Aircraft Vs Super Thread! 2

[Nied]

I imagine that the F-15FX is simply Boeing's latest version of the F-15I/K/SG: an F-15E with all the latest and coolest gadgets built in. Personally my money is on a Typhoon-J, though I hope that they'll buy an F-22J.

[Phalanx]

Man I wish my Japanese brethren would stick with trying to buy the F-22J and not those other European fighters. If Japan sticks with that F-15FX, then chances are that it might be a production line version of the ACTIV with the canards FBW controls, data link capabilties and thrust vectoring. Either way they should stick with F-22 IMHO.

Also, I found this link to Lockheeds new concept design for a stealth strike tanker below: http://www.alert5.com/

[Rocket Punch]

Phalanx, who is black, your mother or your father?

Sorry to go off topic but I'm just curious.

[Phalanx]

My mother, she's 2/4 black and 1/4 japanese 1/4 Native American which makes me 3/5 blaack 1/5 japanese and 1/5 Nato American.

Edited April 13, 2006 by Phalanx

[Rocket Punch]

Oh, okay. Carry on.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

My money's on the F15X. They've already got the logistics and support, and it would not surprise me if boeing let mitsubishi license build them(its happened before). Not to mention the JASDF is already familiar with the type, and its got the range they need for antishipping. I assume the F-15X is another teched out strike eagle, like the one Korea is getting and the one being offered to Singapore. It would also not surprise me if it came with AESA and AIM-9X.

Flight training might be easier as well since this is a newer eagle, this should be easier to fly than the F-15J, and plus the JASDF is already familiar with it. IF anything it would just need WSO training and some pilot familiarity. But this can be accomplished by pairing an F-15J pilot with a F-4E WSO or F-15DJ WSO. Then both can familiarize themselves and it shouldn't be too hard of a transition.

Eurofighter, F-22, and superbug would all take a whole new logistics chain, and pilot training and familiarity.

*Not to mention, perhaps an F-15J/DJ could be retrofitted into becoming an F-15X? Thus saving the JASDF even more money since they can make new versions out of older existing models*

Edited April 13, 2006 by Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0

[Phalanx]

Korea is getting the F-15X as well? I already know that they have their F-15E's but I thought that Lockheed was working with them to create some xperimental training aircraft.

[Loner]

What ever happened to Sweden's Saab Gripen?

[David Hingtgen]

Korea's F-15K's are being delivered, but they're not operational yet.

The Gripen has won a surprising number of orders. NOBODY is buying the Rafale, and few are buying the Typhoon. The Gripen is certainly the Eurocanard of choice.

PS--anyone get their Gripen book from SAAB? It's been months since we last discussed it.

Edited April 13, 2006 by David Hingtgen

[Mislovrit]

PS--anyone get their Gripen book from SAAB?  It's been months since we last discussed it.

I'm still waiting for it and iirc I ordered it on the same day you had mentioned it.

[Skull Leader]

PS--anyone get their Gripen book from SAAB?  It's been months since we last discussed it.

I'm still waiting for it and iirc I ordered it on the same day you had mentioned it.

390603[/snapback]

Same here, still waiting.

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

Ditto on the Gripen book.

As for Japan's choice, they seem to always insist on licence production (as with the F4 anf F15) but I don't see the US letting them licence produce the 22.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Ditto on the Gripen book.

As for Japan's choice, they seem to always insist on licence production (as with the F4 anf F15) but I don't see the US letting them licence produce the 22.

390627[/snapback]

I agree. Not to mention the JASDF is already familiar with the F-15 and judging by the advancement of technology built into the later models, I assume transition to a newer version of the eagle would be a lot faster than one to the F-22. Not to mention they just need to add a few more things to the logistics chain, not an entire facility dedicated to a new plane with no commonality at all with any other JASDF plane.

[Phalanx]

If thats the case with the F-15'S then I think that JASDF should stick with their F-15X license. I don't wanna keep my hopes up to high or anything but for some reason, I just have a strong feeling that the F-15X is just going to be a production line version of the ACTIV which would spawn single seater and dual seater variants, just what I've been waiting for! However, I could be wrong and it maybe something else in mind. I doubt that JASDF would receive the licensing rights by Lockheed to maufacture F-22's since Retracting the head Ter Ter insisted, but chances are that JASDF may order a small number of Raptors fresh from out America roughly about 15-20 of them and have them reserved for special operations IMHO.

