Aircraft Vs Super Thread! 2

[Lynx7725]

Makes you wonder exactly how capable those Alicats are, no?

[Phalanx]

Damn, I had no idea the Iranians were trying to refurbish their Tomcats by doing that. After all, they have the original A models that haven't received a huge update in the past 30 years. So I can pretty much imagine that they are going through great lengths just to make their fighters more effective against cuurent aircraft.

404728[/snapback]

The Iranians have been trying various re-fit programmes on their Tomcats since the Iran/Iraq War. The May issue of Combat Aircraft Magazine has a pretty in depth article on the IRIAF written by Tom Cooper. Apparently the Iranians have been able to rig a new launch rail to allow carriage of the AA-11 missiles they bought with their Mig-29s. They've also done extensive re-fits to the avionics, replacing most of the AWG-9s analogue components with digital ones.

404783[/snapback]

If you ask me, I wouldn't dare modify the avionics or airframe of any aircraft unless I knew the anatomy of a fighter intimately. I wouldn't risk making those modifications for fear that I may mess up the aircraft. But then again, due to the fact they lack spare parts to further maintenacne them and that was what grounded them for so long, I can see why they were truly desperate to make them effecttive. I'm sure tthey know what their doing and fully aware of the risks though. But then again, those Alicat's would't stand a chance our aircraft. I wonder if they managed to get one fully operational variant yet. However, I honestly think it's starnge but interesting seeing an American aircraft being retrofitted with russian engines like the Saturn L'yulka WS-10 engines, however their new enignes they;ve been trying to install in their Alicats' would make it easy to tell that it's not American since Russian engine turbines spin a little differently than AMerican engines, if I recall.

Edited June 2, 2006 by Phalanx

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Damn, I had no idea the Iranians were trying to refurbish their Tomcats by doing that. After all, they have the original A models that haven't received a huge update in the past 30 years. So I can pretty much imagine that they are going through great lengths just to make their fighters more effective against cuurent aircraft.

404728[/snapback]

The Iranians have been trying various re-fit programmes on their Tomcats since the Iran/Iraq War. The May issue of Combat Aircraft Magazine has a pretty in depth article on the IRIAF written by Tom Cooper. Apparently the Iranians have been able to rig a new launch rail to allow carriage of the AA-11 missiles they bought with their Mig-29s. They've also done extensive re-fits to the avionics, replacing most of the AWG-9s analogue components with digital ones.

404783[/snapback]

If you ask me, I wouldn't dare modify the avionics or airframe of any aircraft unless I knew the anatomy of a fighter intimately. I wouldn't risk making those modifications for fear that I may mess up the aircraft. I'm sure tthey know what their doing and fully aware of the risks though. But then again, those Alicat's would't stand a chance our aircraft. I wonder if they managed to get one fully operational variant yet. However, I honestly think it's starnge but interesting seeing an American aircraft being retrofitted with russian engines like the Saturn L'yulka WS-10 engines, however their new enignes they;ve been trying to install in their Alicats' would make it easy to tell that it's not American since Russian engine turbines spin a little differently than AMerican engines, if I recall.

404806[/snapback]

THe russian engine retrofit was all rumor. No they have not gained any Tomcat variant other than the A. Yes they know the aircraft intimately well, they did have the USN there in the late 70s to help out with the tomcat program and I heard they have a program to reverse engineer the parts they need and for the TF-30's that they have. Not to mention the Iranians were used to helping themselves out with their earlier planes, you have to remember this used to be the world's 4th largest airforce and one of the most powerful in the mideast till the mid 80s.

[kalvasflam]

I wonder why the US doesn't just sell older parts to the Iranians openly... heh heh. Politics aside, it will be a nice move. Heck, even with politics it'll be a nice move.

Let's face it, it will mean exactly one thing:

Money for whichever corporation is selling the parts and retrofits. If there was ever a war, those Alicats are toast. The technology such as it is in those Alicats will be at least a generation old. It'll be fun to watch those things.

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

I wonder why the US doesn't just sell older parts to the Iranians openly...  heh heh.  Politics aside, it will be a nice move.  Heck, even with politics it'll be a nice move.

Let's face it, it will mean exactly one thing:

Money for whichever corporation is selling the parts and retrofits.  If there was ever a war, those Alicats are toast.  The technology such as it is in those Alicats will be at least a generation old.  It'll be fun to watch those things.

404841[/snapback]

Because no politician will risk his neck like that. If one of those planes shot down a US fighter because some politician authorised the sale of new seat covers for the Alicats, you can bet they'll never hear the end of it.

[Nied]

If you ask me, I wouldn't dare modify the avionics or airframe of any aircraft unless I knew the anatomy of a fighter intimately. I wouldn't risk making those modifications for fear that I may mess up the aircraft. But then again, due to the fact they lack spare parts to further maintenacne them and that was what grounded them for so long, I can see why they were truly desperate to make them effecttive. I'm sure tthey know what their doing and fully aware of the risks though. But then again, those Alicat's would't stand a chance our aircraft. I wonder if they managed to get one fully operational variant yet. However, I honestly think it's starnge but interesting seeing an American aircraft being retrofitted with russian engines like the Saturn L'yulka WS-10 engines, however their new enignes they;ve been trying to install in their Alicats' would make it easy to tell that it's not American since Russian engine turbines spin a little differently than AMerican engines, if I recall.

