Anybody Like The Vf-2ss Space Valkyrie 2?

[mechaninac]

I still believe my artist analogy put it best. The VF-1 was based on the F-14, and all subsequent Kawamori Valkyrie designs are based on real world aircraft and avionics. The VF-2SS and VF-2JA on the other hand are based on the VF-1.

385548[/snapback]

But so are the VF-3000 and VF-5000, and the VF-11 borrows more than a little from the VF-1.

It is true, however, that Kawamori gets most of his starting points for new VFs from real world fighter aircraft, but not always...VF-4.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I think you just prefer Kawamori's design style over the artist(s) who penned the mecha from M2. That's cool.

[Radd]

Yes, I've agreed that several Valkyries do share many aspects with the VF-1, but they also remain grounded in Kawamori's love of aviation and real world aircraft. And you have to admit, the VF-4 fighter mode still looks like something you might find on a real world airstrip.

In fact...

I've freely admitted that I prefere Kawamori's designs, but the way you worded it sounds very much like agreeing with me. After all, for me to prefere a certain design aesthetic, it must first exist, and that has been my entire argument.

I also do not believe it is somehow wrong for others to prefere the MII mecha. That's perfectly cool. Eugimon nailed my view of that pretty accurately.

[mechaninac]

...the VF-4 fighter mode still looks like something you might find on a real world airstrip.

In fact...

385754[/snapback]

That's kind of stretching it... any resemblance is vague at best. I still contend that the VF-4 is the oddball or the VF family tree, but what an oddball it is.

I've freely admitted that I prefere Kawamori's designs, but the way you worded it sounds very much like agreeing with me. After all, for me to prefere a certain design aesthetic, it must first exist, and that has been my entire argument.

385754[/snapback]

I do agree that Kawamori got most of his design inspiration from real world aircraft... at least in the most basic of proportions. One could argue that the YF-19 is based off the X-29, but aside from the FSW and canards there is almost nothing in common (I see a lot of the Berkut in the YF-19, however).

And just to throw a monkey wrench into the argument: If the VF-1 borrows basic aesthetic design queues from the F-14 (it obviously does) and the VF-2JA and VF-2SS are evolutions/redesigns of the VF-1, then it follows that the VF-2JA and VF-2SS are also inspired by the F-14. See, I too can stretch things...

[Zinjo]

We all know full well that Kawamori was a fan of Gundam, and that he even named the bridge of the SDF-1 Macross after the fanzine his Gundam fanclub made while attending Keio University. Over time, the canon Macross mecha have started to look more and more like Gundams.

385526[/snapback]

I suspect a better comparison would be this Gundam from Gundam 0083 Stardust Memory (which came out in 1991) to the YF-19. If we are to compare the SK designs of the 90's to Gundam.

Edited March 30, 2006 by Zinjo

[Sundown]

Seemed a bit relevant (at the time) to the discussion of precisely where the Valkyrie II split from the canon Kawamori designs. That and I was wondering if that thought had occurred to anyone else. Some of Kawamori's other works also seem to me to be following that general progression towards Gundam styling.

While Kawamori's designs don't resemble Gundams yet, I do agree that Kawamori's designs have changed from bold and simple to complex and cluttered. The shape of his old valkyries were iconic and readily identifiable, and their designs weren't packed with surface details that broke up the design's overall form. His new designs tend to adopt conventions from other anime mecha and in my opinion, lose some of the simple and unique elegance that drew me to Macross in the first place. Take a look at the VF-0S's head, for example. The VF-1S's head was bold, simple, and has been a favorite for years. The 0's head is the 1S head with all sorts of clutter thrown on top of it that obscures the original's beauty without adding much on its own.

They didn't really add much to the design of the VF-2SS, but they refined what traits it already had. Yeah, essentially they took the VF-1S and said "Okay guys, how can we make this thing look newer and fresher" and worked from that. Gotta admit though, it does flow pretty well as a design.

