Which Console? Part 2!

[Uxi]

In fact, the only HDTV I've seen that I like better are the Sony SXRDs.  It'll be a long time before I need a new HDTV, but if I was going to buy one today, I'd probably go LCoS.

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As I've posted a couple times I use my 360 with my 60" SXRD and it looks great.

I was hardcore CRT for years and never thought I would go rear projection but the black levels and contrast ratio on this thing are incredible.

If LCOS has a weakness, it's in color uniformity. While my set doesn't exibit any symptoms, there are reports of folks with various issues, though you get the usual smattering of trolls and idiots obfuscating, if not magnifying the issue.

As is, I think LCOS is the best bang for the buck without any of the drawbacks of the other technologies. My previous 36" CRT HDTV (since relegated to bedroom duty) is just massive, weighing it at nearly double the weight of my 60" SXRD. None of the rainbows and/or resolution trickery you'll see in wobulated-DLP, etc.

[Wes]

David you're cutting yourself short if you aren't going HD, taking everything you said you want into consideration. They're cheap now (CRT, even some of the others are low), I got a 30" Philips refurbished for 370. You can get new TVs much like it at Walmart for 560 with tuners, so you can get antenna HDTV. The picture quality is a great step up - so long as you take the 5 min. it takes to set the picture right on your TV. So many people don't even bother to do that. And you can use them for other things than gaming - sports TV is a big one for many people (just be sure the TV has 720p, the standard for HD sports), and I use mine to stream DVD movies and fansub anime from my computer. It is definitely the best purchase I made this year.

[David Hingtgen]

I know, I'm still undecided. Thing is, 30in is also likely (but not definitely) too big. (26in became extinct almost overnight it seems) I really think I'm going to have to do like I did for the living room, and actually construct a cardboard mock-up to see EXACTLY how big various TV's are sitting there. I'm going out TV-browsing this afternoon. I still would love that 26in HD Samsung. Amazon has it for 40%! off but I really don't want to buy a TV online--if there's a problem it'd be such a nightmare. (I've read more Samsung tech support horror stories than everyone else combined---if it works it's great, but if a Samsung TV has a problem, it's best to buy a new TV it seems)

This is my current #1 CRT HDTV: http://samsung.com/Products/TV/ArchivedTel...R2678WHXXAA.asp

Don't worry about picture set-up, I've been going into the service menu for years---I tweak my sets forever until they're as good as can be. Ironically, I still use Final Fantasy 6 and Xenogears as test/reference, as there's something about the Ruined World's colors that REALLY highlight green/red tint differences as well as red bleed, and Xenogears is the ultimate overscan tester. (I'm one of those that set by eye, as setting up with a calibration DVD or something won't help when DVD and PS2 have very different output levels, and I play 10x as much PS2 as watch DVD)

mike---any lag issues? I read DLP's suffer the worst from it. I am super-picky about lag, as you might remember I posted about button sensitivity between various PS2 controller batches... (And I'm not fond of "up" nor "left" on the D-pad of my 360--up especially)

Still worried about 4:3 on a 16:9 screen burn-in too, as 90% of my stuff will still be that for a long time.

And as always---playing 480i games on an HDTV often doesn't look that good. I saw Shadow of Colossus on a LCD and man did it look godawful. I would hate to buy a new TV that made 90% of my games look awful. (Or at least until the PS3 comes out and outputs PSX and PS2 games to high-def)

Edited April 8, 2006 by David Hingtgen

[Wes]

LCD's aren't that great in general, you have to pay alot to get a really good one. Burn issues are almost non-existant on CRT, it's been a problem on Plasma though. You just can have it set on full-bright, which according to your expertise suggests will not happen.

If you're REALLY worried about longevity of the TV you can always by an extended warranty. Just be sure you don't pay too much.

[Wes]

Another thing to think about like someone said was weight. My 30" weights 126 lbs., which sucks because I move alot (but I use movers so that's alright ). That's why my next HD setup will be a projector.

[Gaijin]

Truth is, any fixed panel display will make 480i and SD TV look sub standard compared to a CRT. Honestly though, if you are planning to hook up your 360 and PS3 to it, you'll be happy later.

DLP and LCoS have their advantages and disadvantages but they are for large rear-projection so I don't know why they still come up as you want to stay in the 26-30" range. For that you are pretty much stuck with LCD and CRT. The 360 demo kiosks have Sammy 26" LCD's and they are not bad.