404806[/snapback]

Current estimates have the IRIAF with 30-40 operational F-14s, with estimates saying anywhere from 1/2 to 2/3rds being in operational condition at any one time. They've had some 30 years of tearing apart and re-assembling their Tomcats (in the middle of a war no less) to get intimately familiar with them. Iran by necessity has developed quite a robust Aerospace industry. They're now building an indigenous dogfight missile called Fatter (basically an AIM-9P with a locally designed seeker head), and there's credible reports that they've been able to reverse engineer and build Phoenix missiles for their Tomcats. They've also re-built most of their F-5s into F-5B trainers (despite never having purchased that aircraft), and have built a prototype twin engined fighter as a possible replacement for their F-5s, Mirage F-1s and Chinese J-7s.

As Shin pointed out installing Russian engines into their F-14s was just a rumor, there are plenty of photographs showing recently refitted IRIAF Tomcats with TF-30s. And the Saturn Lyulka is the AL-31F. The WS-10 is a Chinese engine in the same size and thrust class as the Lyulka, GE F110, and PW F100.

[Phalanx]

  They're now building an indigenous dogfight missile called Fatter (basically an AIM-9P with a locally designed seeker head), and there's credible reports that they've been able to reverse engineer and build Phoenix missiles for their Tomcats.  They've also re-built most of their F-5s into F-5B trainers (despite never having purchased that aircraft), and have built a prototype twin engined fighter as a possible replacement for their F-5s, Mirage F-1s and Chinese J-7s.

Funny you mention them reverse engineering the Pheonix missle because the Russians actually purchased an Alicat along with it's set of pheonix missles to do the same thing as the MIG-31 was actually inspired the cat's Pheonix missle system and during the heyday of the MIG-31 it seemed like a suitable equal to the F-14 since it's R-33S missles were the Russian counterpart of American Pheonix missles. However, if that was the case with the F-14, how come the Iranians chose not to purchase a small number of MIG-31B's, MIG-31M,MIG-31FE, OR MIG-31BM's for that matter back then, as they had seemingly formidable updates to their avionics? I mean this would have saved them many man hours of testing and reverse engineering the original F-14s they have as these new Foxhound variants have modern avionics to start off with than their Alicats. If the Iranians were to hypothetically have either one of these variants, preferably the Foxhound M or FE, the only modifications they would have to do is probably give the aircraft analogue flight controlls and probably add their "Fatter" missles to them.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

  They're now building an indigenous dogfight missile called Fatter (basically an AIM-9P with a locally designed seeker head), and there's credible reports that they've been able to reverse engineer and build Phoenix missiles for their Tomcats.  They've also re-built most of their F-5s into F-5B trainers (despite never having purchased that aircraft), and have built a prototype twin engined fighter as a possible replacement for their F-5s, Mirage F-1s and Chinese J-7s.

Funny you mention them reverse engineering the Pheonix missle because the Russians actually purchased an Alicat along with it's set of pheonix missles to do the same thing as the MIG-31 was actually inspired the cat's Pheonix missle system and during the heyday of the MIG-31 it seemed like a suitable equal to the F-14 since it's R-33S missles were the Russian counterpart of American Pheonix missles. However, if that was the case with the F-14, how come the Iranians chose not to purchase a small number of MIG-31B's, MIG-31M,MIG-31FE, OR MIG-31BM's for that matter back then, as they had seemingly formidable updates to their avionics? I mean this would have saved them many man hours of testing and reverse engineering the original F-14s they have as these new Foxhound variants have modern avionics to start off with than their Alicats. If the Iranians were to hypothetically have either one of these variants, preferably the Foxhound M or FE, the only modifications they would have to do is probably give the aircraft analogue flight controlls and probably add their "Fatter" missles to them.

404900[/snapback]

Russians purchased an Ali cat? Nope, proved to be BS.

[kalvasflam]

I wonder why the US doesn't just sell older parts to the Iranians openly...  heh heh.  Politics aside, it will be a nice move.  Heck, even with politics it'll be a nice move.

Let's face it, it will mean exactly one thing:

Money for whichever corporation is selling the parts and retrofits.  If there was ever a war, those Alicats are toast.  The technology such as it is in those Alicats will be at least a generation old.  It'll be fun to watch those things.

404841[/snapback]

Because no politician will risk his neck like that. If one of those planes shot down a US fighter because some politician authorised the sale of new seat covers for the Alicats, you can bet they'll never hear the end of it.

404889[/snapback]

That was of course a bit of a rhetorical question in the first place. But the reality of the situation ends up being that the Iranians are gonna get their black market parts anyway. In the grand scheme of things, ignoring the idiot politics involved, the strategy is about keeping your enemies close to you. You know their capabilities, so that when the time comes, you can ream them. It's always a battle between the known and the unknown. But of course, politics tend to throw everything out of whack.

