Which Console? Part 2!

[JB0]

Time magazine had an article on the Wii with interviews with Miyamoto and Iwata of Nintendo.

I find this paragraph particularly illuminating:

"Nintendo has grasped two important notions that have eluded its competitors.  The first is, Don't listen to your customers.  The hardcore gaming community is extremely vocal - they blog A LOT - but if Nintendo kept listening to them, hardcore gamers would be the only audience it ever had.  "Wii was unimaginable for them," Iwata says.  "And because it was unimaginable, they could not say that they wanted it.  If you are simply listening to requests from the customer, you can satisfy their needs, but you can never surprise them.  Sony and Microsoft make daily-necessity kinds of things.  They have to listen to the needs of the customers and try to comply with their requests.  That kind of approach has been deeply ingrained in their minds."

398330[/snapback]

That is one of the most insulting things to say about your friggin customers! Lets hope those same hardcore gamers don't have subscriptions to Time magazine, oh wait a-minute they're of the age bracket that actually buys that rag. However it's entirely Atypically of the console industry, and most other ones also, to say "Screw you!" to the fans that made them.

It's ACCURATE, though.

If you ask gamers what they want, they point to something they like currently, and say "That." They don't think beyond what's there now.

Would you like to know what gamers have explicitly said they DON'T want?

More than one fire button, analog joysticks, and polygon graphics.

Nintendo isn't surprising anyone.

Based on the fuss raised when the controller was initially unveiled, they are.

They are simply recycling tech into another package

Tech that's never been effectively leveraged in the video game industry.

and the so heavly intergrating it into their "UPGRADED" GameCube that buyers are being forced to except it.

I think you mean accept.

And no one's FORCED to accept it. If people really hate the Wiimote, they... WON'T BUY A WII! Shocking, I know.

But the fact that Sony expended the effort to steal the primary feature of the Wiimote indicates that people ARE interested.

BTW, what's so bad about an upgraded GameCube?

The SNES was an upgraded NES. The Genesis was an upgraded Master System. The PS2 was (debatably) an upgraded PS1. The XBox 360 and PS3 both use upgraded versions of the GameCube CPU.

Upgrading the GameCube makes the system more powerful, while at the same time leaving programmers with a familiar architecture to work with. It's actually a GOOD thing.

Maybe you mean the Wii isn't ENOUGH of an upgrade.

Let's see... MS is losing money on every 300-400$ 360.

Sony's priced the PS3 at 500 dollars minimum, with 600 getting you the HDTV support they've been hyping as an integral part of the PS3 experience. I ASSUME they're at least breaking even, given Sony can't afford to take massive losses in their game division right now.

Nintendo has explicitly targeted a system that's profitable at a 2-3 hundred price tag from when they started development.

Me personally? I think 300 is about the upper limit for a reasonable game machine price. The PS3 may as well not exist right now, and the 360 needs a price cut(the 300$ version is actually 340, since you have to buy an overpriced proprietary memory card).

If they are surprising anyone it'll be well after the first 3 years of GC2 games are out and are over overwhelming quality without being the retreaded sequels that have powered their business for years.

A surprise would be high-quality games instead of tired retread sequels? I thought we were talking about Nintendo, not Sony.

I wonder if SqarEnix will do a FF/StarOcean game for 'Wii' (GC2). The new controls offer alot of interesting combinations for battles. 

398398[/snapback]

Squeenix doesn't make Star Ocean. tri-Ace does.

tri-Ace MIGHT make a Wii game. They gravitate towards unique gameplay ideas, which Wii happens to be very inviting of.

Squeenix is already booked for FF: Crystal Chronicles 2. Which isn't what you meant.

But I don't see how motion-tracking benefits mainline FF. Last I heard, it was highly menu-driven.

