Macross Vs. Other Popular Anime

[Rocket Punch]

drama, sci-fi, action, intrigue, and romance as well as the Macross series does

sigh, I guess I've got to say it again, because Jelenien and Morpheus aren't going to. Legend of the Galactic Heroes aka Helgensagen Von Kosmenief, is actually one series that outshines Macross on most of these categories. Its a massive sci-fi Epic that spans 110 episodes, thousands of characters, and absolutely fantastic battles. They are more realistic than Macross (millions die as do important characters in battles). Finally while the series does not use pop music, it does use classical music, which fits in better than any pop music ever could.The only thing that it lacks is a true love story, but you won't notice it.

LOGH is likely my favorite anime series... and I've watched quite a bit in my day.

379662[/snapback]

I've always wanted to watch LoGH but never got around to it.

Is there a US domestic release of it?

[Noyhauser]

drama, sci-fi, action, intrigue, and romance as well as the Macross series does

sigh, I guess I've got to say it again, because Jelenien and Morpheus aren't going to. Legend of the Galactic Heroes aka Helgensagen Von Kosmenief, is actually one series that outshines Macross on most of these categories. Its a massive sci-fi Epic that spans 110 episodes, thousands of characters, and absolutely fantastic battles. They are more realistic than Macross (millions die as do important characters in battles). Finally while the series does not use pop music, it does use classical music, which fits in better than any pop music ever could.The only thing that it lacks is a true love story, but you won't notice it.

LOGH is likely my favorite anime series... and I've watched quite a bit in my day.

379662[/snapback]

I've always wanted to watch LoGH but never got around to it.

Is there a US domestic release of it?

379664[/snapback]

No, there never has been, although Central anime (who did the M7 fansubs) have been working on a new complete series. The only option is Bittorrent.

[chrono]

For me, anime has always been a difficult medium to enjoy, mostly due to the fact that I despise childrens entertainment, even years ago when I was a child.  Since most anime is geared towards children or adolescents, I find it hard to suffer the inherent limitations of such sheltered productions.  The anime I really like is the more serious, maturely themed films or series which are sadly in the minority.  Sometimes, I'll find a childrens anime production so amazing that I'll embrace it, but this is rare (such cases would be Spirited Away or Princess Mononoke).

Japanese live action film has always been easier for me to enjoy, featuring more stories to which I can relate.

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I totally agree! That's why I'm such a hugh fan(whore) of Satoshi Kon's. Hopefully Makoto Shinkai will broaden his horizons and start to move towards a more mature style and depth and not continue with his style of 'couple' storys.

Anyways, bot, there just aren't many that equal Macross. In character design, mecha design, ship design, story, or sheer movement.

Legend of the Galactic Heroes puts out a great effort but it's plotting story can really throw viewers off and it gets overly political sometimes. Also it didn't help that it was seemingly everyway in a somewhat scattershot fashion continously bouncing around between characters like one would read about in a modern pulp thriller. Sure the format works, just not the way the were using it because it very easly leads to confusion. The first 12 episodes for me were fine examples as to how not to make an anime for the public.

Crest & Banner of the Stars, another great effort but one that just didn't translate well at all their source materials. It starts out well enough but it depends overly much on cinematics to convey the importance of the scenes, so there are alot of slow, awkward pauses, and needlessly silence moments that really could've flushed out the universes background or really created deeper and more vivid characterizations(Spore for example). But it too tended to follow a book format that doesn't really suit a half-hour show format. To make matters worse they started to use larger amounts of 3d towards the series end and since the studio didn't have the ability to put forth a great effort the 3d is terrible looking and is nearly gradeschooler in quality.

Eureka 7, frankly it's almost to early to truely compare..... But it's characters come through and are vivid enough that you can start to understand them surprisingly quickly. Unfortunatly it depends on the now well-established "Boy & His 'Bot" format with plenty of pseudo-religion-save-the-planet & NGE thrown in to wonderfully muddle the story under wannabe intellectualism. The pacing is surprising well done and doesn't needlessly waste alot of the viewers time by bounding around alot between apposing sides for several episodes at a time. Surprisingly though the animation is some of the smoothest and has the best intergrated 3D/2D in any anime to date. There are also 'hints' that point towards a future quality level that may just surpass the 1985 level.

[Graham]

I've watched and owned a lot of anime in the past 20 years, but Macross and all it's sequels (especially DYRL, Plus & 7) will always be the number one anime franchise for me. The story, mecha designs, fight scenes, characters, background music and songs all seem to gel together for me much better than in any other anime.

I generally tend to watch mecha anime over other genres and prefer anime with a more serious tone to it. That's not to say I don't watch other types of anime, I do, but 'Real Robot' type mecha anime will always my favourite.

Here's a list of my non-Macross personal all-time favorites: -

• Blue Gender, TV series.
  
• Bubble Gum Crisis OVA.
  
• Megazone 23 Part 1, Movie.
  
