Aircraft Vs Super Thread! 2

[Skull Leader]

Boeing-Wichita has just announced a serious layoff here too. They've already sold half of their facilities to Spirit Aerosystems, all that remains is the military mod center. Pretty much all they work on here right now are the laser test 747s, Air Force One, and KC-135s (I did see a new italian 737 tanker variant in the hangar a while back though). This used to be a big site for working on B-52s, but that's evidently done somewhere else right now.

I don't think they intend to close the facility, it's pretty cheap to operate (they're only paying half the usual upkeep for the runway, the other half shared by McConnell AFB) but it's definately being downsized.

Edited April 21, 2006 by Skull Leader

[buddhafabio]

Boeing-Wichita has just announced a serious layoff here too. They've already sold half of their facilities to Spirit Aerosystems, all that remains is the military mod center. Pretty much all they work on here right now are the laser test 747s, Air Force One, and KC-135s (I did see a new italian 737 tanker variant in the hangar a while back though). This used to be a big site for working on B-52s, but that's evidently done somewhere else right now.

I don't think they intend to close the facility, it's pretty cheap to operate (they're only paying half the usual upkeep for the runway, the other half shared by McConnell AFB) but it's definately being downsized.

392893[/snapback]

alot of the refab work on aircraft is done at Tinker A.F.B. (my dads first civilian job out of the airforce) and i saw a few being regenerated out there 10 years ago.

[hellohikaru]

The Italians have 737 tankers ?

The KC-767s not enough ?

[David Hingtgen]

The Long Beach plant will be turned into a planned community, but the "Fly DC Jets" sign will be saved because it's a national historic treasure/landmark etc---but they're going to move it. A lot of the buildings are already gone.

The DC-8/9 assembly building will become a big warehouse.

Here's Boeing's website for it--buy land in "Douglas Park!"

http://www.douglaspark.org/ Who wants to be the first?

[reddsun1]

I believe Phalanx mentioned earlier the Japanese "Oscar" fighter as one notable plane that served in the Zero's "shadow"? Actually, one of the less known fighters of WWII Japan that I recently found out more about was the Kawanishi N1K2 "Shinden-Kai." Ironic, if not for the advent of modern computer simulation games, a lot of these planes would be lost to obscurity. The Mistu Zero is certainly the most famous plane used by Japan, but not the only one. A unique design feature was wing flaps which operated automatically to increase "lift" when necessary during extreme maneuvers. The device, operated with electricity and oil pressure using a U-shaped tube containing mercury, was an important factor in the aircraft's maneuverability in combat.

"The Shiden Kai was to become perhaps the best all-round fighter to be operational in the Pacific theater. It was fast, powerful, and maneuverable, and was well-armed and armored. In the hands of an experienced pilot, the Shiden-Kai was the equal of any Allied fighter, even the later models of the P-51 Mustang which began to appear over Japan in the spring of 1945. In one notable action, on February 16 1945 over Yokohama, Warrant Officer Kinsuke Muto of the 343rd Kokutai in an N1K2-J single-handedly battled a dozen F6F Hellcats. He shot down four of them before the rest were forced to break off combat and return to their carrier. However, against the B-29, the N1K2-J was less successful, since its climbing speed was insufficient and the power of the Homare 21 engine fell off rather rapidly at higher altitudes."

Edited April 21, 2006 by reddsun1

[Phalanx]

I believe Phalanx mentioned earlier the Japanese "Oscar" fighter as one notable plane that served in the Zero's "shadow"?  Actually, one of the less known fighters of WWII Japan that I recently found out more about was the Kawanishi N1K2 "Shinden-Kai."  Ironic, if not for the advent of modern computer simulation games, a lot of these planes would be lost to obscurity.  The Mistu Zero is certainly the most famous plane used by Japan, but not the only one.  A unique design feature was wing flaps which operated automatically to increase "lift" when necessary during extreme maneuvers. The device, operated with electricity and oil pressure using a U-shaped tube containing mercury, was an important factor in the aircraft's maneuverability in combat.

"The Shiden Kai was to become perhaps the best all-round fighter to be operational in the Pacific theater. It was fast, powerful, and maneuverable, and was well-armed and armored. In the hands of an experienced pilot, the Shiden-Kai was the equal of any Allied fighter, even the later models of the P-51 Mustang which began to appear over Japan in the spring of 1945. In one notable action, on February 16 1945 over Yokohama, Warrant Officer Kinsuke Muto of the 343rd Kokutai in an N1K2-J single-handedly battled a dozen F6F Hellcats. He shot down four of them before the rest were forced to break off combat and return to their carrier. However, against the B-29, the N1K2-J was less successful, since its climbing speed was insufficient and the power of the Homare 21 engine fell off rather rapidly at higher altitudes."

