Gundam Show Thread - MSG thru Witch from Mercury

[promethuem5]

Interesting observation of the original dub... I'm making it my goal this term at school to finally watch all of SDF:Macross, of which I finally have all of the new dub DVDs, and the original MS Gundam, which I've never seen most of.

[nugundamII]

Well - now I suddenly have a totally different compehension of Gundam, and of Tomino.

All of the episodes I had watched up to now were Sunrise Dubs; then - all of a sudden - things switched to subs of the original Japanese (which I prefer).

In the Sunrise Dubs, I realized now - I couldn't warm to Amoro because his dub (combined with his hair-do) made me think of...Daniel from Transformers the Movie/Season 3. Yeah - I just couldn't shake the feeling that that was little Daniel there...

Now, with the original Japanese voice, that feeling is gone.

Frau Beau still has a ludicrous name, but she's grown a pair of tits suddenly and keeps winking at Zeons and being all womanly to Amoro.

Albeit - I'm not surprised Amoro only "felt the scent of a woman for the first time" when Matilda showed up, since - as I have noted prior - Frau Beau and Stela (?) just don't cut it...

But neither does Matilda. Leave it to Garma to apparently be the only one in the Gundam universe with a beautiful girlfriend/wife.

Just looking at Garma's girlfriend/wife (I assume that is his girlfriend/wife and not his sister?) makes me want to root for the Zeons. I've noticed that they don't have women soldiers, that their women stay home and dress in beautiful clothing rather than putting on pants and going to war, AND that their pilots are hell bent on sending food and supplies to single mothers with small children.

Meanwhile, the Federation won't EVEN officially help their OWN soldiers - DESPITE the fact that White Horse has Gundam aboard.

As the show goes on, I've got to admit I'm growing fonder of Zeon. And while I think the people on the White Horse are a noble lot; the Federation as such seems like something I'd understand Zeon wanting to declare independence from.

Anyways - War is Wasteland was a watershed episode, in a way, because Frau Beau noticed that she needed to be a woman to Amoro and at least was jealous, Amaro noticed that women exist, and Tomino at least didn't KILL the mother and child (I honestly expected them to perish, given Tomino's record) - but just was content to shatter their dreams, leave their home town a waste land)...

In any event - it is an interesting little drama that's been set up.

Also - this is something which is hard for me to comment on, because I'm really really bad at technical stuff - but I really like just how much of the minute-by-minute plot of the series is dictated by "reality." That is - by the limits that reality places on people - even people who fly giant robots. I like how every minute there's some either ammo running out, gravity screwing with balance, how there's strategy, how there are those Minowsky particles (what are those?) and how there's really a lot of thought put into the workings of these Gundams and the various machines.

I guess what I'm saying is pretty banal, since that's the whole essence of the real robot franchise - but still - as someone brought up on Super robots, for whom the realest it got was Macross (which, let's face it, is also very unreal insofar as it has oodles of gorgeous singing girls who all fall in love with guys like me [minus the variable fighter;)] - Gundam is really more down to Earth and the plot is made more interesting by the attention to detail.

Pete

YOu should go with MG or PG gundams

They are very detailed. More like toys and they are not that difficult to build. It usually takes me 48 hrs to build a PG and about 6 hours to build a MG. YOu need to pace yourself and have a routine.

[VFTF1]

YOu should go with MG or PG gundams

They are very detailed. More like toys

Tell that to my MG Unicorn Gundam. Playing with him is like playing with a woman when she has PMS...

Pete

[Gubaba]

Well - now I suddenly have a totally different compehension of Gundam, and of Tomino.

All of the episodes I had watched up to now were Sunrise Dubs; then - all of a sudden - things switched to subs of the original Japanese (which I prefer).

In the Sunrise Dubs, I realized now - I couldn't warm to Amoro because his dub (combined with his hair-do) made me think of...Daniel from Transformers the Movie/Season 3. Yeah - I just couldn't shake the feeling that that was little Daniel there...

Now, with the original Japanese voice, that feeling is gone.

Frau Beau still has a ludicrous name, but she's grown a pair of tits suddenly and keeps winking at Zeons and being all womanly to Amoro.

Albeit - I'm not surprised Amoro only "felt the scent of a woman for the first time" when Matilda showed up, since - as I have noted prior - Frau Beau and Stela (?) just don't cut it...

But neither does Matilda. Leave it to Garma to apparently be the only one in the Gundam universe with a beautiful girlfriend/wife.

Just looking at Garma's girlfriend/wife (I assume that is his girlfriend/wife and not his sister?) makes me want to root for the Zeons. I've noticed that they don't have women soldiers, that their women stay home and dress in beautiful clothing rather than putting on pants and going to war, AND that their pilots are hell bent on sending food and supplies to single mothers with small children.

Meanwhile, the Federation won't EVEN officially help their OWN soldiers - DESPITE the fact that White Horse has Gundam aboard.