• Borgman, TV Sevies.
  
• AD Police, OVA.
  
• Beserk, TV series.
  
• Wicked City, Movie.
  
• Jin-Roh, Movie.
  
• Perfect Blue, Movie.
  
• Char's Counter Attack, Movie.
  
• 0080 War in the Pocket OVA.
  
• 08th MS Team, OVA.
  
• Laputa, Movie.
  
• Nausica, Movie.
  
• Guyver, OVA.
  
• Ledgend of the Galactic Heros, TV series.
  
• Akira, Movie.
  
• Combatter V, TV series (the only super robot anime I like).
  

A few animes that nearly, but don't quite make my all-time favourites list include: -

• Orguss, TV Series.
  
• Mospeada, TV series.
  
• Gall Force (various OVAs).
  
• VOTOMS, TV series.
  

While I've also enjoyed other more recent hit series such as GITS SAC 1 & 2 & Cowboy Bebop I wouldn't count them amongst my favorites.

Certain fan-favourites that seem to be popular with the masses, such as Evangelion & Zeta Gundam, I think are way over-rated.

Graham

[Mr March]

*snip*

I totally agree! That's why I'm such a hugh fan(whore) of Satoshi Kon's. Hopefully Makoto Shinkai will broaden his horizons and start to move towards a more mature style and depth and not continue with his style of 'couple' storys.

Anyways, bot, there just aren't many that equal Macross. In character design, mecha design, ship design, story, or sheer movement.

379684[/snapback]

Satoshi Kon's work is very good, but I'm sad to say I've seen too little. Millenium Actress is the only film I've seen in full, catching just bits and pieces of Perfect Blue and Tokyo Godfathers. I will see Perfect Blue in full very soon, because it's on my list of films to see (I am also a big fan of thrillers). I'm up to 101 films so far this year

To be honest, I didn't really like Voices of A Distant Star. It appealed to me more on a compositional level rather than the story itself. However, I do acknowledge that Makoto Shinkai is an innovative director worth watching. I'd like to see "Kumo no mukô, yakusoku no basho" simply because the setting is so damn interesting.

[Black Valkyrie]

Certain fan-favourites that seem to be popular with the masses, such as Evangelion & Zeta Gundam, I think are way over-rated.

Graham

379685[/snapback]

Also including Gundam Seed and its sequel.

Edited March 13, 2006 by Black Valkyrie

[F360°]

I just finished watching the Evangelion series, and I am extremely disappointed. I haven't seen the movie yet, so maybe my perception will change, but as of now I regard this series as an overblown, overrated mess.

The way the series concluded is reminiscent of how the Matrix movies just imploded at the end; so much promise with so little to show for it. I just can't fathom how some consider Evangelion the greatest anime of all time.

To be honest with you, as soon as I finished the series, I simply shook my head and popped in my new copy of Flashback: 2012. I think I'm now convinced that Macross is just a freak anomaly that will never be duplicated in the anime world.

379364[/snapback]

Well, you are dead wrong on the overblown and overrated mess part because your timing is over 10 years off. The main difference is that you are just watching the Evangelion series now, with a popular series like this, you are already filled with high promises, and it's very highly that you already have some knowlegde of the characters and lots of spoilers from internet or other sources. Also you will not think the artwork and quality is A+. You can even watch the Movies right after the "I want to kill someone right now ep 25 and 26". I can understand that you don't like it. but labeling it as to much promise,overblown, and overated just because you watch it 10 years late is just wrong.

Its totally different if you watch it without knowing anything, enjoying high quality TV series animation that's packed with detail, and get to know the characters one by one from your TV screen without any other sources like message boards , games, cards, books, figures, wall scroll, friends, etc. Then once you know almost all the characters, they give you the WORST "Congratulation message ever".. and that was it. Movie? what movies? AACCKKKKK

I'm a EVA fan. I do no think it's the greatest series ever, but I place it among my top Anime list because it's a series that was able to mess me up a bit( kill kill kill)

Oh Fushigi Yugi is a very good series too. It's pretty old, I guess it's consider a chick series but it really good, and sad at times,, I even cry in one of the eps ( well just a couple of tears )

Edited March 13, 2006 by F360°

[Black Valkyrie]

Oh Fushigi Yugi is a very good series too.  It's pretty old,  I guess it's consider a chick series but it really good, and sad at times,, I even cry in one of the eps ( well just a couple of tears )

379786[/snapback]

I really love that series. Also you should try Here is Greenwood, only an OVA six episodes.

Edited March 13, 2006 by Black Valkyrie

[Isoquant]

Well, you are dead wrong on the overblown and overrated mess part because your timing is over 10 years off.  The main difference is that you are just watching the Evangelion series now,  with a popular series like this, you are already filled with high promises, and it's very highly that you already have some knowlegde of the characters and lots of spoilers from internet or other sources.  Also you will not think the artwork and quality is A+.  You can even watch the Movies right after the "I want to kill someone right now ep 25 and 26".  I can understand that you don't like it. but labeling it as to much promise,overblown, and overated just because you watch it 10 years late is just wrong.

