Macross, Attack Of The Clones!

[JB0]

One of the issues I see with mass producing heavy equipment/vehicles for Reconstruction Blues is the logistical nightmare around them. Can you find enough skilled operators to run the machines? If you don't, how much resources do you put into training/training facilities/trainers. Then theres the problem of maintenance. These heavy vehicles, even with overtechnology, are gonna need oil changes, replacement parts, spare parts, etc. Although a 50 foot Zentraedi with a shovel might consume more food/water, he might also require less of a technical support structure behind him.

Possibly.

But food is going to be one of the scarcest resources around.

You can drill for oil.

You can mine for metal, or salvage it from crashed derelicts.

You can train operators.

But food has to be grown.

Another thing I considered is there might be a shortage of men or the women to men ratio might have been really skewed. The show , besides Millia, never shows any females in combat roles. It appears the Bridge Bunnies might not be an anomaly. Maybe most of SDF Macross' internal depts are run by women because all the men were sent off or being sent off to be cannon fodder. I'd be curious if procreation was not only encouraged as a patriotic duty, but polygamy as well.

That's somewhat traditional. Human society typically balks at the idea of putting women in combat positions.

I suspect polygamy wouldn't be encouraged, but wouldn't be so strongly discouraged either. Nor would children outside of marriage.

Its curious to consider how relaxed or strict the recruitment standards were on Macross when it was on the run. There was a finite city population to replace all the dead Valk/Destroid pilots and warm bodies are warm bodies. I think that would be a factor in what kind of cloning pool you'd get later on Post Rain Of Death.

They pointed out a few times in the TV series that recruitment and promotion requirements on the Macross seemed to consists mainly of being alive.

Watching Hikaru's team form shows that in action.

We know Max has bad vision. Traditionally, that's an automatic disqualification for fighter pilots.

Hikaru was of the opinion that both of them were somewhat new to be assigned to a combat team. Roy pointed out that they weren't much less experienced than Hikaru(Hikaru's civilian piloting experience shouldn't count as a mitigating factor for space combat). So Hikaru was promoted fast.

Though he DID get his promotion due to the rescue of Misa from the Mars Base reactor overload, he only got the rescue mission in the first place because he was still squeamish about killing.

Max was also promoted very rapidly, even though he was little more than a raw recruit, and both he and Hikaru felt it was too fast and that Max's subordinantes were way too inexperienced to be flying yet. I think at that point they explicitly stated that they were just stuffing people into planes as fast as possible.

And Millia got a fighter with minimal formal training and no consideration for her background. Though this was liklely a political move as much as anything else.

Max and Millia were hot stuff from a political standpoint, and Global was gonna make darn sure that if she wanted to fight alongside her husband she was going to get to, just as he made sure that every resource on the ship was spent making their wedding as big an event as possible. They weren't just a guy and a girl, they were 2 of the most accomplished warriors on each side's force and a symbol of human-zentradi peace.

As for that affecting the gene pool post-war... well, on the Macross' side of the populace, you had 40,000 civilians and 20,000 military people at the end. Of the 20k military heads, only a fraction were in the thick of things(there were a little over 300 VF-1s at the end of the war, and a little under 600 destroids). Most of them were bridge crew, technicians, engineers, shield operators, and miscellaneous support roles. These are scattered all over the ship. Bridge crew and personnel near the core would fare best.

The things that would most affect civilian survival aboard the Macross(they lost 18k of 'em), given the city's location near the ship's skin and in the middle of the transformation-affected region, would be distance from the exterior at attack start, proximity to a shelter at attack start, and the good sense to head for cover in a timely manner instead of wandering the streets.

That and volunteering for military service, which was probably one of the fastest ways to die(unless you were in the wrong place during a transformation).

So at best, there was breeding for precognition. Lacking evidence of psychic powers in the Macross universe, we'll call this as no genetic selection.

Worst is breeding for cowardice and submissiveness, as your best chance for survival is to not join the military, and do what the military says when they say to.