As the show goes on, I've got to admit I'm growing fonder of Zeon. And while I think the people on the White Horse are a noble lot; the Federation as such seems like something I'd understand Zeon wanting to declare independence from.

Anyways - War is Wasteland was a watershed episode, in a way, because Frau Beau noticed that she needed to be a woman to Amoro and at least was jealous, Amaro noticed that women exist, and Tomino at least didn't KILL the mother and child (I honestly expected them to perish, given Tomino's record) - but just was content to shatter their dreams, leave their home town a waste land)...

In any event - it is an interesting little drama that's been set up.

Also - this is something which is hard for me to comment on, because I'm really really bad at technical stuff - but I really like just how much of the minute-by-minute plot of the series is dictated by "reality." That is - by the limits that reality places on people - even people who fly giant robots. I like how every minute there's some either ammo running out, gravity screwing with balance, how there's strategy, how there are those Minowsky particles (what are those?) and how there's really a lot of thought put into the workings of these Gundams and the various machines.

I guess what I'm saying is pretty banal, since that's the whole essence of the real robot franchise - but still - as someone brought up on Super robots, for whom the realest it got was Macross (which, let's face it, is also very unreal insofar as it has oodles of gorgeous singing girls who all fall in love with guys like me [minus the variable fighter;)] - Gundam is really more down to Earth and the plot is made more interesting by the attention to detail.

Pete

Unsurprisingly, I like the sub MUCH MUCH better than the dub...I wish a sub track had been released with the U.S. DVDs, but we'll probably never see one.

And yes, Icelina is Garma's girlfriend, and yeah, she's one of the prettiest in the show. I have a real fondness, though, for Crowley Hamon, Ranba Ral's wife (who I believe you haven't met yet). You might like Lalah, as well, but she doesn't show up until near the end of the series.

Overall, though, I think Macross has better female characters. From a feminist perspective, they tend to be stronger and better-devolped. From a non-feminist perspective, they're just hotter.

[Hikuro]

Not exactly show related, but as there been any word on translations of Unicorn? Or what the latest news on that is like if the novel series is finished and what not?

Kind of curious since I heard a long time ago there could of been a movie or something or was that all just promotional animation for the models and novel itself?

[Gubaba]

Not exactly show related, but as there been any word on translations of Unicorn? Or what the latest news on that is like if the novel series is finished and what not?

Kind of curious since I heard a long time ago there could of been a movie or something or was that all just promotional animation for the models and novel itself?

Well, there wasn't any chapter of Unicorn in the December issue of Gundam Ace, but since the chapter from the November issue was clearly not the end of story, it's still ongoing.

I've seen nothing about any translations of it, which I entirely understand...it's already huge and I've been led to understand that the author's writing style is rather difficult.

As for the movie/series/whatever rumors, I've heard them, too, although I'm not sure if ANYONE (outside of the Bandai higher-ups) knows if there's any truth to them. Certainly, the merchandising continues unabated...there's a new MG model of Sinanju.

Personally, if they are going to to an adaptation of an existing novel series, I'd much rather see Mobile Suit Gaiagear made as an anime. The Universal Century timeline needs a better send-off than G-Saviour.

[VFTF1]

Overall, though, I think Macross has better female characters. From a feminist perspective, they tend to be stronger and better-devolped. From a non-feminist perspective, they're just hotter.

Yes.

I must, however, try to be fair to the old folks on the White Horse, as I think I've been too harsh on them. I realized that given their age, it is understandable they want to touch down on earth "immediately" and don't care whether it's in Zeon territory or any other.

Old people tend to actually be more hot tempered about getting what they want "right now" because they are old. They are aware of the fact that death could be right around the corner - and not from war or battle, but from nature; which you can't combat.

So - I guess it's understandable...

Anyways - back to the women for a moment...

One of the most depressing scenes was at the banquet in the mansion that Garma and Charr attended... The three ..um...ladies...oogling over Garma had to be like 90 years old each... and in fact, besides Icelenia, I didn't spot a single young girl in the room - at least not of note.

Sadly, this is also a sad legacy of war - people don't have the resources to take care of their looks, the fashion industry is dead... creature comforts are all sacrificed in favor of mass war production and war fighting...

Again - this is why I prefer Macross; where civilians are not passive grumpy fodder, but actually make the difference...

oh well - in any event - thus far I would say that Gundam is a depressing show. Maybe Tomino's made shows that are far more depressing - but Gundam is certainly sad... even the theme song is a sad reflection "shoot, shoot shoot!" - it's as if Tomino were punishing us for our interest: "you like giant fighting robots - then you have to get used to non stop ruinous war that whipes out everything and everybody. Enjoy."

And one final thing:

I don't understand why Charr manipulated Garma into death. Did Charr think that with Garma gone, he would rise in rank or something? I don't understand. Garma didn't exactly seem to be making an effort to hinder Charr - overall, Garma was actually quite helpful.

Did Charr do it out of sadistic pleasure? That would be wierd - since doing in Garma entailed actually saving Gundam and the White Horse on more than one occassion.

