Aircraft Vs Super Thread! 2

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Yes, a Corgi EF2000! I love the Typhoon and being British, it's the plane I fly the most in the Ace Combat games. Will definitely be picking one up.

Graham

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flyingmule.com's got it up for preorder too Graham! Pick your poison, 1 seater, or 2 seater. They differ slightly in armnaments as well.

[Phalanx]

David, is there any airshows going on near where you live at? I haven't heard of any airshows going on where I live at as I don't see or hear any jets flying around near Andrews AFB. I haven't been to an airshow since 1999. I pretty much lost all interest in going to them since the 9/11 attacks where we have to park our cars at the FEDEX field and take a shuttle bus to the base and couldn't bring bags or ice coolers. Those mother f**king terrorists ruined my favorite May event of my life.

[Phalanx]

Crap I missed it because of finals! My brother went though, so hopefully he watched it and can fill me in.

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Quick off-topic question Shin, are you a high school senior or a college senior?

[F-ZeroOne]

Yes, a Corgi EF2000! I love the Typhoon and being British, it's the plane I fly the most in the Ace Combat games. Will definitely be picking one up.

Graham

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It looks great in Ace Combat games, especially once you unlock the "Black" scheme...! The only thing I don't like is that you don't get the most advanced AAMs, unlike the F-22. Once Meteor enters service, the RAF will be shooting down aggressors across the oceans from Biggin Hill...

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Crap I missed it because of finals! My brother went though, so hopefully he watched it and can fill me in.

398835[/snapback]

Quick off-topic question Shin, are you a high school senior or a college senior?

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college

It looks great in Ace Combat games, especially once you unlock the "Black" scheme...! The only thing I don't like is that you don't get the most advanced AAMs, unlike the F-22. Once Meteor enters service, the RAF will be shooting down aggressors across the oceans from Biggin Hill...

I assume meteor is that long range a2a missle that the typhoon can use in ac4/5/0. Whats the range on that thing? Whens it due to enter service?

Franklin mint has a black typhoon in 1/48 scale. But its static display only, no gear up option, which has also made me decide to never buy franklin mint. I want the OPTION to go gear up or down! So hopefully Corgi pumps out a black typhoon sometime too.

[Nied]

David, is there any airshows going on near where you live at? I haven't heard of any airshows going on where I live at as I don't see or hear any jets flying around near Andrews AFB. I haven't been to an airshow since 1999. I pretty much lost all interest in going to them since the 9/11 attacks where we have to park our cars at the FEDEX field and take a shuttle bus to the base and couldn't bring bags or ice coolers. Those mother f**king terrorists ruined my favorite May event of my life.

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I went to the Andrews show in '04, it's actually not that bad if you do it right. We found that the best way to do it is to take the Metro in (I forget the stop now, I think it's the last on one the Green line). There's shuttlebusses that will take you to Andrews in about five minutes from there.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Saw the raptor demo vids. Pretty impressive. The cobra was cool, I like how its got enough power to accelerate in the vertical right after doing the cobra(nose can stay pitched up rather than tip back down). I also did see the hover, pretty cool as well.

[F-ZeroOne]

It looks great in Ace Combat games, especially once you unlock the "Black" scheme...! The only thing I don't like is that you don't get the most advanced AAMs, unlike the F-22. Once Meteor enters service, the RAF will be shooting down aggressors across the oceans from Biggin Hill... 

I assume meteor is that long range a2a missle that the typhoon can use in ac4/5/0.  Whats the range on that thing?  Whens it due to enter service?

Franklin mint has a black typhoon in 1/48 scale. But its static display only, no gear up option, which has also made me decide to never buy franklin mint. I want the OPTION to go gear up or down!  So hopefully Corgi pumps out a black typhoon sometime too.

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Details seem to be a little thin, but 100KM + seems a fair estimate. Incidentally, and something I've only just realised recently, is that the Meteor perhaps shows the difference in design philosophy between the UK and the US: the US historically, has always had to "go there and do that". The UK, on the other hand, has generally always had to "let them come here and then we do that"...

