Tamiya Paints: Some Kind Of Cruel Joke On Modelors

[promethuem5]

Alright, this might seem newbie-ish and frustrated, but I'm really pissed off. Has anyone else here ever used Tamiya paints on a model? I ask because I just finished a Zaku with it, and I think I'm going to have to strip it or something and I'm really mad because I'll have to buy a new decal sheet and ruin the model doing it. To start off, I had an absolutely aweful time working with the stuff to begin with. First, it covered awefully after being shaken up a whole heck of a lot. Second, I tried to weather a part with Tamiya Smoke, and the smoke ate the other paint! So, I had to clean up that mess. Another problem is that the stuff only takes about 48 hours for a thin coat to dry to the touch. Anything before that and you'll have a model covered in fingerprints. Next, inks over the stuff suck. The finbsih is wretched, and the inks pool and cling together, not getting into the crevices and pooling on all the wrong surfaces or simply dripping right off (It's not a bad ink mix, I've been doing inks for years.) Next, after finally getting the model done and sealed, I leve it to sit for quite a long while (long enough for any other model to be rock hard dried and fhinished) and as soon as I start the final assemblies and touching the kit, the paint chips ALL OVER! Honestly, when I look at the model funny, paint chips off. Basically all the paint on the upper legs by the skirt armor, the tops of the feet by the ankle armor, the wrist where the gun contacts it, everywhere. This stuff has got to be the worst paint I've ever used, and now I don't know what to do short of stripping the model and compeltley redoing it with some good old fashioned Citadel paints and proper stuff. Has anyone else ever used this crap? Did I do something horribly wrong with the paint, or worse, something horribly wrong to deserve such misfortune? And then after all that, the stuff is relatively expensive. I buy paints that cost more than this and they are amazing, some of the best paints on the market, and then I buy a couple pots of this crap, and it is utter garbage. All I can say is, what the hell?

[azrhino]

Wow! You must have been beaten by the "bad luck stick".

I have never had that kind of problem with Tamiya paints. I wonder if you got a

bad batch, or it got contaminated some how. Since it is acrylic, it should be dry

to the touch within minutes after shooting it through an airbrush.

What did you use to thin it? I'm not saying you did anything wrong, I'm just

trying to get a better picture of the overall situation.

The other possibility is something like mold release on the plastic.

As for the Tamia smoke, I couldn't say on that one. The only thing I might have

done differently is seal it with Future before doing the weathering, but with all

the bad things that happened, I don't know if that would have helped.

As for fixing it, unfortunately it sounds like you will have to strip the old paint off

and try again.

Better luck on the next try.

[promethuem5]

I washed the plastic parts thouroughly and thinned the paints with watert (I brush paint.)

[Grayson72]

You should thin tamiya paints with Alcohol 97% or whatever the highest you can find. The water definately did you in on the drying time, I know that one from experience, air temp can really mess with dry time as well.

[honneamise]

Yes you should use alcohol instead of water or -even better- the Tamiya thinner. Did you prime your model? You really should to make the paint stick better, but only within the same paint system, so the primer has to be acrylic, too.

You stated that you use Citadel - I ALWAYS work with Citadel Skull white or Chaos black as primer spray, then use Tamiya and/or Gunze on top of it, works fine.

The only reason I could think of why the smoke dissolved the other paint was that it was thinned with water. Water usually doesn´t stick to plastic, and while the acrylics do kinda compensate this effect to a certain extent, the more water you use, the more fragile the layer of paint. Had you used white spirit or Tamiya thinner (and maybe a clear coat to further seal it as Grayson72 stated), the smoke would have done no harm to it. This is also the reason for the paint chipping.

Whenever you change to new colours, there are always new techniques to be learned and a certain "getting used to it" before everything goes well. I experienced similar catastrophies when I changed to acrylics over 10 years ago so I know how feel. But give it another take, the Tamiya paints ARE fine! They are kinda tricky to brush, though, I alwas got the feeling that they were designed for airbrushing, but that doesn´t mean they cannot be brushed.