392927[/snapback]

Were you talking about the Sjinden Kai or Shinden J7 plane? I was actually talking about the J7 but to add to the Shinden J7 plane, this plane came close to being mass produced to counter all of the Allied forces fighters but by that time, it was too late since the war ended after the A-Bomb was dropped. Also, the "Oscar" plane had an improved engine for faster speed.

Edited April 21, 2006 by Phalanx

[Rocket Punch]

The Long Beach plant will be turned into a planned community, but the "Fly DC Jets" sign will be saved because it's a national historic treasure/landmark etc---but they're going to move it.  A lot of the buildings are already gone. 

The DC-8/9 assembly building will become a big warehouse.

Here's Boeing's website for it--buy land in "Douglas Park!" 

http://www.douglaspark.org/  Who wants to be the first?

392919[/snapback]

Interesting, didn't know they had this planned. I can tell you it's in a pretty decent part of Long Beach. It's also not too far from Downtown Long Beach so it's great if you like to party.

[buddhafabio]

any one want to see video of air force one getting tagged?

http://www.stillfree.com/

i thought it was fake till i saw video.

Edited April 22, 2006 by buddhafabio

[Skull Leader]

Got news for ya, Bud. That ain't AF1. The video is a hoax (a very expensive one). It was debunked on MSN a couple of days ago.

[buddhafabio]

Got news for ya, Bud. That ain't AF1. The video is a hoax (a very expensive one). It was debunked on MSN a couple of days ago.

393296[/snapback]

yeah i just found the link on fark.com confirming the fake.

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory?id=1875386

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

People always get the spelling mixed up.

Kawanishi N1K1 Shiden (Violet Lightning)

Kyushu J7W Shinden (Grand/Magnificent Lightning)

That often repeated story of WO Kinosuke Muto of the Yokosuka Air Wing beating off 12 Hellcats has never been verified on the US side. I find it quite unbelievable that 1 Shiden can fight off 12 Hellcats.

[reddsun1]

any one want to see video of air force one getting tagged?

http://www.stillfree.com/

i thought it was fake till i saw video.

393292[/snapback]

Well, I finally caved and peeped the vid. They had me right up 'til the very end. Although very well done, I ain't never seen spray paint go onto a surface that fast, especially considering if you're trying to make letters that large. The actual "tag" wasn't convincing.

[reddsun1]

People always get the spelling mixed up.

Kawanishi N1K1 Shiden (Violet Lightning)

Kyushu J7W Shinden (Grand/Magnificent Lightning)

That often repeated story of WO Kinosuke Muto of the Yokosuka Air Wing beating off 12 Hellcats has never been verified on the US side. I find it quite unbelievable that 1 Shiden can fight off 12 Hellcats.

393304[/snapback]

I can't remember which w'site that little anctedotal story I quoted was on now. But doing a search on "Kawanishi N1K1" or "Shinden Kai" [yes, for some reason, that mispelling actually turns up info on the "George" fighter] will almost certainly turn it up.

[Rocket Punch]

any one want to see video of air force one getting tagged?

http://www.stillfree.com/

i thought it was fake till i saw video.

393292[/snapback]

Well, I finally caved and peeped the vid. They had me right up 'til the very end. Although very well done, I ain't never seen spray paint go onto a surface that fast, especially considering if you're trying to make letters that large. The actual "tag" wasn't convincing.

393359[/snapback]

Actually there are many companies that manufacture spray-paint nozzles that can spray a 1-foot diameter circle from just inches away. That's why graf artists can quickly bomb a subway car/railroad car/Air Force One and then scamper off into the night.

[David Hingtgen]

All of us airline enthusiasts debunked it the moment we saw it LONG before any site mentioned it was a fake---nothing like having the paint scheme wrong and the wrong type of engines to make us think it's a fake...

I spend a LOT of time nit-picking 747 model engines online, I am VERY well-versed in the variations, even if most model companies (and fake graffiti taggers) aren't.

Ironically, it's actually more accurate than the 747 they used in the "Air Force One" movie, which was WAY off physically. Paint scheme on that was a lot better though.

[Skull Leader]

You scare me, David. LOL, I'm sure you've learned how to handle dissapointment well over the years

[David Hingtgen]

You have NO idea the depths of my nit-picking when it comes to airliners. It IS scary.

Of course, a lot of it is backed up by the sheer existence of Airliners.net and their super search engine. If it ever flew for an airline, that site has 500 pics of it--there's no excuse for paint errors etc when the ultimate reference site is RIGHT THERE.

It's amazing how many people will swear by a memory they had of a plane they saw once when they were 7 years old, and say the 140 photographs of that plane and the 3,000 photos of it's 42 sisterships online are all wrong.

I know memories can be wrong---to this day I still have a clear memory of finding a G1 Arcee toy in a Kaybee toy store. But since it never existed, I'm pretty sure that never happened.

Edited April 23, 2006 by David Hingtgen

[Coota0]

Thought ya'll might enjoy this site. It's profile shots of Navy aircraft.