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I do agree that even though the VF-2SS took the design in a different, but understandable direction, it still retains more of the original design's feel and styling. It's weird, but I almost feel that Kawamori's designs aren't consistent in themselves, especially when it comes ot battroid mode. Some folks might find this refreshing, but I'm not a fan of many of his designs aside from the YF-21. For some reason, his designs don't consistently compel me the way Shirow's or Miyataki's do, where I dig just about everything they do, rather than the few isolated designs here and there.

Edited March 31, 2006 by Sundown

[Ginrai]

I suspect a better comparison would be this Gundam  from Gundam 0083 Stardust Memory (which came out in 1991) to the YF-19.  If we are to compare the SK designs of the 90's to Gundam.

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Uhm, yeah, but uh, Kawamori designed that Gundam, too.

[Radd]

That's kind of stretching it... any resemblance is vague at best.  I still contend that the VF-4 is the oddball or the VF family tree, but what an oddball it is.

If you can't see a reseblance between the Lightning and the Lightning III, we're on two very different wavelengths. I was even planning to use the P-38 Lightning as the basis for a retro version of the VF-4.

I do agree that Kawamori got most of his design inspiration from real world aircraft... at least in the most basic of proportions.  One could argue that the YF-19 is based off the X-29, but aside from the FSW and canards there is almost nothing in common (I see a lot of the Berkut in the YF-19, however).

One does not need to make their designs identical to a single, specific, real world aircraft to maintain the basics of modern aviation design and aesthetics.

And just to throw a monkey wrench into the argument:  If the VF-1 borrows basic aesthetic design queues from the F-14 (it obviously does) and the VF-2JA and VF-2SS are evolutions/redesigns of the VF-1, then it follows that the VF-2JA and VF-2SS are also inspired by the F-14.  See, I too can stretch things...

385778[/snapback]

This statement right here goes a long way towards explaining why it can be so difficult to explain the difference between aesthetic design, and physical shape and mechanics to people.

When I was in art school, the teachers tried their best to explain why it was important to have a solid basis in realism, even if all you wanted to draw was cartoons. However many of the students just didn't grasp this concept. They wanted to draw cartoons, so why bother learning realistic anatomy and proportions? They would rather teach themselves to draw based on cartoons drawn by others. However, when you draw from other's drawings, you're at least one step removed from realistic anatomy and proportions right there, and every mistake you make, every stylistic quirk, is compounded with those of your inspiration.

When you draw from reality, you can stylize things more believably, and more self-consistantly, than when you stylize from another's already stylized drawings.

Now, I'm not suggesting that the designers of the VF-2SS were bad at drawing, not at all, however where Kawamori based his inspiration from real worl avation, and specifically the F-14 Tomcat, it's obvious that the designers of the VF-2SS based their inspiration on Kawamori's VF-1, and went from there. While there might be some lingering semblance to the F-14, the VF-2SS is still a step or three removed that original inspiration and moving in a decidedly more stylized direction.

[the white drew carey]

OK, wait...

To anyone who is foolish enough to say that the rate of development in the Macross Universe is unrealistic because of how much it varies, remember this: Overtechnology.

Let me say it again:

OVERTECHNOLOGY.

Mankind was thrown a bone with the ASS-1. Where, beforehand, mankind had to develop technology, he now has a treasure trove dumped on his lap. That type of sudden advancement allows for different parties to veer away from the "tried and true" and use their newfound tech to venture in different directions.

Meanwhile, in the MacII Universe, it's 80 years after SWI, and yet UN Spacy is only on their SECOND GENERATION VF!?!? OK, that's just really, really bad storytelling (which is actually what makes MacII bad, not the mecha). It is human nature to try to make bigger and better weapons, as fast as you can, and especially when you have a constant threat. By the time any country wheels out their next-generation fighter, you'd better bet that they're already working on the one to replace it!

Personally, I find the rapid and varied technological advancement in Macross to be much more believable than the stagnation seen in MacII.

[Phalanx]

Personally, I find the rapid and varied technological advancement in Macross to be much more believable than the stagnation seen in MacII.