[Phalanx]

Nevermind that rumor about Russia obtaining and reverse engineering the Pheonix missle and me insiting that the Iranians should purchase those foxhounds,. I remember the Iranians saying that they wanted by the Tomcats was so they can intercept those annoying Foxbats that kept invading their airspace. The funny thing about this is that since Iran was rich due to it's robust amount of oil they sold for foreign exports, they also could have ordered the F-15 Eagles to boost their interception capabilities but I don't know why they chose not to buy those as well. They also bought a shatload of F-5'S, F-4D's and the P-3 Orions to increase theri airforce as SHin pointed out that the IRIAF was the most powerful airforce in the mid-east as a result of their mass purcahsing of these advanced warplanes at the time.

[Nied]

Funny you mention them reverse engineering the Pheonix missle because the Russians actually purchased an Alicat along with it's set of pheonix missles to do the same thing as the MIG-31 was actually inspired the cat's Pheonix missle system and during the heyday of the MIG-31 it seemed like a suitable equal to the F-14 since it's R-33S missles were the Russian counterpart of American Pheonix missles. However, if that was the case with the F-14, how come the Iranians chose not to purchase a small number of MIG-31B's, MIG-31M,MIG-31FE, OR MIG-31BM's for that matter back then, as they had seemingly formidable updates to their avionics? I mean this would have saved them many man hours of testing and reverse engineering the original F-14s they have as these new Foxhound variants have modern avionics to start off with than their Alicats. If the Iranians were to hypothetically  have either one of these variants, preferably the Foxhound M or FE, the only modifications they would have to do is probably give the aircraft analogue flight controlls and probably add their "Fatter" missles to them.

404900[/snapback]

Shin again beats me to the punch again. The Iranians didn't have good relations with the Russians until the early '90s, well after the Mig-31 and it's various systems were developed. Further the Iranians indignantly deny selling their precious Tomcats to the Russians, and the engineers who worked on the Mig-31 indignantly deny basing their premier air defense fighter on anything but their own good work. Remember during the time Iran was supposed to have sold these Tomcats the Russians were busy selling state of the art weapons to their mortal enemy, Iraq.

Interestingly the article I mentioned above notes that the Russians actually did try to sell the IRIAF several squadrons of Mig-31s as replacements for their F-14s. Iran apparently turned down the offer because of a combination of cost, poor techincal support from Russia, and the Foxhound was judged to have inferior close range performance compared to the Tomcat.

[Skull Leader]

Nevermind that rumor about Russia obtaining and reverse engineering the Pheonix missle and me insiting that the Iranians should purchase those foxhounds,. I remember the Iranians saying that they wanted by the Tomcats was so they can intercept those annoying Foxbats that kept invading their airspace. The funny thing about this is that since Iran was rich due to it's robust amount of oil they sold for foreign exports, they also could have ordered the F-15 Eagles to boost their interception capabilities but I don't know why they chose not to buy those as well. They also bought a shatload of F-5'S, F-4D's  and the P-3 Orions to increase theri airforce as SHin pointed out that the IRIAF was the most powerful airforce in the mid-east as a result of their mass purcahsing of these advanced warplanes at the time.

404909[/snapback]

you're forgetting F-4Es also. Iran is one of two nations left in the world flying F-4Ds (South Korea being the other)

They never sold a tomcat to Russia, and the rumors about an Iranian pilot defecting with his plane were later debunked. We have no reason to believe Russia has any tomcats.

They have tinkered with a number of indigenous upgrade programs, even one with the possibility of implementing a full-glass cockpit (digital displays), but nothing has come of it yet. Their tomcats are VERY well maintained and shouldn't be discounted so easily. They have learned to produce most of their own spare parts, but evidently a few things still elude them.

Also, I'm very leery of anything written by Tom Cooper. He's the only one who can claim to have any evidence backing up his theories (such as the infamous 3-MiG kill by one phoenix missile). While I believe US estimates of their tomcat strength are possibly on the conservative side (an intelligence briefing held on January 1st cited approximately twenty working tomcats with possibly another dozen airframes that are being switched out with some minor parts swapping), I don't think Tom's estimate of 50-60 tomcats is any more accurate. The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

Edited June 2, 2006 by Skull Leader

[Nied]

The article in Combat Aircraft mentions that he bases that on the number of different BuNo.s visible in the various photographs and videos of the refit Ali-Cats. This doesn't take into account that 1) It's awfully easy to mis-read those little numbers painted down on the engines (often cast in shadow) accurately and 2) The IRIAF has paint and number stencils. One of the interesting inconsistencies in the article is the claim that the IRIAF is indeed flying Tomcats with the AIM-23 Sedji missile based on the Hawk SAM. This despite the fact that he claimed in "Iranian Tomcats in Action," that the AIM-23 programme was a complete failure and abandoned in the early '80s. Generally speaking unless he has photographic proof I tend to take his claims with a grain of salt.

Edited June 2, 2006 by Nied

[Mislovrit]

in the past year alone we've caught at least 10 people/companies trying to smuggle parts to the Iranians for their Tomcats. It's still a huge concern.

404704[/snapback]

Wonder if Cheney would've done the same thing to the F-15 had the Shah brought it instead of the F-14.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Nevermind that rumor about Russia obtaining and reverse engineering the Pheonix missle and me insiting that the Iranians should purchase those foxhounds,. I remember the Iranians saying that they wanted by the Tomcats was so they can intercept those annoying Foxbats that kept invading their airspace. The funny thing about this is that since Iran was rich due to it's robust amount of oil they sold for foreign exports, they also could have ordered the F-15 Eagles to boost their interception capabilities but I don't know why they chose not to buy those as well. They also bought a shatload of F-5'S, F-4D's  and the P-3 Orions to increase theri airforce as SHin pointed out that the IRIAF was the most powerful airforce in the mid-east as a result of their mass purcahsing of these advanced warplanes at the time.

