Anybody Like The Vf-2ss Space Valkyrie 2?

[Seto Kaiba]

Yeah, I get the overall point of the GBP armor, insofar as turning the Valkyrie into a quick and dirty destroid stand-in, or a mobile missile platform with tons of extra armor, but it still strikes me as odd that they never thought to add any more than missiles to the system. They could've taken a leaf from the SAP or Strike armor's book and added a pair of beam cannons, or extra gunpod reloads, or any variety of other useful augmentations that would potentially make the GBP more versitile. Of course the GBP on the VF-0 and VF-1 wouldn't quite work the reload concept, since the GPU-9 and GU-11 weren't field reloadable.

Y'know, taking the lower center of gravity from the engine's weight into account, the VF-4 does stand much less of a chance of doing a belly-flop inadvertantly. Still, something about it just doesn't quite feel right.

So long as we're talking unorthodox Macross II mecha...

For your consideration, one more Macross II mecha that seems to have been, at least on my site's old home, the object of some consternation regarding precisely HOW to classify it. Attached is the aptly named "Gerwalkroid' AGA-1JF. Like how the GBP series Valkyrie armor makes the Valkyrie into essentially a destroid, the Gerwalkroid is essentially the other side of the comprimise, a Destroid playing at being a Valkyrie. It flies, is loaded down with missile launchers on the wingtips, arms, legs, and shoulder joint, and a few other places. It's behavior in the Macross II anime lends to the theory that it's something of a VTOL support destroid, I suppose a space-capable replacement for the attack helecopter.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this unique and rather bizarre mecha.

Edited March 13, 2006 by Seto Kaiba

[Mr March]

*snip*

Y'know, taking the lower center of gravity from the engine's weight into account, the VF-4 does stand much less of a chance of doing a belly-flop inadvertantly. Still, something about it just doesn't quite feel right.

So long as we're talking unorthodox Macross II mecha...

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this unique and rather bizarre mecha.

379702[/snapback]

Oh, I agree. In fact, I think the VF-4 battroid would be awkward in spite of the mass distribution in the legs. The hips are just so damn narrow, leading to a small stance in battroid mode. Worse still, the torso is spread all over the place, probably the broadest shoulders of any of the Valkyries (and those two big engines on the outmost of each shoulder wouldn't help). The VF-4 might have been an improvement over the old VF-1, but I bet the UN Spacy suffers when it has to pay the maintenance cost to keep that poor contraption walking

I don't even recall the Gerwalkroid from Macross II, though this isn't surprising since I don't own the show and haven't watched it in years. I'd tend to agree that the mecha is built to suit a heavy weapons, low-altitude anti-mecha role just based on the stout design.

[kensei]

That mecha seems to me as a starship supporter, nothing else. It looks pissweak.

[Seto Kaiba]

I don't even recall the Gerwalkroid from Macross II, though this isn't surprising since I don't own the show and haven't watched it in years. I'd tend to agree that the mecha is built to suit a heavy weapons, low-altitude anti-mecha role just based on the stout design.

The Gerwalkroid really only appears in the last two episodes, Station Break and Sing Along, and yes, mostly as a starship supporter. It isn't front and center in the screen often, but I did include captures from when it is, barring when it's obscured by the trails from all the missiles it's launching. Judging by it's performance, I'd agree wtih the assessment of it being a starship support unit, at least partially. It's got the overall look of a VTOL attack unit (jets on the undercarriage facing down and front, turret-based guns, lots of missiles) and reminds me more than a bit of the AH-64 Apache.

I'll say this, by all animated evidence it's not a bad machine. The one that appears front and center doesn't get offed until after the Marduk's pet Zentradi start going berzerk (see also: "song of death") and he's suicidally rammed by a Zentradi he fatally wounded. Still, it does bring down an admirable number of power armor suits before it's destroyed.

[kensei]

True dat. It looks very simple compared to the other figher as well. Perhaps cheap to manufacture? I would have given it a touch more armaments than the designers did.