Edited May 12, 2006 by F-ZeroOne

[David Hingtgen]

Airshows? I like going here to find out who's where:

http://www.schultzairshows.com/ Click on Demo Schedules, then the specific team/plane you want to know about.

Also, http://www.stevesairshow.com/demos06.html

USAF schedule, including fly-overs:

http://www.acc.af.mil/library/factsheets/f...eet.asp?id=3679

http://www.acc.af.mil/library/factsheets/f...eet.asp?id=3813

http://www.airshows.org/list_events.php has EVERY airshow, just takes a while to sort "Thunderbirds and the Strike Eagle demo team" from "3 Cessnas and a pancake breakfast"

[Phalanx]

I wonder if Andrews AFB has the F-22 stationed there yet. If Langley AFB and Oceania AFB have them,then surely several other AFB's around the nation have them ready and are more than willing to have them perform at airshows. I know that it will take several more years for the Raptor to be mass produced in sufficent numbers so that nearly every state in the nation has them. Also Nied, Knight26, or Dave, do you know if they only assign a squadron of raptors to just one of the major bases in each of the states?

[David Hingtgen]

Permanently, or for airshows?

Phalanx, there will be VERY few Raptors out there. 183 at last count I think. There's not enough F-16's for every state to have them, much less F-15's, even less so F-22's.

Generally, F-22's are only showing up at all at airshows where they will be stationed, and/or the biggest/most famous airbases there are. Andrews will never have F-22's stationed there--no point with Langley so close, in addition to Andrews having only the 89th Wing I think---they're for MATS/Airlift, not fighters.

The only confirmed F-22 bases are Langley and Elmendorf I think---the list changes with the tides, phase of the moon, planetary alignment, and what General Jumper had for breakfast...

There will be so few F-22's even front-line MiG-killing F-15C bases like Eglin won't get even a single squadron, much less enough to re-equip the wing.

I personally expect Kadena and Lakenheath to eventually get one squadron each, with their other squadrons remaining F-15C's.

PS---it's Oceana NAS, not AFB. I doubt a Naval base would ever station Air Force planes.

Edited May 12, 2006 by David Hingtgen

[Nied]

I wonder if Andrews AFB has the F-22 stationed there yet. If Langley AFB and Oceania AFB have them,then surely several other AFB's around the nation have them ready and are more than willing to have them perform at airshows. I know that it will take several more years for the Raptor to be mass produced in sufficent numbers so that nearly every state in the nation has them. Also Nied, Knight26, or Dave, do you know if they only assign a squadron of raptors to just one of the major bases in each of the states?

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Andrews will probably never have Raptors stationed there. The only combat aircraft to fly out of there are from the DC ANG and they fly F-16s. Most likely they will get JSFs that filter down to them from active duty squadrons (last I knew they flew old Block 30 F-16Cs). If the Raptor production numbers go up and if something happens to kill F-35 production I could see a slim chance of them getting early A model Raptors in 15 years or so but I don't think that's likely.

Edited May 12, 2006 by Nied

[Nied]

*snip*

PS---it's Oceana NAS, not AFB.  I doubt a Naval base would ever station Air Force planes.

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Actually the 27th TFS is going to be disbursed to Oceana while Langley's Runway is re-built.

[kalvasflam]

I believe Oceania is NAS, not AFB, so likely no F-22.

I have heard that funding is really hard to come by for -22, and USAF is buying planes by parts at a time, and then assembling them later (last week's business week) and raising a fuss in Congress.

The cost on this plane is extreme. It is in my opinion shameful to have such an expensive program to develop a plane and then have only so few planes. B-2 program was outrageously expensive, and there will only be 20 units. The number of -22 is poor too, 183 planes... Jesus. I recall the original USAF order for -15 was at 729 units, but went eventually to well over 1000 units.

At some point, quality just can't make up for quantity. Would you rather have 1000 upgraded F-15 or 200 F-22.... hmmmm, I'd pick the -15s. The only question is cost of maintanence.

