Aircraft Vs Super Thread! 2

[David Hingtgen]

Top speed is utterly pointless, as it's never achieved. Top speeds are CLEAN speeds, not max speed with a load.

A Super Hornet won't even break Mach 1 in full burner with a typical attack load, and even the vaunted super-fast F-15 won't break 1.7 with its typical CAP loadout, the F-14's about the same. An F-2 with its gigantic anti-ship missles won't fare well either.

The F-22 will blow them all away 99% of the time, as it doesn't lose any speed from external weapon drag. It can super-cruise with 6 AMRAAM's faster than a Super Hornet can go in max afterburner with the same load.

Edited April 14, 2006 by David Hingtgen

[Phalanx]

Thanx Dave for pointing that out. I had somewhat of a hard time telling the differnce between top speed and max speed because I assumed it meant the same thing. I forgot the ordinance loadout on fighters can offset their speed potential due to parasitical drag on the wing pylons.

[David Hingtgen]

Actually the terms are interchangable--the key thing is if the plane is "airshow clean" or not. Even just a few pylons or bombs can knock off hundreds of miles per hour.

Also, since speed is considered less and less important, a lot of planes can't achieve their design speed any more. I doubt any F-15 can go above Mach 2.3 nowadays, totally stripped clean. (less thrust+more weight+more drag=lower speed) Plus 2.3 being the typical canopy heat limit for them. Both the F-15 and F-111 are limited by heat more than thrust/drag. They can go as fast as they want until the airframe gets too hot.

Quick note: most any plane can be made airshow clean with a single button. The emergency jettison (separate from the normal jettison) will explosively blow off everything that can possibly be removed from the aircraft, so that you can RUN if you need to. Every pylon, missile, bomb, adapater, launcher, and fairing will be gone. (Exception being F-15 CFT's, no way to remove in the air)

I've always wondered about the F-14 though, as its wing pylons are rarely removed, even for airshows and tests. And the Phoenix pallets are so huge I wonder about blowing them off in flight. I have to check more on what an emer. jett. will do on the Tomcat.

The F-16 is the only plane I know of that can easily achieve its top speed so long as its stripped clean.

::edit:: Seems that the F-14 won't jettison a Phoenix pallet nor any pylon, and will not jettison Sidewinders. That's the least effective emergency jettison I've ever seen.

Edited April 14, 2006 by David Hingtgen

[Skull Leader]

Hey guys, do you think the F/A-18E/F would be a good F-2A/B replacement?

390890[/snapback]

Moot point. The Japanese put mega bank into their F-2s, they're gonna be using them for a long while now so they can best get their money's worth. The first ones only just went into service in 2000, expect a good 20 years of service or more out of them (by which point something much better than the SH is likely to be available). Purely from a performance standpoint, the F-2 will walk all over the Super Hornet with or without a weapons load. From a radar standpoint, the Super Hornet pretty much out-performs the Viper Zero (although the Viper Zero's radar is adequate for the role it does).

[Nied]

Aparently the hurdles for this program were exagerated by the GAO report.  Last month's issue of Air International mentioned the Block 20 spec including COTS architechure.  Now that I think about it, it's possible that the Block 20 spec wont be introduced until next year, I'll have to check that when I get home from work.

390849[/snapback]

OK here's the relevant 'graphs from the Air International article. Looks like I was right the second time instead of the first, Block 20 F-22s will be introduced in 2007, not this year.

Current planning envisages the introduction of the 358lb (175kg) GBU-39 and GBU-40 Small diameter Bombs [i don't think this is right every source I've seen says the SDB is 250lbs not 358]in the Block 20 aircraft by 2007, together with high resolution synthetic aperture radar (SAR) mapping modes, better radar electronic counter-countermeasures (ECCM), two-way voice and data multifunctional information distribution system (MIDS)/Link 16 capability, improved crew station software and upgraded electronic countermeasures.  The Block 20 configuration is the baseline for the GSTF fleet, and will include JSF common radar modules, a dedicated high-speed radar processor and commercial off-the-shelf technology central integrated processors.

The article then goes on to describe the planned upgrades in the next two blocks (including electronic warfare capabilities in the Block 40 version that would allow an F-22 to perform the roles of an EF-111 Raven and a Wild Weasel at the same time).

