Do You Want For Japan To Start Producing Original

[Dante74]

People on this board are mostly in their 30's which means they don't dream about SF designs being realised in the real world.

We DO dream about owning more toys though...

[David Hingtgen]

A big part of not producing unique designs is expense. The cost of designing planes is going up far faster than any nation's economy. In WW2 almost every nation could design and build their own new planes in a year. Nowadays, France can barely afford a new plane a decade, it takes the UK plus 2 or 3 other nations to fund a new Euro-plane (Tornado and Typhoon), and the US isn't doing much better. It's always been considered amazing how Sweden can design such top-quality planes on a tiny (for aircraft design) budget/economy. Maybe SAAB employees are just really motivated...

It's a lot cheaper for Japan to buy other nation's planes, like lots of nations do. The best stuff IS for sale, generally.

[HWR MKII]

Well it has been proven that the SV-51 can be made into a viable airframe. Even if it is just RC right now

[Dante74]

With RC anything is possible. Even flying lawnmowers.

[Sumdumgai]

With RC anything is possible. Even flying lawnmowers.

376094[/snapback]

WOOHOO!! Flying lawnmower! Thanks for bringing that thing back! I love it!

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

  It's always been considered amazing how Sweden can design such top-quality planes on a tiny (for aircraft design) budget/economy.  Maybe SAAB employees are just really motivated... 

376085[/snapback]

More money being spent on wind tunnels then pork barrels and CEO pay probably.

[Sdf-1]

Sweden doesn't have to use much on defensive costs, because we guys over here are the ones to take the hit...

[honneamise]

Oh come on Phalanx the other thread you started was at least funny but this one is just plain childish from the start....

[honneamise]

Sweden doesn't have to use much on defensive costs, because we guys over here are the ones to take the hit...

376116[/snapback]

Hey but wait? Isn´t there a finnish company that builds waslking forestry machines? IIRC its name is Plustech - Phalanx should send them a letter demanding the production of real destroids so you could kick anyones´asses!

[Sdf-1]

Holy crap!!! I'm Finnish and I hear from you that we're the leading Destroid developement country!?!

This thing is AWESOME!!! I'm just shocked this is REAL!!! (and Finnish )

That seems to be the backside of that. When I saw other pictures.

Edited March 3, 2006 by Sdf-1

[Phalanx]

OK honneamise you do have a point , when I think about it does sound to childish

but what can I say? I can dream can I? It was just another one of my hypothetical questions that need to get of my head.

[F-ZeroOne]

In one manner of speaking, the F-2 is already an anime plane - it appears briefly in Patlabor: The Movie 2...

[Phalanx]

But F-zero One, that was just fictional variant in the movie with a stealth wing design and stealt thrust vectoring engine nozzle. Like the guy in the movie said there aren't any variants of teh F-2 stationed at any of their bases around the country

[F-ZeroOne]

But F-zero One, that was just fictional variant in the movie with a stealth wing design and stealt thrust vectoring engine nozzle. Like the guy in the movie said there aren't any variants of teh F-2 stationed at any of their bases around the country

376162[/snapback]

Hmm. Let the images decide!

http://hk.geocities.com/patrol_labor/tech1.htm

(scroll down slightly - the F-15 variant is fictional, though)

vs.

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/f2/f26.html

(while the movie may describe a thrust-vectoring nozzle and different wing, I'd be extremely surprised if, based on that sketch, the baseline F-2 wasn't used as the model... )

Edited March 3, 2006 by F-ZeroOne

[Beltane70]

It's always been considered amazing how Sweden can design such top-quality planes on a tiny (for aircraft design) budget/economy.  Maybe SAAB employees are just really motivated...

Where do you think all the profits from their automotive division go to?

[Knight26]

When you really sit down and look at it, with very few exceptions, most anime aircraft are derived from existing aircraft. For instance the transport plane for the new Appleseed is basically a C-130 mated with a V-22, now there is something like that in the works by Boeing, but it is radically different and a far cleaner design. The inherent problem you run into with converting a plane from an anime to something real is that as stated mechanical designers in anime are not engineers, they design things to look interesting, not necessarily to be practical. True, some like SK, have a background in engineering, SK was an Aero/Mech in college before he dropped out. But in the end they are artists. There have been some anime aircraft that look very feasible and with some major work could possibly fly, the fan jet from Macross, the Dragon-2 from Macross, infact a lot of the standard cargo, ASW, and helos from Macross look very feasible, but then their designs draw a lot from existing aircraft. On the other hand the designs featured in the new yukikaze anime for the most part would not be feasible, they are too big, are massive drag magnets, and in some cases too fragile, they would break up in flight, assuming the could get off the ground.