Edited May 11, 2006 by JB0

[Gunbuster]

i agree, most of the points are ridiculous. they just point out common complaints. if this and that ;; he complains about load time, to fix this system will be alot more expensive because they would have to use rom based memory boards for games...can u imagine a 4GB cart, it would cost so much more than a dvd disc.

if AI were as smart as humans, a very small precentage of the gaming comunity will not be able to pass level one, let alone finish game, because they will quit of the fustration of how "smart" the AI is. Hideo claimed that he has to dumb down the AI in the metal gear games because it was too difficult.

"Why isn't a there a spy game where we actually get to be a real spy rather than a hallway-roving kill machine? You know, where we actually have to talk to contacts and extract information and tap phones and piece together clues, a game full of exotic locales and deception and backstabbing and subplots? A game where a gun is used as often as a real spy would use it (that is, almost never)? "

has this guy ever played Spinter Cell or Metal gear?

"Where's the game where we're a castaway on a deserted island and the object of the game is to find food and clean water and build a shelter, a game where we can play for one month or six months, because whether or not we get rescued is randomized? Where every time we restart we get a different island with different wildlife and vegetation and water sources?"

has this guy played "lost in blue" on the DS?

"Where's the game where we play a salty Southern lawyer who has to piece together evidence to exonerate a black man falsely accused of murder, breaking down witnesses and spotting inconsistencies in testimony? "

has this guy played "Phonex Wright" on the DS?

i just wish he looked more into the things he complained about. there are reasons why they are there

While I don't agree with everything, some valid points are made.

398458[/snapback]

Some of their arguments are ridiculous, some are spot on. At times they asked for more challenging games, with better AI to take advantage of the horsepower beneath the hood of the new systems. At other times they whinged about games not handing out unlimited ammo.

It's too bad their rant against brand loyalty is marred by aiming most of their bile against one company's fan base. They are quite right that such loyalty is often misplaced, and harmful to the industry as a whole.

398475[/snapback]

Edited May 11, 2006 by Gunbuster

[Jemstone]

Solid Snake's gonna get his ass beaten by Pokemon.....

[Wes]

The problem I have with some games (Zelda especially) is that you can't set the AI. If some want it retarded, then let them have it. If you want to play with a increased challenge, allow for it. Zone of the Enders did good with this.

[Uxi]

The more I think about it, the better a move the gimped version of the PS3 could be... only if they would make it CHEAPER, though. $399 would be perfect for the cheaper PS3.

The high end model at $599 is not enough that I'm not going to be buying it (after all, I have a $4000 HDTV and didn't even blink at buying the 360 premium... once I saw it at retail in a store) and I think most of the hardcore types are going to get it come hell or high water. The videophiles alone (excepting the most partisan HD-DVD Nazi's) are especially eager to finally have a 1080p media that's not coming from a computer.

AVSForums was abuzz that MS supposedly posted the price of their HD-DVD add-on on their own site as $199 (before it was yanked, presumably after Sony's E3 announcement). I think a pricing drop on the 360 is inevitable if they're to have any hope in taking the console lead (at least in North America and maybe Europe - I don't think they have a prayer in Japan/Asia either way).

One thing I will say for the pricing of the lower end PS3 is that it does match the price of Toshiba's HD-A1 (the cheapest HD-DVD player), as well as the price of the Xbox 360 Core with an HD-DVD add-on at $199. And while the cheaper PS3 doesn't have HDMI, component can output 1080i for the short term and possibly indefinitely if ICT is never enforced), which is all HD-DVD is currently slated to do, for at least the short term.

[AngelBird4]

JBO

You hit a lot of it right on the head... I work for a developer, and if we spent time making the things that the fans screamed for, we'd get our asses laughed off and we'd tank in about two quarters. Most developers can't think beyond what's out right now, the thought of creative directors going no further than 'Give me Prince of Persia meets Tetris' or some such. The fans, oh please... worse by a long shot. If you watch a mod community there may be glimmers of hope, but by and large, developers have got to get it together to break out of this cycle. I think a radical tech infusion may cause some ripples down at the software level. Don't want to pay 600? Fine, prepare to get left behind... gone are the days when teh companies could suck it on the hardware and hope that titles made up for it. They let that ship sail for too long. You gotta pay for the system now, same as with PC gamers. That's part of why they try to integrate other useful bits (DVD functionality, etc)... anyway, don't like it? All right, but I can name 8 companies that won't be developing for PS2 and XB after 2007. (uh, rephrase, can but I think it's a no-no)