Apparently Block 20 has been bought and paid for, it just has to be installed:

The spiral development programme for strike capabilities is incremental and primarily involves software integration of networking equipment and new weapons, as a result it is not an unusually expensive proposition.  The block 20 enhancements were covered in the original 2004 production budget. Much of the criticism directed at the spiral development programme is based on unrealistically inflated cost estimates.  Given the remaining uncertainties about numbers beyond the 183 aircraft, the time-lines for block 30 and 40 configurations remain unclear.

[Zentrandude]

This was aired today on the news this rc jet is huge, I bet DH will love it.

link

Edited April 14, 2006 by Zentrandude

[David Hingtgen]

I've always been surprised that most large R/C airliners, despite being like 1:8 scale, have godawful proportions and shapes, being less accurate than $3 1:600 scale toys. You see tons of incredibly perfect R/C F-15's and the like, but most airliners I see are just hideously off.

But Airbuses tend to be done a lot better, and I have no idea why.

Wonder if it leaves a scale wake----it'd still be dangerous to small aircraft!

[Zentrandude]

Im sure bunch of the stuff is off scale. The vid of landing is very rough, a real one doing the same would most likely crush the landing gears and have some nice belly sparks.

[kalvasflam]

  Just because two countries are friendly with us doesn't mean that they'll be friendly to each other. 

390744[/snapback]

I'm not sure I would say the Russians are a "friendly" nation.

390865[/snapback]

Hmmm, it's more accurate to say that the U.S. military is the best friend of the Russian armament industry, especially its aircraft industry. Since every few years, little tin pot dictators around the world need to buy new Russian planes for the Americans to shot down a few years later. If I were a Russian industrialist, I'd be publicly saying my military hardware rocked, privately cheering the U.S. military to go out and deplete the existing stock in the arsenal of any potential customers.

Did I also forget to mention, that the Russians love the U.S. government because it prevents sales of truly advanced weaponary, and the unit cost of even the downgraded versions typically are higher than those of "equivalent" Russian design. The French, the Swedish, and the entire bloody European consortisum on the other hand are much hated, the bastards will sell just about any advanced weapons to anyone who has a buck... don't those SOBs have any morales? So says the Russian military industry.

Edited April 14, 2006 by kalvasflam

[Noyhauser]

Did I also forget to mention, that the Russians love the U.S. government because it prevents sales of truly advanced weaponary, and the unit cost of even the downgraded versions typically are higher than those of "equivalent" Russian design.  The French, the Swedish, and the entire bloody European consortisum on the other hand are much hated, the bastards will sell just about any advanced weapons to anyone who has a buck... don't those SOBs have any morales?  So says the Russian military industry. 

391081[/snapback]

Uhh, some members do. Really its only France. The UK, Sweeden and Germany (other major European exporters) have serious limitations on their ability to export arms. Germany and Sweedes have serious legal limitations on their arms trade, and the UK has pretentions towards being an "ethical Arms dealer." (Robin Cook in the late 1990s and the 2002 Hawk Sale to India are good examples) Only the French can be said to be ethically challenged with their arms export

[Lynx7725]

Im sure bunch of the stuff is off scale.  The vid of landing is very rough, a real one doing the same would most likely crush the landing gears and have some nice belly sparks.

391080[/snapback]

You ain't kidding. He landed that airliner like he was landing a F-14 on the deck.

[Phalanx]

The French, the Swedish, and the entire bloody European consortisum on the other hand are much hated, the bastards will sell just about any advanced weapons to anyone who has a buck... don't those SOBs have any morales?  So says the Russian military industry. 

391081[/snapback]

You may want to watch it there Kavasflam,. You might have offended some people of direct European decent with that comment you made unless you were joking with them.

[kalvasflam]

Noyhauser,

Good point, I don't know much about the Swedes to be honest... never looked much at the Grippen and its sales around the world. From what I know of the Brits, and I suppose if you look at the Tornado (the European consortium) in general, it's tough to tell whether its country specific restrictions or just a matter of not having the right capabilities for countries. Besides the Europeans, the Saudis have Tornados, I don't recall who the other exports were though, but I thought at least one other non-European country uses Tornados.