F-01 pointed out the modified F-16 and F-15 from Patlabor, these are very visually interesting aircraft, but they would never be produced. Why you ask? SImple the investment to make them would far outweigh the cost of just buying the existing airframe, or even a newer existing airframe or one in development, like an F-22 or F-35. Would I have liked to have seen an F-15ACTIVE derived fighter, sheol yeah, that plane seriously kicked, and could even give an F-22 or Su-37 a run for their money, but the plain and simple fact is that we will never see something like it produced.

In the end no matter how pretty or realistic it looks anime is fantasy, even the more based in reality shows are still just fantasy, and the mechanical designers are not engineers, they are artists and for the most part do not understand the stresses, strains, and other engineering forces involved with the design of a real aircraft.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

That forest walker looks cool. Like something we've all seen in a comic books made real.

when are they going to make the octos:

[Rocket Punch]

EVA Mass Production Unit(s)

RQ-4A Global Hawk

[EXO]

Holy crap!!! I'm Finnish and I hear from you that we're the leading Destroid developement country!?!

This thing is AWESOME!!! I'm just shocked this is REAL!!! (and Finnish  )

That seems to be the backside of that. When I saw other pictures.

376124[/snapback]

At first I was gonna call BS, but after I looked it up I'm shocked too. It looks like a GITS spider tank.

We need to file this under the "we're all gonna die" section... in greener richer forests.

[Sdf-1]

Holy crap!!! I'm Finnish and I hear from you that we're the leading Destroid developement country!?!

This thing is AWESOME!!! I'm just shocked this is REAL!!! (and Finnish  )

That seems to be the backside of that. When I saw other pictures.

376124[/snapback]

At first I was gonna call BS, but after I looked it up I'm shocked too. It looks like a GITS spider tank.

We need to file this under the "we're all gonna die" section... in greener richer forests.

376868[/snapback]

Yeah, seems not to be BS indeed. I Googled/image googled Plustech. There are other nice pics too, from front view also. The most amazing thing is, it's actually damn good looking.

[Phyrox]

EVA Mass Production Unit(s)

RQ-4A Global Hawk

376866[/snapback]

What the hell is this post about? Autonomous giant clones/robots and large RC semi-autonomous aircraft...why are they in this thread?

[Phalanx]

I agree Phyrox, we're talking about Japan making original aircraft, not robot drones.

[Rocket Punch]

EVA Mass Production Unit(s)

RQ-4A Global Hawk

376866[/snapback]

What the hell is this post about? Autonomous giant clones/robots and large RC semi-autonomous aircraft...why are they in this thread?

376914[/snapback]

...because I think the resemblance is funny.

[JB0]

I agree Phyrox, we're talking about Japan making original aircraft, not robot drones.

376916[/snapback]

So I shouldn't post pictures of the "transformable Mini Cooper"?

[Phalanx]

Well JB0 I'm afraid so, not to upset you or anything but then again it is a free forum so you could do what you want

[JB0]

*rolls eyes*

[Phalanx]

Well back to the topic at hand, Now I know that a vast majority of the planes you see in anime may look as if they can be made into actual planes and some of them may not but when you think about some of these fighters regardless of how they look seemingly impossible to fly, can. You wanna know why?