379786[/snapback]

Um... I'm not sure what you mean by the "10 years too late" comment. No offense, but I think it's stipulated on some big assumptions on your part (with an air of condescension as well).

Honestly, I had never even heard of this series until about 3 months ago. I saw a trailer for it on an ADV disk, so I asked a few people about it and read a brief review or two, all of which described the series with superlatives.

At that point, about all I knew was that it was extremely popular and had a fanatical following. Going into it I didn't know a single character's name, and had only the most rudimentary knowledge of the plot (humans use mecha to fight off beings called angels - really that's all I knew). I didn't come in contact with any spoilers (wouldn't that require some research?), until AFTER I had viewed the entire series.

It's not like this is Star Wars, Star Trek, or something else that's been at the forefront of the American popular culture and the population's collective conscience for years. Someone who isn't part of the anime fan community probably has never even heard of it.

As for the "dated" art and animation - which I actually enjoyed - I'm an old Macross/Robotech fan, so it doesn't take much to impress me. I didn't think of these things as detractors at all.

No, when it all boils down to it, I just didn't find the story all that compelling, and felt that the series severely lost its way over the second half. At times I felt like I was being teased, like the show had flashes of brilliance, but in the end I was just disappointed. So the only "high promises" I had were born from watching the first few episodes (which I really enjoyed), not from any a priori knowledge I had of the series.

That doesn't make me "dead wrong" anymore than someone who states that they find prime New York strip steak to be vastly overrated. It's just a matter of taste.

Edited March 14, 2006 by Isoquant

[F360°]

The series came out 10 years ago so I'm correct on you watching it 10 years late since you just started watching it 3 months ago. There were offical toys and offical US VHS tapes from somewhat 10 years ago. You may not heard of the exact name of the series but I'm sure you have seen this series related product one way or another.... also before you even started watching it you already knew that it was extremely popular and had a fanatical following. That alone is enough to fill you with high promises, most likey you set your standards too high.

As for the dated animation, if you enjoy it now, think of how much more you would have enjoy if you watch this 10 years ago, when it's not DATED animation but top of the line animation which most other animation TV series looks like b rated movies compare to this.

Like I said before timing plays a major role too.,, if you never watched STAR WAR before and only started now you would not enjoy it as if you watch it years ago. You will grade it differently with todays standards. The same for Macross TV series, if you just started watching now, I'm sure the animation quality on some of the eps is already bad enough to make newbies not feel like continue the series. But if you watch it years ago, it was like, YEah, baby,, this is awesome

Edited March 14, 2006 by F360°

[Lacerta]

My first anime was Star Blazers/Space Battleship Yamato and from then on, it was downhill from there. That is, until I saw (not the whole series mind you) a couple episodes of Robotech. From the moment I saw my first glimpse of a transformable airplane, I knew it was a cool series and wanted to know more, and my friends had a lot more knowledge than I did about where Robotech came from. The Palladium RPG was where I first learned about Macross. I guess the only trouble was, there was just a book for me to read that discussed the series, since they stopped showing Robotech ages ago.

Fast forward about 14 years, and I'm in the anime section at Best Buy, looking for an anime series and there is Super Dimension Fortress Macross, newly dubbed calling out for me to buy it. In the intervening years I had been exposed to many different anime series, hoping that someday I'd be able to watch SDF:Macross in its unedited form, not wanting to settle for Robotech's version. In that time I started watching Akira, Cowboy Bebop, Fullmetal Alchemist and my admitted guilty pleasure, InuYasha. I also enjoy Neon Genesis Evangelion...as a matter of fact, that's the DVD set I was looking for at Best Buy when I discovered SDF:Macross on the shelf. So I guess you could say I've been lead back into the fold (no pun intended) by a series some of y'all hate

Now that I've seen the first six episodes...I want more! I read some of you guys don't like the dub, but since Fullmetal Alchemist is ending soon, its good that my buddy Edward Elric gets a new life as Hikaru Ichijo.

[Isoquant]

The series came out 10 years ago so I'm correct on you watching it 10 years late since you just started watching it 3 months ago.  There were offical toys and offical US VHS tapes  from somewhat 10 years ago.  You may not heard of the exact name of the series but I'm sure you have seen this series related product one way or another.... also before you even started watching it you already knew that it was extremely popular and had a fanatical following.  That alone is enough to fill you with high promises, most likey you set your standards too high.

380067[/snapback]

Well, I will admit that I probably did have my standards set too high, but primarily because the only anime I had ever really gotten into was Macross. This may sound naive, but for awhile I just assumed that alot of anime was of that caliber (see my original post). I know better now.

With NGE, I was VERY impressed with the first 5-6 episodes, and so that sort of set me up for disappointment as well because I really had my hopes up by then. And by the time I got to those last few episodes... uh... I just don't see how anyone can take anything positive from them. It seems like they were either rushed or they were just trying too hard.