I don't really understand his motives here...

Pete

[Temjin]

Personally, if they are going to to an adaptation of an existing novel series, I'd much rather see Mobile Suit Gaiagear made as an anime. The Universal Century timeline needs a better send-off than G-Saviour.

It would be great if they make a really good Unicorn Gundam anime, just to show off what a real Gundam show about. The mechas in Unicorn are a bit stylish, the anime might go with more Gundam Wing direction...

[lechuck]

@VFTF1

Why do you refer to the WHITE BASE as White Horse? Are you watching a bootleg or something. Oh, and it's "Char" with one "r" only. OK, I'll stop Gundam lecturing now.

As for the movie/series/whatever rumors, I've heard them, too, although I'm not sure if ANYONE (outside of the Bandai higher-ups) knows if there's any truth to them. Certainly, the merchandising continues unabated...there's a new MG model of Sinanju.

Personally, if they are going to to an adaptation of an existing novel series, I'd much rather see Mobile Suit Gaiagear made as an anime. The Universal Century timeline needs a better send-off than G-Saviour.

Well I think there is going to be another anime after Gundam 00.

I'm inclined to believe it's going to be UC because of the 30th anniversary thing and this website http://www.gundam30th.net/ they put up. For a while it was rumored that Unicorn would get animated treatment but latest rumors say that it could be a SEED movie.

Personally I favour anything on the back heels of CCA, so that would be either Unicorn or maybe Hathaway's Flash. On the other hand I wouldn't say no to Crossbone Gundam anime either. What I don't want to see is something dealing with OYW again and I'm indifferent to whether Tomino is involved or not.

[VFTF1]

Why do you refer to the WHITE BASE as White Horse? Are you watching a bootleg or something. Oh, and it's "Char" with one "r" only. OK, I'll stop Gundam lecturing now.

I initially was watching dubs - and they might have even called it White Base, but because Char kept calling it "The Trojan" - I thought of horses (guess I should have thought of condoms). And thanks to pointing this out Lecturing teaches me things so lecture away

I'm now passed the episode that ends with digging a grave for Garma's fiance.

Great uplifting anime this is

Pete

[Gubaba]

I don't understand why Charr manipulated Garma into death. Did Charr think that with Garma gone, he would rise in rank or something? I don't understand. Garma didn't exactly seem to be making an effort to hinder Charr - overall, Garma was actually quite helpful.

Did Charr do it out of sadistic pleasure? That would be wierd - since doing in Garma entailed actually saving Gundam and the White Horse on more than one occassion.

I don't really understand his motives here...

Pete

Don't worry, you're not SUPPOSED to understand it yet. This is art, sir. ART. All will be revealed in time. Although you might want to spend some time wondering why Char and Sayla know each other.

I initially was watching dubs - and they might have even called it White Base, but because Char kept calling it "The Trojan" - I thought of horses (guess I should have thought of condoms). And thanks to pointing this out Lecturing teaches me things so lecture away

I'm now passed the episode that ends with digging a grave for Garma's fiance.

Great uplifting anime this is

Pete

I think the English version flubbed that one badly. The Zeon's nickname for the White Base, "Mokuba," literally means wooden horse. In context, I think it's clear they're referring to a hobby horse. A nice, derogatory name that makes it sound weak and ineffectual. Instead, the translators went with "Trojan Horse," which as we all know was an instrument of war at brought about the end of a ten-year-war. It certainly fits for the White Base, but I can't believe the Zeons would call it that.

[F-ZeroOne]

Tomino has suffered from depression, and this has sometimes been reflected throughout his career. If you think the original series is depressing, you should try V-Gundam or Ideon (particularly the movie, Be Invoked)...

However, it can be argued that Sad Tomino is better than Happy Tomino - the evidence for this can be found in the first twenty or so episodes of ZZ Gundam.

Tomino eventually found a balance with Turn-A Gundam - he even went on to write a book about how uplifting an experience it was, and the series

itself is a perfect antidote to several bouts of Gundam-induced blues.

My understanding is that Char was trying to get revenge on the Zabi family - Garma was doomed just for being related to them.

[Gubaba]

Tomino has suffered from depression, and this has sometimes been reflected throughout his career. If you think the original series is depressing, you should try V-Gundam or Ideon (particularly the movie, Be Invoked)...

However, it can be argued that Sad Tomino is better than Happy Tomino - the evidence for this can be found in the first twenty or so episodes of ZZ Gundam.

Tomino eventually found a balance with Turn-A Gundam - he even went on to write a book about how uplifting an experience it was, and the series

itself is a perfect antidote to several bouts of Gundam-induced blues.

My understanding is that Char was trying to get revenge on the Zabi family - Garma was doomed just for being related to them.

Dude! VFTF1's watching the show for the first time. Why are you trying to spoil the plot for him? That sucks. <_<

[Vifam7]

Yes.