The French tend to sell Mirages all over the place, Israelis, Iraqis, etc.... as long as there is decent money to be made.

and now, entertainment of the day....

The French, the Swedish, and the entire bloody European consortisum on the other hand are much hated, the bastards will sell just about any advanced weapons to anyone who has a buck... don't those SOBs have any morales?  So says the Russian military industry. 

391081[/snapback]

You may want to watch it there Kavasflam,. You might have offended some people of direct European decent with that comment you made unless you were joking with them.

391147[/snapback]

My goodness, such sensitivity.... please don't get the ACLU on my case regarding my uhhhh... uhhhhh... "comment" there.

Phalanx, I recall you're young, so, let me give you a little bit of advice, if you go through life worrying about offending everyone and being offended by every little comment made by someone else or hell, worrying about one party offending another at every turn, well, it's not a happy life that you're going to lead. But then again, it is your life... do whatever pleases you.

PEACE.

But just in case I offended those warmongering psychopaths out there with that last statement.... Just to keep it fair and balanced.

WAR

Edited April 14, 2006 by kalvasflam

[Phalanx]

Wow when you think about Kalvasflam, you're right becuae I honestly took offense to some of the users comments during my topic about SK redesigning the VF-1 and that's a good moral I've learned from you so thanx for pointing that out to me greatly appreciate it

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Hey guys we never talked much about ww2 aces in the super thread that got archived. And for that matter, sabre and MIG-15 aces.

Discuss! Who do you think are the most succesful aces from ww2 and korea? BEst in european and japanese and korean theatre? Anyone like the MIG-15 over F-86?

And what was up with the Dog Saber>? Was that a radar in there?

Also any info on the "old crow" P-51 would be greatly appreciated.

[Phalanx]

Whats the distinct difference Shin? After all bothe fighters performed admirably during the Korean War and Cold War era but America's F-86 did better than the MIG-15's despite the same airframe design. The only difference was that the American pilots were more skilled than the Russian pilots.

Here's the link to the Old Crow P-51:

http://www.cebudanderson.com/

[kalvasflam]

Couple of names on WWII ace, don't remember any others right now.

Dave McCampbell, USN

Saburo Sakai, IJN

two great aces, Sakai had a great autobiography (?) "Samurai" it was a great book.

[Phalanx]

What about the Tuskegee Airmen? Can't forget about them too and wasn't Chuck Yeager a WW2 ace before he was a test pilot?

Edited April 14, 2006 by Phalanx

[Lightning]

Yeager also flew F-86's Germany and commanded a squadron during Vietnam as well IIRC.

[buddhafabio]

greg "pappy"boyington was an ace also. alot of hellcat drivers were aces. p-38 drivers were aces. there may have been more united states aces thin the pacific then in the german theater. speaking of there were a few germans with 100+ kills.

[Coota0]

wasn't Chuck Yeager a WW2 ace before he was a test pilot?

391216[/snapback]

Knocked down five Germans in one mission.

[David Hingtgen]

Or my fave quote of his, when a reporter asked what it was like the first time he ever saw a jet:

"I shot it down"

[Nied]

Im sure bunch of the stuff is off scale.  The vid of landing is very rough, a real one doing the same would most likely crush the landing gears and have some nice belly sparks.

391080[/snapback]

It looked from the vid that he was trying for a more scale landing, but ran into some nasty cross winds. I think he decided to just drop it on the gears rather than have it land wing first after an unexpected gust close to the ground.

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

greg "pappy"boyington was an ace also.  alot of hellcat drivers were aces.  p-38 drivers were aces.  there may have been more united states aces thin the pacific then in the german theater.  speaking of there were a few germans with 100+ kills.

391221[/snapback]

There were about a 100 of em with kills in the 100 range. Mostly on the Eastern front. 2 with 300+. 15 with 200+ IIRC.

If what they said about Marseille was 75% true, he takes the cake for greatest of the lot.

[reddsun1]

LOL, a tad bit o/t but cool vid of an R/C Spitfire, w/some neat sfx dubbing to make it sound more realistic.

http://frettavefur.net/video/yt/spitfire_sfx.wmv

and a B25: http://frettavefur.net/video/yt/b25.wmv

and an Me109: http://frettavefur.net/video/yt/me109.wmv

heh, R/C planes are neat...