[Seto Kaiba]

True dat. It looks very simple compared to the other figher as well. Perhaps cheap to manufacture? I would have given it a touch more armaments than the designers did.

Well that depends, it's pretty well armed, by all accounts. Evidence from the artbooks and elsewhere shows that it's got 5 long-range missiles recessed into the shoulder joints, missile launchers stored on each wingtip, the arms and legs are carrying some sort of submunition-based missile system with 7 apertures on each arm and 9 on each leg, and a turret on the chin.

[Noyhauser]

Oh, I agree.  In fact, I think the VF-4 battroid would be awkward in spite of the mass distribution in the legs.  The hips are just so damn narrow, leading to a small stance in battroid mode.  Worse still, the torso is spread all over the place, probably the broadest shoulders of any of the Valkyries (and those two big engines on the outmost of each shoulder wouldn't help).  The VF-4 might have been an improvement over the old VF-1, but I bet the UN Spacy suffers when it has to pay the maintenance cost to keep that poor contraption walking

379768[/snapback]

Which is why the VF-5000 became the Mainstay of UN Spacy after 2020. The VF-4 reminds me of the Vought Cutlass, advanced for its time but too much trouble in its aerodynamics and maintence for its worth.

(still one of my favorite fighters though)

[Nied]

Which is why the VF-5000 became the Mainstay of UN Spacy after 2020. The VF-4 reminds me of the Vought Cutlass, advanced for its time  but too much trouble in its aerodynamics and maintence for its worth.

(still one of my favorite fighters though)

379934[/snapback]

I don't know if that's really a valid comparison, the Cutlass was largely a failure it was withdrawn from service very quickly with only a few hundred being produced.

The VF-4 on the other hand had a decade long production run with over 8,000 fighters produced, and it was successful enough to spawn an upgrade project that kept it serving until at least 2047. It did have the VF-5000 replace it in the title of main Variable Fighter sometime after 2025 when a plethora of newer specialized designs started to enter service, but the Spacy didn't start to withdraw it from front line service until 2030.

Edited March 13, 2006 by Nied

[Noyhauser]

Hmm I guess it is streching it a bit... although there are similarities. The cutlass, despite its troubles was quite popular with pilots, and many of its nagging problems had been resolved by the time it was removed from service.

Comparisons about its length of service are unhelpful. The cutlass was built during an era of massive technological change... by 1960 you had engines that could put out as much power as two of the J46 engines that serviced the Cutlass.

[emajnthis]

Forgive me for coming in kind of out of nowhere, but even in the show the VF-2SS was (as far as i can remember) never shown in the atmosphere, the VF-2JA was the primary atmospheric fighter.

Seto Kaiba the YF-21/VF-22 seemed (IMO) more largely based on the design of the YF-23 than the F-22, as the 23 was very thin and sleek and had at the time what would be considered a variable wing design (the rear flaps of the wings could do more than just swivel up and down but could also split in half and serve as a type of airbrake and assist in amazing maneuverability) and also in relation to the Macross universe lost to it's competition over politics (but unlike Macross didn't get a second chance).

Personally i liked most of the MII mecha, especially the VF-2SS and the Metal Siren, but i'd have to agree that while the VF-2SS would make an ideal space fighter, that it would make an awful atmospheric fighter and is probably only in the design as a safety if atmospheric entry becomes necessary.

[Zinjo]

I like most of the "filmed" Valk designs. I take exception to the VF-19 Kai, mostly because of the stupid face plate (now there is a "Gundamized" valk!).

When SK started going into gundamized designs with the Valks he started to loose me ("feet instead of nozzels for the legs, faces on the head, etc...).

My favs thus far are the VF-2SS Valk II, the VF-0, VF-1, VF-11 & VF-19 Excalibur.

Does the VF-2SS need an update? Sure. With all the tech introduced in Mac Plus and Mac 7, it should get a technical overhaul, but design wise it is fine.

To me it looks like it was developed by the same team who designed the VF-3000 and VF-5000. It would require a VF number change to fit properly into the canon universe however.