I know there are people in the world who keeps thinking peace is breaking out... but let's not kid ourselves, there is a new cold war going on... the only problem is there is no clear cut enemy this time.

[Nied]

I believe Oceania is NAS, not AFB, so likely no F-22.

I have heard that funding is really hard to come by for -22, and USAF is buying planes by parts at a time, and then assembling them later  (last week's business week) and raising a fuss in Congress.

The cost on this plane is extreme.  It is in my opinion shameful to have such an expensive program to develop a plane and then have only so few planes.  B-2 program was outrageously expensive, and there will only be 20 units.  The number of -22 is poor too, 183 planes... Jesus.  I recall the original USAF order for -15 was at 729 units, but went eventually to well over 1000 units. 

At some point, quality just can't make up for quantity.  Would you rather have 1000 upgraded F-15 or 200 F-22.... hmmmm, I'd pick the -15s.  The only question is cost of maintanence.

I know there are people in the world who keeps thinking peace is breaking out... but let's not kid ourselves, there is a new cold war going on... the only problem is there is no clear cut enemy this time.

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Actually the fly away cost of the F-22 isn't much more than the cost of new or upgraded F-15s. Most of the complaints heard about the F-22's cost include the development costs which were indeed quite high, but are also already spent. At this point cutting the F-22's numbers doesn't save much money, as most of the money has already been spent and can't be gotten back. My vote would be to continue buying a handful of Raptors every year over the next few decades until they've replaced all our F-15s.

[David Hingtgen]

AFAIK it's roughly 160 million per F-22 and 90 million for a new F-15K or equivalent. Maybe the F-22's 130 million.

Nied---ignoring "when the runway's gone" there's usually not AF planes at naval stations.

[Nied]

AFAIK the F-22 cost 110 to 120 million when we were buying 240 to 360 planes, after the cut to 183 the price has gone up to 130 to 140 million.

[David Hingtgen]

Ooh, I didn't know it was that cheap. Imagine if we still had the 700 plane order...

[Nied]

Ooh, I didn't know it was that cheap.  Imagine if we still had the 700 plane order...

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I imagine it would be quite cheap. But considering that we only have a little over 400 Eagles at this point (not including Stirke Eagles) that would be overkill.

[David Hingtgen]

Not if it replaces Block 30 F-16's, all the F-117's, a few B-52's, and we give them to the ANG!

[Akilae]

Actually the fly away cost of the F-22 isn't much more than the cost of new or upgraded F-15s.  Most of the complaints heard about the F-22's cost include the development costs which were indeed quite high, but are also already spent.  At this point cutting the F-22's numbers doesn't save much money, as most of the money has already been spent and can't be gotten back.  My vote would be to continue buying a handful of Raptors every year over the next few decades until they've replaced all our F-15s.

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Unfortunately the idea of "economies of scale" seem to fly in the very face of common sense when it comes to politicians and libertarians start screaming "massive military spending!!!" (note: it's a joke, albeit a bad one.). Like somebody already said, the B-2 was already hit with this problem. I remember hearing this argument during the C-17 production run too.

Producing them in batches would be a good idea, unfortunately knowing how things work in our funky gov'ment, I think what will happen is: massive (or minor, lol) single production run, some produced for spares, then the jigs get destroyed to prevent further production, and we spend mega bucks again trying to patch up the shortfall of the underproduced F-22.

[David Hingtgen]

Thus the "cheap" F-35, which is supposed to fill the gap in our "stealth fighter procurement". That's about the most screwed-up program since the F-111. Not surprising, they had pretty much the same design goals. Plus stealth and hovering.

Who wants to bet F-35's end up costing more than F-22's?

[Phalanx]

Thus the "cheap" F-35, which is supposed to fill the gap in our "stealth fighter procurement".  That's about the most screwed-up program since the F-111.  Not surprising, they had pretty much the same design goals.  Plus stealth and hovering.   

Who wants to bet F-35's end up costing more than F-22's?