As for your Zaku, it should be easy to clean it up again, just bath it in white spirit and the paint will come off at once. The decals might be saved if you put the whole model in water for some hours, maybe they come off that way....

I hope you won´t be too dicouraged from your experience, all I can say is that IMO the Tamiya paints are worth their money.

[big F]

In my experience I have only had problems with Tamiya when I use anything but the Tamiya Thinners. It would seem that htey just dont like anythin but thier own brand thinners. Its a shame as they only come in smallish tins and bottles as for the price of the largest container I can get a Gallon of Iso.

Mixing Tamiya with water can sometimes work out but mostly I have found it doesnt.

Brushing it You always need to do several coats as it always goes thin in some areas.

I have found that a base primer makes it behave better.

[David Hingtgen]

Generally, Tamiya "everything" is universally praised as among the best. Their tape and putty and lacquer paints simply rock. Acrylic paint---better than most acrylics.

But I do think thinning with water is probably it--I generally don't thin Tamiya to brush paint. And Japanese paints (Tamiya, Gunze) do seem much more "discriminating" in that they prefer their own brand of thinner--substitutes don't work as well.

Finally---are you sure you got fresh paint? I mean, I could easily drive to a store and buy a 5 year old bottle of paint. It all depends on what that store sells.

Edited February 7, 2006 by David Hingtgen

[promethuem5]

Well, primer seems to be a universal consensus as to at least part of my dillema... It could ahve been old paint too, DH, as I bought it from this dinky little store that I doubt sells out of the stuff often. Thanks for the advice though guys, but for right now at least this stuff sounds more complicated than it's worth. At least I actually got help on this forum. I posted the same comment on a Gundam modeling forum, and the site owner (who's models are /clearly/ better than mine) posted back that I was obviosuly an idiot, locked my thread, and put me on some kind of 'posting probation.' All I can say is "Well, there goes the fun in that hobby."

[Sdf-1]

I posted the same comment on a Gundam modeling forum, and the site owner (who's models are /clearly/ better than mine) posted back that I was obviosuly an idiot, locked my thread, and put me on some kind of 'posting probation.'  All I can say is "Well, there goes the fun in that hobby."

367638[/snapback]

What?!?

Edit: Unless it was because of some of the words in your post.

Edited February 7, 2006 by Sdf-1

[promethuem5]

I don't think that was it... I used the same comment, but it didn't have the wtf subtitle, so it really wasn't too innapropriate... and it isn't too angry of a comment, more of a list of the faults I found. He closed the thread 'so that I couldn't mislead anymore people on a great product.' I can't decide if I'm more pissed now about the paints or how big an a-hole this guy is.

[Sdf-1]

Well, I don't get it how are people supposed to learn modeling if they can't ask, whatever they wonder... There aren't many so complex hobbies as models.

[wm cheng]

Wow! so sorry to hear about the probs P5...

After using just about every kind of modelling paint on the market (I don't know about this Citidel - is it a figure RPG paint?) - I really do believe Tamiya acrylics are the best I've ever used. I almost exclusively use them for everything now - with the exception of metallics (Alclad) and clear coats (ModelMaster).

There are a few things;

1. Don't thin Tamiya with water! Firstly, if they are new paints, their consistency is proper for brush painting - only thin when you need to airbrush them. If you need to thin, splurge for the real Tamiya thinner - its not that much more expensive (especially considering the amount of time you put into the model!). Saving a few cents on rubbing/iso alcohol is not worth it! Plus there are flow agents in the Tamiya thinner. When its too thin or thinned with water, Acylics tend to bead up on plastics and you will not get a proper adhesion to the styrene.

2. Think about each stage you do first - work out what you want to do in your mind before you do it. Think about Tamiya smoke, its the same stuff as the acrylic paint - so its solvent base will be the same. If you apply smoke on top of another layer of acrylic and use it to weather, when you rub, you will rub away some of the paint beneath because the solvents are the same and will react to the layer undereath. That's why most people "seal" in each layer with something that has a different solvent base so it protects whats underneath ie; ModelMaster clear-coat semi-gloss or future floor polish.