385991[/snapback]

I agree with you white drew carey about this point where the variation of technology in SK's official Macross world is more believable realistic and consistent than M2 but thats in terms of 2 completely differnt things in the case of the VF designs in Macross and the avionics and weapon system technology where you have the designs of the VF-19 having variable geometry swept forward wings and having the pin-pont barrier system as an example opposed to the VF-2SS retaining much of the key components of the VF-0, and VF-1 in terms of their battroid component layout like the head below the fighter behind the cockpit and the arms tucked between the engine nacelles of the fighter and not having a pin point barrier system despite the fatc that it takes place farther in to the future and you would expect some radical form of technology in the weapons sysytems and avionics of the M2 valks. So the point is, the technological advancement and variation in both worlds are consistent according to their time periods in terms of these things that I discussed.

[Radd]

Actually, isn't the VF-2SS the third or fourth generation Valkyrie? I was under the impression that MII somewhat follows some of the lesser known Macross videogames which featured Valkyries that looked to be somewhere inbetween the original designs, and the Macross II designs.

[the white drew carey]

Personally, I find the rapid and varied technological advancement in Macross to be much more believable than the stagnation seen in MacII.

385991[/snapback]

I agree with you white drew carey about this point where the variation of technology in SK's official Macross world is more believable realistic and consistent than M2 but thats in terms of 2 completely differnt things in the case of the VF designs in Macross and the avionics and weapon system technology where you have the designs of the VF-19 having variable geometry swept forward wings and having the pin-pont barrier system as an example opposed to the VF-2SS retaining much of the key components of the VF-0, and VF-1 in terms of their battroid component layout like the head below the fighter behind the cockpit and the arms tucked between the engine nacelles of the fighter and not having a pin point barrier system despite the fatc that it takes place farther in to the future and you would expect some radical form of technology in the weapons sysytems and avionics of the M2 valks. So the point is, the technological advancement and variation in both worlds are consistent according to their time periods in terms of these things that I discussed.

386004[/snapback]

Huh?

I'm not trying to offend or start an argument, and maybe it that huuuuuge sentence ( ), but I really don't get what you're saying there.

[bryan_f_davis@yahoo.com]

I am not trying to cause a commotion here, because I loved Macross II. However, I have been told this series is not considered part of the continuity of the Macross Universe. One of the guys I use to buy from told me MACROSS II IS A MOVIE PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN THE REAL MACROSS UNIVERSE WOULD GO TO SEE.

THis always confused me. Can anyone clairify this?

Again, I am a HUGE fan of the series, regardless. I especially love the VF-2ss. It is one mean looking Valkyrie. Just wanted to know if this fit into the timeline, and if so, does it contridict the Macross 7 story line?

Thanks for the thoughts.

[the white drew carey]

Actually, isn't the VF-2SS the third or fourth generation Valkyrie? I was under the impression that MII somewhat follows some of the lesser known Macross videogames which featured Valkyries that looked to be somewhere inbetween the original designs, and the Macross II designs.

386013[/snapback]

IIRC- Those other designs are simply lumped into the alternate universe because they aren't in the official timeline. I don't think there has actually been any indication, or attempt to state, that they are part of the MacII universe.

[Zinjo]

I suspect a better comparison would be this Gundam  from Gundam 0083 Stardust Memory (which came out in 1991) to the YF-19.  If we are to compare the SK designs of the 90's to Gundam.

Uhm, yeah, but uh, Kawamori designed that Gundam, too.

385965[/snapback]

Thanks for emphasizing my point...

...not having a pin point barrier system despite the fatc that it takes place farther in to the future and you would expect some radical form of technology in the weapons sysytems and avionics of the M2 valks.

386004[/snapback]

*Note Macross II pre-dates Macross Plus by about a year, so the fighter mounted pinpoint barrier system and even the 360 degree cockpit view was not made canon yet. So to imply that such advancements "should" have been in Macross II, is a bit erroneous.

[the white drew carey]

I am not trying to cause a commotion here, because I loved Macross II.  However, I have been told this series is not considered part of the continuity of the Macross Universe.  One of the guys I use to buy from told me MACROSS II IS A MOVIE PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN THE REAL MACROSS UNIVERSE WOULD GO TO SEE. 

