kung flu Posted January 27, 2009 Posted January 27, 2009 See, that's my 'problem' as a Gundam fan... I HATE 0080 because I think it's boring as all hell, and I LOVE 0083 with a raging nerdboner because the Kawamori designed mechs are my favorite Gundam ever, and I like the story alot, and how it ties in with Zeta, which is an awesome show in its own right. I also adore 08 MS Team for grabbing at that ground-pounder grunt loving side of me, same reason I like VOTOMS and those designs, their closer to walking tanks than Super Robots. For me, it's the story and characters that matters first in a gundam show. If a show just have good mecha designs i would still watch it too, but not with the same enthusiasm. 0083 is crap imo, but i still like it for the mecha, but dislike it for the story and characters. Its the same for ZZ gundam and the like, these shows i'll probably watch once but wouldn't really feel like watching it again. Quote
promethuem5 Posted January 27, 2009 Posted January 27, 2009 I like the characters in 0083... Uraki is a great rendition of the young pilot forced to fight archetype, and plays well off of Gato, who is a terrifying force, and Burning, who is one of my favorite support characters in the franchise. Seeing Bask already be a bastard is neat too. Quote
VFTF1 Posted January 27, 2009 Posted January 27, 2009 Well - looks like I'm going to go back to watching the original MS Gundam series where I left off. I thought - yeah - this is fun - but with all these other Gundam shows out there, I really wanna check out some other stuff. First I accidentally checked out Igloo 0079. 1 Episode was enough. Yeah yeah, your grandfather yaddee yaddee ya...the ocean...ble ble ble...and ooo...look, Zeon are people too...yawn. Oh - and I don't like CG people. CG Mecha - fine. CG people - still a long way to go. Prefer anime girls. So...then I went and saw part 1 of the SEED movie... was not impressed - by the story. The animation was great; the Mecha were very impressive and the pacing was really good. But the story...hm. Problem 1: Everybody knows one another. It would be like episode 1 of MS Gundam when Amuro manages to destroy those two Zakus actually going something like this: AMURA: Gotta...use this Gundam that my dad was working on or I'm dead... ZAKU 1: I'll take out the Federation Mobile Suit - huh? - it moved? Who's - AMURO! IS THAT YOU!? AMURO: John? My best friend from pre-school!? Is that you!? ZAKU 2: Darn it John - what are you waiting for?! Take out that Mobile Suit. AMURO: That voice? CHRIS?! My swimming teacher from middle school?! ZAKU 1: Amuro! you monster! You're with the Federation! RRAAARRG! (attacks) AMURO: JOOOOHNN! (instincitvely fires and blows him up) ZAKU 2: Amuro! How could you just kill another human being! Didn't I teach you that the reason I became a life guard at the pool was to protect all life! But now I'm gonna kill you! YAAARG! AMURO: Chris! Nooo! (boom. Kills him too). GIRL (appearing nowhere): I'm Princess Lea, daughter of the Senator From Alderan and the King of the Universe. Is that you Amuro? AMURO: Cindy? Cindy from my Sunday School? You were a Princess and daughter of the King of the Universe? CHAR WANNABE: I am Francois Le Crock of Le Shitmongerrie! Sacre Blue! Your rotting corpse shall rest on the ground for years and be eaten by worms! AMURO: Francois Le Crock of Le Shitmognerrie! I don't believe it's you... ---- And on and on and on and on and - gives me a damned head ache. Heck - in Macross Frontier, I was a bit annoyed at how "conveniently" Ranka/Alto/Sheryl all meshed together - but at least Kawamori spent three episodes telling the story of how they met, and at least there were some rather plausible reasons for it. Same for DYRL? - Hikaru, Minmey and Misa all crossed paths by chance in the chaos of war. Fine. It wasn't "Oh - it's you. How ya been?" .... The ONE things I liked about SEED was that one girl with the pink hair who Strike Gundam decided to take back to Char Wannabe's ship and to the pilot of the red dude Gundam who was gonna marry her. Why did I like her? Because she retro-actively reminded me of Nia from Toppa Tengenn Gurren Lagann. But - yeah - no ... I don't feel like watching the rest of this movie. No choice but to go back to Tomino's MS Gundam. It's hard to LOVE Tomino's work because it's just warwarwarwarwar - but at least it's thoughtful and has some interesting, moving themes to it. Not to mention a sense of adventure that isn't artificial. Pete Quote
Tinderfitles Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 No choice but to go back to Tomino's MS Gundam. It's hard to LOVE Tomino's work because it's just warwarwarwarwar - but at least it's thoughtful and has some interesting, moving themes to it. Not to mention a sense of adventure that isn't artificial. Pete That's an area where I feel that alot of people in the business of making Robot shows fail. They take the war aspect of it, dilute it and then give it back to the customer with a sh!t-eating grin. The one thing tomino got right was that war is a terrible business that is full of dark moments, people will die, characters should die, and there is no reason why a character should go threw the horror of war, without some sort of scaring. Quote
kensei Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 Trying to get through Zeta Gundam now. I've gone through 40 eps, but I don't think I have the strength to go on and finish it off. I just lost interest, and don't know why. Stardust Memory though, I sank my teeth right into, thought it was awesome. Must find time to finish Zeta, but I don't think I will be able to watch ZZ if it's similar. Quote