But, honestly, as a whole I don't think it's a terrible series, and I'm still hopeful that the movie might change my opinion somewhat. Overall, I've been able to stick with it longer than most anime. It's just that, at this point, I still view the thing as extremely overrated.

[myk]

A good story, or at least one that a person appreciates, isn't affected by time, so it doesn't matter when someone experiences it. Also, a good story will stand the test of time and defeat newer, flashier stories. For example, I would rather be tied to a chair, with my eyes taped open and forced to watch DYRL for the rest of my days, than to see Ultraviolet with Milla-what's-her-face as my date...

As for 'Eva, I enjoyed Shinji's realization that his life and happiness were completely his to realize, and no one else's; a valuable sign of maturity and development that the finger-pointing-population on this planet should take heed. I also liked the the sub-plot involving a shadow organization bent on reducing the human race into one singular consciousness.

To each their own though. Hell, I never liked SDF: Macross...

[Mr March]

I have to say Isoquant is on the level about NGE and viewing a series 10 years after initial release is certainly no excuse for poor quality anime. By that logic, no one should ever enjoy an anime more than 10 years old, nor should one ever enjoy an older anime over a newer one. The anime I enjoy fails such an absurd benchmark time and again.

Hell, I'm a big fan of film and I adore black and white films made 10-30 years before I was even born. Some even have those precious "special effects" so important to the fellows of my generation. Many of those old films compete quite well against their modern contemporaries, a little too well I'm sad to say for the state of film art.

Quite frankly, if the quality of any anime series is dependant upon watching it no later than a few years after initial release, that's a big warning sign it's a poor anime series. That sort of brevity earns justifiable labels like forgettable and expired.

Edited March 14, 2006 by Mr March

[chrono]

Wicked City.... damn totally forgot about that old stroke video. Neat art, but the story was kinda lame.

Yeah 'Voices' wasn't as good as it could've been. Far too melodramatic for my tastes. I found the cat story better in many ways. His second movie, to be honest feels alot like his 'Voices', but shows maturity in his writing ability and the films visual quality shows HUGH steps forward.

BTW, I found some of Kon's early work as a mangka. Surprisingly well written, though not as well written as "A Yokohama Shopping Trip".

[Mr March]

Wicked City.... damn totally forgot about that old stroke video. Neat art, but the story was kinda lame.

Yeah 'Voices' wasn't as good as it could've been. Far too melodramatic for my tastes. I found the cat story better in many ways. His second movie, to be honest feels alot like his 'Voices', but shows maturity in his writing ability and the films visual quality shows HUGH steps forward.

BTW, I found some of Kon's early work as a mangka. Surprisingly well written, though not as well written as "A Yokohama Shopping Trip".

380118[/snapback]

Sounds encouraging. It's been too long since I've enjoyed a good anime film, so this talk has me interested again. I gotta go rent something tomorrow

[Mowe]

..oops, sorry, hit blank, try again with next post.

Edited March 14, 2006 by Mowe

[F360°]

I have to say Isoquant is on the level about NGE and viewing a series 10 years after initial release is certainly no excuse for poor quality anime.  By that logic, no one should ever enjoy an anime more than 10 years old, nor should one ever enjoy an older anime over a newer one.  The anime I enjoy fails such an absurd benchmark time and again.

Hell, I'm a big fan of film and I adore black and white films made 10-30 years before I was even born.  Some even have those precious "special effects" so important to the fellows of my generation.  Many of those old films compete quite well against their modern contemporaries, a little too well I'm sad to say for the state of film art.

Quite frankly, if the quality of any anime series is dependant upon watching it no later than a few years after initial release, that's a big warning sign it's a poor anime series. That sort of brevity earns justifiable labels like forgettable and expired.

380102[/snapback]

Well you will still enjoy it, but you will probably not enjoy it as much as you would have if you watch it at it's peak.

Since you said you are a big fan of film and adores those black and white films so much, can you imagine yourself watching it when they just release? I bet you will enjoy it even more. This is of course base on typical average joe watching this black and white film.

And if you are treating it as art then anything can be the greatest thing ever.

[F360°]

I tried getting into Cowboy Bebop but the story didn't hold me. However I was always impressed with the production values of the show. The animation was great and the music was varied and interesting, it seemed like a professional production versus the regular cheesy synthesizer stuff I usually hear.

The trend I notice about the stuff I watch recently and don't like is alot of it looks really good, there are some nice visuals, but the stories are usually flat. Goldenboy, albeit its an older one now, was a really nice surprise. Comedy is one of those things that is hard to pull off and I don't see many animes that quite get it down.

380121[/snapback]

yeah, the stories out right now aren't as good as before, and you are right unfornately that is the trend right now.

