Anybody Thinks That Sk Needs To Redesign The Vf-1?

[JB0]

'Kay. Just making sure.

[Metal_Massacre_79]

Dudes, WTF is up with the long quotes? Just quote what you are replying to. We don't need to read the same book over and over and over and over...

[The6ftTallAZN]

I think I get phalanx's point and I think two perfect examples of this would be the 2005 Forad Mustangs and the soon the be released 2007 Dodge Challenger. I mean the Mustang is pretty much a redesigned '67 fastback and the Challenger was designed to look like the Challengers of the '70s.

[bryan_f_davis@yahoo.com]

As far as the 0 being an updated 1, well, I think the 0 is a great looking Valkryie, but the 1 is more practical. One, its smaller in size, making it less of a target. Two, the zero was plagued with "fuel issues", something the 1 seldom faced. Three, the 1 just looks meaner than the 0. The 0, although an amazing design, is still an elegant prototype fragile looking fighter. The 1 looks more rock solid, more stable...and I officially feel like a geek.

SNAP!

[Phalanx]

I'm back after two days of no internet since I was away and thanK you too 6fttALLAZN for showing understanding for where I'm going with this. But, I decided to consider this point; If the anime producers at Big West were to make an anime series that took place in the 70's hypothetically involving SK 's VF-1 ( or F-1 since variable technology wasn't around in the 70's), I can understand the boxy and pointy look to the VF-1 since that's how some fighters like the Mig-25 and Mig-31 were back then. But in the case of Big West making Macross which is set in the early 21st century, I feel that the VF-1 needs to look as if was made in the early 21st century not as if it was made in the 20th century.

[JB0]

As far as the 0 being an updated 1, well, I think the 0 is a great looking Valkryie, but the 1 is more practical.  One, its smaller in size, making it less of a target.  Two, the zero was plagued with "fuel issues", something the 1 seldom faced.  Three, the 1 just looks meaner than the 0.  The 0, although an amazing design, is still an elegant prototype fragile looking fighter.  The 1 looks more rock solid, more stable...and I officially feel like a geek. 

SNAP!

376846[/snapback]

The first 2 points are continuity torubles. I was just speaking in terms of aesthetics and feature set.

I'm back after two days of no internet since I was away and thanK you too 6fttALLAZN for showing understanding for where I'm going with this. But, I decided to consider this point; If the anime producers at Big West were to make an anime series that took place in the 70's hypothetically involving SK 's VF-1 ( or F-1 since variable technology wasn't around in the 70's), I can understand the boxy and pointy look to the VF-1 since that's how some fighters like the Mig-25 and Mig-31 were back then. But in the case of Big West making Macross which is set in the early 21st century, I feel that the VF-1 needs to look as if was made in the early 21st century not as if it was made in the 20th century.

376852[/snapback]

It wouldn't really make sense for the VF-1 to match real-world contemporaries, because

1. real-world fighter development didn't go in the same direction as Macross fighter development, and

2. The VF-1 was a first attempt at a variable fighter. The tech was primitive and placed severe restrictions on the vehicle design. Real-world planes lack any transformation mechanisms, and don't have to make compromises in the design to accomodate them. Essentially, the decision to integrate GERWALK and Battroid modes forced them to use a less "modern" fighter design than they otherwise could have.

[Phalanx]

Well JBO I do kinda understand what your saying about why the VF-1 wouldn't match modern day fighters. I know that's impossible to create transformable fighters during this time and age, but I'm slightly confused about the other points you made about the gerwalk and battloid issues.

[JB0]

Well JBO I do kinda understand what your saying about why the VF-1 wouldn't match modern day fighters. I know that's impossible to create transformable fighters during this time and age, but I'm slightly confused about the other points you made about the gerwalk and battloid issues.

376877[/snapback]

You apparently totally MISunderstand me.

The VF-1, even if it were non-transformable, wouldn't look like real-world contemporaries because aviation went in a radically diffrent direction in the Macross universe.