I must, however, try to be fair to the old folks on the White Horse, as I think I've been too harsh on them. I realized that given their age, it is understandable they want to touch down on earth "immediately" and don't care whether it's in Zeon territory or any other.

Old people tend to actually be more hot tempered about getting what they want "right now" because they are old. They are aware of the fact that death could be right around the corner - and not from war or battle, but from nature; which you can't combat.

So - I guess it's understandable...

Not to mention being cooped up in a cramped warship, eating crappy military food, and constantly being told what to do by people with guns.

Anyways - back to the women for a moment...

One of the most depressing scenes was at the banquet in the mansion that Garma and Charr attended... The three ..um...ladies...oogling over Garma had to be like 90 years old each... and in fact, besides Icelenia, I didn't spot a single young girl in the room - at least not of note.

Sadly, this is also a sad legacy of war - people don't have the resources to take care of their looks, the fashion industry is dead... creature comforts are all sacrificed in favor of mass war production and war fighting...

Not only that. In the Gundam world many of the young women are in uniform and in combat. Have you met Lt. Matilda yet?

Again - this is why I prefer Macross; where civilians are not passive grumpy fodder, but actually make the difference...

In a way, I see the Macross civilians like those of World War 2 generation (civilians that are fully supportive of the effort despite terrible sacrifices). Whereas the civilians in Gundam are more like today's post-Vietnam) generation who look at any kind of war with cynicism or outright contempt.

oh well - in any event - thus far I would say that Gundam is a depressing show. Maybe Tomino's made shows that are far more depressing - but Gundam is certainly sad... even the theme song is a sad reflection "shoot, shoot shoot!" - it's as if Tomino were punishing us for our interest: "you like giant fighting robots - then you have to get used to non stop ruinous war that whipes out everything and everybody. Enjoy."

It does make for a good anti-war message and you may be on the right track. But if you think Gundam is depressing, you ought to check out the Tomino directed anime - Zambot 3. Now that series was DEPRESSING and it showed the ugly (and perhaps a more realistic) side of a big giant super robot fighting a war.

And one final thing:

I don't understand why Charr manipulated Garma into death. Did Charr think that with Garma gone, he would rise in rank or something? I don't understand. Garma didn't exactly seem to be making an effort to hinder Charr - overall, Garma was actually quite helpful.

Did Charr do it out of sadistic pleasure? That would be wierd - since doing in Garma entailed actually saving Gundam and the White Horse on more than one occassion.

I don't really understand his motives here...

That will be revealed later. But take note of the last words he said to Garma.

Edited January 15, 2009 by Vifam7

[F-ZeroOne]

Dude! VFTF1's watching the show for the first time. Why are you trying to spoil the plot for him? That sucks. <_<

Sorry - not intentional. My mistake for just assuming that particular fact was fairly well known. Sorry again.

[VFTF1]

Gubaba:

Don't worry - I haven't read the spoiler - thanks for the heads up

F-ZeroOne - no need to apologize. Our friendly neighborhood Gubaba warned me in advance, and besides - if anything I am at fault for asking the question (hard to blame you for seeing a question and therefore trying to answer it)

Not only that. In the Gundam world many of the young women are in uniform and in combat. Have you met Lt. Matilda yet?

Yes, and I nearly fell over laughing when the narrator said that Amaro felt the scent of a woman for the first time when seeing her - since, IMO, she is not hot at all. Sure, she has lipstick and eye-liner and red hair - which I guess is a step up from being 90 and wearing the same clothes all the time or being Frau Bau (my God...I'm too harsh on that poor girl).. but still. The only girl I found attractive was the mother with the baby boy who wanted to go to St. Anges... she had a kind and gentle face and a nice body and good hair and I liked her spiritedness.

In a way, I see the Macross civilians like those of World War 2 generation (civilians that are fully supportive of the effort despite terrible sacrifices). Whereas the civilians in Gundam are more like today's post-Vietnam) generation who look at any kind of war with cynicism or outright contempt.

This is a good point - but it probably has something to do with the fact that during WWII, America was attacked and half the world was overrun by a dictator, while during Vietnam a small country was made a victim of super powers vying for control in an ideological controntation that could only be resolved peacefully (as it ultimately was) and there was absolutely no need for warfare.

Also - you could flip the analogy around and say that the WWII generation was passive - like the populations of the majority of warring countries - blindly following their governments, sacrificing their creature comforts and sending their children to die (something all sides did almost blindly) - while the Vietnam generation actually cared enough about the soldiers who were dying to try to do something to stop the war.

The Macross civilians are a mix of both of these views, I think. Remember the reaction of the Zendradi spies when they see Kaifun going on television to lecture the reporters about how senseless the war is and how they shouldn't be chasing tabloid fodder but focus on ending the senseless war.

One of the Zendradi says later that one of the reasons they wanted to stay on the Macross was because some of the people there "even were against fighting altogether."

This is really what makes Macross so wonderfuly successful: it has such a rich diversity of views presented in its' characters. Gundam, thus far, has a bit of a different dynamic.