Plasmas (besides being too big) have burn in issues with 4:3 material that isn't stretched. Certain CRT's too. DLP, LCD, and LCoS do not, but they are all large rear projection with the exception of LCD's which you can buy flat.

An LCD will never look like a CRT in black level but once you start going HD, it's hard to look back...gaming and TV programming wise. Good HD programming picture quality literally looks like you are watching something outside a window. The absolute worst (if you get a satellite HD package, or some cable companies that starve bit rates on their stations) still looks better than a stunning DVD. Sure your PS2 won't shine like on a tube but your 360 and PS3 with Bluray will show their true potential.

Edited April 8, 2006 by Gaijin

[Gaijin]

These are some old shots of some DVD on a Panasonic rear proj LCD I did back in 2004...they were taken with a crappy camera and before I had better lighting installed so forgive the cracker ass pics...they were taken to just illustrate the size of the screen for someone and were posted to Amazon since I had 'em.

These are only SD DVD shots.

DVD on 50" LCD

And here's one taken with a crappy camera phone.

LCD TV taken with 1.3mp RAZR V3C

Edited April 8, 2006 by Gaijin

[JB0]

None have 2 component inputs though, I'd really like to have both 360 and DVD hooked up via it.  2 component inputs seems to require 27in or larger, or sheer luck of a particular year of production. 

Switchbox? That's what I use to manage excess s-video and composite feeds.

...

That and plug-swapping...

[David Hingtgen]

Component switchboxes bring up bandwidth issues for HD. I'm actually considering what I saw one guy do, as it does solve all the problems---use a bunch of composite switchers! Component and composite cables/connectors are utterly identical, you can interchange. You just need to have audio going through one box and video through another. And that method is actually cheaper than a good component switcher that won't have bandwidth issues or signal degradation.

Anyways, went TV browsing today. Confirmed I hate most LCD, though Sony Bravia's look ok. For 2x other LCD prices...

Saw the Samsung 30in HD CRT---quite nice in my eyes, though the one at BestBuy had obvious geometry issues, the one at Sears was really nice. Makes me wonder how much they vary---could the BB one be adjusted in service mode to be as nice as the one at Sears, or is it inherently messed and the best you could do is to lessen the curvature? If only TV's were at all consistent as they come out of the factory.

LG 30in at BestBuy---best HD CRT I saw by far, but a big reason was because it was actually set up right and had not-so-horrible feed. Also was designed much like a Samsung slim-fit case/base wise, which would REALLY help a lot where I plan to put it. Also one of the few that I could access the menu from and set it to "movie" and get it off of "super vivid" mode. Looked 100x better after I did that, and actually had one guy come over and ask what the heck I did to the TV that made it look so sharp! (since he'd been looking at them 5 mins before) People could actually see detail on TV's if they weren't kept at "Contrast=100, color=super blue" all the time.

BestBuy---my god they have such utter F-ing morons to set up the TV's. They had 16:9's running widescreen stuff in pillar box mode! And ever other combination possible. 4:3's running letterbox stuff stretched until it had 30% overscan, 16:9 stretched vertically to fill 4:3, 4:3 stretched wide to fill a 16:9, and every other "totally weird proportions" way you could imagine. Of like 12 TV's on the wall, I think 2 or 3 actually had their display and their screen match. I was watching "scovery Chan" on about half of them, the display was so messed. And watching Jim Carrey's "eyebrows to lower lip" on the other half... Though I must admit, Jim Carrey squashed vertically until he looks like a Hobbit is extra-amusing.

So that made it very hard to compare. Not to mention having 20 TV's daisy-chained off the same source made "difference in signal quality" show up far more than "difference in the TV screen". Half the time they blanked out due to weak signal. I spent more time trying to figure what was caused by the screen itself vs what was caused by the horrible signal they were receiving.

Anyways----while the LG 30in at $850 is nice, it's above my budget (not tremendously, but I'd wait a few months to save and get one), and I believe size. 26 is still much better for both size/weight/viewing distance I think, but the only one I found was the Toshiba HF84, and it had the worst signal of all--it looked like over-the-air during a snowstorm. I couldn't tell it's picture quality at all. It was however only $450, which I can get. Still waiting for the new HF66 version of that model--could be the same, could be better, could be worse. Noticed that BestBuy had several of the just-in-that-week 2006 Toshiba models, but not for the HD CRT's.