VFTF1 Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 I just lost interest, and don't know why I know why: 1) No cute singing girls 2) No cute singing girls 3) No cute singing girls This isn't to say that Gundam "should be Macross" - which is ridiculous, and I do enjoy MS Gundam for what it is - but in the end, I guess there's a reason why I'm writing about Gundam in the Off Topic Board of a Macross Fan Website rather than writing about Macross on the Off Topic Board of a Gundam Fan Website. Pete Quote
kensei Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 You reckon? 0083 didn't have any good cute singing girls either, but I really enjoyed that. Guess the story is not intriguing enough. Quote
Gui Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 If only I knew you guys were writings entire novels in this thread, I wouldn't have posted about First in the 'What Anime Are You Watching?' thread See, VFTF1, one of the many problems of First is that it remains rather obscure about some of the most important historical facts of the UC time-line of before the OYW, facts which are related to some of the various inspirations behind the initial project. The majority of them were later covered into various side projects and articles, but there's 2 of them which are of particular interest: 1) MS were supposed to be powered armors at the beginning, and inspired from Heinlein's Starship Trooper: that is, far much more plausible things than giant robots, even in counting in the various technological improvements of the future of UC. Tomino wanted to do something realistic but the toy manufacturers wanted something more like the usual 'super robot shows' of the time, hence the parts of the story which happen on Earth (to allow the audience see that MS are giant) but which doesn't fit the main theme of the concept (mankind at the dawn of a new age, the age of space: Tomino's novel is far much more coherent on this point, and you should really give a try to it IMO) even if this concept slightly looks a bit too much new-agish nowaday but, oh well, it was in the mood of the time and the influence of Kubrick's 2001 is also obvious even if it is clearly different in Gundam 2) the background is inspired by Gerard K. O'Neil's book The High Frontier which depicts a possible way to solve the problem of energy and overpopulation through space colonisation: the main problem of this book is, basically, the same than almost any scientistic theories, because scientists always give the impression that they think that science will solve all problems of Mankind, which is naïve at best and stupid at worst; because the human heart goes into depths that the mind cannot expect to reach, for obvious reasons: Hiroshima and Nagasaki clearly proved this point. This is not a troll: Tomino's japanese and we all know how much these events traumatized this people. That's one of the main underlying idea of Gundam: space colonies which were supposed to be the solution to all problems actually became the reason behind the next conflict, and the most horrible of all; that's the main difference between a writer and a scientist: the former never loses of sight the 'psychological' aspect of the human being, or he'snot a story teller. Basically, and this is not very well covered in the show, except in the speech of Gihren Zabi but unfortunately in a rather abstract and expeditious way (again, Tomino's novel is far much more comprehensible on this point), Earth Federation quickly began to exploit space citizens and this resulted in ever growing grudges from these last ones, which in turn opened the way to the monarchy of Zeon (the parallel with the nazi is obvious here: the german people also greatly suffered from the consequences of WW1 and the economic crisis of 1929, and all this brought Hitler at the head of the country...); the rest is self-explanatory There's some other things too, but because I don't know where you're at in the show I prefer to avoid spoilers: 'hope this has been of some help. Gundam's clearly a real evolution of the mecha genre, but not because of the 'technological' aspect of the MS, or not only because of this... let's say 'detail', all the more as it is not as much realistic as some people used to think: Gundam is a neat, plausible and realistic extrapolation of what may happen when we'll reach space (if we reach this area one day, but that's another question...) and for this reason it is simply good science fiction; you know, this genre which examines the possible impact of scientific and technological progress onto the evolutions of societies Quote
VFTF1 Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 Oh - don't take me that seriously. I haven't seen probably 75% of what Gundam has to offer - and I am happy with MS Gundam (the original) and imagine that Tomino's other stuff will sit well with me too - I liked his Ideon and I'm enjoying his Gundam. It's just - it's not like Macross where I can do a series Marathon and look forward to XL pepperonii pizzas and lots of beers and all nighters and happy go joy joy fun. It's more like the more Gundam Tomino you watch, the more depressed you become - and it's not some EMO depression like "oooo so sad!" - it's more like...this show just grinds on and on and on...and there's all this tension and pressure but it's never going to get released because every single day in a war is like that and there's no "whew - well - we survived!" point... Also - there's no cutesy fun civilian life. There's a cook running around begging for salt. There's people saying "eat this poo because you need to feul your body just like you fuel your weapons" - eating (something I LOVE) is done without love in Gundam - it's just part of necessity. The civilians are old whiney people because everyone else is dead. The enemy - who keeps on dying in droves - is also shown to be compassionate, caring and humane - therefore you don't even have the pleasure of thinking "yeah - the evil guys have been vanquished" - but instead you're thinking "Oh no - those nice guys with families who helped that woman and child just lost their arms and legs and got hideously burned in an explosion" It's actually WORSE (in terms of depression) than Evangelon. Evangleon is "Emo" evil - it is pumped up emotion - it is melodramatic. Gundam isn't like that. It's just click - boom - die. Click-boom-die. click-boom-die. Eat your salt ration now. Click-boom-die. Not even the Mecha are fun. There are no "mecha porn" shots. It's just click-boom-die. 40 + episodes of this is gratting and a fellow needs to take a break. Pete Quote
Lynx7725 Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 You picked the wrong series man. Zeta's known to be the crowning work of "Kill'em all" Tomino. ZZ apparently is better... for the front half anyway. Quote
Gubaba Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 Trying to get through Zeta Gundam now. I've gone through 40 eps, but I don't think I have the strength to go on and finish it off. I just lost interest, and don't know why. Stardust Memory though, I sank my teeth right into, thought it was awesome. Must find time to finish Zeta, but I don't think I will be able to watch ZZ if it's similar. Yeah, the second half of Zeta drags a bit, I think (Can't you just see the writers saying "FIFTY EPISODES? How are we going to fill all that?") but the last four or five episodes really pull everything together, and the ending is really good. And Double Zeta is NOTHING like Zeta...but once you start watching it, you'll wish it was. You picked the wrong series man. Zeta's known to be the crowning work of "Kill'em all" Tomino. ZZ apparently is better... for the front half anyway. Please define "better." Quote
Tinderfitles Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 Yeah, the second half of Zeta drags a bit, I think (Can't you just see the writers saying "FIFTY EPISODES? How are we going to fill all that?") but the last four or five episodes really pull everything together, and the ending is really good. And Double Zeta is NOTHING like Zeta...but once you start watching it, you'll wish it was. Please define "better." The second half of double zeta isnt horrible, in-fact its on the side of tolerable. Quote
VFTF1 Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 The second half of double zeta isnt horrible, in-fact its on the side of tolerable. Well that's an enthusiastic recomendation if there ever was one Pete Quote
Vifam7 Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 40 + episodes of this is gratting and a fellow needs to take a break. Pete You're experiencing combat fatigue. Have you experienced Armored Trooper Votoms yet? Even more grim. Quote
promethuem5 Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 God I love VOTOMS. Definitely watch that if you haven't... the first chapter is slow, but it picks up fantastically. Quote
VFTF1 Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 Well, I went back to the original series. Got through Amuro's Desert I can't help but thinking that the episode was going to be about some kind of Italian cake or something Um - anyways. This is really good stuff. The light hearted moment at the beginning was a welcome change of pace. The courage, inventiveness and dedication of the Zeon soldier, as well as the cool headed care of whiskers (Gouf dude) for his men was admirable. It's just hard not to feel sympathy for ALL sides of this conflict. As usual there was just so much interesting stuff going on - and...well - Bright made his first bad decision. What got up his butt? Amuro was insubordinate, sure, but he ackonwledged Bright's order and line of reasoning and went back to work. A guy named "Bright" should be Bright enough to know that you need to talk to the kid a bit and forgive youthful exuberance and eagerness - especially when it's being directed to saving your butt. However - taking the Gundam in his civilian clothing and getting the frack off of White Base was the right thing to do. Too bad Amuro seems not to be planning on pulling a Basara and just leaving the war behind to go work on his music... Still - good good stuff. And I have to say, I prefer this retro animation to what I saw in SEED - even though SEED was very good - this is better. It's kind of like Alien. I love the ship in Alien, and I love how Mother is a bunch of old 70s computers and christmas lights - why? - because THAT IS HOW IT SHOULD BE. Why? Well - consider the space shuttles - I know they are going out of service like next year - and hopefully something new and better will replace them - BUT - The space shuttles (NASA) are STILL using the same control and computer sets/panels that were installed in the 70s and early 80s. Sure, I'm sure they've taken modified laptops and digi cameras up there - but it's not like they strip the space shuttle every year to install the latest version of Windows (or the technological equivalent for all of the basic systems). What really pisses me off about contemporary Science fiction shows - both animated and non-animated is just how NEW everything looks. When - if you think about it - a GIGANTIC space ship like the White Base is probably meant to be used for decades - during which time it grows "technologically obsolete" - although it can still function. So it SHOULD look "goofy" and "not modern." SEED was just annoying with everything looking like it just rolled off the assembly line. This show is good. Sad, monotonous and grueling - but good. Pete Quote