Because of a thing that all us fighter plane enthusiats in this forum know as the "fly-by-wire" control system. That's the the one thing that makes most unusual aircraft designs able to fly and a perfect example of this would be the story behind the "Flying Wing" design: Back in the late 1940's N Grumman had designed the unique XB-35 Flying Wing. When it was designed N.Grumman thought that it would fly flawlessly but unfortunately it crashed and was unsuccessful. That was because the aircraft was aerodynamically unstable regardless of it's altitude. Adding vertical rudders to stabilize the plane didn't help at all and it had appear that the flying wing concept would never work. Fast forward 40 years later the B-2 Spirit emerges as the advaced stealth bomber plane in the world. This aircraft uses the flying wing design but ironically the design was originally unsuccesful among the XB-35. What made the B-2 Spirit able to fly was the radical advance in military aerospace technology which lead to the fly-by-wire system. This flight control allows computer processors to control the aircraft making the aircraft bank more responsive by automatically controlling and correcting all of the ailerons and flaps false movements. To compensate this, the XB-35 was aerodynamically unstable and would require more crew members to constantly and manually stabilize the plane but since the B-2 uses the FBW system consisting of 150 computers, it's what keeps the plane stable during flight as the FBW automatically corrects the false movements of the aileron flaps. In short it's just an electroninc control system.

So there you have it, just about any unusual aircraft design is able to fly thanks to FBW. Please correct me if I'm wrong about any of this.

[Syngyne]

If you give a brick a fly-by-wire system it's still not going to fly.

Fly-by-wire does help with airframes that are unstable, like the F-16, but said airframes still have to be aerodynamic. A lot of the interesting shapes you see in anime aircraft, while making them aesthetically pleasing, also make them non-aerodynamic.

[Phalanx]

Well Syngyne, I said most not all aircraft with unusual designs are able to fly thanks to FBW controls. But when I think about it I think that a fair number of aircraft with unusual designs are able to fly. I also didn't know that the F-16 airframe was unstable for it to use FBW cause I thought G.Dynamics simply developed the F-16 and decided to use the FBW system just as part of the avionics, not to help control the plane.

[one_klump]

Well Phalanx, I like your dream of seeing anime planes in the air one day, but its not going to happen. Sure it would be cool to see a VF-1 in the sky. But truthfully, a F-22 would swat it out of the sky in a heartbeat. There are reasons why manufacturing companies do not use people who draw anime as their cheif designers.

they are artist, not engineers, and not to mention the extravagent cost that would be assiocated by constructing a totally new airframe. New planes do not come often, the F-22 is replacing a 30 year old design. The F-14 flew for just as long, and its replacement can't even live up to it's "ancient" design.

[Sundown]

So there you have it, just about any unusual aircraft design is able to fly thanks to FBW.  Please correct me if I'm wrong about any of this.

376959[/snapback]

Fly by wire and fly by computer are used to make airframes that are only semi-airworthy or difficult to control flyable. But these airframes are unstable as a result of extra functionality they offer-- better maneuverability, stealth capabilities, high angles of attack, etc. These are actually useful features. But fly by wire is not used to make anime fans happy simply because it can. "Looks like such and such out of this anime" is not an actual useful functionality.

It might be surprising, but anime fans are not the customers aeronautic engineers of military aircraft generallly cater to. They cater to governments and militaries, who care primarily about economy, speed, maintainability, and how well their aircraft kills people and breaks things. Any part of the design that doesn't actually help one of these areas is generally something they're not going to spend time and money on.

Edited March 6, 2006 by Sundown

[Phalanx]

Well One Klump you make a good point about mechanical designers just being designers and not engineers and designing futuristic aircraft is too expensive. But you have consider the K.I.S.S concept that my aerospace engineer taught me in senior year of high school. KISS means Keep It Short and Simple, and the acronym speaks for itself. I mean that I think that some of these anime jets lwith basic airframe design look as if they could be made into actuall aircraft. Take Hikaru's orange fan-liner plane in macross looks simple enough to be made. So therefore I feel that as long as aircraft have short and simple designs they can be made into actual aircraft.

[Phyrox]

Look, the issue isn't really whether or not any or all of these designs CAN be made to fly. Probably some could, some couldn't. The issue is SHOULD they. There is no justification for such a silly proposition. Do you have any reason to suppose that this would actually be a good idea?

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

So that really rich anime fans who were into gundam can finally realise thier dream of flying the core fighter cosplaying as Amuro Ray of course.

(a bit like that otaku who wanted to go into space dressed up as char has the money to do it)

Edited March 6, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Phalanx]

Thanx Phyrox for reminding me about the topic. (I can't remember my own topic, how dumb of me ) I believe that Japan should make actual aircraft taken from anime because they already have the technology, resources, and money to do so, not soley to impress anime fans but because they look as if they can be made. Sure I know that may not say much but I don't know what reason to dish out to you other than the fact that they look as if they can be made.