Final big comment: I noticed on every 16:9 HD CRT that the sides of the screen don't have the same resolution as the center. I think they call it "pixel cheating" or something. Basically, there are fewer pixels per square inch as you get farther out from the center. It's really only noticeable on the outermost inch or two, but it does create (to me) obvious vertical bands in that area. Now, if you just stand back and watch the middle of the screen you'll never notice it. But on games, so much info is usually displayed on the outer edges, so I'll be staring at it constantly.

I don't think I saw any 16:9 CRT that didn't do it, so it may be inherent (or just a very common cost-cutting thing).

I really want to know if the 26in do it too, but the only one I saw had such a poor signal I couldn't even tell it was in HD, much less check resolution.

[JB0]

Don't worry about picture set-up, I've been going into the service menu for years---I tweak my sets forever until they're as good as can be.  Ironically, I still use Final Fantasy 6 and Xenogears as test/reference, as there's something about the Ruined World's colors that REALLY highlight green/red tint differences as well as red bleed, and Xenogears is the ultimate overscan tester.  (I'm one of those that set by eye, as setting up with a calibration DVD or something won't help when DVD and PS2 have very different output levels, and I play 10x as much PS2 as watch DVD) 

I use games for tuning too.

Symphony of the Night used to be a favored one for some reason.

As far as DVD/PS2 diffrences... run the calibration DVD on the PS2?

One thing I've noticed with my freebie Screenzilla is that everything I have hooked to it is starting and ending the image at diffrent places.

...

Especially my NES. It shifts the picture WAY to the right.

Component switchboxes bring up bandwidth issues for HD.  I'm actually considering what I saw one guy do, as it does solve all the problems---use a bunch of composite switchers!  Component and composite cables/connectors are utterly identical, you can interchange.  You just need to have audio going through one box and video through another.  And that method is actually cheaper than a good component switcher that won't have bandwidth issues or signal degradation. 

Mmmm... makes sense.

I'm admittedly not very familiar with that aspect.

I know they use RCA jacks, though!

Anyways, went TV browsing today.  Confirmed I hate most LCD, though Sony Bravia's look ok.  For 2x other LCD prices...

Yah. Good LCD = big sticker.

Most people can't tell the diffrence, so skimping on the driver circuits is a good way to cut costs.

People could actually see detail on TV's if they weren't kept at "Contrast=100, color=super blue" all the time. 

Super-blue is odd, really. They overdrive the red because more red makes the TVs look "better" at a glance.

BestBuy---my god they have such utter F-ing morons to set up the TV's.

I say that everywhere... HDTVs being fed HD source material that's been downsampled to NTSC RF so they can feed all their TVs the same signal scares me.

Final big comment:  I noticed on every 16:9 HD CRT that the sides of the screen don't have the same resolution as the center.  I think they call it "pixel cheating" or something.  Basically, there are fewer pixels per square inch as you get farther out from the center.  It's really only noticeable on the outermost inch or two, but it does create (to me) obvious vertical bands in that area.  Now, if you just stand back and watch the middle of the screen you'll never notice it.  But on games, so much info is usually displayed on the outer edges, so I'll be staring at it constantly. 

Side effect of flatscreen, if I recall. You can't have the beam focused at the center AND the sides unless the tube has a spherical surface. So the beam is focused at the center, since that's the most important part, and gets progressively worse further out. On a widescreen, this aggravates things greatly.

[David Hingtgen]

After all this, I'm leaning towards "wait 2 years and see how things are". It really seems like CRT quality has tumbled lately, they just don't care anymore, since they're all making LCD etc. Every HDTV of every brand and type seems to simply be "which issues can you live with". I refuse to buy a TV that I have issues with, simply because it's HD. I'd rather keep my bright, flicker-free, glow-free, good geometry 20in than have to deal with 100 things in exchange for HD. Of course I blame a lot of issues on simply being digital with no real standards. How many posts do you see along the lines of "XX brand won't accept a 1080i signal from YY brand without white lines or flickering?" And I believe Sony just announced PS3's will use HDMI v 1.3, whereas almost every TV so far only has version 1.1 (and most TV's won't specify, and tech support is usually too clueless to know)----and I bet there's going to be a lot of people posting HDMI issues on launch day. Sorry for the rant about universal incompatability...

Or back to what I thought about earlier---just getting a 24in non-HD with component. Though again, CRT quality is down so much now it seems I could easily end up with a worse picture than I have. Problem is the 24in CRT's have redesigned cases which give them a footprint twice the size of my 20in for no apparent reason. Even the 20in ones are now a lot bigger than my 20in!

Maybe I'll just play my GB color...

