Dunbine and V-Gundam are really his "genocide" shows. Xabungle, ZZ Gundam, L-Gaim (up to the point I've watched it) are his "happy pills" shows. Turn-A is the point where he reaches a balance (its also, by the way, perfectly enjoyable as a science-fiction adventure in its own right and prior Gundam knowledge isn't really required. Go watch!).

[VFTF1]

Oh yes, I'd almost forgotten Zambot 3, which (little of it that I've watched) was awesome....

Any how... I'm looking forward to Turn-A-Gundam. All I've seen up to now is episode 8. I wanted to know what the deal with that Mastergrade cow was, which is why I watched it. Hopefully now as I'll be watching the whole series through, it'll be even more thoroughly enjoyable.

The "problem" with Gundam is that there's just too much to enjoy in one sitting. Veteran fans at least have been at this for quite some time. Coming to Gundam as a newbie is...awe inspiring...

Anyhow... I'm happy. I just applied my...oh...well... that's OFF TOPIC...I'll take some pictures and go gloat in another thread!

Pete

[Gui]

You can't go wrong with Turn A anyway

Actually, it may very well be the best way to begin the franchise with...

[VFTF1]

I'm two episodes in and will likely be much deeper in by the evening. So far I'm totally loving it! Lots of naked chicks Yay!

Actually, I must admit that I'm having a sense that Macross Frontier's main trio was somewhat based on these three... Loran being called Lora (kind of like Alto is called Princess - and both are efeminete). And the two main sisters are total Ranka/Sheryl combo... especially the older sister who, when naked, looks just like Sheryl.

I wonder if she and Sheryl has the same sized boobs, or if Sheryl's are bigger?

Watch for more hard hitting, intellient analysis as I go deeper into the series.

Pete

[F-ZeroOne]

Clearly we have been watching different Turn-As. I was swooning over Harry Ord.

Oh, nuts, I just said that out loud again didn't I?!

[VFTF1]

Man...just when episode 1 pulled me in with all those naked chicks taking baths, it's now just war, war,war, mecha, mecha, mecha, honor, honor, honor, intrigue, intrigue, intrigue...for 4 whole episodes. I've just seen 2-5 and naturally I like the story - but I really miss the mood from episode 1. See - to me, just the very idea of someone living on the moon in a civilization that is technologically advanced and a remnant of a futuristic past coming to an Earth that has technologically regressed is interesting in and of itself.

But then again - I shouldn't complain. They got one whole episode of a great character story in without any mecha action... so kudos to Tomino for that achievement.

As for the remaining episodes... I strikes me as odd that having communicated with the Moonrace for 2 years, Gieren wasn't able to work out some kind of deal, to come to some kind of arrangement whereby the Moonrace would be accomidated.

More - it strikes me as quadruppally odd that the Moonrace, who clearly have lots of space ships, couldn't just immigrate to Earth the old fashioned way - voluntarily.

I mean - if conditions on the moon were so bad or if people just wanted to go back to Earth...couldn't they have hoped a FLAT or something and just come on down?

It's hardly efficient to invade a planet in order to have your people just move in and live there alongside the existing residents...

I guess I'm just finding it hard to believe that there was no commerce or other interaction between the two races. I can understand why the people of Earth couldn't go there...but why didn't the people from the Moon go down to Earth?

Weren't there any good business oportunities down there?

Pete

[Gubaba]

VFTF1, I'm wondering...would you have liked MSG better if the White Base crew had looked like this?

(And yes, this IS them...sorta. Amuro's in the middle with his back turned. Sayla, Kai, and Frau are on one side of him; Bright and Mirai are on the other.)