Although - while sometimes helpful - such real world analogies have their limits. In the case of both WWII and Vietnam, we're still dealing with Earth-bound populations warring over various things. Gundam and Macross make Earth...very small...

In this sense, I understand the Gundam civilians. Although I have now reached the part where the Zeon are shown having their little fascist rally, I'm still not very convinced of their "evil" and can understand Amoro's doubts, given how the federation treats White Base.

But if you think Gundam is depressing, you ought to check out the Tomino directed anime - Zambot 3. Now that series was DEPRESSING and it showed the ugly (and perhaps a more realistic) side of a big giant super robot fighting a war.

I've seen a couple of episodes of that and yeah - it was shocking.

Pete

[Vifam7]

In this sense, I understand the Gundam civilians. Although I have now reached the part where the Zeon are shown having their little fascist rally, I'm still not very convinced of their "evil" and can understand Amoro's doubts, given how the federation treats White Base.

Hint: It's not "Zeon" that's evil. Nor is it the Federation.

Edited January 15, 2009 by Vifam7

[VFTF1]

Hint: It's not "Zeon" that's evil. Nor is it the Federation.

Oooh now that sounds interesting Can't wait till I get to the next episode

Pete

[F-ZeroOne]

VFTF1, thats a relief, thanks!

As to the "rightness" of the various sides, Tominos view has always been that there are no "good" governments, they're all as bad as each other. See Chars Counterattack for a very good example of this.

However, over the years, "Zeon" - who, in the original, are really an analogue of the Axis powers - have become very popular, to the degree that the Federation (representing the Allied powers) have become almost demonised. You can see this in Gundam 0083 and the first MS Igloo, and also in SEED to an extent with ZAFT (who have similar uniforms and style to Zeon, but are portrayed, IIRC, much more as the "offended" party... )

[Bri]

In a way, I see the Macross civilians like those of World War 2 generation (civilians that are fully supportive of the effort despite terrible sacrifices). Whereas the civilians in Gundam are more like today's post-Vietnam) generation who look at any kind of war with cynicism or outright contempt.

This is a good point - but it probably has something to do with the fact that during WWII, America was attacked and half the world was overrun by a dictator, while during Vietnam a small country was made a victim of super powers vying for control in an ideological controntation that could only be resolved peacefully (as it ultimately was) and there was absolutely no need for warfare.

Also - you could flip the analogy around and say that the WWII generation was passive - like the populations of the majority of warring countries - blindly following their governments, sacrificing their creature comforts and sending their children to die (something all sides did almost blindly) - while the Vietnam generation actually cared enough about the soldiers who were dying to try to do something to stop the war.

The Macross civilians are a mix of both of these views, I think. Remember the reaction of the Zendradi spies when they see Kaifun going on television to lecture the reporters about how senseless the war is and how they shouldn't be chasing tabloid fodder but focus on ending the senseless war.

<snip>

Pete

Ironically, it's the other way around. The Gundam civilians mimic the Japanse civilians during world war two. Most men are send off to the war, especially near the end of the war and most people that were left were the old the young. Japanese culture expects adults to show responsebility, but both the elderly and the young are more allowed to act like brats then in western societies. Even for all their moaning the civialins suffer a lot and do have a right to complain, especially to te military and leaders who dragged them in to a devastating war. Also the post war Japanse had little respect for the leaders of the empire who brought the country to ruin. It's not for nothing that the leadership of both the Zeon and Federation are portrayed in such a negative way.

Macross was originally pichted to the network as a comedy, and quite a black one at that. The makers never expected to get a go-ahead. It pokes fun at the classic Japanese view of the second world war and modern (late 70s , early 80s) Salaryman culture in Japan. The civilians in Macross are portrayed as materialistic, self-absorbed and shallow (welcome to the 80s). The civilians on Macross keep on working and shopping even when the Earth faces total anihilation. The old values of honour are forgotten. The whole idol/celebrity adoration gets exposed with the Miss Macross contest. It's interesting that we 2 decades later respect that attitude as an optimistic aporach to life

Another fine piece of black humour is the Zentradi war machine. Superficially it resembles the way the US military in WW2 was portrayed to the population of Japan. An unstoppable cultureless war machine with near infinite resources slowly building up and aiming to destroy earth (or Japan in this case). But in truth the Zentradi stand for the old way of life in Japan, the focus on honour and the myth of the samurai. The joke is that the Zentradi who are tired of a life of death and destruction think they get freedom and culture from the humans of Macross. Instead, they get a sold an empty dream and they end up with a hollow peace and enslavement in the salaryman way of life.

Most of the ideas here come from an academic paper on the meaning and cultural references of Manga and Anime. It was written somewhere in the late 80s, early 90s I think. I'll try to find the articles name and pblishing details later when I can acces the Uni database.

[Gubaba]

This is a good point - but it probably has something to do with the fact that during WWII, America was attacked and half the world was overrun by a dictator, while during Vietnam a small country was made a victim of super powers vying for control in an ideological controntation that could only be resolved peacefully (as it ultimately was) and there was absolutely no need for warfare.