I also think it's logical for JASDF to stick with the F-15 upgrade package because like Shin stated, this is the only fighter that they are intimately familiar with inside and out and it would be faster and easier for them to adjust to this upgrade and would cost them significantly less money to do so. To be honest, I believe that the new F-15's cockpit may hypothetically be a direct inplementation of the F-22's which may be a little to complicated and advanced for the veteran JASDF F-15 pilots but then will eventually get used to it since current F-15 models don't have FBW control systems. I also believe that if JASDF were to obtain licensing rights to maufacture F-22's, I have a good feeling that it may be in small numbers due to production cost of making such an advanced fighters and due to the fact that's there's too many F-15's stationed around Japan's air bases too phase them out completely from service.There's also a grim possibilty that JASDF will just produce or order a small number of F-22'S from America to simply supplement their F-15's. I think it would be good if Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Kawasaki, and Fuji managed to manufacture both F-15X's and F-22's in moderate numbers. In addition to all of this speculation about Japan's choice for a next generation fighter, I wonder what kind of new weapons system these new F-15X will use aside from those new sidewinders. Maybe they might add a large calibur machine gun that fires explosive rounds or the same type of ammunition that Russian fighter's use or a radical new prototype missle concept design.

P.S How long will JASDF continue to use the F-2's?

Edited May 15, 2006 by Phalanx

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

they never marketed the ACTIV or M/STD for export, both were tech demonstrators, so I doubt the F-15X is an ACTIV. Its like sukhoi, or MIG, niether the Su-47 or MIG 1.44 were ever produced in numbers for export nor advertised as such.

Also the avionics in the raptor are a lot easier to use than the eagles, so it shouldn't be difficult for the eagle pilots to transition. Remember the eagle still has gauges and dials, the F-22 is for the most part, equipped with a glass cockpit.

I don't see the need for more explosive rounds. What the US guns lack in firepower, they make up in quantity. The Russians do the opposite. Besides it would add weight to the fighter, and more weight is not good.

I just keep enviosioning that JASDF will get a japanese strike eagle with the latest enhancements with somethings omitted, and get the newest GE engines on par with the F-15K.

And if you played the flight sims....the F-22's got a hell of a lot easier to use avionics and flight systems than the eagle.

[Phalanx]

And if you played the flight sims....the F-22's got a hell of a lot easier to use avionics and flight systems than the eagle.

390654[/snapback]

Were you talking about the F-22 flight sims in particular or any flight sim that has the F-22 in it because I have Jetfighter V for my PC and you're right about it being easier to fly than the eagles but I've never played any F-15 PC flight sims to notice the difference.

[Knight26]

What it will all eventually come down to is politcal wheeling and dealing. As has been stated an upgraded F-15 will be much easier and cheaper for Japan to maintain and to purchase, they can easily buy 3 or 4 F-15s for the price of a single F-22. Would it be nice to see a production model F-15ACTIVE, hells yes, but it won't ever happen, as was stated it was merely a tech demonstrator, and NASA/DRYDEN still uses it to develop newer computer systems. But, all that aside what will happen is the that the USAF will have its reps talk to the JASDF reps, and explain to them, that if they buy F-22s that they can buy more F-22s, and maybe Isreal will buy some F-22s, or the UAE, or Saudi Arabia, or name another US ally who buys US aircraft. It really will be a wait and see thing for the rest of us. Will the export F-22 be different then the US version, of course, the engines will be down rated, the radar a less robust version, etc...

As for the ease of use of the different cockpit set ups. Yes, glass cockpits are easier to use, but analog instruments, dials, tapes, etc... tend to have their information stick in people's minds longer the straight digital information. Also don't make assumptions about how easy a plane is to fly by a simulator, trust me the real thing is so much different.

[Phalanx]

Also don't make assumptions about how easy a plane is to fly by a simulator, trust me the real thing is so much different.