Surivival of the fittest would play an important role in the longetivity of either species. Meaning that since the Zentradi clones were bred with optimal genes and characteristics, the once multi-raced population would eventually become a mainly Zentradi population. Then the "majority rules" ideology would cause a power struggle in which the Zentradi would stop cloning the natural humans in an effort for total dominance. Natural humans that have inferior genes would eventually die out and Earth would become dominated by Zentradi.

Except UN Spacey, not the Zentradi, were in charge of the cloning program.

And the grunt zentradi aren't bred for long lifespans, and none are made for rapid reproduction.

I think the zentradi have a caste system, with diffrent "breeds" assigned diffrent roles. This limits the degree that any one person can rise in the ranks(though if you can snapshot the brain and reflash it, it could be possible that your next body would be in a higher caste than your currrent one).

The grunts are designed for killing.

Cannon-fodder zentradi genetics would favor agressiveness, reflexes, subservience, and short-term durability.

Long-term survival, independence, and intelligence would be more useful attributes for higher-ranking figures, as it increases the amount of experience a commander can have, as well as their strategic value. Excess agressiveness is just going to result in commanders jumping the gun and launching badly-planned assaults, and inbred subservience will result in excessive calls home for orders.

And once you get to the archivists, like Exedol, memory is their most valuable asset. They need to remember a lot, and be able to recall it instantly. Exedol also served as an advisor, so they need to speak up when they have something to say instead of waiting for their superior to ask.

Longevity would also be supremely useful here, as it increases experience.

This all assumes limited mental transplant capacity. If they can take a perfect snapshot of a zentradi brain at will, and implant it similarly well, longevity is utterly useless.

Retuning the genetic mix isn't worth considering, as there's no evidence the zentradi posess the technology to create new revisions, nor that humanity has generated it independently.

[Ginrai]

So Hikaru was promoted fast.

Though he DID get his promotion due to the rescue of Misa from the Mars Base reactor overload, he only got the rescue mission in the first place because he was still squeamish about killing.

365344[/snapback]

That's not true. He also had the top dog Valkyrie pilot and CAG as his mentor and best friend who got him all kinds of opportunities, including said rescue mission. I think it's safe to say that's why he started out in a VF-1J.

[big F]

If I remember in the episode that Hikaru Max, Kakizaki and Misa are captured by the Zentradi. After Bretai is pushed into space in the fight with Hikaru, one of the troops is concerned about the commanders well being. He comments about being stronger than the troops. With that in mind that would suggest the caste system and breeding sytem mentioned by JBO is in fact truth in the Macross world.

[SpacyAce2012]

Purely speculation, but I don't know how much weeding out you'd have to do in terms of less desirable genes.

Post Rain of Death, I'm sure it took the SDF Macross some time to set up logistically to help survivors. Natural selection probably took out a great deal of the elderly, those requiring daily medication of some type, those who couldn't travel, etc. Its unrealistic to think SDF Macross had the manpower or equipment to run search parties everywhere. I'm sure plenty of folks in wheelchairs with MS were just left behind. Folks who were retarded or had some kind of handicap were probably left to wander in the wasteland to die. I suspect cannibalism wiped out some of the physically weaker people. Many, good genes or not, probably died just trying to get to SDF Macross or somewhere else.

I'd think you'd have to classify human survivors into two categories. Those who were inside SDF Macross from the South Ataria Island and those who survived the Rain Of Death on Earth. I think you'd have a far greater chance of finding a survivor in a wheelchair or diabetic already inside Macross versus outsiders. The folks on the outside, I guess you'd have to consider most of those surivivors as physically hardy, although who knows what kind of mental health issues they have.

IIRC, the Robotech books (yes I know its not canon) said South America remained relatively intact post Rain of Death. I don't know if McKinney derived this from an original Macross source or not. If so, then would that mean future generations would likely have roots from there?

364269[/snapback]

The problem is that there were, for all intents and purposes, no survivors left on Earth after the end of Space War One. According to Egan Loo's translations of the original timeline, only a few were found in the Grand Cannon I complex. Plus some of the partially constructed Grand Cannon facilities had survivors. The Animego release of the T.V. show does mention that a few civilians were found among the ruins. Despite some questions of the accuracy of Animego's translations of the script, I don't consider this outside the realm of possibility. But they would be in the tiny minority, judging by the devastation inflicted by the Bodol Fleet.