The flashbacks to Roy's service in the unification wars show planes that never existed in the real world. The timeline forks AT LEAST when the ASS-1 crashes in 1999. The presence of F-14s in Zero indicates that it can't fork before the F-14 came into service, and the Compendium lists F-14Ds, which means the D upgrade had to come out before the timelines diverged aviation-wise. That places us as matching Macross through 1990. Likely, 1999 was the point where things broke away from the real-world. From there they broke away FAST as overtechnology from the Macross let them do things they never dreamed of before. Any real-world planes in development as of 1999 would have been scrapped, as they were instantly rendered hopelessly obsolete before they ever made it into production.

And the other point is simple... the VF-1 looks like a step backwards from Macross planes like flashback Roy's Dragon II because they had to compromise for the variable design.

A Macross modern design had no room for arms, legs, chests, heads, or the massive pile of servos needed to move everything around. So they reverted to the older F14 and F15 designs so there would be enough room to put a robot inside.

[Nightbat]

As I stated before about "Modern looking planes"

Why doesn't the Hornet look like something out of a scifi?

it is "Today's" plane (and will be in service for another decade at least)

it does't look more advanced than an F4 Phantom which was designed in the 60's

A Macross modern design had no room for arms, legs, chests, heads, or the massive pile of servos needed to move everything around. So they reverted to the older F14 and F15 designs so there would be enough room to put a robot inside.

376894[/snapback]

But the VF-1 isn't near the size of an F-14

Edited March 5, 2006 by Nightbat

[Phalanx]

Nightbat is right JB0, but I do remember reading the interview on SK's Advanced Valkyrie program where SK said that he didn't mean to make the VF-1 resembel the F-14 as he drew the fighter mode for the VF-1 accidently. Also JB0, when you point out that a modern VF-1 design wouldn't have any rooms for the arm's and legs and, etc. I didn't also imply that SK should change the entire layout of the battroids body parts for it's transformation sequence. I like it the way it is where the arms are between the the engines and the head is several feet back below the cockpit in fighter mode.

[JB0]

As I stated before about "Modern looking planes"

Why doesn't the Hornet look like something out of a scifi?

it is "Today's" plane (and will be in service for another decade at least)

it does't look more advanced than an F4 Phantom which was designed in the 60's

A Macross modern design had no room for arms, legs, chests, heads, or the massive pile of servos needed to move everything around. So they reverted to the older F14 and F15 designs so there would be enough room to put a robot inside.

376894[/snapback]

But the VF-1 isn't near the size of an F-14

376903[/snapback]

But it's bigger than it's single-mode contemporaries were. The Dragon 2 is longer, but the shape of the plane results in less overall volume, if I'm not mistaken. And volume is what we're concerned with. It's also not a design that lends itself well to a simple transformation.

Nightbat is right JB0, but I do remember reading the interview on SK's Advanced Valkyrie program where SK said that he didn't mean to make the VF-1 resembel the F-14 as he drew the fighter mode for the VF-1 accidently. Also JB0, when you point out that a modern VF-1 design wouldn't have any rooms for the arm's and legs and, etc. I didn't also imply that SK should change the  entire layout of the battroids body parts for it's transformation sequence. I like it the way it is where the arms are between the the engines and the head is several feet back below the cockpit in fighter mode.

376913[/snapback]

You're STILL not understanding what I mean.

I'm saying they're using an older design because of volume reasons. There just wasn't physically enough space in a "modern" Macross-world plane to fit all the parts they needed, regardless of where they attached.

The sleeker planes seen in Macross Plus and Seven are the direct result of advances in the technology that allow for more complex transformations and smaller parts. Without those advances, you're very limited in what kind of plane designs you can use.

[Phalanx]

So JB0 you're saying I should think of the transformation issue in terms of the actual Macross world as If I was in the story of Macross or from the real world? Cause I now I understand you much better with this. But then again I would have to ask you this question; If it was a matter of volume for fitting all of the battroid mode parts in a fighter because of the small space the VF-1 has, why did SK design the VF-1 to be small in the first place? If the VF-1's body was wider like the VF-2SS, it would have enough space to fit all of the parts for the Battroid mode.

Unless you actually mean that SK is using a simple transformation layout for the VF-1 since they found it appropriate for the length width height and design of the fighter.