390682[/snapback]

Man I overestimate flight sim's too much because actually I lied about saying the F-22 is easy to fly when it really isn't because when I played Jetfighter V for my PC, it was so difficult for me to shoot down a single enemy fighter, so I haven't played it in about 2 months or so but that's why I prefer console FS's because they are more easy to play than the PC counterparts becaue they are far more realistic than console FS's. I thought that I heard some F-22 pilot say that the F-22 was remotley easy to fly but that was probably just his honest opinion about it.

But, all that aside what will happen is the that the USAF will have its reps talk to the JASDF reps, and explain to them, that if they buy F-22s that they can buy more F-22s, and maybe Isreal will buy some F-22s, or the UAE, or Saudi Arabia, or name another US ally who buys US aircraft. It really will be a wait and see thing for the rest of us. Will the export F-22 be different then the US version, of course, the engines will be down rated, the radar a less robust version, etc...

390682[/snapback]

Man, I think it would suck if the F-22 made it in the hands of just about every single one of our allies arsenal even if it was bogged down in terms of performance so they can't surpass or equal the original F-22's we have because they have one the greatest stealth fighters of all with it's ups/downs. I just think that it would be good if Japan was the only one to have them and not S. Korea and the other's because I honestly think it would loose it's appeal and fear factor since it's somewhat of a one of a kind thing. What I'm trying to say is that when you have something good, you should make it very hard to get. It sucks when everybody has what you have and that sometimes it's good to be greedy with the things you got.

Edited April 13, 2006 by Phalanx

[Knight26]

Yeah but if we sell it to the Isrealis it might actually earn some A-A kills, most A-A kills made by US Airframes have been made by Isreali Pilots.

[Phyrox]

Additionally, US fighters already fire explosive rounds from their standard cannon.

Although the technical distinction between machine gun and cannon is slippery, most would agree that US fighters havn't had machine guns in quite a while.

From everything I've gathered, the 20mm cannon and its ammunition are quite adequate, and there is no need to adopt the Russian/Ukranian larger guns.

[Nied]

I'm a little squeamish about selling F-22s to Israel (considering how much of the tech we sell to them somehow winds up in Chinese hands), ditto with Saudi Arabia (though that's more because I fear an Ali-Cat repeat). Both countries seem happy to go with other airframes though (Israel is keen on the F-35's STOVL capabilities and the RSAF is buying Typhoons). If the F-15FX is yet another F-15K iteration than I imagine the Japanese won't save much money buying it over the Raptor (IIRC current fly-away cost of the F-15K is $90 million or so F-22 is $110-120 million though that could go down with export orders). Like I said my money is on the Typhoon or the Raptor: the Eurofighter consortium is offering indigenous production and all sorts of other sweat deals, while the Raptor is the most powerful fighter on the face of the planet, the Japanese like to have that kind of thing.

I wouldn't be surprised if we saw the RAAF taking a second look at the Raptor if the Japanese bought a fleet. They've never been completely happy with the JSF and a Raptor with underwing pylons would make an extremely good long range anti-shipping platform to replace their Aardvarks (I'm fairly certain it would do a good job taking over for their Hornets in the ADF role too).

[Phalanx]

You know, I'm not surprised that Japan won't buy Russian fighters because they hate Russia with an extreme passion but I was thinking why the hell not? After all,Their flankers boast superior manueverability that some European and American fighters lack but it appears that none of that matters to them since they can't trust Russians. In addition to this, I don't see why Japan is being far too picky about their next generation fighter. If I recall, the primary purpose of their JASDF branch is to provide homeland defence over their airspace from enemy aircraft and missle attacks and I think that the F-22 is an excellent choice for a replacement of their F-15's since they fulfill the specific role of being an interceptor (aside from the fact that it's a fighter/attacker), which is good if you consider the scenario of N. Korea launching 10 nukes to hit 10 major cities in Japan and then JASDF can deploy about 10 Raptor's to intercept and destroy them in a few minutes or so.