404909[/snapback]

He never ordered the F-15. There was a flyoff between the 2 and he apparently had wanted the Tomcat all along and the fly off proved nothing. He felt the Tomcat was the superior plane. And he and his air force wanted it more. You have to remember as well, the Shah was a fighter pilot, not just some figure head who was getting advice from his politicians and military.

I think he did order F-16's but by that time the revolution was in the midst of occuring and so was the later embargo.

The whole rumor about a defecting ali cat stems from when a tomcat was flown to iraq and I think the crew wanted to live in exile outside of Iran. The Us pilots didn't want to fly the airframe back to the US so it and 2 phantoms were dismantled in Iraq(pilots were skeptical of the condition). The US and CIA were the ones doing this. This was during the Iran Iraq war and at the time the US was supporting Iraq.

[Phalanx]

Nevermind that rumor about Russia obtaining and reverse engineering the Pheonix missle and me insiting that the Iranians should purchase those foxhounds,. I remember the Iranians saying that they wanted by the Tomcats was so they can intercept those annoying Foxbats that kept invading their airspace. The funny thing about this is that since Iran was rich due to it's robust amount of oil they sold for foreign exports, they also could have ordered the F-15 Eagles to boost their interception capabilities but I don't know why they chose not to buy those as well. They also bought a shatload of F-5'S, F-4D's  and the P-3 Orions to increase theri airforce as SHin pointed out that the IRIAF was the most powerful airforce in the mid-east as a result of their mass purcahsing of these advanced warplanes at the time.

404909[/snapback]

He never ordered the F-15. There was a flyoff between the 2 and he apparently had wanted the Tomcat all along and the fly off proved nothing. He felt the Tomcat was the superior plane. And he and his air force wanted it more. You have to remember as well, the Shah was a fighter pilot, not just some figure head who was getting advice from his politicians and military.

I think he did order F-16's but by that time the revolution was in the midst of occuring and so was the later embargo.

The whole rumor about a defecting ali cat stems from when a tomcat was flown to iraq and I think the crew wanted to live in exile outside of Iran. The Us pilots didn't want to fly the airframe back to the US so it and 2 phantoms were dismantled in Iraq(pilots were skeptical of the condition). The US and CIA were the ones doing this. This was during the Iran Iraq war and at the time the US was supporting Iraq.

404969[/snapback]

That I know of course and you are right about the US and CIA dismantling the fighters but you forgot to add that Grumman technicans and Iranian technicians that were friendly to U.S had actually sabotaged the Pheonix missle systems of all the Alicats so they can be rendered inoperable to Iranian pilots as well as the guidance systems but the AWG-9 radar was still intact. They never used any Pheonix missles when the Iran-Iraq war started. However, the Alicats were never effecitive as part of the IRIAF since they were only able to maintain a small number of them. Due to their essential value to the IRIAF, some alicats were given frequent mini-AWACS roles to patrol their airspace since their radars were very powerful and they did not want to send them in combat. I think the reason why the Alicats were ineffective IMHO was because I think the pilots didn't clock in enough flighttime to get a formidale amount of experience. I don't know how much hours of flight time they put in but I think this was the reason why they were ineffective. The severe lack of parts for the Alicats resulted in the IRIAF having to canibalize a small number of their Alicats (15-20 estimated by the Western Intel) so they can keep them flying and have the remaining 50 or 55 used for spare part holders.

After all, when Ayatollah Khomeinghi was in power and placed a nationwide embargo on western arms, the IRIAF's most essential weapon they coveted, the Pheonix missle, was never delivered to them as they requested 400 Pheonix missles and the severe lack of parts to maintenance the Alicats were what grounded most of the ALicats. As a result, the U.S reciprocalized by cutting ties with Iran. I think the reason why they wanted to try to order as much AIM-54's as they can was due to the fact that since I think the pilots were inexperienced at dogfighting, they could use the Pheonix missles o take out the Foxbats from a distance since it would save them trouble of having to wait til' they came into visual range and try to engage them via dogfighting. But then again I think that MOST of these pilots were never any good at dogfighting and that wouldn't make any difference anyway cause during the conflict, airpower wasn't essential in trying to gain an advantage over each other because both sides didn't know how to use their air force effectively and strategically. Even though dogfighting was very rare throughout the course of the war, the Iraqi's seemed to have won most of the air batteles as the Iranians lost most of them due to the fact that their pilots had more training flightime and had advanced French arms like the Etendard and Mirage F-1C armed with the Matra R-550 Magic missle.

Edited June 3, 2006 by Phalanx

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Nevermind that rumor about Russia obtaining and reverse engineering the Pheonix missle and me insiting that the Iranians should purchase those foxhounds,. I remember the Iranians saying that they wanted by the Tomcats was so they can intercept those annoying Foxbats that kept invading their airspace. The funny thing about this is that since Iran was rich due to it's robust amount of oil they sold for foreign exports, they also could have ordered the F-15 Eagles to boost their interception capabilities but I don't know why they chose not to buy those as well. They also bought a shatload of F-5'S, F-4D's  and the P-3 Orions to increase theri airforce as SHin pointed out that the IRIAF was the most powerful airforce in the mid-east as a result of their mass purcahsing of these advanced warplanes at the time.