Because when I think about it, when you merge the F-14 and the F-15 together the VF-1's battloid arms and gun pod would fit in place of where the twin engines of the F-15's underside and central fuel tank are, they would be appropriate for them. Get what I'm saying ?I hope you're not mad at me for still not understanding the point your making

[JB0]

So JB0 you're saying I should think of the transformation issue in terms of the actual Macross world as If I was in the story of Macross or from the real world? Cause I now I understand you much better with this. But then again I would have to ask you this question; If it was a matter of volume for fitting all of the battroid mode parts in a fighter because of the small space the VF-1 has, why did SK design the VF-1 to be small in the first place? If the VF-1's body was wider like the VF-2SS, it would have enough space to fit all of the parts for the Battroid mode.

Personally, I think the VF-1 IS too small for what it is. I think that's part of the real-world reason for why the VF-0 is so much bigger.

You COULD make the argument that since it was designed first and foremost as a fighter plane, size needed to be kept down to make it harder to hit.

Unless you actually mean that SK is using a simple transformation layout for the VF-1 since they found it appropriate for the length width height and design of the fighter.

Other way around. I'm saying that fighter design was appropriate for a simple transformation.

The VF-1 is a good shape and layout for folding into a humanoid robot. Hence why the original real-world 1/55 toys had a more or less anime-accurate transformation but were still very simple toys.

Because when I think about it, when you merge the  F-14 and the F-15 together the VF-1's battloid arms and gun pod would fit in place of where the twin engines of the F-15's underside and central fuel tank are, they would be appropriate for them. Get what I'm saying ?

*nods*

Hence why the VF-1 isn't an exact duplicate of any real-world fighter. There's unique design requirements for the transformation, especially since Kawamori was going for a semi-realistic transformation sequence.

I hope you're not mad at me for still not understanding the point your making

Nah.

There's just too much vagueness in spoken and written language. But I can't draw, and don't know any telepaths. So words will just have to do.

[Phalanx]

JB0, I finally drew an original front view picture of what I believe the redesgined VF-1 should look like in Paintbrush. I also included a front view pic of the original VF-1 for you to compare and contrast the differences. If this doesn't prove my point then I don't know what will.

[JB0]

JB0, I finally drew an original front view picture of what I believe the redesgined VF-1 should look like in Paintbrush. I also included a front view pic of the original VF-1 for you to compare and contrast the differences. If this doesn't prove my point then I don't know what will.

376961[/snapback]

Well, it looks mainly like an amateurish attempt at increasing the angularity of the VF-1.

...

And like you moved the tailfins so they attach to the ankles. Going for YF-21-style shields, I hope?

Cokpit's absurdly tall, engine intakes are absurdly wide... it looks like it might work as an SD version...

[Phalanx]

So, JB0 are you saying that its strictly decent or unacceptable to your standards? Youre right, it was rather amateurish of me try increase the angles of the VF-1 This was just a front view of the fighter and I wanted to draw a top view for it but I didn't feel like doing all that work. But now all of you have a clear idea of what I mean. Also JB0 when you say that it looks more of an SD design I felt a little offended when you said that and I wasn't trying to make it resemble the YF-21 intentionally if thats what you really wanted me to do. I was actuallY trying to smoothen and widen out certain area's of the fighter that looked to boxy and pointy. But like I said this an idea of what want you to see.

[JB0]

So, JB0 are you saying that its strictly decent or unacceptable to your standards? Youre right, it was rather amateurish of me try increase the angles of the VF-1 This was just a front view of the fighter and I wanted to draw a top view for it but I didn't feel like doing all that work. But now all of you have a clear idea of what I mean. Also JB0 when you say that it looks more of an SD design I felt a little offended when you said that    and I wasn't trying to make it resemble the YF-21 intentionally if thats what you really wanted me to do. I was actuallY trying to smoothen and widen out certain area's of the fighter that looked to boxy and pointy. But like I said this an idea of what want you to see.

376992[/snapback]

I just thought the tailfins were YF-21-ish. I'm assuming they won't stay on teh ankles in battroid mdoe, since that'd get in the way.

It's not a very good effort, and a head-on view doesn't show a lot of detail.

The intakes are WAY too exagerated, and the nose needs to be scrapped and redone totally.

Beyond that... can't tell from that angle.