I also meant to include that I don't trust those Arab countries with our Raptors as well because they may use that technology against us. It's already bad enough as it is that Iran perfected missles that are able to slip past U.S radar systems as a result of us teaching them how to do so and I don't want that to happen with any other country that is ready to go to war with us. So in the end, we should give the Raptor to Japan, Britain, and Israel since these are the only allies we can trust.

[Nied]

It's not that I don't want to sell to any Arab country because they're Arab, but because I fear for their stability. The House of Saud is a monarchical dictatorship that's built it's power up by fomenting religious radicalism and now that's turning against them. Frankly I don't want King Bin Laden commanding squadrons of Islamic Republic of Arabia Air Force F-22s against his neighbors or us. I could see maybe selling them to the UAE if they wanted them, but I wouldn't personally unless I got some guarantees that they'd introduce some democratic reforms.

The reason that Japan doesn't buy Russian fighters is that technically speaking I believe that Russia and Japan are still in a state of war. Russia still occupies several of the northern islands. Generally you don't buy military equipment from your enemy. Just because two countries are friendly with us doesn't mean that they'll be friendly to each other. Hell one of the reasons the ROKAF is buying F-15Ks is to counter JASDF F-15Js. Even funnier is that Greece is buying brand new Block 50 F-16s to counter the numerically superior F-16s of the Turkish Air Force, this despite the fact that both are members of NATO, and thus are obligated to defend each other in the event one is attacked!

Edited April 13, 2006 by Nied

[Noyhauser]

I'm a little squeamish about selling F-22s to Israel (considering how much of the tech we sell to them somehow winds up in Chinese hands), ditto with Saudi Arabia (though that's more because I fear an Ali-Cat repeat).  Both countries seem happy to go with other airframes though (Israel is keen on the F-35's STOVL capabilities and the RSAF is buying Typhoons).  If the F-15FX is yet another F-15K iteration than I imagine the Japanese won't save much money buying it over the Raptor (IIRC current fly-away cost of the F-15K is $90 million or so F-22 is $110-120 million though that could go down with export orders).  Like I said my money is on the Typhoon or the Raptor: the Eurofighter consortium is offering indigenous production and all sorts of other sweat deals, while the Raptor is the most powerful fighter on the face of the planet, the Japanese like to have that kind of thing. 

I wouldn't be surprised if we saw the RAAF taking a second look at the Raptor if the Japanese bought a fleet.  They've never been completely happy with the JSF and a Raptor with underwing pylons would make an extremely good long range anti-shipping platform to replace their Aardvarks (I'm fairly certain it would do a good job taking over for their Hornets in the ADF role too).

390729[/snapback]

I doubt any country other than Japan will be able to recieve the F-22 in the forceeable future. Although Clinton Recommended that Israel get the F-22, the political climate in Washington towards Israel has soured appreciably since, especially with Israel's strenghthening links with China in defence cooperation, the AIPAC Spy scandal, and the recent paper by respected Neo-Realist John J. Mearsheimer.

The only thing I see hampering Japan's F-22 bid is that it doesn't really cover its needs. As several of you pointed out, Japan needs a Fighter bomber to replace the F-4s, which the F-22 is not (yet). Is a remanufacturing of some of the F-15Js possible? (idle musings) It seems to be a developing trend these days by companies, even if the original platforms aren't their own propritary property.

However I still think the Japanese would want the F-22 over the typhoon, not only to lay claim they have the best fighter in the world, but also for maintaining the strong link with the US. I can also see the politicos in the Wahsington using F-22 as a lever to get the bases issue sorted out in Japan, which has become an endless headache for them.

[Nied]

I doubt any country other than Japan will be able to recieve the F-22 in the forceeable future. Although Clinton Recommended that Israel get the F-22, the political climate in Washington towards Israel has soured appreciably since, especially with Israel's strenghthening links with China in defence cooperation,  the AIPAC Spy scandal, and the recent paper by respected Neo-Realist John J. Mearsheimer.

The only thing I see hampering Japan's F-22 bid is that it doesn't really cover its needs. As several of you pointed out, Japan needs a Fighter bomber to replace the F-4s, which the F-22 is not (yet). Is a remanufacturing of some of the F-15Js possible? (idle musings) It seems to be a developing trend these days by companies, even if the original platforms aren't their own propritary property.