In light of what has been established in the Mac universe thus far I suspect the SAP system would have to be revised as well.

IMHO

[Radd]

I don't think people are mainly talking about the tech, when saying the VF-22 doesn't fit in with the canon Macross universe, it's the aesthetic design to it. It's a lot more sci-fi-ish, and not based on real world aircraft like all of Kawamori's designs are.

I believe the comparison with Yukikaze's style of aesthetics is valid, although I would say the VF-2SS looks more like somewhere inbetween Macross and Yukikaze in style.

[azrael]

I don't think people are mainly talking about the tech, when saying the VF-22 doesn't fit in with the canon Macross universe, it's the aesthetic design to it. It's a lot more sci-fi-ish, and not based on real world aircraft like all of Kawamori's designs are.

380217[/snapback]

You mean the VF-2 right? Cuz the VF-22 is somewhat based off a real-world aircraft.

[mechaninac]

I believe the comparison with Yukikaze's style of aesthetics is valid, although I would say the VF-2SS looks more like somewhere inbetween Macross and Yukikaze in style.

380217[/snapback]

Wouldn't that make Yukikaze's aircrafts reminiscent of the VF-2SS and not the other way around, since the Valkyrie II predates the Yukikaze stuff by about a decade?

Personally I think the VF-2SS is a beautiful design, although it deviates a bit from established Macross aesthetics in its Gundam/Patlabor design cues. However, comparing it to anything other than the VF-1 and VF-4 is rather unfair due to when the mecha was penned; all other canon VFs were design after Macross II came out, AFAIK.

Edited March 14, 2006 by mechaninac

[Radd]

You mean the VF-2 right? Cuz the VF-22 is somewhat based off a real-world aircraft.

380223[/snapback]

Quite correct! I mean't the VF-2SS, not the VF-22 with its YF-23 origins.

Wouldn't that make Yukikaze's aircrafts reminiscent of the VF-2SS and not the other way around, since the Valkyrie II predates the Yukikaze stuff by about a decade?

No one said the VF-2SS took any stylistic cues from Yukikaze, only that there are similarities in the thoughts in design behind them.

And there's nothing 'unfair' about comparing it to other mech designs, whether they were designed before or after. A mech design is a mech design. There has been no significant advancement in imagination to make newer designs somehow superior to things imagined before.

[mechaninac]

No one said the VF-2SS took any stylistic cues from Yukikaze, only that there are similarities in the thoughts in design behind them.

380239[/snapback]

My statement was made "tongue in cheek". It was not my intention to suggest that you, or anyone else, made any such implication as to the VF-2SS's design origins.

And there's nothing 'unfair' about comparing it to other mech designs, whether they were designed before or after. A mech design is a mech design. There has been no significant advancement in imagination to make newer designs somehow superior to things imagined before.

380239[/snapback]

Maybe I should have clarified my point: comparison of inherent strengths and weaknesses, aerodynamic efficiencies and deficiencies, and other "technical" criteria are, obviously fair game; it's the stylistic comparisons that give me pause. The VF-2SS was perfectly fine as the linear successor to the VF-1 and VF-4 until the release of M+; that's when the Valkyrie II becomes a step child in the fighter evolution continuity and relegated to alternate universe/non-canon status.

All that aside, I still like the line of the thing, specially without the SAP attached... and the VF-2JA Icarus is no slouch either.

[Radd]

The VF-2SS is based very heavily on the VF-1 design, in that regard, if no other Valkyries had been produced, one could argue this reasonably. The VF-2SS is a step towards the more fanciful, stylized, sci-fi realm of design.

However, the VF-4 is a step in the opposite direction of the VF-2SS, and the VF-4 came first. The VF-4 points down the road to Plus, and Kawamori's continued real world influence in Valkyrie design.

Along with the VF-2JA and the Metal Siren, MII presents a continuity where the basic Valkyrie design does not change very much, with the major differences being cosmetic and in their performance. All three MII Valkyries are streamlined versions of the VF-1 with a more sci-fi-ish look to them.