[Gaijin]

HDMI 1.3 is backwards/downwards compatible with older ports. 1.3 is mainly for new audio codecs being passed through the cable much like 5.1 DTS and DD on current HDMI. No real biggie. It does add 36 bit RGB so color depth on games and computer software...no benefit for video though, not even Blu-ray or HD-DVD.

HDMI issues are usually from people using DVI/adapters (their display is usually non HDCP compliant), or certain cable boxes which have outdated firmware. Lots of the HDMI issues from those cable boxes are from ports that aren't even supposed to be active yet but "slip by" thus the weird handshake issues.

Edit: I see you're pretty set on a tube David...no way to get a Sears in your area to bring in one you wanted? Ordering what you want yet they still need to service/replace a defecto unit would be great.

Edited April 9, 2006 by Gaijin

[mikeszekely]

Sorry for the long wait until my reply. I had to work.

mike---any lag issues? I read DLP's suffer the worst from it. I am super-picky about lag, as you might remember I posted about button sensitivity between various PS2 controller batches... (And I'm not fond of "up" nor "left" on the D-pad of my 360--up especially)

I haven't noticed any lag, and since I've played a lot of Burnout Revenge and Dead or Alive 4, I'd like to think that if there was any lag, I'd have noticed it.

I'd read about lag being a problem on some sets, but I thought it was more common in rear projection LCDs than in DLPs. In fact, until only recently, most publications I'd read considered DLP to be best bang for the buck. And I haven't had any complaints about mine, aside from the fact that it only has two component video inputs and one HDMI. I used up all three fast. But my TV has an excellent picture, good viewing angles, and a wonderfully large screen. I only paid $2000 for it. I know you said that's more than you want to spend, but had you condsidered financing it? Best Buy and CompUSA are always doing financing deals. I got no interest for 18 months, so I get to make manageable payments until then and still get the satisfaction of not paying interest.

I noticed you also don't seem to be putting this in your living room? Any particular reason? Is that what's limiting you on space, or your furniture? I actually dismantled my old entertainment center, turned the sides of it into component towers, and bought a new TV stand.

[David Hingtgen]

Raw size of the room. Simple as that. My TV sits on top of an old nightstand with a turntable on top--it's the perfect height (very important, I find almost all "TV stands" too low) and quite solid and sturdy. If I REALLY stretch I can turn on my TV while laying in bed. I measured my typical eyeball-to-screen distance and it's 48 inches. I can't have a 50in screen 48in away. I like my screen size/distance setup, that's why I have my room arranged as it is. A 26in 16:9 is exactly the same height as a 20in, just wider. (or in other words, a 26in 16:9 will show 4:3 material on a 20in diagonal area) It is the perfect size, and it exists, so it is annoying that I can't find any...

Sears had half the TV's they had 3 months ago, they seem to have cleared out a lot of the CRT's of all types/sizes. Literally, a lot of empty spaces on the shelves. I don't know if they'd order in a TV so I could just LOOK at it and see if I wanted to buy it or not...

Still debating the "lower resolution at the sides" on 16:9 CRT's. That's the ONLY picture-quality issue I had with the LG set. But it was really obvious to me, not a little/transient thing. I notice it at my "I think this is my normal viewing distance" but I can't be sure--I plan to take a tape measure next time. If the 26's are just that much smaller and further back on the stand than the 30's, it may make that issue un-noticeable and be great TV's.

If LG makes a 26in I would so buy it, but I fear the coming Toshiba 26HF66 will be the last 26in ever sold in the US, and it could very well suck. The Samsung 2678 (barely still available online) gets good reviews (it's the Slimfits that often have issues), but I can't buy a TV without seeing it in person.

[mikeszekely]

but I fear the coming Toshiba 26HF66 will be the last 26in ever sold in the US, and it could very well suck.

Have some faith. Toshiba has a pretty good reputation, and I already can say they make excellent DLP units. Wait until the 26HF66 hits stores, then take another look. I'd also suggest reading a professional review, if you can. It's not as good as seeing and tweaking the unit in person to see how you feel about it, but professional reviews tend to give a lot more info than consumer reviews.