[Sundown]

But in the case of Big West making Macross which is set in the early 21st century, I feel that the VF-1 needs to look as if was made in the early 21st century not as if it was made in the 20th century.

376852[/snapback]

If you wanna be serious about this, then SK needs to remake Macross Plus, DYRL, and Macross 7, because all of the Valkyries in those series look as if they were made today or in the the late 20th century, instead of in the 2030's.

None of the Macross valkyries look like they fit their timeframes, because all of them are based on today's designs, even though they're supposed to be from the future.

[Phalanx]

OK JB0 I understand that my drawing isn't that good because it shows just one angle but if I had time I would draw more pics of my VF-1 from various angles to show off the details. But I did manage to retain some of the distinct features of the original VF-1 like the side head lights as one of them. It's not like I'm saying that I want SK to redesign everything about the VF-1 like having with a swept forward wing design the head in the fuselage and the gun pods looking less tube like in the later Valk designs seen in M+ and M7.

Sundown I know you think that it's best for SK to remake M+ and M7 in order to make them look as if they fit their appropriate time periods but I like those Valk designs the way they are because they already look futuristic to begin with. IMO they fit their timelines perfectly and Sundown, when you say "based' on today's designs, theres a difference. "Based" in this case means that these designs look exactly identical to the original. Unless you meant to say "inspired" since SK admits that most of his valk designs were inspired by the looks of the original aircraft in today's world. A good example to back up the term based on would be a

video game based off a movie; Same original concept and content only different format. Inspired- motivated by interest of one thing resulting in someone doing their original version of something.

[JB0]

OK JB0 I understand that my drawing isn't that good because it shows just one angle but if I had time I would draw more pics of my VF-1 from various angles to show off the details. But I did manage to retain some of the distinct features of the original VF-1 like the side head lights as one of them. It's not like I'm saying that I want SK to redesign everything about the VF-1 like having with a swept forward wing design the head in the fuselage and the gun pods looking less tube like in the later Valk designs seen in M+ and M7.

You just took the VF1, moved the tailfins, and stretched everything out of proportion.

Sundown I know you think that it's best for SK to remake M+ and M7 in order to make them look as if they fit their appropriate time periods but I like those Valk designs the way they are because they already look futuristic to begin with.

No. They look contemporary. Like modern real-world planes.

And the POINT was that if you redesign the VF-1 more signifigantly than the VF-0 was, you wind up ahving to go back and refresh the entire timeline.

IMO they fit their timelines perfectly and Sundown, when you say "based' on today's designs, theres a difference. "Based" in this case means that these designs look exactly identical to the original. Unless you meant to say "inspired" since SK admits that most of his valk designs were inspired by the looks of the original aircraft in today's world. A good example to back up the term based on would be a

video game based off a movie; Same original concept and content only different format. Inspired- motivated by interest of one thing resulting in someone doing their original version of something.

Every VF Kawamori's done has been closely related to a real-world airplane.

Some are seemingly ageles. Others have started looking pretty old. Others are based on contemporary planes, and it remains to be seen how they'll age.

Speaking of other VFs... Hey Yamato, VF-4 plz kthx!

Just looking at things... it's also arguable the VF-11 is a VF-1 remake.

I'd stick with the VF-0, as it's more closely related.

[ghostryder]

Wow, this thread is still going strong, eh?

Ignoring the whole debate about "fitting" into the timeline aesthetically, I'll give me quick $0.02 on this. I see where you are going and can appreciate the subtle stealthy enhancement of angling the engine nacelles/legs. Just remember, not even the YF-19 and YF-21 had this feature, and had more or less "boxy" leg cross-sections, just for the sake of simplifying the knee and hip joints. I like the fins on the outside of the legs like you have.

Let's see a top view . Hard to tell what you have in your head from this quick job.

JB0, I finally drew an original front view picture of what I believe the redesgined VF-1 should look like in Paintbrush. I also included a front view pic of the original VF-1 for you to compare and contrast the differences. If this doesn't prove my point then I don't know what will.