In this way, the VF-4 also presents a step in the opposite direction, with the basic design seeing different influences on its design, leading to a craft that could never be confused as another take on the VF-1.

[mechaninac]

I'm not arguing with any of that, but the VF-4 does not, in any way, negate the VF-2SS, or the VF-2JA and MS, from the continuity until M+ is introduced. The VF-4 (my 4th favorite VF design) is a radical looking bird to be sure, but the fact that it does not lead, design wise, to the VF-2SS is not a "real" consideration, IMO, and even in the canon continuity it's only linear descended is the VF-14, if I'm not mistaken; most other VFs (VF-9, VF-17, VF-22 excepted) have a fighter structure reminiscent of the VF-1... arms tucked between legs.

If I were to pick a real world example to illustrate my point it would be WWII's P-38 Lightning, with the Black Widow as it's only "descendent". I'm sure there must be plenty of jet era examples, but I can't think of one right now.

[Radd]

I suppose the only question to ask then, what consideration are we talking about? Anything can be argued about anything if the criteria for the discussion are left open enough.

Is the VF-2SS a "Macross" design? Sure. It's a VF-1 without the real world influences to its design. Where Kawamori looked to the F-14 to design the VF-1, the designers of the VF-2SS only looked so far as the VF-1 itself. It retains the basic look and transformation of one of the world's most recognizable mecha. No one could confuse it for anything but a VF-1 derivative. I'm not arguing against that idea.

I've only pointed out where it deviates from the design aesthetic present in its ancestor, the VF-1, and the VF-1's replacement, the VF-4. Do these deviations make the VF-2SS unsuitable to the Macross universe? Of course not. Arguing what designs could and and could not belong in a fictional universe is silly. One could argue that Starscream could potentially be some far flung descendant of a VF-1, arms tucked between the legs and all. The franchise owners decide what could and could not belong, and depending on whose opinion you share, the series creator is the end all, be all of what designs 'could' occur.

[mechaninac]

Ultimately, it falls to personal preferences/biases. If one is of the opinion that anything that wasn't specifically drawn or blessed by Kawamori is not Macross, even though it appears in a production so named (once you make it and distribute it, you can't unmake it), then the Macross II mecha are to be completely ignored. And if you happen to like all VF designs, even those not sanctioned by the grand pubah himself, which appear in Manga and Anime form with Big West's blessings, then a place can be made for all the Macross hardware, MII included, albeit in an alternate universe that diverges from the accepted canon some time after FB2012 and before M+. The criteria for discussion, however, was VFs that have appeared in Macross and its many incarnations; thus, Starscream and any other transforming mecha not associated with the Macross name (Legioss, for example) are non sequiturs.

And you are absolutely right about inclusion discussions; those who don't like the VF-2SS will come up with any number of silly arguments why it can't belong, and those who do will come up with equally silly reasons why it can. It's all one silly mess in the end.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Personally I don't think it's that bad that things look a bit sci fi.

Take the variable glaug for example. The zents had thier original glaug with that distinctive cockpit they like from the tv series. When you see that distinctive canopy on the variable version you can say that logically the aliens are sticking true to thier design.

They are probably more likely going to fight in space so it makes sense there would be variable mecha closer to what they were used to using. While the humans get variations on thier atmoshperic variable fightters. (ie note the short wings of the vf19 compared to the yf19)

Some look good for space, (massive guns that just wouldn't be practical on earth gravity) others look good for atmoshere. (based on what the current tech is from the real world) Ain't variety great?

Like the space use vf19 the vf2ss is just a design close to what the human used (vf1) but with all that stuff like FAST packs (extra cannon and micromissiles and armor) added on to it that would not be needed if they were on earth. A ship that floats in space a lot would probably be using fighters more for space while the guys on earth would care more about aerodynamics. It may be the reason the zentradi were less fierce fighters on earth compared to space because they are not used to fighting in the atmoshpere and their mecha like the Qrau are meant for space combat. (thus the explanation for rounded shapes over the humans' aerodynamic streamlined stuff)

Edited March 15, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[bryan_f_davis@yahoo.com]

For my pennies worth,

The VF-2SS is an amazing piece of mecha. One of the neatest designs...more of a DEEP SPACE warcraft...but so sweet looking.