Anyway, it's nearly a no-win situation, and unfortunately too many folks pay attention to what the fans want (as voted on with their dollars) and crank out same old same old... and it's another fine line to walk, knowing when to break free from a convention and safe and marketable (and hopefully profitable) genre or title, to go after something groundbreaking. These days, when anyone's got a great new title or piece of hardware, all of a sudden half a million 'experts' who claim to have seen or know something (...do these guys think we don't read the forums... to laugh at them?!), or who think they need to be hip and cynical, start trashing you. So advanced word of mouth (yeah, right, based on nothing) gets you second guessing yourself, so maybe you back off of a feature, a new piece of tech, a new gameplay idea... and get smacked by your 'fans' for not going far enough, or for being reviewed as 'well, this is really just XYTitle with a new coat of paint' or some garbage.

My take: good on Nintendo for telling it as it should be and taking this all the way to release.

[Uxi]

I kinda think Nintendo is taking a big risk with completely marginializing themselves (especially if they focus exclusively on the 'Wii-mote'), though alleviate it simply by offering the 'classic' controller as well as the backward compatibility for the generation that grew up on the NES and is now starting to move into the Boku Bucks category.

I'm not too keen on the Apple-aesthetic that Nintendo seems to have adopted, though.

I myself doubt I'll get the Wii (still a stupid name), just like I didn't get the Game Cube or N64.

[JB0]

i agree, most of the points are ridiculous. they just point out common complaints. if this and that ;; he complains about load time, to fix this system will be alot more expensive because they would have to use rom based memory boards for games...can u imagine a 4GB cart, it would cost so much more than a dvd disc.

While lots of silicon storage WOULD cost much more than the pennies per DVD, you can do a lot for load times without reverting to ROM.

if AI were as smart as humans, a very small precentage of the gaming comunity will not be able to pass level one, let alone finish game, because they will quit of the fustration of how "smart" the AI is. Hideo claimed that he has to dumb down the AI in the metal gear games because it was too difficult.

People are actually pretty dumb.

You can make an AI as smart as people and whip it easily.

For the record, I LIKE "too difficult." I think most games are too EASY.

The best thing is adaptive difficulty. The game actively adjusts game variables, including the AI, with respect to player performance.

This avoids people getting mad because they just can't get anywhere, people getting mad because the game is too easy, and forcing people to guess on difficulty option(I'm never sure what level I should set when it's available, because everyone has diffrent ideas about easy, normal, and hard).

"Why isn't a there a spy game where we actually get to be a real spy rather than a hallway-roving kill machine? You know, where we actually have to talk to contacts and extract information and tap phones and piece together clues, a game full of exotic locales and deception and backstabbing and subplots? A game where a gun is used as often as a real spy would use it (that is, almost never)? "

has this guy ever played Spinter Cell or Metal gear?

Snake kills a LOT of people.

But I think the answer to his question is... it's BORING.

They still make adventure games occasionally, but they don't sell very well.

"Where's the game where we're a castaway on a deserted island and the object of the game is to find food and clean water and build a shelter, a game where we can play for one month or six months, because whether or not we get rescued is randomized? Where every time we restart we get a different island with different wildlife and vegetation and water sources?"

has this guy played "lost in blue" on the DS?

It sounds like SimCity: Lost to me.

Randomization IS something I'd like to see more of, though. It can be used a lot more than it is now.

i just wish he looked more into the things he complained about. there are reasons why they are there

Sometimes.

Others are there because they were there before.

Rigid difficulty settings and locked enemy patterns are NES paradigms that we never shook off. It's quite easy to randomize enemy spawns and types. Adjusting variables on-the-fly isn't a lot harder.