[David Hingtgen]

Toshiba had a great CRT reputation until the 2004 models--I've had several Toshiba's to that previously, it was always "Sony or Toshiba" when you wanted a new TV. 2004/2005 had a big drop in quality for CRT's--they outsourced all CRT production to a new factory, and a lot of issues cropped up. Consumer Reports dropped Toshiba from near the top to near the bottom for 2005 CRT models. THAT is why I'm wary. Only the flat-screen stuff is actually made by Toshiba---their CRT's are actually made by someone else now, with the Toshiba name slapped on. (I do go around checking for the "Made in" stickers on TV's, trying to determine which factory they came from---so many companies get stuff from the same factory--if there's problems or quality stuff coming from one factory, it'll show up in most everything that factory makes, regardless of what brand it's sold under)

PS---mike, the "lag issue" is AFAIK only when 480i is played on a HDTV--- upscaling the signal to 1080 is what delays it. Have you experimented with a standard PS2 signal to your TV? Like say the MegaMan collection on your DLP, I'm sure you'd detect the slightest lag with that.

PPS---actually played DOA 4 for the first time last night. Spent 10 mins trying to figure out how to turn off vibration (there's NO mention of it in the 360 manual that I could find, finally found it in the in-game dashboard--can't access it from the startup dashboard)

Anyways, I think the 360 is VERY loud and annoying. I'm going to have to move it further away from the TV (thank God for wireless controls), I have to turn the volume way up to drown out the 360's whining. And roaring. Very strange--most all systems "hum" smoothly and evenly but the 360 changes--roaring one second, whining the next. The sound doesn't really quiet down when it's not actively loading. Not a whole lot of variation, but enough that it's always changing so that you can't really get used to it. Also found out that it seems most of the ventilation holes are cosmetic---ALL the heat and air comes out the back. And boy is it a lot of heat.

[Loner]

Buy that Samsung you mentioned earlier, I have it and it's great.

Also those Red Steel pics goes to show that Revolution isn't just for show.

[JB0]

Buy that Samsung you mentioned earlier, I have it and it's great.

Also those Red Steel pics goes to show that Revolution isn't just for show.

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Nice touch in the pics I saw was that the character's gun style depends on how the player holds the wand.

[mikeszekely]

PS---mike, the "lag issue" is AFAIK only when 480i is played on a HDTV--- upscaling the signal to 1080 is what delays it. Have you experimented with a standard PS2 signal to your TV? Like say the MegaMan collection on your DLP, I'm sure you'd detect the slightest lag with that.

My PS2 is just connected through one of the S-Video inputs... I know my TV is capable of upconverting to 1080i, but isn't that only through the component video inputs? In any case, I honestly haven't play much Megaman on it yet... but I didn't notice any lag with Gundam vs. Z Gundam, We Love Katamari, Guitar Hero, or Onimusha: Dawn of Dreams, A.C.E 2, or Climax UC. which were the last few non-RPG games in my PS2. I'll play some Megaman later tonight and get back to you for sure.

[Gaijin]

PS---mike, the "lag issue" is AFAIK only when 480i is played on a HDTV--- upscaling the signal to 1080 is what delays it. Have you experimented with a standard PS2 signal to your TV? Like say the MegaMan collection on your DLP, I'm sure you'd detect the slightest lag with that.

My PS2 is just connected through one of the S-Video inputs... I know my TV is capable of upconverting to 1080i, but isn't that only through the component video inputs? In any case, I honestly haven't play much Megaman on it yet... but I didn't notice any lag with Gundam vs. Z Gundam, We Love Katamari, Guitar Hero, or Onimusha: Dawn of Dreams, A.C.E 2, or Climax UC. which were the last few non-RPG games in my PS2. I'll play some Megaman later tonight and get back to you for sure.

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Your TV converts whatever signal it receives to it's native res (720p prob) no matter what input you use. It will accept 1080i signal but even if you feed it a 1080i source like from a cable box through component or HDMI it will take the signal and display it whatever your TV's native res is. A 480i, 480p, signal will be "converted" (for lack of a better term) to 720p on your set.

[JB0]

PS---mike, the "lag issue" is AFAIK only when 480i is played on a HDTV--- upscaling the signal to 1080 is what delays it. Have you experimented with a standard PS2 signal to your TV? Like say the MegaMan collection on your DLP, I'm sure you'd detect the slightest lag with that.

My PS2 is just connected through one of the S-Video inputs... I know my TV is capable of upconverting to 1080i, but isn't that only through the component video inputs?

Any non-CRT set ALWAYS resamples.

DLP, LCD, and plasma are fixed-resolution technologies, so all images MUST be converted to their native resolution before display.

Feeding them an analog source compounds things, as it has to make a digital sampling of it first.

Not a problem as long as it does it nicely and does it in the same 60th of a second that the frame arrives.