Golden boy is one of the funniest borderline comedy I have seen. only 6 eps. it's well worth the watch. There's also a Manga out for it so you can continue his advanture

[Mr March]

Well you will still enjoy it, but you will probably not enjoy it as much as you would have if you watch it at it's peak.

Since you said you are a big fan of film and adores those black and white films so much, can you imagine yourself watching it when they just release?  I bet you will enjoy it even more.  This is of course base on typical average joe watching this black and white film.

And if you are treating it as art then anything can be the greatest thing ever.

380141[/snapback]

Who is to say? It could go either way; taken in by the hype of the moment or turned off by fan praise for such a lousy anime. Such an anachronistic arguement is mental masturbation at best.

You do realize that black and white films are still made yes? I point to Schindler's List as an easily recognizable film which I did see upon release. But I do wonder, how would you collect your bet for Seven Samurai?

Rest assured, NGE will never suffer the label of "art"

Edited March 14, 2006 by Mr March

[Mowe]

I am a big fan of the Eva series (but Macross comes first of course), so I feel the need to lend a bit of support to F360°.

Overrated or not, I suppose it is a very personal thing and it certainly depends on how much the person wants to get into the Eva world. But to me it was always clear that the Eva series had been one of the more influential anime from the 90s, much like the way Macross did for the 80s.

The Eva series cannot be judged alone without the two followed up movies. I have posted this before on another topic, and hope this could convince a few more people to give the Eva another chance if they’re disappointed by the TV series:

“In one of Mamoru Oshii’s (GITS) interview, he commented on the drama aspects of recent theatrical releases and confessed that DYRL along with the Eva movies were the only films that he could remember in the past 20 years that was done successfullyâ€

If you don’t trust me or F360°, you can at least trust Oshii.

Bty, I think most of you do know that, a lot of the backbone staff worked on DYRL, also worked the Eva series.

I'm a EVA fan.  I do no think it's the greatest series ever, but I place it among my top Anime...

379786[/snapback]

[F360°]

"Mr March" I do enjoy Schindler's List, and I also enjoy Seven Samurai. But I know I would have think Seven Samurai is way more awsome if I were to seen it back in the days many many years ago. I will play samuai games for months til end,, I might even start learning Martial arts.

But all the films you talk about is live action film and not animation.

Black and white animation back then was Mickey mouse, popeye, Betty Boop,etc. Most of which are comedy. I'm pretty sure the kids today will mostly want to watch something else instead of those. But if it was back in the day, kid will rush home instead of going to play in the park just to watch those kind of cartoons.

Thanks for the support "Mowe"

damd it, it seems I got my head stuck on EVA again, and forgot to post other anime series.

Martian Successor Nadesico (space, Mecha, war, comedy, action, etc)

Gundam 08 MS team OVA (mecha, action)

Tenchi Muyo!...the original OVA (comedy)

Irresponsible captain tylor (spaceship, comedy)

Golden Boy (borderline comedy with a bit of nudely here and there and toilets)

Rurouni Kenshin (adventure)

Fushigi Yugi ( adventure)

Edited March 14, 2006 by F360°

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I must confess that I love brainless action anime and am a little biased. So I don't have as much attachment to anime as 'art'.

When I watched ninja scroll I loved that it had a very predictable story and along with Street Fighter II: The animated movie, all I care for was how cool the fighting was.

It's kind of like people who only choose to watch a specific genre like horror, sci-fi, or kung fu movies. I thought macross had that element of cool factor due to its mecha design as a kid and really the story was just the excuse to base around having these robots battle against each other. Same thing with yamato: I liked the idea of the dogfights in space against aliens, and will gravitate towards shows like bebop and outlaw star and anything with action, fighting, mecha, and lots of explosions.

When people criticised gundam wing and say how crap it is (and thier opinions are valid) I was just sitting back and enjoying the fireworks and not taking the show so seriously. (same with G gundam or Dragon Ball Z which I enjoyed for the ride mainly)

I just think a show doesn't have to be a work of art to be enjoyable if you are a fan of the specific genre. Like fashion though, once in a while you got to try something different and go beyong the boundaries and this is what I think shows like Gits and Eva achieve. I like that they add an element of depth to a normally tired genre.

I grew up watching movies like Rocky, the rambo movies, diehard, (this is why I liked the main character in ninja scroll, he kinda acts like a 'bruce willis' for anime) highlander, anything with arnie in it, star wars, aliens, predator, robocop etc so I think these are ingredients in a show that I like:

guns,

mindless violence, (any fight that ends with violent 'creative' deaths like in ninja scroll or samurai champloo but not too cheesy with overreliance on super moves)

explosions,

robots/mecha (giant, transformable, combinable, powered armor or any combination of the above)

war,

tits (I think hentai has some great story and imagination put into it compared to porn, look at black bible for example. You can totally watch this for its story)

twists, (to keep you coming back for the next episode because it is so gripping)

mystery, (something that makes you think and analyse over and over again on repeat views to get more info)