A large portion of the Human survivors were on the Macross. That's not counting the survivors in the orbital facilities and the personnel on the U.N. Apollo Lunar Base. I believe that the bulk of the Human survivors of the war were off-world.

This made a friend of mine who isn't a Macross fan, but watched the original series and Macross Plus out of curiosity wonder how Earth's civilisation recovered so fast by 2040. The level of colonisation and repopulation just wasn't realistic from his point of view. Even with the mass cloning program. You need a large amount of talent and skills to pull off such a grand scheme. Something that takes a long time to reacquire after such a cataclysm. You have to train people for that sort of thing and experience in the various fields counts greatly. The Zentraedi weren't a very good source of expertise and the remaining Human population wouldn't have the entire cross-section of skills and education needed either. So, I can see his point.

The appearence of forest and wildlife at the end of the original series seems to be the result of some sort habitat reclamation project. Evidence suggests that Gorg Bodolza(sp?) razed the planet completely. And the fact that the timeline mentions the widespread cloning of plants and animals lend credience to this. Also, look at the landscape around Macross City in Macross Plus. Considering that Alaska is sparsly populated, such devastation of that region wouldn't seem logical. But it happened. Bodolza wanted to be good and damned sure he nailed everyone, so he glassed the planet. Therfore, I don't think much in the way of natural habitat on the land masses survived.

I don't know if 500,000 - one million people would make a large enough gene pool for such fast growth without some mixing of Zentreadi genetic material in a mass cloning program and a healthy amount of assistance from Protoculture biotech methods (in which they apparently did), which would take a great deal of research to decipher. Pre-war Earth-based genetic sciences, while advanced, was still limited in comparison. And with this in consideration, I would think that the cloning program would have started out slow due to a lot of false starts. The only way it could have worked as well as it did, in such a short period of time, was to do it using the exact same methods as was used with the Zentreadi. Churn out clones, with slight variations, using machines and techniques barely understood by Earth science.

Edited February 2, 2006 by SpacyAce2012

[Keith]

There's no reason to believe that cloning in Macross means that they're making 1/1 exact clones. Considering the Protoculture's technology, and the longevity of the Zentradi, it's more likely that cloning is more directly akin to test tube babies. Artificially created, but not exact copies. In that way, they could easily cook up a huge populace without having to worry about the gene pool, as the very process would include mixing up the DNA.

[Skull Leader]

Purely speculation, but I don't know how much weeding out you'd have to do in terms of less desirable genes.

Post Rain of Death, I'm sure it took the SDF Macross some time to set up logistically to help survivors. Natural selection probably took out a great deal of the elderly, those requiring daily medication of some type, those who couldn't travel, etc. Its unrealistic to think SDF Macross had the manpower or equipment to run search parties everywhere. I'm sure plenty of folks in wheelchairs with MS were just left behind. Folks who were retarded or had some kind of handicap were probably left to wander in the wasteland to die. I suspect cannibalism wiped out some of the physically weaker people. Many, good genes or not, probably died just trying to get to SDF Macross or somewhere else.

I'd think you'd have to classify human survivors into two categories. Those who were inside SDF Macross from the South Ataria Island and those who survived the Rain Of Death on Earth. I think you'd have a far greater chance of finding a survivor in a wheelchair or diabetic already inside Macross versus outsiders. The folks on the outside, I guess you'd have to consider most of those surivivors as physically hardy, although who knows what kind of mental health issues they have.

IIRC, the Robotech books (yes I know its not canon) said South America remained relatively intact post Rain of Death. I don't know if McKinney derived this from an original Macross source or not. If so, then would that mean future generations would likely have roots from there?

364269[/snapback]

The problem is that there were, for all intents and purposes, no survivors left on Earth after the end of Space War One. According to Egan Loo's translations of the original timeline, only a few were found in the Grand Cannon I complex. Plus some of the partially constructed Grand Cannon facilities had survivors. The Animego release of the T.V. show does mention that a few civilians were found among the ruins. Despite some questions of the accuracy of Animego's translations of the script, I don't consider this outside the realm of possibility. But they would be in the tiny minority, judging by the devastation inflicted by the Bodol Fleet.