Also - you could flip the analogy around and say that the WWII generation was passive - like the populations of the majority of warring countries - blindly following their governments, sacrificing their creature comforts and sending their children to die (something all sides did almost blindly) - while the Vietnam generation actually cared enough about the soldiers who were dying to try to do something to stop the war.

The Macross civilians are a mix of both of these views, I think. Remember the reaction of the Zendradi spies when they see Kaifun going on television to lecture the reporters about how senseless the war is and how they shouldn't be chasing tabloid fodder but focus on ending the senseless war.

One of the Zendradi says later that one of the reasons they wanted to stay on the Macross was because some of the people there "even were against fighting altogether."

This is really what makes Macross so wonderfuly successful: it has such a rich diversity of views presented in its' characters. Gundam, thus far, has a bit of a different dynamic.

Although - while sometimes helpful - such real world analogies have their limits. In the case of both WWII and Vietnam, we're still dealing with Earth-bound populations warring over various things. Gundam and Macross make Earth...very small...

In this sense, I understand the Gundam civilians. Although I have now reached the part where the Zeon are shown having their little fascist rally, I'm still not very convinced of their "evil" and can understand Amoro's doubts, given how the federation treats White Base.

I've seen a couple of episodes of that and yeah - it was shocking.

Pete

I think you're being a little unfair to Gundam...there are quite a number of viewpoints that come through in the show, but they generally don't arrive through characters making speeches...it's more in how people act. The people on the White Base are generally heroic, but not all the time. They can be vicious, or petty, or just plain exhausted. Likewise, Char is not a mustache-twirling villain who you love to hate.

But who you really want to watch are the minor characters. The Zeon soldiers who are just trying to do their job. The Federation soldiers who can be callous and brutal. The Zeon leadership is conniving, manipulative, and fascist, but the Federation is uncaring and ineffectual. It seems like you've noticed this, and are wondering what anyone's actually fighting FOR? Well, there IS something worth preserving in the Gundam world. You'll have to get pretty far in the series before you get to it, but trust me, it's there.

On a more superficial note: you didn't think Matilda was hot? You're a tough man to please.

I think you'll like Hamon (who's due to show up quite soon, if you haven't gotten to her already), though. At least, I hope you will. I always thought she was pretty cool.

[VFTF1]

On a more superficial note: you didn't think Matilda was hot? You're a tough man to please

That's what my girlfriend tells me all the time. But then again, she's not exactly easy to please either. It takes a massive amount of effort to put a smile on her face - which lasts about 5 minutes - and then it's back to "you suck! You're a worthless man! Do something to prove your manliness" and ... it's back to the drawing board So - I guess her demanding style has rubbed off on me?...

Everything Bri wrote about Japanese culture, Macross, anime, WWII etc etc

Very very insightful. I guess it's hard for me as a "westerner" to fully appreciate the specific commentary/references to Japanese history and culture made in any anime - since I don't know enough about them. Also, I have a distinctly(?) western habit of always looking for the universal themes in a work...

I think you're being a little unfair to Gundam...there are quite a number of viewpoints that come through in the show, but they generally don't arrive through characters making speeches...it's more in how people act. The people on the White Base are generally heroic, but not all the time. They can be vicious, or petty, or just plain exhausted. Likewise, Char is not a mustache-twirling villain who you love to hate.

I always behave this way with any new movie or show (the exception to this rule was Toppa Tengen Gurren Lagann, which completely blew me away from start to finish). I always resist watching anything new, and always try to find the "best things" to watch and just keep watching them over and over.

Of course this is kind of silly, because if I don't risk watching something new, I'll never get the chance to find how good it is. Still - that's just my habit, I guess. Only once I've grumbled past my initial reservations and endured to I start seeing merit in something.

I did notice how the Zeon soldiers are shown giving food to women and children, while the Federation soldiers are undisciplined and calous towards Amoro when he comes back to his mom's house.

And I would agree that it seems Tomino is saying that there is no such thing as "good government" - although I wonder whether he means this in a total way (aka - that there is also no such thing as good governing of the individual by his own self - aka - that there are simply no good people, that goodness is impossible, that - as the narrator keeps repeating "who will survive?" is the only thing that counts - not so much in the sens of it being the highest moral good or value, but in the sense that there are no moral goods or values, but merely survival?)....

As for Zeon...

Well - here's what bothers me:

First of all, it's a Principality. The narrator says they are trying to establish a dictatorship on Earth, but we really haven't seen how the Federation is governed in contradistinction to Zeon. And from what we've seen of Zeon, it seems not really to be a fascist society - "sieg zeon" and the rallies not withstanding. By this, I mean only that if anything, it is more of a monarchy, with a King and an aristocracy.