3. Glossy paints take more time to dry. Are you painting with glossy paints? It also sounds as though you are painting much too thickly with the brush (or its too thin). Paint should never pool - if it does, then you are using too much in one coat. Additionally, paint doesn't dry properly when its too thick, the top layer develops a skin that traps the moisture underneath. Paint should be applied in thin layers (plus you don't want to obscure the detail underneath). Additionally, the glossy finish is more fragile - I've found that even after its dried, it sometimes takes on fingerprints (due to the oils in your hands). I almost always paint with flat paints (better coverage) then apply a clear gloss coat if I want the final finish to be glossy (which is rare) I find that a semi-gloss to be more realistic for scale models (unless we are talking automobiles here).

4. For God sakes , don't apply the decals if you're not absolutely happy with the paint finish! Its one of the last things to do - you can always strip it down to redo the paint if you're not satisfied. I've done that a lot of times myself, and I consider painting one of my strong points.

Your initial post was a little extreme - if you're like that when your modelling, then I'd respectfully say calm down a little. Take it a bit more slowly next time, its not something you want to race through. Enjoy the model Zen... hmmm... If something is not working out, then take a break - think about it. Get some sleep, you don't know how many times when I think I'm screwed beyond salvage that after a good nights sleep, I come back to it the next day re-freshed and the solution seems so obvious. Don't push a bad situation, find a different way to tackle the problem. Post here with questions, there are so many talented modellers here - that's what I do. Slough through some of my build-up threads below (ignore the first few - start from the bottom of the list) to get an idea of the painting process (I know I airbrush most things) but the basic principles are the same. Good luck, don't get discouraged, and post some pictures! they're worth a thousand words!

Edited February 7, 2006 by wm cheng

[wm cheng]

Sorry - hit reply by accident... instead of edit.

Edited February 7, 2006 by wm cheng

[buglips]

I swear by Tamiya as well, even though I've pretty much switched entirely from plastic models to metal fantasy miniatures.

But when I was building plastic, nothing beat Tamiya except possibly for color selection. But then mixing always was the most fun part.

Yes, master cheng, Citadel is a miniature paint. That stuff is great, too. I still have usable bottles opened since 1989. A bit on the thick side compared to Tamiya, but it covers well and the colors resist fading, streaking, and mottling very well.

[promethuem5]

Thanks for the reply WM... that seems like alot of help. I didn't thin all of the coats, just the one that was a bit thick in the bottle. I realize my post was a bit, cranky, but trust me, that's not how I model at all

And yes, Citadel paints are amazing. The only problem I ahve with Citadel is the consistency of some of the paints... some of them have a waxyish finishm but usually they are fine.

I'll be stripping this model in the next few days and repainting it with materials I'm conforatable with.... and I definetaly won't be going back to that website for help.

And buglips, I can't imagine using these paints on miniatures... you must be crazy or something. I think some nice minis will be a good change of pace after this distasteful experience tho...

Edited February 7, 2006 by promethuem5

[big F]

I posted the same comment on a Gundam modeling forum, and the site owner (who's models are /clearly/ better than mine) posted back that I was obviosuly an idiot, locked my thread, and put me on some kind of 'posting probation.'  All I can say is "Well, there goes the fun in that hobby."

367638[/snapback]

What?!?

Edit: Unless it was because of some of the words in your post.

367641[/snapback]

Wow probably didnt like the fact you were using non Gundam paints. He probably gets a nice fat pay check from the Gundam manufactures.

Sounds remincent of me when I posted on the Micro$oft Xbox forum and used the words

"modded" and "Pirate" in the same post.

Citadel paints rock I used to paint leads back in the mid 80`s and all but one of my bottles was still a go`er last year when I looked at them.

They are great for tiny details and such. I actually bought some the other day to finnish off my 12 inch vinyl model of Kryten from Red Dwarf. Sorry you American types wont know what that is, google it and you`ll get the idea. I`ll post pics when his head is finnished.