[David Hingtgen]

From what I've read, it seems most HDTV's are designed to "look best on the showroom floor" so they spend multiple frames re-sampling and "tweaking" 480i inputs etc to catch people's eye. It makes no difference at all watching a movie or something so most people have no idea it's happening.

But for a game, the controllers (and you) will effectively be "behind" the game, since you see it on screen a moment later than the PS2 actually rendered it and expects button presses to match.

Straight upsampling/converting etc can be done in well less than a single frame, it's just that almost every HDTV is set NOT to do it that way, but to instead do all their well-advertised tweaks and sharpening first, which takes a frame or two. Or 15 in some cases. Some are just so fast at it that even with all that done they still do it fast enough to not make a difference, but others seem to spend a quarter-second "refining" the image before displaying it.

[JB0]

From what I've read, it seems most HDTV's are designed to "look best on the showroom floor" so they spend multiple frames re-sampling and "tweaking" 480i inputs etc to catch people's eye.  It makes no difference at all watching a movie or something so most people have no idea it's happening.

But for a game, the controllers (and you) will effectively be "behind" the game, since you see it on screen a moment later than the PS2 actually rendered it and expects button presses to match. 

Ahhhh, classic TV cons go high-tech.

Damn shame they won't just sell a TV that's properly calibrated, adjusted, and timed.

...

Of course, the mass market will shun it because it's too dim, not red enough, and lacking in definition(Read as "not way the heck too bright, red is in balance with everything else, and there's no retarded edge enhancement circuit mucking the image up beyond repair").

[mikeszekely]

Thank you for educating me, my friends. If you'll permit me one more question, the documentation with my TV says it supports 480p, 720p, and 1080i. If DLP TVs use a fixed resolution technology, which is it?

In any case, to assuage all our curiousities, I tried several games on my PS2 this evening, both in "Natural" setting (with the bars on each side) and "Theater Wide 1," a kind of widescreen display that stretches the picture gradually toward the edges, designed for displaying 4:3 signals in 16:9 with a minimal ammount of the top and bottom being cut off, and without very overt stretching. And, for the record, my TV is a Toshiba 52HM84, which was replaced a few months ago by the 52HM95.

Anyway, the games tested were:

We Love Katamari (4:3)

Megaman Anniversary Collection (Megaman 2) (4:3)

Megaman X Collection (Megaman X4) (4:3)

Guitar Hero (16:9)

Devil May Cry 3 (16:9)

Onimusha: Dawn of Dreams (16:9)

I assumed that, even though I hadn't noticed lag before, I might if I was actively looking for it. And I have to report that, in fact, I still didn't notice any lag. The only game that even remotely felt a little off to me was Megaman 2, but I think that has more to do with the way Atomic Planet rebuilt the game instead of simply emulating it, and even at that, I think it's only because I'd played the NES version probably more than 100 times. The game felt a little sluggish, but I noted that whenever I pressed a button, the corresponding action happened immediately. Megaman X4, which is the X series game I'd play the most, felt exactly as I'd remembered it. We Love Katamari and Onimusha just got played because I'd been playing them. But Devil May Cry 3, I picked for its twitchy action, and I didn't notice any lag there. And Guitar Hero, being a bemani game (even if it wasn't made by Japanese developers), relies on timing. Surely, if there was any lag, I'd notice it there, and I just flat out didn't.

My conclusion, then would be that whatever time my TV takes to take the video source and upconvert it before displaying it is fast enough to be, for all intents and purposes, nonexistant.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure if that info helps David, since he's already explained that a TV of that size is simply impossible for his situation, and that since Toshiba is outsourcing their CRTs, whatever Toshiba quality I'm seeing in my unit may not be applicable to a smaller CRT unit.

Of course, if someone else is poking around in this thread and is looking for a solid HDTV on a $2500 budget, by all means, get the 52HM95.

On a side note, my experimenting did leave me with one other conclusion... while all PS2 games look slightly worse for the wear upconverted and blown up onto my TV than they would on a solid 480i tube TV, some games suffer for it much worse than others. We Love Katamari and Guitar Heroes looked the best, perhaps because of their more simple graphics. And, believe it or not, Megaman X4 looked the worst. PSX sprites that blew my mind on the old 19" unit I had my PSX hooked up to back in the day were simply not meant to be cranked in 52" of upconverted glory.