376961[/snapback]

[Phalanx]

Alright JB0, you could say that I moved the tail fins around and stretched its body but I didn't move the tailfins so wide apart for the stealthness. I didn't want it that way, so I spaced the tail fins out because I felt they were a little too close each other. And I was thinking about your point where you say that the VF-11 is a remake of the VF-1 and I agree with you in a sense but according to the VF-11's history Dave Dietrich's macross mecha designs, it states that the VF-11 is a direct descendant of the VF-1 in terms of their appearance in which they still have their F-14 like shape to them. It's best if you could imagine seeing a possible redesigned version of the VF-1 as a slightly bogged down version of a VF-11 since the two resemble each other.The VF-11's body is more smoother than the VF-'s body as it is boxy and pointy. IMHO, it doesn't look to me as if that SK considers the VF-11 to be a direct redesign of the VF-1, since it doesn't retain the same key and distinct features the original one possesed. I don't want the redesigned VF-1 to have new features it orignally didn't have in the beginning canards, an active or passive stealth system and etc. because that would require SK to redo the timeline. That's the same as me saying that I don't want all of the members of the X-men to have new mutant powers just to fit the future setting because that would suck. Remember in picture where I retain all the external distinct parts of the VF-1 like the head lights on the side of the air intakes and the head still below the fighter behind the cockpit and arms between the engine nacelles. All I'm saying is that by updating the general layout of things by smoothening them out to look contemporary, it would look as if VF-1 plausibly fits the timeline for Macross.

Ghostryder, thanks for your positive assessment of drawing. I'll try to draw more angles of the fighter for better detail comparison

Edited March 6, 2006 by Phalanx

[JB0]

Alright JB0, you could say that I moved the tail fins around and stretched its body but I didn't move the tailfins so wide apart for the stealthness. I didn't want it that way, so I spaced the tail fins out because I felt they were a little too close each other.

I didn't say you moved them for any reason. Just that the relocation reminded me of the YF-21.

And I was thinking about your point where you say that the VF-11 is a remake of the VF-1 and I agree with you in a sense but according to the VF-11's history Dave Dietrich's macross mecha designs, it states that the VF-11 is a direct descendant of the VF-1 in terms of their appearance in which they still have their F-14 like shape to them. It's best if you could imagine seeing a possible redesigned version of the VF-1 as a slightly bogged down version of a VF-11 since the two resemble each other.The VF-11's body is more smoother than the VF-'s body as it is boxy and pointy. IMHO, it doesn't look to me as if that SK considers the VF-11 to be a direct redesign of the VF-1, since it doesn't retain the same key and distinct features the original one possesed. I don't want the redesigned VF-1 to have new features it orignally didn't have in the beginning canards, an active or passive stealth system and etc. because that would require SK to redo the timeline. That's the same as me saying that I don't want all of the members of the X-men to have new mutant powers just to fit the future setting because that would suck. Remember in picture where I retain all the external distinct parts of the VF-1 like the head lights on the side of the air intakes and the head still below the fighter behind the cockpit and arms between the engine nacelles. All I'm saying is that by updating the general layout of things by smoothening them out to look contemporary, it would look as if VF-1 plausibly fits the timeline for Macross.

I was just looking at it from an aesthetics PoV. As Kawamori's never going to redo the original story, he has no need to re-redo the VF-1. Any remakes will appear as new vehicles. Probably with new features, as there's a limit to how many prequels you can do.

Just imagine a VF-11 without all the extra spec'ed equipment. Give it the canards because we're talking about a massive redesign anyways. Hell, your own "redesign" seemed to move the tailfins off the "backpack" and onto the legs, just like the VF-11.

It's the same transformation sequence(plus a snap-off shield), same overall silhouette in battroid mode, etc. It IS a modernized VF-1.

Sadly, it's also a tad anorexic. All those criticisms of the VF-1's chunkiness have given it an eating disorder.

Ghostryder, thanks for your positive assessment of drawing. I'll try to draw more angles of the fighter for better detail comparison

377155[/snapback]

That WOULD help give people a better idea of your goals.

[Sundown]

Sundown I know you think that it's best for SK to remake M+ and M7 in order to make them look as if they fit their appropriate time periods but I like those Valk designs the way they are because they already look futuristic to begin with.