Edited February 7, 2006 by big F

[armentage]

It could ahve been old paint too, DH, as I bought it from this dinky little store that I doubt sells out of the stuff often. 

367638[/snapback]

I've got, no exageration, 19 year old bottles of Tamiya paints that still go on fine. Either the paint is fine, or the bottle dried up completely is what I've found.

[David Hingtgen]

All depends---I have a bottle of Testor's metallic green I've used for a decade, same for brass. Then I can have bottles go bad in 6 months--it's all about that particular bottle's lid's seal IMHO.

[Greyryder]

This thread is making me glad I use Model Master Paints. Still need to find a good replacement for my old Testors acrylic gun metal, though.

Yeah, I've got some old bottles of Testors acryilcs that are still fine, after 10 years. (they still have Pactra labels on them) Some of them only need replaced, because I've used them all. By the same token, some of them have long since dried into a rubbery block in the bottle.

I will say, that I was not impressed the one time I used Tamiya paint. Maybe I'm just spoiled by not having to thin my Testors made stuff, to airbrush it.

[promethuem5]

Oh no you guys, someone herer's not gonna use Tamiya paitns now. That dick might come over here and lock this thread so I can't "Mislead people about an amazing modelling product" here either... and while I can understand all you guys who swear by the stuff, I have talked to quite a few people who realy hate the stuff and think it is utter garbage, so obviously it can go either way.

[Mallet21]

... and while I can understand all you guys who swear by the stuff, I have talked to quite a few people who realy hate the stuff and think it is utter garbage, so obviously it can go either way.

367936[/snapback]

Agreed. If you're gonna hand-paint your models then Tamiya is garbage. But for airbrushing, this stuff is the best.......imho

[buglips]

I had a large stockpile of Tamiya colours when I started painting miniatures again, so I used what was at hand. Generally once I get used to a product's quirks I'll stick with it rather than experiment with new things. I should also note that most of the miniatures I paint are designed to go straight from the bench into play and can get heavy use.

This, combined with the fact that I need to do vast numbers of them (something close to 300 in the last year) means that while the quality is good it's not like they're painted to contest standards. They also wind up with a nice seal of gloss for hardness, and the gloss tends to work very well with the Tamiya colours to blend them nicely.

So for this specific task, Tamiya is the best tool for the job for my needs.

Tamiya has some ups and some downs, just like any paint brand. I like to use it in combination with other acrylics and enamels, and have found it to work well for me.

However, I can totally relate to anyone having problems with a paint brand they're not familiar with. For a project some months back I bought some "Accu-paint". Never used it before, but it was the exact colour I needed.

It has interesting side effects with a Tamiya undercoat, I discovered. Not good ones, either. It ate through the model!

[David Hingtgen]

Woah, Accu-Paint? I know that stuff (being a model railroader). I bought 1 bottle and found it to be more like colored extra-thin cement than paint. WEIRD stuff.

[fulcy]

Hey promethuem5 - keep this thread on topic, and don't call other people from other forums 'a-holes' or 'dicks'

Edited February 8, 2006 by fulcy

[promethuem5]

Honestly man, unless you have anything to add to my original query about the paints, I really don't care. I had a pretty reasonable question at first, and someone was beginning to comment back having had similar problems when he came over and just locked away in an incredibly immature fashion. And now I've been banned because you went and tattled on me like a little girl for being frustrated and he is blamming me for somehting else that I have no idea about seeing as I haven't posted since he probated me...

[fulcy]

Your question, as you admit, was a newb question, and it was kinda ranting. It wasn't complete, and didn't give us all the information to solve your problem. As is stated in the posting guidelines, that forum is for mature modelers, not for newbs - and you could have easily found out most of your answers from other places or by searching google (or using the search function on that forum). If you had asked 'Am I using these paints correctly?' instead of assuming that you were using them correctly, and that it was the paint's fault for flaking off your model, your questions would have been answered, and you would still be a member over there. Don't blame me for what you did - you brought it on yourself...