The YF-19 and 21 are great too...but, the 2SS is damn sweet. Look at how intimidating it is with the fast packs!

Yeah, its a nice addition to the Valkyrie family.

[Zinjo]

My only point on the comment about why a space fighter needs air intakes is, Why do nuclear powered variable fighters such as the VF-1 et al, need air intakes anyway?

The VF0 needed them, but none of it's successors did...

It's all aesthetics kids, all the way up to Kawamori's VF22.

Arguing about how "realistic" the VF-2 valks of Mac II are compared to the many "eccentric" designs SK came up with for the Macross universe is fairly pointless.

Most of the Kawamori designs were exercises of the man's engineering curiosity.

My personal preference excludes all but the VF-11 from the Macross 7 series. In my preferences the other fighters are far too gundamized and gawdy for my tastes.

I like gundam, just not in a Macross series...

This debate is much like the debate over Macross 7, in that it will invariably come down to personal preferences, rather than any irrefutable technical reasons.

[Radd]

Arguing about how "realistic" the VF-2 valks of Mac II are compared to the many "eccentric" designs SK came up with for the Macross universe is fairly pointless.

I'm not so certain about that. Afterall, like everything in life it's a matter of degree.

Think of it in the perspective of this old artist analogy. If an artist works from real life and exaggerates and stylizes from there, their work will have more consistancy and flow together more smoothly, than the work of an artist who snubs real life and takes their original inspiration from another artist's already stylized work.

Beyond my limited knowledge of aerodynamics I wouldn't argue that Kawamori's mecha are more realistic (however, that limited knowledge of aerodynamics does tell me that Kawamori's work is, at least in general, based more in reality than the VF-2SS), however they do share a likeness to real world aircraft that the Macross II mecha lack.

This last point, at least, is not a matter of opinion, but observation. It is also not a matter of personal preference. Afterall, we are talking about a sci-fi series here, so whether the designs are more based in fantasy, or more based in reality is not something that one can objectively scale good to bad, and in these statements I'm making no such personal judgement.

On a final note, I recall hearing an explanation about the air intakes. I'm sure one of our more tech minded members can fill in the details. My hazy recollection seems to have something about Valkyries needing to carry more onboard fuel when in space because they can't use the intakes there.

[Sumdumgai]

Now that I think about it. Macross II valkyries are the only valkyries I've seen get jammed during transformatoin. Another strike against them, since I don't ever recall seeing a valkyrie getting jammed mid transformation in SDF:Macross, DYRL, Macross Plus, or even Macross Zero with their test platform valks (I've only seen a few episodes of M7).

Yeah in M+ the gunpod jams on a VF-11, but the valkyrie itself didn't get stuck while transforming! How embarassing!

[Seto Kaiba]

Now that I think about it. Macross II valkyries are the only valkyries I've seen get jammed during transformatoin. Another strike against them, since I don't ever recall seeing a valkyrie getting jammed mid transformation in SDF:Macross, DYRL, Macross Plus, or even Macross Zero with their test platform valks (I've only seen a few episodes of M7).

Yeah in M+ the gunpod jams on a VF-11, but the valkyrie itself didn't get stuck while transforming! How embarassing!

Your statement lacks something... context.

True, the VF-2SS is the first valkyrie to ever be shown getting stuck in mid-transformation. But you left out WHY it got stuck halfway between fighter and battroid mode.

The Valkyrie II in question was hit through the upper left side of the torso, a few feet in from the shoulder joint, right where the fighter mode fuselage folds in half to form the front and back of the battroid. Obviously it damaged or froze some of the mechanical components in the transformation process, and thus locked the Valkyrie in a very undignified and vulnerable position.