However I still think the Japanese would want the F-22 over the typhoon, not only to lay claim  they have the best fighter in the world, but also for maintaining the strong link with the US. I can also see the politicos in the Wahsington using F-22 as a lever to get the bases issue sorted out in Japan, which has become an endless headache for them.

390746[/snapback]

Exactly. Militarily, the Typhoon or the Super Hornet are probably best for Japan. Geo politically the Raptor is probably best. As you mentioned it can be used as a bargaining chip to resolve other issues, it's a great way to strengthen ties to a traditional ally, and it constrains the freedom of action of a strategic competitor (the PLAAF is going to think twice about attacking a mainland Japan guarded by F-22Js). To top it all off it makes Raptors cheaper for us to buy as well.

[Mislovrit]

Additionally, US fighters already fire explosive rounds from their standard cannon.

Although the technical distinction between machine gun and cannon is slippery, most would agree that US fighters havn't had machine guns in quite a while.

From everything I've gathered, the 20mm cannon and its ammunition are quite adequate, and there is no need to adopt the Russian/Ukranian larger guns.

390720[/snapback]

One company is experimenting with 20mm polymer tip inert rounds which react rather rather explosively when hitting a plane.

[Skull Leader]

The more F-22s that get sold, the cheaper they'll get. The more we might be able to get for ourselves. (That's pretty much how the Tomcat program got saved. Iran ordered a bunch and drove down the production costs enough for us to fill our initial order.)

[Noyhauser]

The more F-22s that get sold, the cheaper they'll get. The more we might be able to get for ourselves. (That's pretty much how the Tomcat program got saved. Iran ordered a bunch and drove down the production costs enough for us to fill our initial order.)

390788[/snapback]

I wonder how much that will affect the decision to produce a new avionics set for the F-22, and what the cost will be for that (since they only have enough chips for the first set of fighters)

[Nied]

The more F-22s that get sold, the cheaper they'll get. The more we might be able to get for ourselves. (That's pretty much how the Tomcat program got saved. Iran ordered a bunch and drove down the production costs enough for us to fill our initial order.)

390788[/snapback]

I wonder how much that will affect the decision to produce a new avionics set for the F-22, and what the cost will be for that (since they only have enough chips for the first set of fighters)

390835[/snapback]

The Block 20 planes being rolled out later this year feature COTS avionics architecture. Most likely the current buy of chips will be used as spares for the earlier aircraft until they are upgraded.

Edited April 13, 2006 by Nied

[Noyhauser]

The Block 20 planes being rolled out later this year feature COTS avionics architecture.  Most likely the current buy of chips will be used as spares for the earlier aircraft until they are upgraded.

Oh, so the redesign has already been completed? I thought it would be quite some time before it is ready, and likely to be a political decision.

[Nied]

Aparently the hurdles for this program were exagerated by the GAO report. Last month's issue of Air International mentioned the Block 20 spec including COTS architechure. Now that I think about it, it's possible that the Block 20 spec wont be introduced until next year, I'll have to check that when I get home from work.

[Coota0]

  Just because two countries are friendly with us doesn't mean that they'll be friendly to each other. 

390744[/snapback]

I'm not sure I would say the Russians are a "friendly" nation.

[Nied]

I'm not sure I would say the Russians are a "friendly" nation.

390865[/snapback]

Well they aren't as close as the UK or Japan but I certainly wouldn't say they're unfriendly. Besides George Bush looked into Putin's soul and saw that it was good!

Edited April 14, 2006 by Nied

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Hey guys, do you think the F/A-18E/F would be a good F-2A/B replacement?

[Phalanx]

No IMHO because the Super Hornet is a little slower than the F-2A/B. The F-2 can do a solid Mach 2 and the Super Hornet can do about Mach 1.8. I also think that it's best if Japan gets some FB-22 Raptors to replace their fighter/bombers once Lockheed finishes producing them.

Also, here's a link to some info about the F-15K

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/f15/f-15k/

Edited April 14, 2006 by Phalanx