Actually, I don't think SK should do much of anything with the M+ design. I'm happy with them as they are, although I do wish they had more style commonalities with stuff from SDF.

IMO they fit their timelines perfectly and Sundown, when you say "based' on today's designs, theres a difference. "Based" in this case means that these designs look exactly identical to the original. Unless you meant to say "inspired" since SK admits that most of his valk designs were inspired by the looks of the original aircraft in today's world.

Err. The VF-1 is "inspired" or "based on" the F-14, the foremost fighter of its day in the 80's, just as the YF-21 is inspired by the real YF-23 and the VF-17 is based on the F-117.

In fact, both of these "futuristic" designs bear much closer resemblance to their modern day inspirations than the VF-1 does to the F-14. Like JB0 says, they don't look futuristic. They look modern. They look as futuristic as the F-14 did in the 80's, and they'll be out of date the exact same way, unless design aesthetics somehow stagnate in the next three decades.

The only difference between them is that you didn't grow up with the F-14, so to you, it's "old", and that it is no longer a bleeding edge design. But the YF-21 and VF-17 will be just as dated in 20 years and just as out of place for something designed in the 2030's. Of course, at that time you'll think they're fine and should be left well enough alone, while someone much younger demands an update because stealthy facets and offset angles were sooo 1990's.

Edited March 7, 2006 by Sundown

[Phalanx]

Not Necessarily Sundown, because believe it or not the F-14 was and still is my #1 favorite fighter that I liked since I was a little child. I mean since I was born in 1987 and the F-14 rolled out in 1970/1971, the designed had a "seemingly" smooth body to it's airframe. like around the main body, where opposed the VF-1's mainbody area , the leading edges above the air intakes are boxy and pointy compared to the F-14's leading edges. Just look at a picture of an F-14 and you can see the distinct features. BTW JB0 sorry for coming down on you for somewhat criticizing my design negatively where you said it resembles the VF-21. Don't get me wrong I didn't intentionally try to make look closely liKe the YF-21 despite the fact that the YF-21/VF-22 is one of my top 5 v.fighter's. Oh and pardon me for using the word "futuristic" in wrong context, where the word I was actually searching for was modern. Thats' what I meant; for SK to update the VF-1's appearance too look modern.

[Sundown]

I mean since I was born in 1987 and the F-14 rolled out in 1970/1971, the designed had a "seemingly" smooth body to it's airframe. like around the main body, where opposed the VF-1's mainbody area , the leading edges above the air intakes are boxy and pointy compared to the F-14's leading edges. Just look at a picture of an F-14 and you can see the distinct features.

Okay, thought your main problem with the VF-1 was that it was shaped too much like an 80's fighter, with two distinct semi-rectangular intakes.

If not, then I assume by boxy you're talking about the upper fuselage/battroid chestplate. Well, for what it's worth, those "boxy" edges really became more pronounced in DYRL. In the original TV series, and some of the box art for models based on the TV designs, those edges are actually rounded out, along with those little vents on them that are above the intakes. Kawamori made them boxy later, and it's just an artistic liberty he took in his own update to the design. I don't think that feature makes the VF-1 look dated as much as the fact that it resembles an F-14 rather than a F-22.

And "boxy" isnt' really a good indicator of design era. The Superhornet is actually heck of a lot boxier than the original F/A-18. Just take a look at its intakes. But it's a newer and more modern design.

[JB0]

Not Necessarily Sundown, because  believe it or not the F-14 was and still is my #1 favorite fighter that I liked since I was a little child. I mean since I was born in 1987 and the F-14 rolled out in 1970/1971, the designed had a "seemingly" smooth body to it's airframe. like around the main body, where opposed the VF-1's mainbody area , the leading edges above the air intakes are boxy and pointy compared to the F-14's leading edges. Just look at a picture of an F-14 and you can see the distinct features.

And the boxy leading edge is stolen from the F-15. Also gives the plane enough fuselage to make a decent chest, which is difficult to do without either a large splitting fuselage or a far more elaborate folding nose like the YF-19 has.

BTW JB0 sorry     for coming down on you for somewhat criticizing my design negatively where you said it resembles the VF-21. Don't get me wrong I didn't intentionally try to make look closely liKe the YF-21 despite the fact that the YF-21/VF-22 is one of my top 5 v.fighter's.