...and in general is epic enough to be worth watching for 50 eps. (macross 7 didn't have the same epic feel that the orignal series had and felt padded with filler imo. If they ever do a new series I would prefer it be more like the original or like macross plus)

I will probably get around to watching LOTGH though even though I like the brainless stuff. I think how stuff is animated is also important because I tend to prefer a more stylised action than realism. (take the battroid dogfights in macross plus and the inhuman manuevers you see in a newtype mech fight in Char's Counterattack for example. (ie seeing people dodge the multiple bit attacks) Although shows like Gundam 8th MS team are cool for physics, I have always felt that newtypes are the 'jedi' of the gundam universe and the universe is meant to cater to them. So it would be like preffering the old jedi saber duels (slow fighting) from the OT over the PQ (everyone including old men with walking sticks become ninjas) just because of nostalgiac bias if you know what I mean. I like speed.

So yeah anything with the above ingredients I will end up watching. I think popular doesn't always mean it is a masterpiece of art. Just that fans have a common interest and spread thier apreciation of a series to others and this is how something becomes classic to fans of that series when there is enough hype for it.

Edited March 14, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Mr March]

I am a big fan of the Eva series (but Macross comes first of course), so I feel the need to lend a bit of support to F360°.

Overrated or not, I suppose it is a very personal thing and it certainly depends on how much the person wants to get into the Eva world.  But to me it was always clear that the Eva series had been one of the more influential anime from the 90s, much like the way Macross did for the 80s. 

The Eva series cannot be judged alone without the two followed up movies.  I have posted this before on another topic, and hope this could convince a few more people to give the Eva another chance if they’re disappointed by the TV series:

“In one of Mamoru Oshii’s (GITS) interview, he commented on the drama aspects of recent theatrical releases and confessed that DYRL along with the Eva movies were the only films that he could remember in the past 20 years that was done successfully†

If you don’t trust me or F360°, you can at least trust Oshii.

380145[/snapback]

Oshii's opinions are like anyone else's and this is coming from a man who dislikes Myazaiki's work (of which I'm a fan), so I'll trust in my own opinion.

Regardless, this is not a debate over impact on anime fandom or Mamoru Oshii's personal anime film top forty. The arguement that Isoquant (or anyone for that matter) is incapable of forming a valid opinion about NGE because he didn't watch the thing upon release is ridiculous, not to mention a position impossible to support or prove.

Many would use the NGE films arguement as analgous to book adaptations, and have in the case of films like Akira. Again, we are forced to analyze the worth of the original production on it's own merit (or lack thereof), without the movies. If additional explanation is required via movies, the series has failed to communicate meaning. Again, this is the sign of poor work.

If NGE is so weak an anime that it fails to inspire an audience a mere 10 years after release, that is the fault of NGE, not Isoquant or any other potentially disgruntled would-be viewers. And speaking as someone who watched NGE only 5 years after release, I can assure you my opinion would not change from distaste to adoration if I watched it back in 1995...but you'll have to take my word for it

You can at least trust that.

[Mr March]

"Mr March" I do enjoy Schindler's List, and I also enjoy Seven Samurai.  But I know I would have think Seven Samurai is way more awsome if I were to seen it back in the days many many years ago.  I will play samuai games for months til end,, I might even start learning Martial arts.

But all the films you talk about is live action film and not animation. 

Black and white animation back then was Mickey mouse, popeye, Betty Boop,etc.  Most of which are comedy.  I'm pretty sure the kids today will mostly want to watch something else instead of those.  But if it was back in the day, kid will rush home instead of going to play in the park just to watch those kind of cartoons. 

380146[/snapback]

The analogy to film is sound. Anime (especially in the case of tv series) has not progressed to such a degree that one see's Anime Friend watching NGE but is expecting GITS 2.

Debating how much or how little one would enjoy an anime seen during release or years after is superfluous. All that matters is what NGE is worth to a new audience right now, and it's obviously found wanting. The blame for NGE's lack of sustainability rests upon it's own shoulders and Isoquant's opinion of NGE is as valid as that of anyone else.

Btw, I'd love to take your money on Seven Samurai. Unless you have a time machine "hidden in that bodice of yours - unlikely - " I'll be only to happy to supply my paypal addy so you may make a deposit

Edited March 14, 2006 by Mr March

[F360°]

"Debating how much or how little one would enjoy an anime seen during release or years after is superfluous"

of course it is, since the average joe would mostly enjoy it the most during the time of release, or close to the time of the release instead of 10 years later. the only people that can say otherwise are exceptions.

Are you saying you will enjoy Macross the same way just as much as before if you only started watching it right now instead of years ago? No you will not.

I don't have a time machine, but I'll be happy to give you my money for a trip back in time. But guess what? you don't have one either. All you have is "mental masturbation remarks"

Edited March 15, 2006 by F360°

[Isoquant]

Are you saying you will enjoy Macross the same way just as much as before if you only started watching it right now instead of years ago?  No you will not.

380368[/snapback]

Well...