[JB0]

Thank you for educating me, my friends.  If you'll permit me one more question, the documentation with my TV says it supports 480p, 720p, and 1080i.  If DLP TVs use a fixed resolution technology, which is it?

All of the above. The resolutions it supports isn't the same as it's native resolution.

I can't really guess as to the native resolution.

I assumed that, even though I hadn't noticed lag before, I might if I was actively looking for it.  And I have to report that, in fact, I still didn't notice any lag. 

HOORAY!

[Gaijin]

Mike, your TV has a native res of 720p. Most all fixed panels do nowadays with the odd 768p LCD every once in awhile and the brief flirtation with 480p EDTV's. Most CRT ones display at 1080i or 480p or both...some won't accept 720p too.

Even some of the "1080p" displays out there aren't "true" 1080p in that they will display all signals received at 1080p but won't accept a 1080p source believe it or not. Those looking for 1080p sets caveat emptor and make sure you get one that will accept it.

On a totally un-related note, as I was walking in Sears today, I browsed past the electrmics and noticed an elderly couple looking at an older EDTV LCD display and asking the salesperson what the real difference was...he said, oh, that's just like HDTV but it's 420p (yes four twenty...maybe he's a pothead) and it's almost just as good...it's "as sharp as DVD is". The woman looked at me as I laughed and then said..."he doesn't know what he's saying does he?".

The Tosh DLP's are good but have too few inputs for me. My Panny has 4 component inputs (yup, 4 though the new models have 3), one HDMI, 2 VGA, and 3 additional S-video/composite sets. Like Mike, no lag with any system. The ones with lag are usually DLP's (Samsungs are the major offender) but technically even a CRT HDTV can lag. Average lag is 6 frames, or 1/10th of a sec...some people won't notice but for games that are timing imperative (2D fighting is the quickest most noticeable of all and a good way to see if your TV lags) it can be bothersome to some degree. There are even timing/audio sync with some DVD players and some HDTV's...

Edited April 10, 2006 by Gaijin

[Oihan]

I have a friend who is a videophile and an audiophile. I too have been looking for a HD-TV (for gaming and watching HD TV), either 26in or 32in. He told me that good CRTs that size don't exist and that if I wanted that size I should look into LCDs. ThE only brand he recommended to me was the Sharp Aquous, for the picture quality and black levels. He also said that if I wanted to go bigger than that, 40+ inches, that I should look into Samsung's or Toshiba's DLPs. He also suggested I stay away from Sony for the quality of their TVs have gone nowhere but down. Here is also a really good place for information on audio and video equipment. My friend frequents there a lot and there seems to be quite a lot of 'gurus' there, if you will. Anyway, that's my two cents.

Edited April 11, 2006 by Oihan

[David Hingtgen]

AVSforum, while probably the best place to get info on specific TV's due to sheer membership (if you want to know how a TV is, there's probably 10 people who own it and have posted), is like Gamefaqs for the level of flame wars and personal vendettas and company fanboys that inhabit it. Tons of good info, but you've really got to sort through the junk and super-biased info.

Decided last night that I am going to buy a new TV stand, mainly so I can put my 360 behind a glass door and have it blow its exhaust on the dresser and not my GC cords. I will buy one big enough to take 30in widescreens (future proofing), with a completely open back for both cords and the 360's afterbuner...

Seriously, I need to get a thrust gauge and see how much power a 360's hot exhaust has, probably equal to a small R/C ducted fan...

[Ishimaru]

Not to get on anyone's bad side but DLP isnt that good, Im just pointing out since I was at Circuit City the other day and they had like 52' Flat Screen Setup with DLP and its adjusted badly. It looks like my Big Fat 50' Toshiba TV, Im just pointing out to anyone getting DLP as I prefer LCD. Plasma will leak in overuse or a few years and you probaly dont even have a warranty, mmm science class actualy taught me something.

[Uxi]

Plasmas pros are it's small footprint and vibrant colors. A little too vibrant. These are offset by hihg power costs, burn in concerns, and the fact that there's a definite (and relatively short) lifespan.

DLP is definitely not all it's cracked up to be. Rainbows and wobulation are just the chief flaws of the specific technology. The rest of it's relative negatives are what it shares with other rear projection (consumable high intensity bulbs, larger footprint - though not nearly as massive as CRT)

LCD is the poor cousin of HDTV as far as PQ. The only thing going for it as far as I see is it's tiny footprint.