The industry just never got past the NES, though the logic behind the NES paradigm is long gone(For the games being made at the time, specific placement of enemies on the map was the most effective way of manipulating difficulty. Doesn't work so well in 3D.).

[Gunbuster]

People are actually pretty dumb.

You can make an AI as smart as people and whip it easily.

For the record, I LIKE "too difficult." I think most games are too EASY.

The best thing is adaptive difficulty. The game actively adjusts game variables, including the AI, with respect to player performance.

This avoids people getting mad because they just can't get anywhere, people getting mad because the game is too easy, and forcing people to guess on difficulty option(I'm never sure what level I should set when it's available, because everyone has diffrent ideas about easy, normal, and hard).

I agree with you, many people are dumb ;; they have lost common sense

My point was, if the AI "thinks" like you, you will lose, because, the AI reaction will faster than any human reaction.

I agree with the "adaptive difficulty" 110%

Snake kills a LOT of people.

But I think the answer to his question is... it's BORING.

They still make adventure games occasionally, but they don't sell very well.

you can challenge yourself in metal gear solid not to kill anyone (besides the bosses), but people like to kill ;;

Sometimes.

Others are there because they were there before.

Rigid difficulty settings and locked enemy patterns are NES paradigms that we never shook off. It's quite easy to randomize enemy spawns and types. Adjusting variables on-the-fly isn't a lot harder.

The industry just never got past the NES, though the logic behind the NES paradigm is long gone(For the games being made at the time, specific placement of enemies on the map was the most effective way of manipulating difficulty. Doesn't work so well in 3D.).

i do liked the locked pattens, because once u mastered a game, you can show off that you can finished super mario bros 3 in 10 minutes

Edited May 11, 2006 by Gunbuster

[JB0]

People are actually pretty dumb.

You can make an AI as smart as people and whip it easily.

For the record, I LIKE "too difficult." I think most games are too EASY.

The best thing is adaptive difficulty. The game actively adjusts game variables, including the AI, with respect to player performance.

This avoids people getting mad because they just can't get anywhere, people getting mad because the game is too easy, and forcing people to guess on difficulty option(I'm never sure what level I should set when it's available, because everyone has diffrent ideas about easy, normal, and hard).

I agree with you, many people are dumb ;; they have lost common sense

My point was, if the AI "thinks" like you, you will lose, because, the AI reaction will faster than any human reaction.

I agree with the "adaptive difficulty" 110%

Part of thinking like a human is thinking at human speeds.

Thinking faster than me would be superhuman.

Snake kills a LOT of people.

But I think the answer to his question is... it's BORING.

They still make adventure games occasionally, but they don't sell very well.

you can challenge yourself in metal gear solid not to kill anyone (besides the bosses), but people like to kill ;;

That's part of what he means. There's no alternative to blowing all the bosses away. A REAL Solid Snake would do everything in his power to avoid the confrontation.

...

And me? I'd've hotwired Rex as soon as I entered the hanger.

To hell with Meryl, I wanna put Snake on the RIGHT end of the thousand-ton walking death machine for a change.

Sometimes.

Others are there because they were there before.

Rigid difficulty settings and locked enemy patterns are NES paradigms that we never shook off. It's quite easy to randomize enemy spawns and types. Adjusting variables on-the-fly isn't a lot harder.

The industry just never got past the NES, though the logic behind the NES paradigm is long gone(For the games being made at the time, specific placement of enemies on the map was the most effective way of manipulating difficulty. Doesn't work so well in 3D.).

i do liked the locked pattens, because once u mastered a game, you can show off that you can finished super mario bros 3 in 10 minutes

398532[/snapback]

Which is bullshit.

Pattern memorization is nothing. If there's a set pattern, the game fails.

Reflexes, quick thinking, that's what real skill is. The ability to react to the unexpected is always more impressive than simply knowing where everything is.

It's even worse when you reach places that REQUIRE offscreen knowledge to navigate successfully.

To take an old example...

Space Invaders is rigid, unchanging, locked. The enemy bullets might be randomized, but the rest of the game is insanely mechanical. If you've beat round 1 once, you've beat it a million times.