Actually, I also just saw Macross Plus for the first time and absolutely loved it despite being 10 years late for that as well.

And, yes, my expectations were extremely high for it since I already had some familiarity with the original series. In fact, they were MUCH higher than the expectations I had for NGE.

I'm sorry, but I just don't take much stock in your contemporary viewing theory. The simple fact is that I watched something based on its substantive merits and didn't find it to be the masterpiece that others have claimed it to be. That's just my opinion, and at the present time it hasn't changed.

I find it kind of humorous that you think you have the whole reason pegged, like there's some formula for this, i.e., "the animation is older" or "you weren't around when it came out" or "you had too many preconceived notions prior to seeing it".

No, no, and no. I was just extremely disappointed by it, and then shocked later on to find out that some people really praise it to the degree that they do.

[crasis]

Are you saying you will enjoy Macross the same way just as much as before if you only started watching it right now instead of years ago?  No you will not.

380368[/snapback]

Hrrm. I really have to disagree there. A good story is a good story--it shouldn't matter WHEN you experience it. My fiance just got into Macross about two years ago and loves it just as dearly as I do. I think that example alone invalidates your comments.

And damn! I just enjoyed the hell out of the first three books of George R. R. Martin's 'A Song of Ice and Fire' series, but I suppose my love for them is somehow tainted because I didn't read them on the dates they were published...

Edited March 15, 2006 by crasis

[chrono]

NGE comes off as an experimental anime, though I'm sure many people believe it to be far more of an 'enlighted' anime.

*I would never call an anime that showed that the main characters parents delibrately abusing the main character "enlighted" in any fashion!*

Which I find funny, because it's really not. It failed in it's most basic requirements and that was to convey what needed to be convey'ed within it's alloted time. There was some much symbolism thrown at the veiwer that unless they did research on them(or had a degree in them) the viewer never really had an idea of what the story was about.

To this day, for myself, the last 2 episodes of the series sound more like a therapy session then an ending.

[Mr March]

"Debating how much or how little one would enjoy an anime seen during release or years after is superfluous"

of course it is, since the average joe would mostly enjoy it the most during the time of release, or close to the time of the release instead of 10 years later.  the only people that can say otherwise are exceptions. 

Are you saying you will enjoy Macross the same way just as much as before if you only started watching it right now instead of years ago?  No you will not.

I don't have a time machine, but I'll be happy to give you my money for a trip back in time.  But guess what? you don't have one either.  All you have is "mental masturbation remarks"  

380368[/snapback]

Sorry, but your arguement is just degrading into a debate about semantics. The idea that affinity for a given anime can be quanitifed using vagaries like "as much or more" or "bet you would have" is pure nonsense. There is no formula you can apply carte blanche that explains why someone was dissappointed with an overrated anime that you just happen to adore. Your arguement has already failed to stand against even the most cursory examples that contradict it, yet it continues down this silly slope.

Needless to say, Isoquant is far from "dead wrong" and his opinion of NGE formed 9 years after the last of the releases is just as relevant and valid as any. Rationalize however you must, but you're far from a persuasive arguement if you continue debating with such reasoning fallacies.

[Mowe]

Ha..ha.. Mr March, you are one hard customer to please or you must really hate NGE. F360°, I think we better pack up our gears and save our breath.

Like I said, whether anyone likes NGE depends very much on the person. You had your reasons not to like it and I had mine for liking it. That would probably be a fair comment.

Though, mind you, I kept my last post short not because I had little valid arguments, just didn't think this was the right thread to go full length debate about NGE. Start another thread specifically for NGE and I am happy to go full blown with my opinions.

Yes, you don't have to take Oshii's words, but he is not too shabby as an anime director, his opinion should count for something... Beside, I posted his comments because he actually made a very specific link between Macross and NGE (which is what this thread is about after all, isn't it?)

...incapable of forming a valid opinion about NGE...

380260[/snapback]

Edited March 15, 2006 by Mowe

[Mr March]

Ha..ha.. Mr March, you are one hard customer to please or you must really hate NGE.  F360°, I think we better pack up our gears and save our breath.

*snip*

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No doubt I'm somewhat stubborn, but do give me the benefit of the doubt. The fact that NGE is caught in this debate is really inconsequential. It could be any old anime for all I care. The point is, anyone is free to either enjoy it or criticize it at anytime without some "best before" date invalidating their opinion

I do respect Oshii very much, how could I not as a fan of his many films. But his politics are not necessarily my own. Come to think of it, I've yet to find a filmmaker I admire who's love of film is quite as broad or diverse as my own. They all seem to hate something I love

Edited March 15, 2006 by Mr March

[F360°]

"Debating how much or how little one would enjoy an anime seen during release or years after is superfluous"

of course it is, since the average joe would mostly enjoy it the most during the time of release, or close to the time of the release instead of 10 years later.  the only people that can say otherwise are exceptions. 