404909[/snapback]

He never ordered the F-15. There was a flyoff between the 2 and he apparently had wanted the Tomcat all along and the fly off proved nothing. He felt the Tomcat was the superior plane. And he and his air force wanted it more. You have to remember as well, the Shah was a fighter pilot, not just some figure head who was getting advice from his politicians and military.

I think he did order F-16's but by that time the revolution was in the midst of occuring and so was the later embargo.

The whole rumor about a defecting ali cat stems from when a tomcat was flown to iraq and I think the crew wanted to live in exile outside of Iran. The Us pilots didn't want to fly the airframe back to the US so it and 2 phantoms were dismantled in Iraq(pilots were skeptical of the condition). The US and CIA were the ones doing this. This was during the Iran Iraq war and at the time the US was supporting Iraq.

404969[/snapback]

That I know of course and you are right about the US and CIA dismantling the fighters but you forgot to add that Grumman technicans and Iranian technicians that were friendly to U.S had actually sabotaged the Pheonix missle systems of all the Alicats so they can be rendered inoperable to Iranian pilots as well as the guidance systems but the AWG-9 radar was still intact. They never used any Pheonix missles when the Iran-Iraq war started. However, the Alicats were never effecitive as part of the IRIAF since they were only able to maintain a small number of them. Due to their essential value to the IRIAF, some alicats were given frequent mini-AWACS roles to patrol their airspace since their radars were very powerful and they did not want to send them in combat. I think the reason why the Alicats were ineffective IMHO was because I think the pilots didn't clock in enough flighttime to get a formidale amount of experience. I don't know how much hours of flight time they put in but I think this was the reason why they were ineffective. The severe lack of parts for the Alicats resulted in the IRIAF having to canibalize a small number of their Alicats (15-20 estimated by the Western Intel) so they can keep them flying and have the remaining 50 or 55 used for spare part holders.

After all, when Ayatollah Khomeinghi was in power and placed a nationwide embargo on western arms, the IRIAF's most essential weapon they coveted, the Pheonix missle, was never delivered to them as they requested 400 Pheonix missles and the severe lack of parts to maintenance the Alicats were what grounded most of the ALicats. As a result, the U.S reciprocalized by cutting ties with Iran. I think the reason why they wanted to try to order as much AIM-54's as they can was due to the fact that since I think the pilots were inexperienced at dogfighting, they could use the Pheonix missles o take out the Foxbats from a distance since it would save them trouble of having to wait til' they came into visual range and try to engage them via dogfighting. But then again I think that MOST of these pilots were never any good at dogfighting and that wouldn't make any difference anyway cause during the conflict, airpower wasn't essential in trying to gain an advantage over each other because both sides didn't know how to use their air force effectively and strategically. Even though dogfighting was very rare throughout the course of the war, the Iraqi's seemed to have won most of the air batteles as the Iranians lost most of them due to the fact that their pilots had more training flightime and had advanced French arms like the Etendard and Mirage F-1C armed with the Matra R-550 Magic missle.

404993[/snapback]

Nope.

When the Iran and Iraq war started the alicats got a lot of kills with the phoenix. It may not be as much as Tom Cooper says but it is substantial. And INEXPERIENCED@dogfighting?

WHAT?!

Uhm guys...care to explain to phalanx?

Anyways.....I don't know where the hell you are gettin the info mixed up but the Iranians seemed to have slaughtered the Iraqi Air Force many times in the war. I am not sure who had the overall winning tally but the Iraqi's only started catching up once they had the Mirage F1.

Your logic is flawed, dogfighting does matter and it sure as hell did in the IRIAF's case. Hell most of the kills I have read about were close in. Tell the Israreli's that their dogfighting skills didn't matter in the Bekaa valley. Not sure if its even applicable.

[Phalanx]

Uhm guys...care to explain to phalanx? 

Anyways.....I don't know where the hell you are gettin the info mixed up but the Iranians seemed to have slaughtered the Iraqi Air Force many times in the war.  I am not sure who had the overall winning tally but the Iraqi's only started catching up once they had the Mirage F1.

Your logic is flawed, dogfighting does matter and it sure as hell did in the IRIAF's case. Hell most of the kills I have read about were close in.  Tell the Israreli's that their dogfighting skills didn't matter in the Bekaa valley.  Not sure if its even applicable.

405002[/snapback]

Excuse me,Shin are you disrespecting me for that matter? FYII got it from here

http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_us/f014.html

You tell me to read up on information about things like you recommended me to do so I can stop asking newbie questions and this is sort respect I get back in return? How ironic! And this is why I choose not to argue with you guys, because you guys know more than I do and I don't want to get no flame war started but I think you might have provoked me, but apparently my super open-mindedness is not paying off here. It feels that each time I try to give my knowledge on some things yo guys always seem to think I making this poo up. I don't think you guys are making this stuff up so why do you act like this to me? I just think it's downright hypocrtical of you to say this when I know you're just as gulity as me of doing the same. I mean Jesus Christ, you sound all stuck up with that tone you came at me with in your previous post.