THis always confused me.  Can anyone clairify this? 

Again, I am a HUGE fan of the series, regardless.  I especially love the VF-2ss.  It is one mean looking Valkyrie.  Just wanted to know if this fit into the timeline, and if so, does it contridict the Macross 7 story line? 

Thanks for the thoughts.

386024[/snapback]

That's a silly thing people say sometimes to justify MacII's existence.

Simply, MacII is a sequel made by BigWest without the full creative input of Studio Nue (IIRC- Only Mikimoto was involved, and that was as a character designer).

[Phalanx]

Well white drew carey since you don't want to offend me and don't want to start an argument I'll politely reiterate what I said as best and clear as I can:

Macross Universise Consistency- consistent and realistic in terms of the fact that there's various Valk designs and transitional advancement of technological aspects in SK VF's avionics like PPBS and BDS Sound Fource technology opposed to how the VF technology started off with basic avionics. To compensate: THERE'S A TRANSITIONAL AND REALISTIC ADVANCEMENT IN VF TECHNOLOGY and VARIOUS AIRFRAME DESIGNS between 2009-2045

Macross 2 Consistency- consistent in terms of the fact that the VF-2, both variants, RETAIN THE KEY DESIGN AESTHETIC AND BATTROID BODY PART LAYOUT of the VF-0 and VF-1, but UNREALISTIC due to the fact they use outdated technology and they use a design thats' based off a original design but seemingly jumps the design gap in terms of airframe design appearance . For example, it would be like the UN spacy using the VF-11, then the VF-19, and then using the VF-2SS. A clearer example would be the U.S using WW2 planes in WW2, jet planes during the Cold and Vietnam war, era and then going back to using WW2 planes again during the Iraq conflict.

Edited April 1, 2006 by Phalanx

[Zinjo]

I am not trying to cause a commotion here, because I loved Macross II.  However, I have been told this series is not considered part of the continuity of the Macross Universe.  One of the guys I use to buy from told me MACROSS II IS A MOVIE PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN THE REAL MACROSS UNIVERSE WOULD GO TO SEE. 

THis always confused me.  Can anyone clairify this? 

Again, I am a HUGE fan of the series, regardless.  I especially love the VF-2ss.  It is one mean looking Valkyrie.  Just wanted to know if this fit into the timeline, and if so, does it contridict the Macross 7 story line? 

Thanks for the thoughts.

386024[/snapback]

Macross II is considered to be a Macross alternate future story that is outside the Kawamori/Studio Nue Macross stories.

Some "Kawamori fans" hate the show because it was done without the man's blessing, while others are accepting of it, eventhough the story telling is a bit flawed.

IMO the story precepts are solid and well conceived, but there will be times when you wonder how they got from one point to another (I suspect the OVA's were meant to run longer than 6 eps.).

So the series is not part of the "Official Macross Continuity", yet it is a Macross story.

As for contradicting Mac 7, it doesn't story wise, as Mac 7 takes place several hundred light years from Earth and approximately 35 years earlier, but certain aspects of the show do contradict the established storyline. The Earth never uses old Zentreadi warships as buildings in the SK timeline, emigration fleets are never mentioned in Mac II, etc...

Essentially the contradictions are mostly visual and few technical bits, because the show predates all the Kawamori productions except DYRL.

Edited March 31, 2006 by Zinjo

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Meanwhile, in the MacII Universe, it's 80 years after SWI, and yet UN Spacy is only on their SECOND GENERATION VF!?!? OK, that's just really, really bad storytelling (which is actually what makes MacII bad, not the mecha). It is human nature to try to make bigger and better weapons, as fast as you can, and especially when you have a constant threat. By the time any country wheels out their next-generation fighter, you'd better bet that they're already working on the one to replace it!

Personally, I find the rapid and varied technological advancement in Macross to be much more believable than the stagnation seen in MacII.

It depends on how you want to see UNG. Were they in a arms race to have the best weapons, or do they no longer see aliens as a threat because of the use of minmay defence? In the story you can see how complacent they are in thier attitudes to combat. Hibiki's warnings to the government that they don't stand a chance mirrors misa's warning to the higher ups in SDF:Macross about the zentradi's superior numbers.