This isn't a problem specific to the VF-2SS, this is a potential problem in ANY variable mecha. Damage to the integral mechanisms of the transformation would be problematic for anything that transforms like a valkyrie or similar mecha. It would be like blowing a few gears out of your car's transmission, or one of a harrier's VTOL jets getting damaged in combat. Just because the Valkyrie II is the only one SEEN having that problem doesn't mean that it isn't likely to happen to other valkyries. It's a little more realistic to have that possibility on the table, since in a real war, you don't have the convienant plot device of enemies being so amazed or mystified by the transformation that they forget to shoot at you, or are too stunned to score a hit.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Yeah in M+ the gunpod jams on a VF-11, but the valkyrie itself didn't get stuck while transforming! How embarassing!

I thought that was clever. It brings in the whole: "maybe it is safer to ram him with a PPB punch or stab him with melee weapon" factor into mecha combat. Given the limited amount of ammo of a typical valk, I see running out of bullets as a realistic thing happening given the number of zentradi. And remember when max head laser overheated in SDF:Macross?

And the gun jamming while in space means all the more danger: no gravity to slow down the incoming robot which wants to blind your sensors up close range and disable them, or just punch holes in the cockpit to kill you. (ie if britai could do it with his bare fists to dent the armor, imagine a Qrau powered armor dashing at high speed with full force?)

I can see now what it would be like then for a VB6 using its robot mode hands to be a close range battering weapon. (similar to the spartan billy club) Yeah it has no hand carried weapon in robot mode like the zentradi male powered armor but it doesn't need one because of how you can flip its arms around to shoot as well. They should make a valk just like that.

The VB6 could probably just pick up a vf1 with its hands and use that as a weapon by throwing it or swinging it around.

Edited March 28, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Zinjo]

On a final note, I recall hearing an explanation about the air intakes. I'm sure one of our more tech minded members can fill in the details. My hazy recollection seems to have something about Valkyries needing to carry more onboard fuel when in space because they can't use the intakes there.

383260[/snapback]

What fuel? It's a pair of Nuclear powerplants!

The only fueled engines I'm aware of are the fast packs which are only rocket boosters. Now I may be wrong about them as well, they too may be nuclear powerplants, since none of the technical drawings show any substantial fuel tanks (I may have missed them, but I don't recall seeing any).

As I've said before, it's a matter of aesthetics, rather than any apparent (IMO) functionality.

.............

One can make an argument that the VF-4 was the bastard child of the VF Skunkworks. The next time we see a production model Valk in the filmed Kawamori universe it's a VF-11 (sweet bird!), which has absolutely no resemblance to the VF-4 and tends to lean more toward the VF-1 design, kind of like a missing link between the VF-1 and the YF-19.

Does that discount the VF-4 design or those who love it? No! Personal preference prevails.

As with all mecha in the show.

To be frank, I can think of several story changes to Mac II that would allow it to slide very nicely into current Macross Canon, but that would require the show to be redone, with the current SK timeline taken into consideration and I suspect the overall story could be improved by it as well (but that is getting off topic).

Edited March 28, 2006 by Zinjo

[Sumdumgai]

Now that I think about it. Macross II valkyries are the only valkyries I've seen get jammed during transformatoin. Another strike against them, since I don't ever recall seeing a valkyrie getting jammed mid transformation in SDF:Macross, DYRL, Macross Plus, or even Macross Zero with their test platform valks (I've only seen a few episodes of M7).

Yeah in M+ the gunpod jams on a VF-11, but the valkyrie itself didn't get stuck while transforming! How embarassing!

Your statement lacks something... context.

True, the VF-2SS is the first valkyrie to ever be shown getting stuck in mid-transformation. But you left out WHY it got stuck halfway between fighter and battroid mode.

The Valkyrie II in question was hit through the upper left side of the torso, a few feet in from the shoulder joint, right where the fighter mode fuselage folds in half to form the front and back of the battroid. Obviously it damaged or froze some of the mechanical components in the transformation process, and thus locked the Valkyrie in a very undignified and vulnerable position.