[promethuem5]

Honestly, I don't even care at this point... I've been doing this kind of work for plenty of years now and am more than capable of having mature discussions about stuff, as can be seen from my conduct on plenty of other sites. FF obvisuly doesn't know where to draw the line between 'mature modelor' and 'flamming snob,' so I feel no real loss in being banned from an unhelpful site because I was blamed for something else I didn't do (and know nothing about.) I was working with a new medium that I was not well informed about and it did not go well. Obviously FF's site is not like any other, where the underlying question of "What did I do wrong here, can anyone help me?" would be understood, and apparently for me to have had a chance of getting any real help on his site I would have ahd to explicitly spell out that question... not that he'd been truly helpful on any question I ahd before then, alot of whcih were not dumbass newb questions... his idea of "help" is basically "read this article and shut up" and those articles were immensley useful, but somethimes it is essential to ahve a live person to tlak to about somethign new in order to learn it, and he obviosuly cannot grasp that concept.

Edited February 8, 2006 by promethuem5

[armentage]

Wow, talk about anger issues.

[David Hingtgen]

I'm tempted to mod at this point, but I'm still waiting for some sort of guidelines or even "training" at this point from either Graham or the full mods. I'm hesitant to act on any thread with newly-granted mini-mod status.

[fulcy]

I'm tempted to mod at this point, but I'm still waiting for some sort of guidelines or even "training" at this point from either Graham or the full mods.  I'm hesitant to act on any thread with newly-granted mini-mod status.

368195[/snapback]

Come on, do it, you know you want to!

[Sdf-1]

Wow, I can't believe that even a thread about paints can go this way...

[promethuem5]

How's about we just go back to the topic? I'll calm down and leave Fulcy alone and we can continue talking about weather or not Tamiya paints are good.

[buglips]

Woah, Accu-Paint?  I know that stuff (being a model railroader).  I bought 1 bottle and found it to be more like colored extra-thin cement than paint.  WEIRD stuff.

367995[/snapback]

Yeah, I was doing an N scale CN Gp-9. Normally when I use a red or an orange color I like to basecoat with some Taimya deck tan to make sure I get good red coverage without making it too bright by using a straight white.

That accu-paint stuff really is thin, mine was like water with a drop of food coloring in it.

On the plus side, the GP-9 was a cheap thing to lose...

I need to build a macross kit so I have something to show off here. All my modelling is totally off-topic.

[promethuem5]

Anyone here ever used Flo-quil? My uncle is sending me some, and I am curious if anyone here has used it.

And I think I'll be going back to metal minis very very soon.... tonight was a disasture.... I primed my the armor of my MG Acguy with grey Krylon, and it got all cracked and uneven, so I dunked it in some Simple Green to get the primer off, and it ate away the plastic that had primer on it... so now I ahve to clean up and fix the finsih on a bunch of parts. Anyone know what to use to smooth out the roughed up and deformed parts? It's gonna take something a bit stronger than sandpaper.

[David Hingtgen]

Flo-Quil? Yup. The standard for model railroaders, and also what was used to paint the original Star Trek Enterprise. (Kirk's ship has BN green accents, SP scarlet stripes, and UP yellow markings IIRC)

Anyways--it dries FAST, and it is MATTE. It is the dullest, flattest paint you'll ever see. Quite opaque. Has its own unique thinner known as Dio-Sol.

I like PollyScale myself for model trains---Testor's new MM acrylic is based on it (they bought PollyScale) but PollyScale is still superior. PollyScale is easily the best brush-painting acrylic IMHO. Haven't ever airbrushed it. (I buy all my trains pre-painted, but I extensively accurize them so I need to match railraod colors) Awesome color range--I see SO many plane/ship modelers search everywhere for certain colors that Tamiya or Testor's doesn't make, while totally ignoring the massive color selection of model railroad paints. Trains have been painted every color, and there's a zillion extra green/brown/grey shades for scenery and weathering.

Though PollyScale (like MM acrylic) does have a higher than average "bad bottle" rate where you open it up and you just know something's wrong with it--it like gets a "skin" on top. (Always open the bottle in the store and check)

Edited February 9, 2006 by David Hingtgen