A large portion of the Human survivors were on the Macross. That's not counting the survivors in the orbital facilities and the personnel on the U.N. Apollo Lunar Base. I believe that the bulk of the Human survivors of the war were off-world.

This made a friend of mine who isn't a Macross fan, but watched the original series and Macross Plus out of curiosity wonder how Earth's civilisation recovered so fast by 2040. The level of colonisation and repopulation just wasn't realistic from his point of view. Even with the mass cloning program. You need a large amount of talent and skills to pull off such a grand scheme. Something that takes a long time to reacquire after such a cataclysm. You have to train people for that sort of thing and experience in the various fields counts greatly. The Zentraedi weren't a very good source of expertise and the remaining Human population wouldn't have the entire cross-section of skills and education needed either. So, I can see his point.

The appearence of forest and wildlife at the end of the original series seems to be the result of some sort habitat reclamation project. Evidence suggests that Gorg Bodolza(sp?) razed the planet completely. And the fact that the timeline mentions the widespread cloning of plants and animals lend credience to this. Also, look at the landscape around Macross City in Macross Plus. Considering that Alaska is sparsly populated, such devastation of that region wouldn't seem logical. But it happened. Bodolza wanted to be good and damned sure he nailed everyone, so he glassed the planet. Therfore, I don't think much in the way of natural habitat on the land masses survived.

I don't know if 500,000 - one million people would make a large enough gene pool for such fast growth without some mixing of Zentreadi genetic material in a mass cloning program and a healthy amount of assistance from Protoculture biotech methods (in which they apparently did), which would take a great deal of research to decipher. Pre-war Earth-based genetic sciences, while advanced, was still limited in comparison. And with this in consideration, I would think that the cloning program would have started out slow due to a lot of false starts. The only way it could have worked as well as it did, in such a short period of time, was to do it using the exact same methods as was used with the Zentreadi. Churn out clones, with slight variations, using machines and techniques barely understood by Earth science.

365562[/snapback]

I think this is part of the reason why you never hear an EXACT count on just how many survivors there were after the orbital bombardment. There *had* to be more survivors than they really talk about (figure a few hundred thousand in most major population centers, considerably less-to-none in smaller places). I think it was intentionally left vague and open-ended for the (then) possibility of future sequels to address.

[Agent ONE]

Thank you, though to be honest, I thought it was made so you could download pictures of muscles.

364729[/snapback]

LOL, you DO know that the picture in my avatar is ME right!?

[Skull Leader]

Thank you, though to be honest, I thought it was made so you could download pictures of muscles.

364729[/snapback]

LOL, you DO know that the picture in my avatar is ME right!?

366302[/snapback]

No, he's just in the third stage: Denial.

"No... those aren't agent one's muscles..."

[Keith]

The bigger question is do I care if the picture in your avatar is you..

[Agent ONE]

The bigger question is do I care if the picture in your avatar is you..

366677[/snapback]

If I ever find you in a dark alley, you ARE going to care.

[Hurin]

I think this is part of the reason why you never hear an EXACT count on just how many survivors there were after the orbital bombardment. There *had* to be more survivors than they really talk about (figure a few hundred thousand in most major population centers, considerably less-to-none in smaller places). I think it was intentionally left vague and open-ended for the (then) possibility of future sequels to address.

366210[/snapback]

Well, taking the translation at face value (I have not idea if it's accurate), "The Lost Two Years" (check out this thread) states that anyone not "living underground" was killed. It also states "over 99%" of the earth's population was killed. And there were 40,000 people on the Macross at the end of the war.

At mid-year 2002, the US government estimates that there were 6.2 billion people on the planet. Though, perhaps there was less in the the Macross timeline since the Unification Wars might have involved a lot of civilian casualties. But, working with 6.2 billion as the base, the most conservative estimate (.009 -- or less than 1%-- of 6.2 billion) is 55 million survivors. But, that's probably very high. And just doesn't sound right to me.

I always thought it was more like 1 million. 50 million is 1/6 the current population of the US!

I wonder if that 99% is supposed to be interpreted as 99.9%. . . otherwise, why mention the 40,000 on the Macross as a signifigant number?