Asteroids is a flexible and changing game. Asteroid start locations are randomized, and all actions past that are dependent on player action. Round 1 may always be easy, but it's always DIFFRENT, making every play unique and interesting. It's a very organic game.

I think you can guess which one I prefer.

I hate pattern-based games. Passionately.

[Radd]

Solid Snake's gonna get his ass beaten by Pokemon.....

398518[/snapback]

I'm so incredibly giddy right now.

[Black Valkyrie]

With all these hype, you know what game I bought recently just to try out ... Catz for my GBA, OK you can laugh.

Vidéo Super Smash Bros. Brawl :

http://www.jeux-france.com/downloads5874_v...bros-brawl.html

[UN Spacy]

With all these hype, you know what game I bought recently just to try out ... Catz for my GBA, OK you can laugh. 

Vidéo Super Smash Bros. Brawl : 

http://www.jeux-france.com/downloads5874_v...bros-brawl.html

398579[/snapback]

[JB0]

Don't want to pay 600? Fine, prepare to get left behind... gone are the days when teh companies could suck it on the hardware and hope that titles made up for it. They let that ship sail for too long. You gotta pay for the system now, same as with PC gamers. That's part of why they try to integrate other useful bits (DVD functionality, etc)... anyway, don't like it? All right, but I can name 8 companies that won't be developing for PS2 and XB after 2007. (uh, rephrase, can but I think it's a no-no)

I only just saw this.

360 is almost reasonably priced. Admittedly, MS is bleeding red ink all over every unit, but...

The Wii is expected to be cheaper, and profitable. Nintendo's been very good about profiting on the console sales.

So Wii now, 360 after a price cut, PS3... whenever Sony can get it to a reasonable level.

The Saturn set a really bad precedent of losing money, and the PS2 and XBox sustained it. 360 is likely the last system to do so, though.

[CoryHolmes]

Snake kills a LOT of people.

But I think the answer to his question is... it's BORING.

They still make adventure games occasionally, but they don't sell very well.

you can challenge yourself in metal gear solid not to kill anyone (besides the bosses), but people like to kill ;;

That's part of what he means. There's no alternative to blowing all the bosses away. A REAL Solid Snake would do everything in his power to avoid the confrontation.

398554[/snapback]

See, this is part of the reason why I've sold my Metal Gear games and latched onto Splinter Cell as my spy game of choice. In Splinter Cell, especially Chaos Theory (and the new Double Agent, I believe) you actually get docked points if you kill anyone, or even knock them out. The only way to get 100% on a mission is to get in, do your stuff, and get out without leaving a trail of dead and unconsious bodies behind you.

To get back to the topic at hand, I think I've got a problem with less-than-a-week-old 360. Twice now while playing DOA4 (great game, that) a rattling noise starts coming from the 360, the background music ends and the voice actors' voices don't play during the end animations, and then the game freezes. The only way to get it unfrozen is to shut the power off and wait for a bit.

I've looked at the disc and I can see no noticiable scratches on it, but I don't really want to go through this too often. Do you more knowledgable people think this the unit wonky or just a poor game disc?

[Seven]

To get back to the topic at hand, I think I've got a problem with less-than-a-week-old 360.  Twice now while playing DOA4 (great game, that) a rattling noise starts coming from the 360, the background music ends and the voice actors' voices don't play during the end animations, and then the game freezes.  The only way to get it unfrozen is to shut the power off and wait for a bit.

I've looked at the disc and I can see no noticiable scratches on it, but I don't really want to go through this too often.  Do you more knowledgable people think this the unit wonky or just a poor game disc?

398614[/snapback]

The rattling noise along with the hanging animations and music ending sounds like the DVD rom crapping out or the disc getting out of alignment.