I can totally see people falling into a sleep after having just beaten the biggest threat to mankind after SWI with younger generations believing "It can never happen again". Both stories are believable but in different ways.

80 years with no big world war against hostile threat of massive size sounds pretty believable to me. Especially when you consider the aliens have merged with us and become a part of our own race, giving people a sense that all is well and that there can't possibly be any more threat in space to have to advance weapons further. The military may not have wanted to explore all that much either in the alternate universe. Maybe it just might have meant an increased chance you would bump into a hostile race again and endanger earth in its comfortable corner with no worries. (and I can see people not really caring what is out there and more concerned with things to do with thier everyday life)

Oh and I don't consider small conflicts as massive scale war more like mopping up a few rebels with SWI era technology who are too small to be of any prolonged threat. (see how many SDF they had in the show compared to only 1 in SDF: macross? Imagine the damage you could do with several larger main gun blasts and how 1 single shot could wipe out a fleet?)

Edited March 31, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Skull Leader]

Make no mistake... the plot of M2 was one of the biggest bottles of weak-sauce ever to hit the anime market, but the designs and music in some cases are worth beholding.

The VF-2S(S) Space Valkyrie and the VF-2J Icarus are excellent designs. Original? Hardly. Inspired? Definately. True life physics aside, they're really eye-catching.

Now the Metal Siren and the VF-XX Zentran Valkyrie FAIL at Macross. Period.

[Sundown]

Y'know, I'd never thought of that parallel before, but that's definately relevant as a comparsion. True, the Valkyrie II isn't much original on it's own, unless you count the special fast packs. Still, it's a nice looking design and it works well throughout the series. It's not quite like the "All Good Things" Enterprise D, where all they did was try to make it look different by making it a kitbashing project.

Actually, if anything, I'd say the VF-2 is to the VF-1 as the Excelsior is to the Constitution class (or maybe the movie Constitution to the TV series' Constitution). The VF-2 is a complete overhaul and design refinement (like it or not), not just a low-budget kitbash. And of course, the VF-0 would be the Enterprise from Enterprise, appearing strangely higher-tech for a prequel.

*Twitches in geeking out so much in one single post*

One of the guys I use to buy from told me MACROSS II IS A MOVIE PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN THE REAL MACROSS UNIVERSE WOULD GO TO SEE. 

Nope, that's DYRL.

*runs*

Edited March 31, 2006 by Sundown

[Radd]

As for contradicting Mac 7, it doesn't story wise, as Mac 7 takes place several hundred light years from Earth and approximately 35 years earlier, but certain aspects of the show do contradict the established storyline.  The Earth never uses old Zentreadi warships as buildings in the SK timeline, emigration fleets are never mentioned in Mac II, etc... 

Essentially the contradictions are mostly visual and few technical bits, because the show predates all the Kawamori productions except DYRL.

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Well, there is the little bit about completely dropping the Protoculture and the Supervision Army, and replacing them in the story with the Marduk as the force behind the Zentradi.

[mechaninac]

SK "jock sniffing" aside, this is a beautiful design worthy of the Macross name.

And the Icarus is no slouch either...

And I as for the Marduk, the impression I got was that they were just another hostile alien race who happened to have enslaved a great number of Zentradi to use as cannon fodder. So the existence of the Marduk does not, in any way, contradict the Protoculture or the Supervision Army... they are just another enemy.

Edited March 31, 2006 by mechaninac

[mikeszekely]

The mecha in Macross II all had a kind of generic feel to them. I don't particularly like any of them, but if I had to pick a favorite from the series, the VF-2SS wouldn't be it. I'd say it's the Gilgamesh that Fef pilots.

[mikeszekely]

We all know full well that Kawamori was a fan of Gundam, and that he even named the bridge of the SDF-1 Macross after the fanzine his Gundam fanclub made while attending Keio University. Over time, the canon Macross mecha have started to look more and more like Gundams.