Lynx7725 Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 Simple! It's goofy and not modern.... to the occupants. To us it's like SOTA, but to the characters, it may just be run of the mill stuff. Heck, in SEED, they got an EM Catapult. The USN still hadn't even gotten it into service yet. And they are jumping out of ships using that thing... Quote
Vifam7 Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 What got up his butt? Amuro was insubordinate, sure, but he ackonwledged Bright's order and line of reasoning and went back to work. A guy named "Bright" should be Bright enough to know that you need to talk to the kid a bit and forgive youthful exuberance and eagerness - especially when it's being directed to saving your butt. IIRC Bright wanted to take Amuro off the Gundam - to curb his cockiness. Amuro got pissed because he thinks Bright dissed him and/or no longer wants him. Not feeling wanted, Amuro jumps ship. However - taking the Gundam in his civilian clothing and getting the frack off of White Base was the right thing to do. You mean wrong thing to do. And I have to say, I prefer this retro animation to what I saw in SEED - even though SEED was very good - this is better. It's kind of like Alien. My biggest beef with modern animation is the lack of animation. I especially hate computer generated crap. SEED is a huge offender of using crappy looking CG animation. CG animation always feels to me like something cheap and a shortcut (I know it isn't, but that's what it feels like). There's something I like about animation that was done frame by frame in detail by hand. I love the ship in Alien, and I love how Mother is a bunch of old 70s computers and christmas lights - why? - because THAT IS HOW IT SHOULD BE. Why? Well - consider the space shuttles - I know they are going out of service like next year - and hopefully something new and better will replace them - BUT - The space shuttles (NASA) are STILL using the same control and computer sets/panels that were installed in the 70s and early 80s. Sure, I'm sure they've taken modified laptops and digi cameras up there - but it's not like they strip the space shuttle every year to install the latest version of Windows (or the technological equivalent for all of the basic systems). What really pisses me off about contemporary Science fiction shows - both animated and non-animated is just how NEW everything looks. When - if you think about it - a GIGANTIC space ship like the White Base is probably meant to be used for decades - during which time it grows "technologically obsolete" - although it can still function. So it SHOULD look "goofy" and "not modern." SEED was just annoying with everything looking like it just rolled off the assembly line. I'm not sure if I agree with your reasoning but there is something that makes "retro-ness" look right in a given show. I mean, heck, Macross too works on having a bit of retro to it. Quote
kung flu Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 My biggest beef with modern animation is the lack of animation. I especially hate computer generated crap. SEED is a huge offender of using crappy looking CG animation. CG animation always feels to me like something cheap and a shortcut (I know it isn't, but that's what it feels like). There's something I like about animation that was done frame by frame in detail by hand. All the stuff coming out these days are done by computer, they don't even hand draw and paint cells much any more which give shows a "glossy" and clean finish. I think Turn A Gundam is the last gundam show to be hand painted and drawn. Quote
Morpheus Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 I just saw MS IGLOO 2, now that was one awesome fed infantry action and somehow I feel sorry for the squad that tasted the heat tomahawk at close range. This is what I like about UC, realistic mecha movement with a realistic depiction of mecha sized machine gun. Can't wait for episode 2. Quote
Gui Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 [...] And I have to say, I prefer this retro animation to what I saw in SEED - even though SEED was very good - this is better. It's kind of like Alien. I love the ship in Alien, and I love how Mother is a bunch of old 70s computers and christmas lights - why? - because THAT IS HOW IT SHOULD BE. Why? Well - consider the space shuttles - I know they are going out of service like next year - and hopefully something new and better will replace them - BUT - The space shuttles (NASA) are STILL using the same control and computer sets/panels that were installed in the 70s and early 80s. Sure, I'm sure they've taken modified laptops and digi cameras up there - but it's not like they strip the space shuttle every year to install the latest version of Windows (or the technological equivalent for all of the basic systems). What really pisses me off about contemporary Science fiction shows - both animated and non-animated is just how NEW everything looks. When - if you think about it - a GIGANTIC space ship like the White Base is probably