[jenius]

Don't want to pay 600? Fine, prepare to get left behind... gone are the days when teh companies could suck it on the hardware and hope that titles made up for it. They let that ship sail for too long. You gotta pay for the system now, same as with PC gamers. That's part of why they try to integrate other useful bits (DVD functionality, etc)... anyway, don't like it? All right, but I can name 8 companies that won't be developing for PS2 and XB after 2007. (uh, rephrase, can but I think it's a no-no)

This guy must love his Panasonic 3DO also.... Yeah, over-priced systems are the only way to go!

I don't mind being left a couple years behind anyway, there's way too many great PS2 games I haven't played yet and I get so little time to play it'll take that long for me to catch up.

[chrono]

It's ACCURATE, though.

If you ask gamers what they want, they point to something they like currently, and say "That." They don't think beyond what's there now.

Would you like to know what gamers have explicitly said they DON'T want?

More than one fire button, analog joysticks, and polygon graphics.

Sadly it's NOT. Nintendo has been under heavy fire for the las 2 gens of systems and this is your basic company handwaving attempt to minimize the effects that blogging has done to them in the gaming community and it's a printable stab at their detractors.

The gamers have been are right about not wanting MORE fire buttons and crappy analog sticks. Those situations were clear indicators well before those same customers started complaining about having to re-learn control patterns between games. The problem was and is badly designed interfaces in the game. Hell computers are taking the opposite approach with thier programs and have been for over 10 years now. Maybe consoles will finally get a clue soon about building smoother less control requiring game interfaces.

Based on the fuss raised when the controller was initially unveiled, they are.

It's only a 'fuss' because instead of a later released optional controller it's now a foundational part of the system. Something that no competing company has try'ed to do and Nintendo wouldn't have even attempted it if they didn't have the money to take the potential loses from.

And no one's FORCED to accept it. If people really hate the Wiimote, they... WON'T BUY A WII! Shocking, I know.

But the fact that Sony expended the effort to steal the primary feature of the Wiimote indicates that people ARE interested.

Your forced to accept it if you want to play many of the tradional nintendo games and that's what people are buying nintendo for Game brand recogintion. It's like an American buying a car in another country to drive there. If you want to drive then your forced to accept the steering wheel on the other side or your riding the bus.

A surprise would be high-quality games instead of tired retread sequels? I thought we were talking about Nintendo, not Sony.

We are and when did Nintendo stop making Zelda games, any and all mario related games, Metroid games, & etc??? Oh that's right they haven't. So please save the Sony's Sequels rhetoric.

Squeenix doesn't make Star Ocean. tri-Ace does.

Good catch! SquarEnix is their long time publisher though.

Overall Nintendo IS in a 'good place' right now, with all of the monetary loses being taken by Sony & MS. If their plan for slight upgraded games work out then the platform should see more games and more customers.

You can make an AI as smart as people and whip it easily.

For the record, I LIKE "too difficult." I think most games are too EASY.

Totally agree. But it's easier to program a single multi-player console system then to program AI's. The game developer sees a WIN/WIN situation, because then they don't have to put much if any effort into AI OR multi-player 'cause both are provided! This has been a background problem ever since the 'net because 'popular'. :/

----------------

Anyways.... has anyone seen the E3 NaughtyDog trailer yet??? I've seen the newest WarHawk2 trailer with it's clouds that are flatout stunning and very nice surfacing. But is it me or does FF13 look ever more weird then 12 does??

[Apollo Leader]

A surprise would be high-quality games instead of tired retread sequels? I thought we were talking about Nintendo, not Sony.

We are and when did Nintendo stop making Zelda games, any and all mario related games, Metroid games, & etc??? Oh that's right they haven't. So please save the Sony's Sequels rhetoric.

398674[/snapback]

In Nintendo's defense, direct sequels to Nintendo's key titles on its home console systems (Mario, Zelda, Metroid, etc.) typically come every 3 years or even more. Mario Galaxy will be out well over 4 years after Mario Sunshine came out in the summer of 2002; Mario Sunshine came out SIX years after Mario 64! Metroid Prime 2 came out about 3 years after the first Pime; Metroid Prime was the first Metroid game since Super Metroid SEVEN years ealier. One of the most popular Nintendo series, Mario Kart, seems to go through 5 to 6 year gaps between console sequels. The Zelda games seem to be at least three years (there was the six year gap between Link's Awakening and The Ocarina of Time). And of course 20 years later, there are still some gamers who hold out hope that Nintendo will do a Kid Icarus sequel. Granted games like Super Smash Brothers and Mario Party see more frequent followups, but those are the exception.