Are you saying you will enjoy Macross the same way just as much as before if you only started watching it right now instead of years ago?  No you will not.

I don't have a time machine, but I'll be happy to give you my money for a trip back in time.  But guess what? you don't have one either.  All you have is "mental masturbation remarks"  

380368[/snapback]

Sorry, but your arguement is just degrading into a debate about semantics. The idea that affinity for a given anime can be quanitifed using vagaries like "as much or more" or "bet you would have" is pure nonsense. There is no formula you can apply carte blanche that explains why someone was dissappointed with an overrated anime that you just happen to adore. Your arguement has already failed to stand against even the most cursory examples that contradict it, yet it continues down this silly slope.

Needless to say, Isoquant is far from "dead wrong" and his opinion of NGE formed 9 years after the last of the releases is just as relevant and valid as any. Rationalize however you must, but you're far from a persuasive arguement if you continue debating with such reasoning fallacies.

380502[/snapback]

Look you are not getting what I'm saying here, Of course he can say he hates EVA, he can say he love EVA, he can say all the good and the bad of EVA, those are his opinion of EVA and his alone. But when he said Overblown or Overated that a different matter. Becaues that connects directly to all the EVA fans with a statement saying they are wrong in rating EVA too high. That is where I disagree with him and told them that TIME played a major factor in that. The market on anime was very very small back then, it not like now when you can you see anime everywhere.

This will be my last post in this because I feel really stupid for explaining anymore to someone that's finds anime as an difficult medium to enjoy.

"Isoquant" Yes, you can hate EVA,, you can love EVA,, all that is up to you. But please don't label something as overblown or overated just because you don't like it.

As for Macross plus, yeah, what can I say,, Macross plus was just that good. But I stand firm on my point that you will love it even more if you watch that at a time when anime was harder to come by (10 yeras ago)

Don't forget to watch the movie also.

[Final Vegeta]

I watched anime as a child but I do remember little of them. At the time there were Nagai robot shows, and I did like them (I was always a mecha nut), but I found especially interesting Robotech. I also liked Saint Seiya, and other shows, but I found the Veritech Fighter really an inspiring design. In elementary school I was once asked to draw something, and I drew a VF-1 battroid like in the opening.

Years later a friend of mine was lent some tapes. It was my first exposure to Evangelion (it was around 1996, I think). I had already read very positive reviews of it on magazines, but it actually left me cold. I was like "well, now I need to know why the enemies are called angels, shouldn't I?". Luckily on the third tape I saw something amazing: the trailer of Escaflowne. Carmina burana-like BGMs, medieval mecha, clash of metal, this beated everything I had seen at the time. That trailer impressed even my friends. I had to got my hands on it, so I got it in subbed Japanese.

Escaflowne was an anime I really adored. I began debating Escaflowne over Evangelion, and that was also my first exposure to anime fandom; it gave me some social clues. After Escaflowne I tried to track everything Kawamori did, and I was delighted that he also did Macross, although I had to wait some years to actually see Macross and not Robotech.

I think Kawamori has his flaws, yet he has some kind of skill that others don't have. He has a peculiar sense of poetry and also lot of self-irony. On the basic level though, I just find his battles cooler than others. If you take Evangelion for example the enemies are tendentially limbless sitting ducks, while only the Evas are fast (I know this was done because of limitations in animation, but I still don't find it commendable). Rahxephon added more insult in that action was similar but the protagonist was helped in almost every battle by the misterious girl (there is also the fact that Rahxephon blatantly ripped-off even key scenes of Evangelion ending). I like in battles limbs moving and a sense of skill, I don't care much for thinking mecha. Also other works may have more consistent animation, yet rarely I found scenes that impress me aside from the anime of Kawamori.

Over the time I got over Escaflowne. Now my actual fav is Aquarion with its zen tone and mecha swordfencing, yet I think Kawamori can do even cooler anime.

About Evangelion, I recommend reading this interview:

Hideaki Anno probably felt terrible after reading that absurd e-mail criticism or having the series praised to death in an insulting manner in sub-culture magazines. But that's because "Evangelion" is a story about communication including misunderstandings such as these.

I think judgement of anime is what tear anime fandom. It creates rivalry and factions. If people could just intervene to clarify cultural insights, joke about anime and express their admiration for what they like in their anime anime fandom maybe would be a better world. There is no point in debating which anime should be superior to all others.

FV

[Mr March]

*snip*

This will be my last post in this because I feel really stupid for explaining anymore to someone that's finds anime as an difficult medium to enjoy.

380549[/snapback]

I understand perfectly what you're trying to do, no doubt its the inability to deal with negative criticism. Believe me, NGE is bashed to such a degree that overblown and overrated are about the mildest things a dissappointed viewer like Isoquant could say. Regardless, Isoquant can describe NGE as he wishes without some silly stipulation "as long as you don't call it this" because sensitive fans take it personally.

If you truly want to end the debate, I'll respect that and ignore your parting shot.