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I do! After all, F-35's haven't been produced in moderate numbers to seemingly supplement the F-22. I think that the F-22's cost more than the F-35 due to maintenance and the sophisticated avionics. Correct me if i'm wrong

[Nied]

Thus the "cheap" F-35, which is supposed to fill the gap in our "stealth fighter procurement".  That's about the most screwed-up program since the F-111.  Not surprising, they had pretty much the same design goals.  Plus stealth and hovering.   

Who wants to bet F-35's end up costing more than F-22's?

399125[/snapback]

Phalanx beat me to it but I'm a taker too. I'm still an advocate of axing all but the F-35C and selling that to everyone, the RN is keen on the idea, and I've read reports that the RAF would love to use it as a Jaguar replacement. The C model seems the perfect replacement for the A-7 which is what the vast majority of our F-16s and F/A-18s are doing anyway. Other than STOVL there's nothing we really need the F-35A or B for that couldn't be accomplished by a combo of the F-35C and new build legacy designs.

[Warmaker]

I'm of the mindset that the JSF has to meet too many demands and compromises.

The whole "1 aircraft for every air service" isn't impressing me. Even the F-4 couldn't do everything, and that served the USAF, USN, and USMC.

[Coota0]

Went to the Fort Worth JRB airshow today...

First the A-10 Pics

A Navy CH-53

Edited May 15, 2006 by Coota0

[Coota0]

Super Hornet, Gotta say they are impressive up close

Harrier

T-45

T-38

[Coota0]

F/A-18A+

[Coota0]

Advesary F-16 from Fallon

And my personal favorite from one of the C-130s

I'll post more once I get the regular Camera Developed.

[Phalanx]

Well going back to the F-35 briefly, since it's supposed to replace the F-16's soon and it would cost an arm and a leg to build and maintain, has the USAF considered making bootleg F-35's by taking existing F-16, stripping them apart and making moderate modifcations to the fuselage to accomodate a large hoverfan and use the same type of downward thrust vectoring engine nozzle the F-35 has as well as applying a thin layer of RAM to the top half of the airframe? I think it's a good idea to do this to existing F-16's even though the tradeoff may be costly. After all, since the F-35 shares similar capabilites like a lightweight airframe, single engine and maneuvarnility like the F-16, i figured that making bootleg F-35 out of F-16's would cost less a little to produce and maintain and since it may also take several years to completely phase out the F-16, the USAF might as well resort to doing this. It's performance may be a little less than the original F-35, but if the USAF want's to conserve money, they might as well consider that idea.

[ALLAN]

I was there today too.

Not near as good as the last couple years.

[Graham]

Heh, love the 'Golf Club Storage' marking on that F/A-18.

Graham

[Phalanx]

Hey Coota0, I like that F-16 with that blue camo aggressor paint scheme.

[David Hingtgen]

Phalanx--that is WAY beyond the realm of possibility.

[Lynx7725]

Well going back to the F-35 briefly, since it's supposed to replace the F-16's soon and it would cost an arm and a leg to build and maintain, has the USAF considered making bootleg F-35's by taking existing F-16, stripping them apart and making moderate modifcations to the fuselage to accomodate a large hoverfan and use the same type of downward thrust vectoring engine nozzle the F-35 has as well as applying a thin layer of RAM to the top half of the airframe?

399516[/snapback]

.....

Aeronautic engineering isn't exactly anime magic, y'know. You're suggesting to rip apart an F-16's airframe to stuff things that the airframe is not designed to support. Even if someone can be convinced to do this, it's cheaper just to redesign a whole new airframe to do the same job.

Even if someone is willing to throw the money to do the job, you'll probably need to redo the entire assembly line to produce the new airframe, so there's no savings there.

And what of the existing F-16 inventory? Are you going to suggest to refit them too? The entire plane pretty much has to be gutted for this kind of refit, especially on a jet as small as the F-16. What's the point? You end up throwing more money to fit things into an airframe that would probably degrade its performance -- more cost to do less things.