[Apollo Leader]

Solid Snake's gonna get his ass beaten by Pokemon.....

398518[/snapback]

I'm so incredibly giddy right now.

398576[/snapback]

I was trying to figure out what you guys were talking about, but then I saw the news that Solid Snake will be in the Wii Super Smash Brothers games...

Hell has indeed froze over...

[Gaijin]

There is an interesting tidbit of news regarding the Hi Def discs studios release and the infamous ICT flag...since the announcement of the HDMI-less "core" PS3 and the add on HD DVD for 360 being HDMI-less as well...the studios are suddenly thinking that they really shouldn't turn on the ICT flag at all (light bulb went off in some execs heads).

[yellowlightman]

Chrono, what the hell are you arguing about?

I fail to see how you can be upset at Nintendo's new control schemes (the Wii and the DS) while NOT complaining about the fact Sony has been using the same shoddy controller for the last 10 years.

[Coota0]

Question: Is the only difference between the $599 and $499 PS3s the hard drive size?

[Radd]

No. The $500 PS3 has no WiFi, the HDMI support, and one or two other things gimped. I posted a link a page or three back.

[JB0]

Sadly it's NOT. Nintendo has been under heavy fire for the las 2 gens of systems and this is your basic company handwaving attempt to minimize the effects that blogging has done to them in the gaming community and it's a printable stab at their detractors.

The same bloggers that insist they need to give up their massive profits and become a 3rd-party developer for Sony? Those guys sure do have good business sense...

The gamers have been are right about not wanting MORE fire buttons and crappy analog sticks. Those situations were clear indicators well before those same customers started complaining about having to re-learn control patterns between games. The problem was and is badly designed interfaces in the game.

Okay....

*passes you a 2600 joystick*

Knock yourself out. Good luck playing anything released in the last 2 decades.

Analog control was a major innovation when it hit in 1983. And again in 1996.

>8-way motion was the most signifigant improvement to directonal control since people realized they could put a single control on top of 4 switches and make a joystick.

As for buttons... more complex games need more buttons. Fact of life.

Hell computers are taking the opposite approach with thier programs and have been for over 10 years now. Maybe consoles will finally get a clue soon about building smoother less control requiring game interfaces.

You mean the same computer games that use more buttons than a game console HAS just for weapon selections?

You're insane.

It's only a 'fuss' because instead of a later released optional controller it's now a foundational part of the system. Something that no competing company has try'ed to do and Nintendo wouldn't have even attempted it if they didn't have the money to take the potential loses from.

A. Nintendo's done it. Twice.

The NES was notable for not having a joystick. The N64 was notable for having an analog thumbstick.

B. Nintendo simply doesn't take losses. A business strategy with a potential for loss isn't acceptable to them. There's a REASON they turn a larger profit than anyone else in the industry, and it's because they think before they act. They've test-marketed the ever-loving poo out of this thing and KNOW it will do well.

C. Optional devices sure get a lot of support, don't they? Yup, EVERYONE made SuperScope and Menacer games, and SegaCD games sold millions.

Don't make me laugh. The ONLY way to get any signifigant software development is to pack the controller in. And they ARE including provisions for conventional gameplay.

Your forced to accept it if you want to play many of the tradional nintendo games and that's what people are buying nintendo for Game brand recogintion.

No. They're buying Nintendo systems because there's good games on those systems.

If the controls are complete poo, the games, by definition, won't be good.

We are and when did Nintendo stop making Zelda games, any and all mario related games, Metroid games, & etc??? Oh that's right they haven't.

And when did those sequels become tired retreads of low quality? The only retread I've seen was Prime 2, which was a retread of a game that was damn near perfect.