384744[/snapback]

I saw the Macross II movie version, I dont recall seeing damage on the valkyrie when it got jammed. But then again I haven't watched Macross II since the mid 90s. Damn I feel old now!

And LowViz, the "how embarassing" was about the VF-2 getting jammed while transforming. Jamming guns and running out of ammo isn't embarassing (unless you're Revolver Ocelot in MGS3), having your valkyrie jam mid transformation is. Having energy weaponry is the way to go on limbs and other parts. That way you don't have explosive munitions to blow apart your plane if you're hit.

[Radd]

What fuel?  It's a pair of Nuclear powerplants!

Woah, I'm no nuclear scientist, but even I know they that nuclear engines require some fuel source.

One can make an argument that the VF-4 was the bastard child of the VF Skunkworks.  The next time we see a production model Valk in the filmed Kawamori universe it's a VF-11 (sweet bird!), which has absolutely no resemblance to the VF-4 and tends to lean more toward the VF-1 design, kind of like a missing link between the VF-1 and the YF-19.

Does that discount the VF-4 design or those who love it?  No!  Personal preference prevails.

Please reread all of my previous posts, from the beginning. I'd be repeating myself to reply to this.

Edited March 28, 2006 by Radd

[mechaninac]

To my understanding, the power plants in VFs may be nuclear (VF-0 and SV-51 excepted), but the engines themselves are a hybrid ramjet/ion propulsion. In order to produce thrust in an atmosphere you require air to accelerate out the feet thrusters: Air comes in through the intakes and is routed to a compression chamber where it is super heated by a heat exchanger of the nuclear reactor, and this hot gas is shot out the back as it expands to generate thrust, and combustible fuel can be added to the mix to increase thrust by means of an afterburner. In space there would be no air to compress, heat and/or combust, so you'd need to carry your own supply of reaction mass; in this case, the engine could strip the fuel of electrons to accelerate them in a EM field and push them out the exhaust at a prodigious rate of speed to generate forward thrust... you can generate quite a bit of electricity with a nuclear power plant. Or the reaction mass is simply ignited by the heat generated by power plants.

Regardless of the working details, even a nuclear powered aircraft requires an air intake to feed the engine in an atmosphere... you need to push something out the back in order to move. The only way that a VF would not need air in an atmosphere is if it carried its own supply of fuel and oxidizer (self contained rocket motor).

Edited March 28, 2006 by mechaninac

[Radd]

Well said.

[Zinjo]

One can make an argument that the VF-4 was the bastard child of the VF Skunkworks.  The next time we see a production model Valk in the filmed Kawamori universe it's a VF-11 (sweet bird!), which has absolutely no resemblance to the VF-4 and tends to lean more toward the VF-1 design, kind of like a missing link between the VF-1 and the YF-19.

Does that discount the VF-4 design or those who love it?  No!  Personal preference prevails.

Please reread all of my previous posts, from the beginning. I'd be repeating myself to reply to this.

384964[/snapback]

From what I've read it appears we are saying similar things regarding design, only differently, so I don't see any need for a comment on my statement above.

Edited March 28, 2006 by Zinjo

[Seto Kaiba]

Sumdumgai, the scene in question is during the last major battle scene, in "Marduk Disorder" I believe, right after the emulators begin singing the Song of Death.

EDIT: For some reason I originally said "Marduk Syndrome." That's what I get for typing that during a lecture.

Edited March 28, 2006 by Seto Kaiba

[Radd]

From what I've read it appears we are saying similar things regarding design, only differently, so I don't see any need for a comment on my statement above.

385069[/snapback]

My statements have been that there is a consistent aesthetic to every canon Macross Valkyrie design, from the VF-1, to the VF-4, to the YF-19 and the VF-22, that is lacking in the Macross II mecha designs.

It seemed to me that you were suggesting it could be argued that because the VF-4 has such a different physical design from the VF-1, that it would be further seperated in lineage and therefore it is only personal preference that suggests the VF-4 is more consistant to the Macross universe than the VF-2SS.