That leaves LCoS. SXRD is the best PQ I've managed to see (as you might have seen if you've managed to catch the recent setups they've been doing, coupled with DVR with the full "Hawaii" loop). Just about every Cable / Sat HD feed is currently suffering from compression issues... HD-DVD/Blu-Ray should be marvelous to behold. Not much longer now... Far cheaper than plasmas of equivalent size and resolution... And then there's always JVC's D-ILA if you're on budget. Negatives: QC concerns (caused many companies to abandon it's efforts), but these seem largely anecdotal rather than fundamental to the technology. Also consumable bulbs and footprint, though these two are rather subjective.

SED looks like it could be killer. The footprint of LCD with the PQ of LCOS. That is if the endless delays and rescheduling coupled with the pluging prices of DLP and LCoS don't make SED anything other than the vaporhardware it might become. IMO, Toshiba should be backing SED far more than the effort it's put behind HD-DVD...

[Gaijin]

IMO, Toshiba should be backing SED far more than the effort it's put behind HD-DVD...

389823[/snapback]

Yes, but they're pride is causing them millions in a war even they were prepared to give up behind closed doors...MS and Intel convinced them otherwise(no big investment for MS...they want the format war and it will cost them next to nothing to take stabs at Sony through the next gen optical war).

For those who complain about black levels on rear projection LCD'd and DLP's...there are ways to "fix" that and give your display near tube quality blacks with none of the drawbacks.

Edited April 11, 2006 by Gaijin

[mikeszekely]

Not to get on anyone's bad side but DLP isnt that good, Im just pointing out since I was at Circuit City the other day and they had like 52' Flat Screen Setup with DLP and its adjusted badly.

So one particular poorly set up DLP TV at one particular Circuit City is representative of every make and model DLP on the market?

Hey guys, I saw a car with a COMBUSTION ENGINE up on blocks near my brother's place in the sticks. It was clearly poo, so all cars with combustion engines suck. Don't drive them.

Fact is, there are shitty DLPs and there are good ones... and even the best TVs look like ass when they're not set up right.

DLP is definitely not all it's cracked up to be. Rainbows and wobulation are just the chief flaws of the specific technology. The rest of it's relative negatives are what it shares with other rear projection (consumable high intensity bulbs, larger footprint - though not nearly as massive as CRT)

The rainbow effect is supposedly only noticed by a very small portion of the population. I've certainly never noticed any rainbows. I'm not sure what you mean by wobulation. As for the footprint, at 14" deep and about 80lbs, my 52" is both much shorter and much lighter than my old 27" Panasonic tube TV. Granted, you're not going to hang it on a wall, but for as long as I've lived, we've set our TVs on top of furniture. Seems silly to hold that against a particular tech.

I agree on the bulb thing, though, but who knows? Maybe I'll just get a new TV instead.

That leaves LCoS. SXRD is the best PQ I've managed to see

Oh, I agree there. My buddy's dad's more or less an invalid, and can't see real well. But since he can't move much, all he does is watch TV. So my buddy got him a 60" SXRD. First time I bought my Toshiba that I'd seen a TV in someone's house to make me jealous.

But SXRD wasn't really an option for me. When I bought my TV, LCoS TVs were just hitting the market. They were more expensive, and at that time, really didn't look much better than the newest DLP units.

[JB0]

Hey guys, I saw a car with a COMBUSTION ENGINE up on blocks near my brother's place in the sticks.  It was clearly poo, so all cars with combustion engines suck.  Don't drive them.

Darn right. The future is steam engines!

[David Hingtgen]

Well after my last 10-minute DOA 4 session (about all I can stand) I shut off my 360 and sent an email off to Microsoft. I just can't take the drive noise. However, I know from "life experience" that it's probably in the pitch range that 99% of people won't hear a THING and think I'm nuts. It really sucks that after 6 months, I finally find one----but can't play it because the drive is so irritating.

It's not the VOLUME of the sound, it's the sound itself. It's kind of in the background of the drive's buzz---a shrill whine, like a dentist's drill or a leaf blower. Not loud, but there, and at the exact pitch that just goes straight through your skull into your brain, that'll give you a headache.

It would suck most of all if they say there's nothing wrong with it, then I have $400 system I can't play.

I dredged up the dedicated 360 thread to ask people to comment on how their 360 drive sounds: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...ndpost&p=389920

Edited April 11, 2006 by David Hingtgen

[Uxi]

What the... ? When did animated avatars get prohibited?

I only notice the sound during startup. I do sit between 9 and 12 feet away, though (It's an L-shaped couch opposite my SXRD... apex/corner is the farthest, of course).