That part wasn't a negative comment. I was just guessing at where you were going with it.

And the eyeroll smiley gives that apology the feel of sarcasm. I'm not sure if that was the intent or not.

[Phalanx]

My fault JB0 I really mean it when I said I was sorry for criticizng my drawing. I didn't mean to be sarcastic since the emoticon didn't look sarcastic to me. And thankx for now making that point that the VF-1 used the boxy leading edge was taken from the F-15. Now I see the reasoning for the boxy and pointy design for the chest plate of the VF-1. But now that SK solved his problem for the transformation layout, don't you now feel that SK should modernize it? (Not as my final question to end this thread discussion. I'm not ready to end it just yet)

[JB0]

My fault JB0 I really mean it when I said I was sorry for criticizng my drawing. I didn't mean to be sarcastic since the emoticon didn't look sarcastic to me.

Apology accepted, then.

And thankx for now making that point that  the VF-1 used the boxy leading edge was taken from the F-15. Now I see the reasoning for the boxy and pointy design for the chest plate of the VF-1. But now that SK solved his problem for the transformation layout, don't you now feel that SK should modernize it? (Not as my final question to end this thread discussion. I'm not ready to end it just yet)

It really SHOULDN'T be modernized. Kawamori COULD have made a much mroe complex transformation then. He could've done it on the VF-0, also.

He chose not to, because the people IN MACROSS can't do it yet. It wouldn't make sense for a VF-1 to have as complex a transformation as a YF-19, because the YF-19 has three decades of technological evolution in it. It was, within the Macross continuity, a first attempt at a variable fighter. The mechanisms used in the VF-1 were big, bulky, and only capable of doing simple transformations.

It'd be like making a movie set in the 1970s and using LCD TVs on the set.

Once you scrap the basic design of the VF-1 and start integrating design features from later VFs you can't really call it a VF-1, can you?

If you want a more modern VF, we have the 4, 11(which seems to be exactly what you're looking for), 19, and 21. If you want a restyled VF-1, we have the VF-0.

I don't see a point behind redesigning the VF-1 when it's been done twice already, particularly not if it won't actually be USED for anything.

IT'S. JUST. STUPID.

[Phalanx]

Oh Thanx for also pointing that out to me JB0 where I didn't state that actual intention for the redesgin where I actually wanted it to be for a model kit the same way HK redesigned Wing Gundam for model kit work, but you slightly still don't see where I'm going with the redesign of the VF-1 in general. You say that the VF-11 is a feasible idea of what I wan't but I don't think that it resembles the original VF-1 closely since you insist that the VF-11 is SK's update of the VF-1. I should have specified this earilier to prevent confusion but I'm saying that I want the VF-1 redesign to retain 90% of the original one's DETAILS like I have in my picture. The outside body details (to be more exact) of the VF-11 don't clearly show the actual resemblance to the VF-1. Like once again with the W.Gundam Kai, it has the same paint scheme as the original but the design looks more contemporary for the purpose of modeling. The VF-11 is fine the way it is. I don't want it to change anyways.

Take my picture once again where I have a redesign of the VF-1S, the squad leader version. where opposed the fact that the VF-11 never had a squad leader variant with 4 head lasers and a junior officer version with 2 head lasers. You see where I'm going with this?

[JB0]

Oh Thanx for also pointing that out to me JB0 where I didn't state that actual intention for the redesgin where I actually wanted it to be for a model kit the same way HK redesigned Wing Gundam for model kit work,

Macross isn't whored out the same way Gundam is.

And when Kawamori HAS designed new VFs for merchandising, he's given them new numbers and attached a story.

I think it would be safe to extrapolate that he's just not a fan of the shameless recycling of designs Bandai does. The VF-0 exists PRECISELY to avoid having two diffrent VF-1 designs floating around.

but you slightly still don't see where I'm going with the redesign of the VF-1 in general. You say that the VF-11 is a feasible idea of what I wan't but I don't think that it resembles the original VF-1 closely since you insist that the VF-11 is SK's update of the VF-1. I should have specified this earilier to prevent confusion but I'm saying that I want the VF-1 redesign to retain 90% of the original one's DETAILS  like I have in my picture. The outside body details (to be more exact) of the VF-11 don't clearly show the actual resemblance to the VF-1. Like once again with the W.Gundam Kai, it has the same paint scheme as the original but the design looks more contemporary for the purpose of modeling. The VF-11 is fine the way it is. I don't want it to change anyways. 