meant to be used for decades - during which time it grows "technologically obsolete" - although it can still function. So it SHOULD look "goofy" and "not modern." SEED was just annoying with everything looking like it just rolled off the assembly line. This show is good. Sad, monotonous and grueling - but good. Pete Dude, the White Base looks new because it IS new: this ship was built to carry MS, it is a few weeks old at best when the series begins (remember the reactions of the feddies in charge of Side 7 when the ship arrives in the very first ep: they all admire this pinnacle of the technology of the moment). Of course it looks new: it's the opposite which would be weird Same thing in Seed by the way Concerning ZZ, I heard that Tomino received several letters of fans after the ending of Z, people who said they felt very depressed and sad because of the darkness of the series, and he decided to do something like a comedy to counterbalance this. Dunno if it's something else than a rumor though... Quote
VFTF1 Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 Ah. Thanks - didn't catch that In any event - I find it adorable that the Captain uses a touch tone phone to issue orders to his crew Pete Quote
Tinderfitles Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 Ah. Thanks - didn't catch that In any event - I find it adorable that the Captain uses a touch tone phone to issue orders to his crew Pete Build it cheap and build it quick was the motto of the federation during the one year war. Quote
bob joe mac Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 lol keep in mind that this show (MSG) was made in the 70s they honestly thought that how whitebase and the like looked was super ultra futuristic. Light bright and a couple twisty nobs was damn amazing I guess to the people of the 70s I'm sure in 30 years we'll look back on our "futuristic" technology perceptions and laugh. Quote
sucker4meltrans Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 back on topic we need another UC gundam show. something that doesn't involve amuro or char. please Quote
bob joe mac Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 back on topic we need another UC gundam show. something that doesn't involve amuro or char. please MS igloo?? or television series like V gundam ? Quote
Gubaba Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 back on topic we need another UC gundam show. something that doesn't involve amuro or char. please That's a strange request, since they haven't shown their faces in any Gundam anime for almost twenty years, unless you count Gundam Evolve (and their respective mobile suits' blink-and-you'll-miss-it cameos in MS Igloo). Since I got into Gundam while Zeta was finishing up its first run, I always felt that Gundam was first and foremost the story of Amuro and Char. When their story ended, so did a lot of my interest in the Gundam world(s). As I've said before, I wish they'd revive Mobile Suit Gaiagear as an anime...the absolute closest you can get to featuring Char without actually featuring him. Quote
kung flu Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 Since I got into Gundam while Zeta was finishing up its first run, I always felt that Gundam was first and foremost the story of Amuro and Char. When their story ended, so did a lot of my interest in the Gundam world(s). The Gundam story kind of ends for me when it reaches Char's Counterattack. All the UC shows/stories after that seem seem to be like alternate shows to me. Gundam for me has always been Char and Amuro or Zeon and Federation. Quote
sucker4meltrans Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 we need another a 0080 or 0083. Quote
Gubaba Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 we need another a 0080 or 0083. As Joe Bob Mac said, we HAVE it. It's called "MS Igloo." Quote
Gui Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 We need a complete F91 as a TV series like it was supposed to be at the beginning instead of the truncated story we actually got Or a Sentinel show Or both Quote
bob joe mac Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 We need a complete F91 as a TV series like it was supposed to be at the beginning instead of the truncated story we actually got Or a Sentinel show Or both Or a crossbone gundam series/OVA whatever cause Super robot wars alpha 2 showed how fartin awesome that would be. Quote
sucker4meltrans Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 mobile suits weren't the back bone of the federation forces during the one year war. how about an ova about the crew of a fed space destroyer? you can have them suffer during the initial beginning of the one year war then perk up as they counter attack the zeon forces and then tomino can come in and kill them all and make everyone emo and moppy. Quote
Gubaba Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 Or a crossbone gundam series/OVA whatever cause Super robot wars alpha 2 showed how fartin awesome that would be. Hell, I'd be happy if they did a Crossbone Gundam Evolve episode or something... mobile suits weren't the back bone of the federation forces during the one year war. how about an ova about the crew of a fed space destroyer? you can have them suffer during the initial beginning of the one year war then perk up as they counter attack the zeon forces and then tomino can come in and kill them all and make everyone emo and moppy. Y'know, I'm beginning to suspect that you don't actually like Gundam. Quote
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