385526[/snapback]

I suspect a better comparison would be this Gundam from Gundam 0083 Stardust Memory (which came out in 1991) to the YF-19. If we are to compare the SK designs of the 90's to Gundam.

385899[/snapback]

I think you have it backward. If anything, with verniers in the shoulders and the rounded tops of the pilot areas, Gundams are starting to look more like valkyries.

[Phalanx]

Mike Szelsky, No offense but I honestly don't see any evidence that shows that Gundams are starting to look more like Valks topsy turvy opposed to SK's VFs are looking more like Gundams. IMHO, I think that they are kept in the same style and fashion according to their series' and design aesthetics. Can you find some feasible evidence that proves this please?

[Seto Kaiba]

Actually, isn't the VF-2SS the third or fourth generation Valkyrie? I was under the impression that MII somewhat follows some of the lesser known Macross videogames which featured Valkyries that looked to be somewhere inbetween the original designs, and the Macross II designs.

Well, depending on how you shake it, the VF-2SS is either a third or fourth generation Valkyire, when you account for some wonderfully similar designs in chronologically preceding videogames. The one I'm looking at it is one that our dear colleague the white drew carey should be intimately familiar with as he just completed a wallpaper of it not too long ago... the VF-1(A/J/S)R Valkyrie. I'm not gonna steal any more of Mahq's bandwidth, but you can go here (http://www.mahq.net/mecha/macross/macross2036/vf-1sr.htm) if you want to see it. I defy you to tell me that doesn't look like the father of the VF-2SS.

From what little we have on the VF-1SR Valkyrie from Macross 2036 it definately looks and flys like the VF-2SS. There's the head on the SR variant, which looks distinctly like the VF-2SS's head, but with the VF-1S's four head lasers, and instead of the "dome" above the eyes, it has that blister with the smaller sensor cluster. Then the body, which is more or less VF-1, with a few refinements. The more angular torso, the front end looks more streamlined, the hands have been changed from that puffy-looking TV-series hand to a slimmer and more mechanical looking version of the DYRL hand used on later models including the VF-2SS. Then there's also the semi-permament FAST pack system. Just like it's theoretical descendant, the Valkyrie II, the VF-1SR is almost never seen without it's enhanced FAST pack system, which incorporates missile launchers and beam cannons. Then it's gunpod has also been altered to something that definately looks more robust. Counting that, when you get up close to it's head, as in my attachment, and you'll see a definate similarity between the heads of the VF-1SR and the VF-2SS, and between the VF-1JR and VF-2JA. (From left to right the heads are the VF-1JR, VF-1SR, then VF-1AR).

The projected history including those would put the VF-1 Valkyrie first, then the VF-4 Lightning, then the VF-9 Cutlass, followed by the VF-1SR Valkyrie, and eventually on to the VF-2SS Valkyrie II, VF-2JA Icarus, and the VF-XX Zentradi Valkyrie (with several alternate names including "Wicked Angel"), and then their eventual replacement rolled out in prototype form only, the VF-1MS Metal Siren (conjectured to also use the title VF-3MS).

Despite Skull Leader's mistakes in fighter name for the VF-2SS and VF-2JA, I definately agree with his view of them. Sure, those designs may not be entirely original, but they're definately inspired and good looking designs. Like I said at the beginning, it's sort of like the difference between a old-model military Jeep, and an assault-equipped Humvee.

P.S.: I'm SO regretting opening that Valkyrie-Gundam comparison can of worms. Just let it go, people.

[Phalanx]

Good point you quoted out Seto about those unofficial VF-1 variants being interpreted as inbetweeners throughout the Macross universe. Now that I think about, this pretty much solves the problem about what VF designs were used through the time period of 2009 to 2090, the unofficial secondary timeline continuity for Macross spanning from Space War 1 to the Marduk war of Macross 2.

I think that the VF-4 and VF-9 shows some credibility of variation among the Macross Secondary timeline.

[Seto Kaiba]

One thing I should add to my prior statement...