Also, just as fascism (in Germany) had a legitamite root to its' popular support - namely the unfair treatment of Germans in Versailles and their treatment in the post-WWI period - which was then used and twisted to establish a nightmarish regime, I get the impression that Zeons might have some legitamite reasons for wanting to be independent from Earth - or at the very least - the narrator at the beginning says the war started because Zeon wanted and declared Independence. In any event, the people at that rally who were screaming "sieg Zeon" - contrary to what some might think - were not doing so without a reason, I would wager. And insofar as they might have been manipulated, intimidated, propagandized etc etc into this collective frenzy - their initial support for Zeon Independence MUST have had SOME KIND of legitamite foundation (by which I mean some kind of passion, feeling, emotion that was caused by some sense of being unjustly treated or harmed).

Now - here's the key question:

Did the war start because the Federation responded to Zeon's declaration of Independence by launching a war for unity?

or

Did the war start because, after declaring Independence, Zeon launched an attack on Earth and the Federation Sides in order to "establish dictatorship?"

The narrative suggests either of these scenarios is plausible.

Now, if the Federation launched the war against Zeon, which merely declared Independence - then this is dubious. Unless, say, the people of Zeon were compelled against their will to live under a dictatorship or something of this sort - but we haven't seen much internal resistance on the Zeon side...

But.. hm ... yeah - finding any side that is "good" in all of this is pretty much just as impossible as definitively finding a side that is "good" in the real world...

What is most striking in Gundam - to Tomino's credit - is the juxtaposition of situations where Zeon or Federation soldiers are shown helping someone, being nice to someone, giving aid to people, or reminiscing about their families in one scene - and then, suddenly, are battling one another in another.

It's as if Tomino was saying: see, look how we're all the same, yet we just don't see it - we only see different uniforms...

Pete

[Vifam7]

Now - here's the key question:

Did the war start because the Federation responded to Zeon's declaration of Independence by launching a war for unity?

or

Did the war start because, after declaring Independence, Zeon launched an attack on Earth and the Federation Sides in order to "establish dictatorship?"

The narrative suggests either of these scenarios is plausible. 　

Actually, at the time of declaring independence, Zeon was a Republic. But machinations by the Zabi family converts Zeon into a dictatorship. Zeon then initiated an arms buildup. In January of UC 0079, Zeon unilaterally declared war on the Federation, proceeded to use NBC weapons on the colonies, and dropped a colony on Australia killing off half the human population.

What is most striking in Gundam - to Tomino's credit - is the juxtaposition of situations where Zeon or Federation soldiers are shown helping someone, being nice to someone, giving aid to people, or reminiscing about their families in one scene - and then, suddenly, are battling one another in another.

It's as if Tomino was saying: see, look how we're all the same, yet we just don't see it - we only see different uniforms...

You are quite on the right track.

Edited January 16, 2009 by Vifam7

[VFTF1]

Actually, at the time of declaring independence, Zeon was a Republic. But machinations by the Zabi family converts Zeon into a dictatorship. Zeon then initiated an arms buildup. In January of UC 0079, Zeon unilaterally declared war on the Federation, proceeded to use NBC weapons on the colonies, and dropped a colony on Australia killing off half the human population.

Ah - well that helps explain a lot.

So I take it that flash of light at the very beginning of the show opening credits and the ensuing "wave" which circles the Earth is the explosion of the colony?

Well - now this (the siezing of power in the republic of Zeon by the Zabi family) makes more sense and it does lend itself to Zeon being the bad guys - except...for one last point...

What was the reason for Zeon to declare independence from the Federation? Was it something the Federation did? Was it just because Zeon wanted to?

In spite of the "we're all the same/war is terrible" etc etc points - I still think it is important to make distinctions between regimes because war doesn't usually drop out of the sky for no reason. The causes are always complex adn mixed; but someone always has an interest, and there also always has to be a perception of either just cause or injustice done to someone to stir people to want war.

In any case - hopefully these things will reveal themselves as the show goes on.

And Char looks dashing in a white suit and those 80s Scarface sunglasses

Pete

[F-ZeroOne]

Its difficult to answer some of your questions without more spoilers... I think the best way I can put it is that the Federation and the founders of Zeon grew to have different viewpoints about the future development of humankind... and this is the real root of the conflict.

[promethuem5]

Alright, I chugged along on MSG today, and got to the first episode of the aquatic battles... this series is pretty awesome, and I'm sorely tempted now to pick up either the SHCMPro Gundam or the MG 2.0.

[Vifam7]

Alright, I chugged along on MSG today, and got to the first episode of the aquatic battles... this series is pretty awesome, and I'm sorely tempted now to pick up either the SHCMPro Gundam or the MG 2.0.

You can't go wrong with either of them.

[lechuck]

Or you can go with the GFF Metal Composite RX-78, approx. the same size as a MG.

Saves you the building if that is not your thing.

[VFTF1]

and got to the first episode of the aquatic battles..

Ooo... so am I to assume that Char will make a big splash in his Z'Gok? [get it - splash? ....yeah...dumb pun...]