You confuse the existence of a name with rehashing.

Hell, many of the Mario games aren't even sequels. They're totally unrelated to anything, save for a corporate mascot attached to them.

And of course, you ignore new franchises, which appear with surprising regularity for a company that only makes Mario, Zelda, and Metroid.

The PS library consists largely of low-quality rehases that sell SOLELY on name.

Good catch! SquarEnix is their long time publisher though.

Except SquareEnix hasn't existed for most of tri-Ace's life. Enix was their long-time publisher, and it became SquareEnix after the merger.

...

Which has nothing to do with anything. Squeenix is their publisher. They have nothing to do with game development.

If tri-Ace wants to develop for the Phantom, Squeenix can't do a thing about it(though the complete non-existence of the Phantom might cause issues). They have NO impact on tri-Ace whatsoever.

Overall Nintendo IS in a 'good place' right now, with all of the monetary loses being taken by Sony & MS. If their plan for slight upgraded games work out then the platform should see more games and more customers.

They've been in a "good place" since the NES. Not necessarily the domiant force in the market, but always the profitable one.

Totally agree. But it's easier to program a single multi-player console system then to program AI's. The game developer sees a WIN/WIN situation, because then they don't have to put much if any effort into AI OR multi-player 'cause both are provided! This has been a background problem ever since the 'net because 'popular'. :/

It was a problem before. Even single-player-only games on systems with no connectivity have shitty AI.

But is it me or does FF13 look ever more weird then 12 does??

Wierd as opposed to what? A game designed around NES technical restrictions?

[JB0]

And of course 20 years later, there are still some gamers who hold out hope that Nintendo will do a Kid Icarus sequel. 

Pit's in Smash Brothers Brawl. That's probably fanning hopes now.

Granted games like Super Smash Brothers and Mario Party see more frequent followups, but those are the exception.

398682[/snapback]

Smash Brothers has been constrained to once a console so far. It's in the same category as Zelda and Mario Kart.

[Seven]

Talking about bringing back classics like Kid Icarus, I wonder why Nintendo never bothered with updates to Super Punch Out? Super Punch Out on the SNES was an awesomely fun game.

[yellowlightman]

Could definately see them bringing back Punch Out for the Wii.

[JB0]

I wonder what would happen if the poll was zero'd now that we know the PS3D0 is so overpriced.

[David Hingtgen]

I'm thinking about it. I THINK my Vice-Mod powers would allow me to reset it back to zero---the buttons and options show up.

[CoryHolmes]

I'm thinking about it.  I THINK my Vice-Mod powers would allow me to reset it back to zero---the buttons and options show up. 

398827[/snapback]

Do it! We dare you!

[bandit29]

Ya reset the pole.

and this is what's wrong with videogame industry today

Paris Hilton videogame series

hell she can't even get the name right...

[Axelay]

Could definately see them bringing back Punch Out for the Wii.

398813[/snapback]

I'd flat out LOVE to see a Punch-Out game which used the motion-sensing capabilities of the Wiimote.

Come to think of it, I am also praying that some very smart person at Sega has thought "Hey... how about a new Samba de Amigo?"

[Ladic]

Could definately see them bringing back Punch Out for the Wii.

398813[/snapback]

I'd flat out LOVE to see a Punch-Out game which used the motion-sensing capabilities of the Wiimote.

Come to think of it, I am also praying that some very smart person at Sega has thought "Hey... how about a new Samba de Amigo?"

398875[/snapback]

That brings back dissapointing memmories of Punch Ouch and the Power Glove

[Jemstone]

I was trying to figure out what you guys were talking about, but then I saw the news that Solid Snake will be in the Wii Super Smash Brothers games...

Hell has indeed froze over...

398684[/snapback]

I wouldn't say that. Apparently, Kojima has wanted Snake in Smash Bros for a long time now and had asked too late for him to be included in Melee. So he got his wish for this next game. Now we need Mega Man and a Belmont (I'm sure Team Sonic is there).