[Phalanx]

Wow! After 16 pages of debates and discussions about jetplanes, nobody has talked about flight sims? Im flattered

Edited April 15, 2006 by Phalanx

[buddhafabio]

any one see these picture out of Ellsworth Afb (where i was born) it has fire suppression foam test opps all over it.

http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/articl...20064611181.asp

[F-ZeroOne]

wasn't Chuck Yeager a WW2 ace before he was a test pilot?

391216[/snapback]

Knocked down five Germans in one mission.

391247[/snapback]

I think his final score was seventeen, although there were a couple "unofficial ones" - shortly after being allowed to fly again after escaping from occupied Europe, he shot down a German plane and got into trouble for it - because he wasn't officially supposed to be flying combat missions again at the time! The kill was added to another pilots record IIRC.

[F-ZeroOne]

Hey guys we never talked much about ww2 aces in the super thread that got archived. And for that matter, sabre and MIG-15 aces. 

Discuss! Who do you think are the most succesful aces from ww2 and korea? BEst in european and japanese and korean theatre?

A personal favourite of mine is a chap called Adrian Warburton. Some of you may recall news stories about a missing British "ace" whose remains were only recently recovered in Germany a couple years back. A little background is needed - when I was growing up, it was still possible to buy very un-politically correct war comics in England. One of my favourite stories was about one "Sgt. Fury" of the RAF, a blond, blue-eyed mystery airman who would turn up from nowhere, take-off, perform some impossible air mission against all odds, and disappear as mysteriously as he appeared.

Adrian Warburton was as close to being a real life "Sgt. Fury" as it was about as possible to get in actual combat operations. He flew most of his career in the Mediterranean, as a recon pilot for the RAF. He was most famously involved with the island of Malta. Aircraft he flew were responsible for at least nine kills, which may not make him a great fighter ace, but his primary role was photo-missions - and some have claimed that Warburton may just have been the greatest recon pilot of all time.

He was known for being seemingly utterly fearless and for always, always getting his pictures. He once famously flew back to a fully alerted enemy harbour after overflying it once, just so that his crew could settle an argument over how many battleships they'd seen docked there.

One odd aspect of Warburtons career is that, although his skill in the air was often praised (he earned a DSO, DFC, and unsusually, a US DFC plus the eventual rank of Wing Commander), he never learned to take-off properly, and most accounts describe his take-off runs with a mixture of awe and terror.

Warburton disappeared over Germany in April 1944. He was 26 years old. His remains were not discovered for about 50 years, and it was typical of "Warbys" reputation that there was much speculation during that time that he somehow returned to Malta and lived the rest of his days in secret there. Sadly, this turned out not to be the case, but if you know of Warburtons exploits its easy to understand why many people could believe it.

Further information can be found in the books "Warburtons War" by Tony Spooner and "Fortress Malta" by James Holland.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Hey guys we never talked much about ww2 aces in the super thread that got archived. And for that matter, sabre and MIG-15 aces. 

Discuss! Who do you think are the most succesful aces from ww2 and korea? BEst in european and japanese and korean theatre?

A personal favourite of mine is a chap called Adrian Warburton. Some of you may recall news stories about a missing British "ace" whose remains were only recently recovered in Germany a couple years back. A little background is needed - when I was growing up, it was still possible to buy very un-politically correct war comics in England. One of my favourite stories was about one "Sgt. Fury" of the RAF, a blond, blue-eyed mystery airman who would turn up from nowhere, take-off, perform some impossible air mission against all odds, and disappear as mysteriously as he appeared.

Adrian Warburton was as close to being a real life "Sgt. Fury" as it was about as possible to get in actual combat operations. He flew most of his career in the Mediterranean, as a recon pilot for the RAF. He was most famously involved with the island of Malta. Aircraft he flew were responsible for at least nine kills, which may not make him a great fighter ace, but his primary role was photo-missions - and some have claimed that Warburton may just have been the greatest recon pilot of all time.