The mecha development timeline I conjectured in my previous post is just that, conjecture. The VF-4 Lightning III and it's close cousin the VF-9 Cutlass were included because they were both in service before the timeline split between Macross II and Macross Plus at 2040. This neatly accounts for the introduction of the VF-1SR Valkyrie in the mid-to-late 2030's, and the design similarties between that design and the VF-2SS. However, there is still a small gap that can be accounted for in one of two ways.

First, the VF-1SR could have been pressed into a service life comparable to the F-14 Tomcat. A long and venerable service life with several technological freshenings along the way to ensure that the fighter remains up to pace with current weapons technology. This could also have included newer gunpods, improvements to the FAST packs and other, less visible changes which could account for the unique shape and configuration of the Valkyrie II's portable firearms and FAST packs.

The other possibility is that a mecha similar to the "VF-XS" posted on Nanashi's was introduced somewheres around the 2060-2070 period. If you look at that design, it could also be called the VF-2SA, because on the surface it greatly resembles a VF-2SS, with a different gunpod, and a rather odd looking head with the laser mounting being rather large, and the cannon being in a turret on the right side of the head, instead of the traditional top of the head placement for the A models. This could have been later developed into the VF-2SS which according to statements made in Macross II and elsewhere, was introduced just in time for the Zentradi invasion of 2079.

A rough timeline I've sketched out several times before follows:

VF-0 Phoenix (2008):

Prototype, retired with release of VF-1. There is no reason not to place this in the timeline, as the events of Macross Zero in no way are directly tied to the split in the timeline, as those of Macross Plus and 7 are.

VF-1 Valkyrie (2009-2020):

First full production model, canon dates for activation and replacement. This mecha forms the basis of the entire Macross II development timeline, and therefore it's appearance is both of canon import (DYRL) and of developmental necessity. The DYRL variant would seem to be more appropriate than the ones used in the TV series, because of design elements incorporated into the hands of the mecha.

VF-4 Lightning III (2020-2047):

Canon dates, stopped counting after 2047 freshening to VF-4G variant. This fighter forms the basis for several major design elements of the VF-2JA, and quite possibly several from the VF-2SS as well.

VF-9 Cutlass (2023-2029-2049):

Canon dates, but there is no canon date for it's retirment from service. It could conceivably go as far as 20 years. Included because of it's close relation to the VF-4 Lightning

VF-1SR Valkyrie (2035-2065):

Estimated lifespan, based upon available data. No official date for the activation or retirement of the VF-1SR is known. Relation to other mecha, including the VF-4 Lightning, VF-1 Valkyrie and VF-2SS Valkyrie II is based upon similarities in design of the mecha and it's armaments, as well as it's known placement in the timeline (2036).

VF-XS/2SA Valkyrie II (2065-2077):

Estimated lifespan, based upon the minor mecha development gap and my best estimations from the Macross II timeline. No real evidence of this mecha exists, aside from sketches.

VF-2SS Valkyrie II (2077-Still in service):

No signs of the VF-2SS being retired appear in Macross II. Based on statements made by Silvie Gena and other characters, the activation date of 2077, just before the Zentradi invasion of 2079 is an educated guess. The window of activation dates for replacing the existing main variable fighter could range as far as 2075-2079.

VF-1MS Metal Siren (In development ~ 2089):

Still in the prototype testing phase, only two known to exist, one mockup flown by Lt. Silvie Gena during the Moon Festival and severely damaged by a Marduk raiding party. The other was flown by Nexx during the last battle of the Marduk war, and presumably is still intact at the Macross Cannon orbital base.

Edited March 31, 2006 by Seto Kaiba

[Phalanx]

I see now, but what about the considerable possibility that the UN Spacy in the secondary Macross timeline might have gotten fed up with recycling the same design of a VF like in the primary official timeline of Macross where the UN Spacy started Project Super Nova to create a new VF to replace the VF-11 since it's design was outdated?

[Seto Kaiba]

I see now, but what about the considerable possibility that the UN Spacy in the secondary Macross timeline might have gotten fed up with recycling the same design of a VF like in the primary official timeline of Macross where the UN Spacy started Project Super Nova to create a new VF to replace the VF-11 since it's design was outdated?