Anyways - for my part - I've finished up the episode Gulliver's...oops - I mean Deacon's Island

Why was this episode supposedly left out of the english DVD? The first thought that comes to mind is that it might be because it doesn't move the plot along? It's a very stand-outish episode.... but who knows...

Anyways - what kind of bugs me in this episode - beyond Amaro AGAIN being a bit thick skulled (he always seems tailored dumb enough to fit the need of the situation. He's depressed, shell shocked and incapable of combat when the situation requires that he defend his friends, but he's ready to shoot at children and is generally gung-ho even when running around in his underwear... that's a bit contrived - it's as if Tomino were using Amoro as a blank slate; not really a character who develops - but rather a character that is just used to be the main conduite for "this episode's main theme."

To be fair - this was also somewhat the fate of Ichijo Hikaru; who was always a pretty bland character - although - could it be that they do this on purpose - make the "main character" very bland and vague so that as many people as possible can identify with him?

It would seem so. The opposite end of the spectrum is a main character like Bassara - who is very unique and has his distinctive style, which he is going to pound you with 24/7 - like it or not...

But - yeah... a quaint little episode - but I'm a bit impatient and want the plot to move forward - and don't really see how this moves the plot forward.

Pete

[F-ZeroOne]

One of the reasons I heard is that Tomino said that episode "Is too good for Westerners!" or something similar. And who is going to argue with the man who created Gundam? Not the puny licencing arm of some Genom-like Japanese toy company, thats for sure!

I bet Tomino gets away with a lot like that. Just bursts into places and yells "I CREATED GUNDAM!". Probably gets great discounts at Uniqlo.

[VFTF1]

I bet Tomino gets away with a lot like that. Just bursts into places and yells "I CREATED GUNDAM!". Probably gets great discounts at Uniqlo

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I just envisioned this in my mind - Tomino pulling up to get gass. "90,58 sir." "I AM TOMINO! CREATED GUNDAM AND DRIVE FOR FREE!" Tomino at the grocery store counter. "Ok - that'll be 45,24 sir." "I AM TOMINO! I CREATED GUNDAM AND I EAT FOR FREE!" and so on...

But if he said the episode was too good for westerners - that would be really fun Of course something like that could only be meaningful pre-internet These days, doing/saying something like that would pretty much guarantee that all westerners would quest through the web to find the episode that was "too good for" them

Cool

Pete

[Vifam7]

One of the reasons I heard is that Tomino said that episode "Is too good for Westerners!" or something similar. And who is going to argue with the man who created Gundam? Not the puny licencing arm of some Genom-like Japanese toy company, thats for sure!

I bet Tomino gets away with a lot like that. Just bursts into places and yells "I CREATED GUNDAM!". Probably gets great discounts at Uniqlo.

Tomino goes crazy when some big-wigs from a big-shot company tells him what to do or what they want.

Edited January 17, 2009 by Vifam7

[Gubaba]

One of the reasons I heard is that Tomino said that episode "Is too good for Westerners!" or something similar. And who is going to argue with the man who created Gundam? Not the puny licencing arm of some Genom-like Japanese toy company, thats for sure!

Hmmm...I'd heard that he said he was disappointed with that episode...which seems more plausible to me.

And I'm sure that the Bandai big-wigs are ABSOLUTELY POSITIVE that they know more about how to put a show together than Tomino does. And I'm just as sure that they're dead wrong.

[F-ZeroOne]

I suspect - rather like the mysterious case of ZZ Gundams first twenty-odd episodes - that the truth will never truly be known... (Tomino was also allegedly responsible for the dub-only US version of Gundam; I might be getting my legends mixed up... )

It could be argued that Tomino does have a habit of destroying (or at least severely vexing) successful companies. The creative decision to alter the Gundam design quite late in the planning process hurt original Gundam toy licensee Clover very badly (this is why the early Gundam toys are somewhat different to their on-screen incarnations [1]) and he followed that nail in the companys coffin with Dunbine, whose mecha designs wouldn't be accurately recreated in toy form until about 15 years after the show was broadcast...!

Sorry if this is turning into a "Cult of Tomino" [2] discussion, please carry on with the Gundam watching!

[1] Ironically, these are now some of the most sought-after Gundam toys of all.

[2] Like the Cult of Skaro. Only scarier.

Edited January 18, 2009 by F-ZeroOne

[Fortress_Maximus]

one thing i've often wondered about is how shayla after jeopardizing the crew so often w/her selfish actions kept getting away with it. this was evident when she stole the gundam (almost getting herself killed & the gundam captured) looking for char. and again when she went found char in texas colony... and again in jabaro... it seems bright let her get away pretty easily while punishing amuro (referencing the solitary confinement in the second film) for doing everything in his power to help and to stay alive since day one. i understand how the military may not want to recognize individual efforts but seriously if it was not for amuro's efforts and developing skills, white base would've easily been destroyed much early by char. any thoughts on why shayla kept on getting off easy and was given so much screen time? her contributions to 0079 was pretty insignificant imo much like in the z series.