Edited June 3, 2006 by Phalanx

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Uhm guys...care to explain to phalanx? 

Anyways.....I don't know where the hell you are gettin the info mixed up but the Iranians seemed to have slaughtered the Iraqi Air Force many times in the war.  I am not sure who had the overall winning tally but the Iraqi's only started catching up once they had the Mirage F1.

Your logic is flawed, dogfighting does matter and it sure as hell did in the IRIAF's case. Hell most of the kills I have read about were close in.  Tell the Israreli's that their dogfighting skills didn't matter in the Bekaa valley.  Not sure if its even applicable.

405002[/snapback]

Shin are you disrespecting me for that matter? FYII got it from here

http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_us/f014.html

You tell me to read up on information about things like you recommended me to do so I can stop asking newbie questions and this is sort respect I get back in return? How ironic! And this is why I choose not to argue with you guys, because you guys know more than I do and I don't want to get no flame war started but I think you might have provoked me, but apparently my super open-mindedness is not paying off here.

405004[/snapback]

Uhm no I am not disrespecting you. Phalanx if you are going to read up on a subject, cross reference with MULTIPLE sources. The site you linked sounds a lot like the info given by the sites who said the ali cat wasn't worth anything in the war, when there is a ton of sources that say otherwise. It sounds like stuff that the pro airforce/anti navy and pro super hornet crowd tend to fling around with tomcat debates.

For you to say that the Iranians were inexperienced in dogfighting is wrong. Those pilots had a ton of experience in F-5's and F-4's. They were also US trained. Read stuff like@ACIG.org for starters. Look at the kills list. ACIG is not the most reliable but it has a lot more info specific to that war than the one site you just linked. Go to Tomcat sunset.org. Check sites like those out. If you go to tomcat sunset.org you might find all the info you will ever need. But don't bug them. That and read up on books on the tomcat. You say we know more than you do. Thats because prior to joining this forum most of us were already diehard aviation fans who like me, read military aviation books as a hobby on a weekly if not daily basis.

I don't think the number of tomcat kills is as high as Tom Cooper tends to estimate, nor do I think it is as low as the CIA and DOD like to say, nor as low as the Iranian govt tends to say either. I think the Tomcat most likely by all the evidence provided had a lot of kills, thing is with assasinations and lack of contact with governments, the actual kill tallies may forever be shrouded in mystery.

And don't start a flame war its not worth it. If you do it'd be over nothing really.

[Phalanx]

Uhm no I am not disrespecting you. Phalanx if you are going to read up on a subject, cross reference with MULTIPLE sources. The site you linked sounds a lot like the info given by the sites who said the ali cat wasn't worth anything in the war, when there is a ton of sources that say otherwise. It sounds like stuff that the pro airforce/anti navy and pro super hornet crowd tend to fling around with tomcat debates.

"Thats what I do! I read up on information from various websites watch various TV programs about military aircraft when I get the chance on either TLC, the Military Channel, the History Channel and wherever else."

For you to say that the Iranians were inexperienced in dogfighting is wrong. Those pilots had a ton of experience in F-5's and F-4's. They were also US trained. Read stuff like@ACIG.org for starters. Look at the kills list. ACIG is not the most reliable but it has a lot more info specific to that war than the one site you just linked. Go to Tomcat sunset.org. Check sites like those out. If you go to tomcat sunset.org you might find all the info you will ever need. But don't bug them. That and read up on books on the tomcat. You say we know more than you do. Thats because prior to joining this forum most of us were already diehard aviation fans who like me, read military aviation books as a hobby on a weekly if not daily basis.

"I said I THINK they were inexperienced, I wasn't sure."

I don't think the number of tomcat kills is as high as Tom Cooper tends to estimate, nor do I think it is as low as the CIA and DOD like to say, nor as low as the Iranian govt tends to say either. I think the Tomcat most likely by all the evidence provided had a lot of kills, thing is with assasinations and lack of contact with governments, the actual kill tallies may forever be shrouded in mystery.

And don't start a flame war its not worth it. If you do it'd be over nothing really.

" I won't, next time don't provoke me to so by disrespectingn me in the smallest way OK?"

[Nied]

Phalanx calm down. Shin wasn't disrespecting you. You have to realize that the info you posted confidently has been discredited. I don't even recognize the site you have there. Not all sources are created equal, and some can be wildly off base. Shin posted some good sources of reliable info on this subject, you might want to read up on them. Also it might be good to pick up a copy of the book Iranian F-14 Tomcat Units in Combat by Tom Cooper. TLC and the military channel are good sources for footage but most of what they say is utter crap. I'd recomend you visit the sites we mention here, or go to your local bookstore and pick up a couple of issues of magazines like Air International or Combat Aircraft. They're loaded with info and are a very cheap way to learn stuff you can't find online. Back when I lived in your area I'd go to the Borders in the White Flint mall, read through a bunch of the aircraft books there then pick up a copy of AI or CA. That's a little out of your way but I'd be genuinely surprised if you couldn't find a decent Borders or Barnes and Noble in College Park.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Uhm no I am not disrespecting you.  Phalanx if you are going to read up on a subject, cross reference with MULTIPLE sources.  The site you linked sounds a lot like the info given by the sites who said the ali cat wasn't worth anything in the war, when there is a ton of sources that say otherwise.  It sounds like stuff that the pro airforce/anti navy and pro super hornet crowd tend to fling around with tomcat debates. 