[Coota0]

Quick question, I know that USAF F-4s retained the tailhook, did they also retain the ability to fold the wings? If so, anyone seen a picture of a USAF F-4 with the wings folded or know if the USAF used the ability?

[Knight26]

Yes USAF F-4 and A-7s also had the ability to fold their wings, taht capability was not removed, but it was little used by the USAF.

[Phalanx]

In regards to the F-4 having the ability to fold their wings up, is it possible to fly a fighter in that configuration?

[F-ZeroOne]

In regards to the F-4 having the ability to fold their wings up, is it possible to fly a fighter in that configuration?

393653[/snapback]

David can probably answer this one in more detail, but the subjects come up before (most famously, in relation to the anime series Area-88, where an aircraft is able to survive a cunning trap by folding its wings in flight) here. IIRC, the F-8 Crusader can fly in certain flight profiles with wings folded, but not the F-4.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

In regards to the F-4 having the ability to fold their wings up, is it possible to fly a fighter in that configuration?

393653[/snapback]

David can probably answer this one in more detail, but the subjects come up before (most famously, in relation to the anime series Area-88, where an aircraft is able to survive a cunning trap by folding its wings in flight) here. IIRC, the F-8 Crusader can fly in certain flight profiles with wings folded, but not the F-4.

393656[/snapback]

I've heard the F-8 and F/A-18 can. not so sure about the F-4.

[David Hingtgen]

The F-4 can fly folded. I've never heard about the F-18, I doubt it since the ailerons are on the folded part---that's the key reason the F-4 and F-8 can do it--the ailerons and spoilers are on the inboard part so they retain full roll control. Also the -18 folds more of its wing lift-wise than those planes I think.

PS--I'm almost certain the F-8 would require the wing to be raised to fly like that, as there's no way it'd have enough lift with flaps and slats retracted---flap/slat position on the F-8 is absolutely determined by wing incidence.

Edited April 23, 2006 by David Hingtgen

[F-ZeroOne]

Ah, thanks, David. Sorry, my memory was playing tricks on me regards the F-4.

[Warmaker]

F/A-18? I highly doubt it.

Right when you hit the control to fold the wings, the ailerons are streamlined before the outboard wings raise.

[Phalanx]

I assume that the SU-33 can do it as well since it's ailerons are inwards to main body and not on the folded area of the wing flaps. I've never seen a picture of it in that configuration.

Edited April 24, 2006 by Phalanx

[Knight26]

I doubt that the SU-33 could do it for a number of reasons. I am not sure that the inboard and outboard flaperons can act independantly for one, I will have to check. Also look at how much of the wing folds, that's a lot of lifting surface to lose, plus look at how much they fold, not just straight up inwards as well.

[buddhafabio]

I doubt that the SU-33 could do it for a number of reasons.  I am not sure that the inboard and outboard flaperons can act independantly for one, I will have to check.  Also look at how much of the wing folds, that's a lot of lifting surface to lose, plus look at how much they fold, not just straight up inwards as well.

393815[/snapback]

they do have alot of thrust avalible to them thoughit might help a little

[Lynx7725]

they do have alot of thrust avalible to them thoughit might help a little

393853[/snapback]

In other words, you are saying a Su-33 with wings up flies because it's a rocket, right?

[David Hingtgen]

Su-33 is NO WAY. Quickly calculating from a drawing, it loses 74% of its wingspan when folded---it folds everything but the root pretty much. Basically, it folds in-line with the canard tips---and it can't fly on "canard-span" alone.

Plus remember that the Su-33 also folds its stabililators up, and that when the wings are folded, the flaps fold to fit against the v.stab, in such a way that the wing may even produce negative lift and probably blanking most of the rudder.

[Knight26]

http://www.flyingmule.com/products/GC-8018

Tell me I'm not the only one who is tempted to get this bad boy.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

http://www.flyingmule.com/products/GC-8018

Tell me I'm not the only one who is tempted to get this bad boy.

393996[/snapback]

Man if gaincorp had the option of retractable swap gear, I would so be all over ALL of their releases and completely forget about dragon..

[Skull Leader]

Not really a Berkut fan...

[Phalanx]

Quickly making one last quick reference to the Tomcat 21, I was so stupid to realize that I've actually seen it before; not in real life of course but in a video game. Have any of you guys played Air Force Delta for the Dreamcast? I still have mine since Christmas of 99' and I remembered when I first selected the F-14D and saw it from the chase view, I noticed that there was something a little different about, and it was the main body/glove vain area in which appeared to be slightly stretched out of proportion. When I saw this, I honestly assumed that the 3D aircraft modelers of the game had made a slight error in modeling the main body/ glove vane area but it turns out that that was the way the Tomcat 21 was like in real life. The point is that I now know that the Tomcat was originally intended to be the F-14D but the creators of the game hypothetically made the Tomcat 21 the F-14D despite the fact Grumman canceled that concept and stuck to using an F-14B(F-14A+) and upgrading it's avionics and keeping those engines.