386318[/snapback]

Well, this timeline and it's mecha are based largely upon the reasonable assumption that unlike the cold war era, the Zentradi are not developing new fighter or mecha designs, so the need for radical innovation was not as desperate. It's pretty much stated outright that the Zentradi's weapons and mecha are built by automated factories, and they have very limited capabilites to repair or design new mecha.

As to getting sick of recycling old designs, there are two fighters in the Macross II timeline that could account for that willingness to experiment with new designs. The first would be the VF-4 Lightning III, which can hardly be called a conventional design when compared against it's predecessor, the VF-1 Valkyrie. The other would have been introduced near the end of Macross II, that being the prototype for the VF-1MS Metal Siren, which is definately a radical design innovation of similar significance to the Project Super Nova valkyries.

Still, the development of radical new designs in fighters is something that comes along only once in a great while, nowadays. Speaking from an engineering standpoint, I can say that if a design happens to work and work well, then there isn't really a reason to radically reinvent it until you've run it to the absolute limit of what it can handle. For the UN, making the leap from ordinary jet fighters to variable fighters was one such major change made by sheer necessity. The VF-1 Valkyrie worked extremely well all told, and so there wouldn't really be a need to do something radical right off the bat. Enhancement to the existing, proven design would've been the prudent maneuver for them to make, and definately the most cost effective too. You can bet that once the war was over, the bloated, runaway military budget the Spacy had was cut after the threat was no longer in their faces.

[eugimon]

uhm... every generation of fighter produced in the modern era has been a pretty huge and jump over the previous version. Compare the raptor to the f-15 or joint strike fighter to the harrier and f-16. There's some freaking huge leaps there... or the tomcat to the intruder. All had some pretty huge changes... and if you bring the F-117 into the mix then you have a fundamental shift in the way fighters are designed and flown.

Given what we're doing now with technology, it's right silly to think that with access to alien tech that humans would still be plodding along with incremental design upgrades over nearly a century. The rapid tech upgrades in the standard Macross continuity makes far more sense.

Edited April 1, 2006 by eugimon

[Radd]

Not to mention the already noted leap in stealth technology between the F-117 and the B2 bomber.

[Seto Kaiba]

There is one factor you forgot to take into account about every generation producing a leap in technology. In developing the F-16, the F-117A and other fighters, humanity was working largely with technology it had developed and implemented itself. In Macross, they're applying an alien technology that is demonstratably not entirely understood to human designs. They're trying to boil thousands of years of development down using reverse engineering. I'd say just getting a functional Valkyrie prototype off the ground in ten years is a monumental achievement. After that it only makes sense that valktyrie technology would improve as humanity gained a complete understanding of each new technology.

[Zinjo]

Essentially the contradictions are mostly visual and few technical bits, because the show predates all the Kawamori productions except DYRL.

386057[/snapback]

Well, there is the little bit about completely dropping the Protoculture and the Supervision Army, and replacing them in the story with the Marduk as the force behind the Zentradi.

386197[/snapback]

Considering the story, why would there be a need to bring up the Protoculture. Hell even in Mac 7, it didn't pop up until half way through the series and that was because it was integral to the story.

As for the the Marduk replacing the Supervision Army, I tend to agree with you there. If the writers knew then what we all know now, I have no doubt the "Marduk" name would have been used, and the Supervision Army Kawamori describes in Mac 7 would have been the ones attacking instead.

SK established that microne sized Protoculture citizens were just as brainwashed into fighting the Civil war as the Zentreadi were. So it is no real stretch to write a story about the decendants of these Protoculture still commanding their Zentreadi soldiers as the Supervision Army.

[Zinjo]

385899[/snapback]

I think you have it backward. If anything, with verniers in the shoulders and the rounded tops of the pilot areas, Gundams are starting to look more like valkyries.

386255[/snapback]

Umm, noooo, the Gundams have always looked like that. They are busier now than they used to look, but the design is still essentially the same, since the early 80's.

Also the Gundam picture is a mecha from a show that came out 2 years BEFORE Macross Plus which is the show that first featured the YF-19 pictured above.