"Thats what I do! I read up on information from various websites watch various TV programs about military aircraft when I get the chance on either TLC, the Military Channel, the History Channel and wherever else."

For you to say that the Iranians were inexperienced in dogfighting is wrong. Those pilots had a ton of experience in F-5's and F-4's.  They were also US trained.  Read stuff like@ACIG.org for starters. Look at the kills list. ACIG is not the most reliable but it has a lot more info specific to that war than the one site you just linked.  Go to Tomcat sunset.org.  Check sites like those out.  If you go to tomcat sunset.org you might find all the info you will ever need. But don't bug them. That and read up on books on the tomcat.  You say we know more than you do.  Thats because prior to joining this forum most of us were already diehard aviation fans who like me, read military aviation books as a hobby on a weekly if not daily basis. 

"I said I THINK they were inexperienced, I wasn't sure."

I don't think the number of tomcat kills is as high as Tom Cooper tends to estimate, nor do I think it is as low as the CIA and DOD like to say, nor as low as the Iranian govt tends to say either.  I think the Tomcat most likely by all the evidence provided had a lot of kills, thing is with assasinations and lack of contact with governments, the actual kill tallies may forever be shrouded in mystery.

And don't start a flame war its not worth it.  If you do it'd be over nothing really.

" I won't, next time don't provoke me to so by disrespectingn me in the smallest way OK?"

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Smallest way? I wasn't even provoking you, you were just taking what I said too seriously.

BTW a lot of the info on the TV and all is wrong or very very biased.

Anyways.

Any of you guys think the YF-23 could be made into the naval successor to the Super Bug? Its large, might have a lot of growth potential, is stealth, and faster than the super bug and presumably has longer range. Stealth, longer range, and speed and possible growth potential tell me this bird might be a viable bug replacement in the next 15-20 years.

[Phalanx]

I think the YF-23 could be made into a suitable replacement for the Horny Horn sometime in the next 20 years or so. I'm surpised Grumman hasn't consider that earlier but then again I don't think the NAVY determines what fighter can be optimized for naval use. After all, the USAF has the F-22 as a replacement for their F-15's so why can't the NAVY have a stealth aircraft like the Blackwidow. Like I said earlier, the Blackwidow would pass for a perfect fighter/bomber due to it's design aesthetics though IMHO. I think one prototype could be operational in six to eight months hypothetically.

[David Hingtgen]

Just FYI, http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_us/f014.html is one of a zillion sites that repost/store/copy/steal Joe Baugher's work. Can never tell if he wants his stuff on a particular site or not. His actual site is here: http://home.att.net/%7Ejbaugher/ He's got the most complete list of serial/bureau numbers, period. Note however, that a lot of his stuff is direct quotes/paraphrasing from World Air Power Journal. Actually a lot of EVERYTHING about jets on the web is originally referenced from World Air Power Journal.

A complete set of World Air Power Journals would be the best reference for military jets, period. I have most of them. They're worth their weight in gold.

As for a YF-23---not as a Hornet replacement. They'd want a Hornet replacement to carry everything and anything, and a YF-23 couldn't do that. Not internally at least. It could replace any pure fighter, but will never be as multi-role as a F-16/18. A few small bombs does not a bomber make. (See F-22---it can replace the F-117 since the F-117 has such a limited and specific payload---but it can't replace the F-16C Block 40)

Edited June 3, 2006 by David Hingtgen

[Skull Leader]

The Iranian Air Force made lunchmeat out of the Iraqi airforce, and Tomcats saw surprisingly little of the frontline action (they worked mostly hand in hand with their E-3 as part of an early-warning net) Pretty much every encounter at the border led to the Iraqi MiGs running back across the border in hopes that they could lure the Iranians into SAM traps. It was the Iranian's ballgame for the entire duration. What's more, the Iraqis finally decided that their air force was too precious an asset to lose, and so moved their entire MiG force to the western side of the nation at ONE airbase (H-3). The Iranians promptly sent a flight of Phantoms to level the place, pretty much reducing most of their MiGs to so much scrap metal.

Edited June 3, 2006 by Skull Leader

[Skull Leader]

  A few small bombs does not a bomber make.  (See F-22---it can replace the F-117 since the F-117 has such a limited and specific payload---but it can't replace the F-16C Block 40)

405046[/snapback]

Well, it can drop most JDAMs and CBUs.... that's the lions share of what the USAF seems interested in dropping these days. I understand that there's other stuff though.

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

Since the Rhino is giving away on the stealth department by having external stores anyway, if you let a production F-23 hang stuff from its wings when necessary, the damn bird should be able to haul major truckloads of bombs thanks to its greater lifting area and thrust.

It'll still be faster then the Rhino and when you are not hanging stuff off the wings, it becomes a$$-kick fighter #1 again.

I am sure having the attachment points for external pylons would complicate a million and one things as well as affect the stealth factor even in pylons-removed mode but my point is that it'll probably still beat the Rhino in every parameter even with all the trade-offs.

Besides, you need a Grumman bird on the carriers. Whats with Boeing everything these days. I am not forgiving them for re-naming all that stuff!