He was known for being seemingly utterly fearless and for always, always getting his pictures. He once famously flew back to a fully alerted enemy harbour after overflying it once, just so that his crew could settle an argument over how many battleships they'd seen docked there.

One odd aspect of Warburtons career is that, although his skill in the air was often praised (he earned a DSO, DFC, and unsusually, a US DFC plus the eventual rank of Wing Commander), he never learned to take-off properly, and most accounts describe his take-off runs with a mixture of awe and terror.

Warburton disappeared over Germany in April 1944. He was 26 years old. His remains were not discovered for about 50 years, and it was typical of "Warbys" reputation that there was much speculation during that time that he somehow returned to Malta and lived the rest of his days in secret there. Sadly, this turned out not to be the case, but if you know of Warburtons exploits its easy to understand why many people could believe it.

Further information can be found in the books "Warburtons War" by Tony Spooner and "Fortress Malta" by James Holland.

391584[/snapback]

Sounds VERY interesting! What did he fly?

[F-ZeroOne]

Hey guys we never talked much about ww2 aces in the super thread that got archived. And for that matter, sabre and MIG-15 aces. 

Discuss! Who do you think are the most succesful aces from ww2 and korea? BEst in european and japanese and korean theatre?

A personal favourite of mine is a chap called Adrian Warburton. Some of you may recall news stories about a missing British "ace" whose remains were only recently recovered in Germany a couple years back.

Further information can be found in the books "Warburtons War" by Tony Spooner and "Fortress Malta" by James Holland.

391584[/snapback]

Sounds VERY interesting! What did he fly?

391607[/snapback]

The short answer is "almost everything". He started with Martin Marylands - typically of Warburton, he wrecked one on take-off - but went on to fly recon Spitfires and Lightnings (he particularly liked the Lightning, as its contra-rotating props largely eliminated the torque that caused him so much trouble on take-off. On one occasion when an engine failed, he was catapaulted from the crashing aeroplane. When a ground crew arrived to clear up the mess, they asked where the pilot was. A bystander had to point up at the sky, where Warburton had already walked away from the incident and found another Lightning to use!). I believe he also flew the Mosquito on a number of occasions.

[Phalanx]

Quickly going back to the Tuskegee Airmen, I did some research on them and it turns out that there were absolutely No aces among the group despite them racking in 251 kills. The most kills attributed to any pilot was 4. Those men were Edward L. Toppins, of the 99th Fighter Squadron, and Lee A. Archer, of the 302nd

Fighter. Their record included more than 15,000 combat sorties. They destroyed 111 German airplanes (I think most of them were bombers since they were mainly an escort squadron) in the air and 150 on the ground. They also hit 950 rail cars, trucks and other vehicles, and one Tuskegee "Redtail" sunk a destroyer.

[Lynx7725]

Been meaning to post this for some time.

I recently bought a CafeReo Military Aircraft Series 1 JWings 1/144 F-14A. Here are some pics:

Just curious, how accurate to an F-14A is this?

[Phyrox]

(I think most of them were bombers since they were mainly an escort squadron)

You must have the role of fighter escort confused with interceptor.

One would expect an escort to engage mostly enemy fighters (who would be attacking the escorted bombers). Whether or not they actually did shoot down mostly fighters is another issue (although if memory serves me, that IS the case).

[reddsun1]

Quickly going back to the Tuskegee Airmen, I did some research on them and it turns out that there were absolutely No aces among the group despite them racking in 251 kills. The most kills attributed to any pilot was 4. Those men were Edward L. Toppins, of the 99th Fighter Squadron, and Lee A. Archer, of the 302nd

Fighter. Their record included more than 15,000 combat sorties. They destroyed 111 German airplanes (I think most of them were bombers since they were mainly an escort squadron) in the air and 150 on the ground. They also hit 950 rail cars, trucks and other vehicles, and one Tuskegee "Redtail" sunk a destroyer.

391745[/snapback]

To their credit, the Tuskeegee Airmen have a feather in their cap that places them among the creme de la creme. IIRC, they're the only WWII unit to have never lost a single escorted bomber to enemy fighters--no other unit can claim that. I guess flak doesn't count; that'd be a condition beyond anyone's control? They were certainly the "good shepherds."