Then go with the dang VF-0 already.

Paint scheme is meaningless on a VF. Especially the VF-1.

And the Katoki Wing is a pretty poor way of making your point with the VF-11, given Katoki radically changed the thing. I'd argue a VF-11 is as close to a VF-1 as Wing Ka is to original Wing.

Take my picture once again where I have a redesign of the VF-1S, the squad leader version. where opposed the fact that the VF-11 never had a squad leader variant with 4 head lasers and a junior officer version with 2 head lasers. You see where I'm going with this?

Your "picture" has almost no detail. It's hard to tell what ANYTHING is.

Besides which, an 11S could've been done. It's never been drawn because it's never been needed.

Like I said, there are TWO "remakes" of the VF-1 already. If you don't like one, there's another one waiting for your attention.

This whole thread is just stupid.

[Phalanx]

JB0, For the last dang time, I'll draw my redesign of the VF-1 showig more angles so you can see more details. I admit, the Wing Kai was a poor example but for a final example that I hope makes my point clear and ends this topic of mine just take the designs of all of the U.C timeline gundams like the GP-01 or ZZ Gundam. They're close redesigns of the original RX-78 in terms of their paint scheme where their chest areas are blue and their feet are red just like the original which shows 90% resemblance to each other. Just as you say that the VF-11 is what I want as the redesigned VF-1, that would be the same as me wanting the Wing Gundam as the redesign of the RX-78. They have no close resemblance to each other in terms of details like paint schemes of the original. I feel that paint schemes are important to me because it helps somebody recgonize the resemblance to the original firsthand by looking at it. Like once again with the Wing Kai; the same paint scheme as the original made it easy for me to see the resemblance to the original I already know that the Macross universe isn't like Gundam's but this was the only feasible example to use. And also, if you say that the VF-0 is a redesign of the VF-1, can you please explain to me why exactly didn't SK openly admit that it actually was because that caused confusion among me and some others?

Finally, what I've been saying earlier was leave the original VF-1 design OFFICIAL while leaving a close resemblance redesign of it for (model kit work) either SEMI-OFFICIAL or UNOFFICIAL. I'm not saying that this VF-1 redesign should replace the original one, OK? I hope that this point helps clear up any confusion I caused and I'm very close to ending this topic for good

Edited March 7, 2006 by Phalanx

[Sdf-1]

This thing is still going on?!?

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

And also, if you say that the VF-0 is a redesign of the VF-1, can you please explain to me why exactly didn't SK openly admit that it actually was because that caused confusion among me and some others?

It's a seperate vehicle in the story but you can consider it the less boxy version of what the vf1 is. ie same transformation, similar head turrets, gunpod looks close to the original 80s vf1 gunpod,..yet it has stuff that is modern like the cockpit, more detail in the head, robotic hands rather than bubble hands etc.

What you want is a model kit of vf1 with no boxy look, but without a show, to appeal to people who like modern aircraft, but it isn't part of the canon which will destroy what has already been made?

OK Bandai! Start making some Perfect Grade vf1 already (with a gundam wing paintscheme) so the thread can sink already. Since the vf1 won't be canon you can create a fictional backstory. Something like: the ORB government in gundam seed opened a portal to another dimension and stole some scientists from the macross universe to design the new Murasame Valk called the VFF1. The Variable Fanfic Fighter. They scrap the GERWALK mode, make the machine more futuristic, erase the memories of the scientists, sedate them and bring the scientists back to the macross universe who will wake up and believe it was all a dream. Orb uses the VFF1 only for super secret missions so you don't ever see this in the universe for fear the technology will fall into the wrong hands and be stolen.

Edited March 7, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Nightbat]

But what do we get from this thread?

every 20 years Gundam macross designs will have to be redesigned to

fit "Today's" standards

Hey I want a "today's version" of "Ben Hurr"!