Edited June 3, 2006 by Retracting Head Ter Ter

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Externally perhaps the YF-23 could carry the bombload of an A-6? If so it would be a good plane to take the true place of both the F-14D and A-6E, combining range and power. Not to mention a GREAT followup to the Grumman cats and its a Grumman bird on boat!

[Phalanx]

If you ask me, I think the Blackwidow would make for a good carrier based multi role, interceptor regardless of what anybody says. I think it would be good to hypothetically have a new pheonix missle system be resurrected in to it and variable swing wing design as the fighter was orignally expected to be a replacement of the F-14 as a NATF but funding for this baby wasn't requested by the DOD after 1990. It's got the range, fuel capacity, more effective stealth capabilty than the raptor. But if you ask me, I think another reason why the USAF ATF program chose the raptor over the blackwidow was because the design was a little too radical for them even though I found it very unique and interesting. Aside from the fact that the F-22 had a more conventional design to it and it was more easy to maintain and had greater potential for future development as well as other stuff I read up on, I still think the Blackwidow could supplement the Raptor.

Edited June 3, 2006 by Phalanx

[David Hingtgen]

The real reasons the F-22 was picked:

1. The YF-23 was several inches longer than could be easily accomodated in all the USAF's F-15 hangars. This could have been easily rectified, but it was a big point with the F-22 already "fitting" in F-15 spots. (not that the F-22 didn't have every single square inch redesigned from the YF-22)

2. Lockheed. Lobby.

3. It looked more "normal" than the YF-23. No matter how cool/awesome the YF-23 looked, it was "unusual".

PS---Grumman has nothing to do with the YF-23 design. The company may be Northrop Grumman now, but saying Grumman YF-23 is like saying Boeing F-4 Phantom. The YF-23 is McDonnellDouglas systems/avionics in a Northrop airframe/skin. You'd be amazed how many F-15 parts are in the YF-23.

The plane is Northrop's. It's the fighter version of the B-2. (Go look at the two closely--it's obvious they share designers--same era, too).

Look at all the cool stuff Northrop made that was never used as intended:

Edited June 4, 2006 by David Hingtgen

[Zentrandude]

Theres one way to tell. if the hydrolics are leaking its Grumman. If not its either not Grumman or it is Grumman and its broken. You know the old saying about them and their planes.

[David Hingtgen]

Airshow day! F-15C East Coast team was a last minute addition, as was the IA ANG KC-135. Best pics I got of the day: (hey, I have a 2 megapixel camera with like a 2x zoom---these are amazing by my camera's standards---the Quad City airshow lets you get closer to the planes than almost anywhere else)

[Nied]

The real reasons the F-22 was picked:

1.  The YF-23 was several inches longer than could be easily accomodated in all the USAF's F-15 hangars.  This could have been easily rectified, but it was a big point with the F-22 already "fitting" in F-15 spots.  (not that the F-22 didn't have every single square inch redesigned from the YF-22)

2.  Lockheed.  Lobby. 

3.  It looked more "normal" than the YF-23.  No matter how cool/awesome the YF-23 looked, it was "unusual". 

PS---Grumman has nothing to do with the YF-23 design.  The company may be Northrop Grumman now, but saying Grumman YF-23 is like saying Boeing F-4 Phantom.    The YF-23 is McDonnellDouglas systems/avionics in a Northrop airframe/skin.  You'd be amazed how many F-15 parts are in the YF-23. 

The plane is Northrop's.  It's the fighter version of the B-2.  (Go look at the two closely--it's obvious they share designers--same era, too).

Look at all the cool stuff Northrop made that was never used as intended:

405169[/snapback]

You forgott two.

4. The avionics and other systems on the YF-23 weren't as mature as those on the YF-22 (the YF-22 fired missiles YF-23 did not, the YF-22 flew with a working prototype of the production cockpit the YF-23 did not, the YF-22 flew high alpha maneuvers the YF-23 did not).

5. The weapons bay design was considered flawed and could not be fixed without an extensive re-design. The YF-23's weapons bay mounted AMRAAMs one above another, if one of those missiles malfunctioned the rest of the missiles above it could not be fired.

[David Hingtgen]

The YF-22 had a more mature prototype, but it was no closer to a production F-22 than the YF-23 was to a production F-23. High alpha--not very relevant IMHO--what would the YF-22's high-alpha performance prove about the F-22's? Redesigned wings, tail, and intakes. Sure, they'd be similar, but look what happened to the F-18C vs F-18E wing---lots of little issues crept up, and all they did was scale up the wing and add the original F-17 dogtooth back in. F-22 changed a lot more.

Weapons bay---forgot about that. I have yet to find a good diagram of the YF-23's trapeze launcher.

But note how complicated and difficult it is to load the F-22's bays. Wonder if the -23 would have been better or worse.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

OOOOO!!! Totally forgot about my fav norththrop birds so.....

YF-17 vs F-20.

Both never made it into production, both from the same family of fighters but with decidedly different designs. Both planes that should have been made but never were produced in mass numbers. Both fighters that people like me wish "could have been".

Funny thing is depending on what pics you look at, the YF-17 seems to be able to carry more weight. They both share similar A2A loadouts though(2 aim-9/2 aim-7).

I think the YF-17 was the faster of the 2 but tis a shame both of them never made it to service.