H

[JB0]

The bigger question is do I care if the picture in your avatar is you..

366677[/snapback]

If I ever find you in a dark alley, you ARE going to care.

366764[/snapback]

And lo, did A1 announce his intention to rape Keith in a raw display of unrestrained homosexuality.

[Agent ONE]

The bigger question is do I care if the picture in your avatar is you..

366677[/snapback]

If I ever find you in a dark alley, you ARE going to care.

366764[/snapback]

And lo, did A1 announce his intention to rape Keith in a raw display of unrestrained homosexuality.

366777[/snapback]

Hey, don't sell your self short, I am gonna rape you too. But as both you and Keith are girls, this doesn't make me gay.

[SpacyAce2012]

I think this is part of the reason why you never hear an EXACT count on just how many survivors there were after the orbital bombardment. There *had* to be more survivors than they really talk about (figure a few hundred thousand in most major population centers, considerably less-to-none in smaller places). I think it was intentionally left vague and open-ended for the (then) possibility of future sequels to address.

366210[/snapback]

Well, taking the translation at face value (I have not idea if it's accurate), "The Lost Two Years" (check out this thread) states that anyone not "living underground" was killed. It also states "over 99%" of the earth's population was killed. And there were 40,000 people on the Macross at the end of the war.

At mid-year 2002, the US government estimates that there were 6.2 billion people on the planet. Though, perhaps there was less in the the Macross timeline since the Unification Wars might have involved a lot of civilian casualties. But, working with 6.2 billion as the base, the most conservative estimate (.009 -- or less than 1%-- of 6.2 billion) is 55 million survivors. But, that's probably very high. And just doesn't sound right to me.

I always thought it was more like 1 million. 50 million is 1/6 the current population of the US!

I wonder if that 99% is supposed to be interpreted as 99.9%. . . otherwise, why mention the 40,000 on the Macross as a signifigant number?

H

366772[/snapback]

The numbers in the zip files you posted jibe with the timeline. But I agree that 40,000,plus any surviving military personnel, would be a drop in the bucket. The 500,000(to one million, although this may have been retconned) does make more sense. And as I pointed out, most survivors seem to have been in space/lunar base facilities. Although, it seems, that the "space colony clusters(bunches)" may also have been retconned. I also agree that fifty plus million survivors on-world sounds way too high.

The numbers for the Zentraedi survivors would solve the gene pool problem as far as the "cloning" program for Humans goes. I always thought fewer Zentraedi survived than eight million, but I was wrong.

I agree that casualties during the U.N. Wars were possibly high, probably in the several million mark. I base this on the fact that the wars seem to have broken out all over the globe, even in areas that hadn't seen conflict in decades. Judging by the images of troops in NBC gear in the original series and Zero, I would guess chemical and bio weaponry saw heavy use. We do know that nukes were used in at least one incident. Other factors would include the deaths resulting from wide-spread civil disturbances and the massive deaths resulting from The Fall.

I wouldn't be suprised if the total death toll from 1999-2008 was in the nine digit mark. Still, with a 6.2 Billion population figure, that's not a lot. My math sucks, but I agree that an estimate of 99.8- 99.9% would fit the canon figures a lot closer than one percent.

Edited February 4, 2006 by SpacyAce2012

[JB0]

The bigger question is do I care if the picture in your avatar is you..

366677[/snapback]

If I ever find you in a dark alley, you ARE going to care.

366764[/snapback]

And lo, did A1 announce his intention to rape Keith in a raw display of unrestrained homosexuality.

366777[/snapback]

Hey, don't sell your self short, I am gonna rape you too. But as both you and Keith are girls, this doesn't make me gay.

366778[/snapback]

I thought I was a guy...

*checks*

Yup, all the bits are still there.

[Agent ONE]

The bigger question is do I care if the picture in your avatar is you..

366677[/snapback]

If I ever find you in a dark alley, you ARE going to care.

366764[/snapback]

And lo, did A1 announce his intention to rape Keith in a raw display of unrestrained homosexuality.

366777[/snapback]

Hey, don't sell your self short, I am gonna rape you too. But as both you and Keith are girls, this doesn't make me gay.

366778[/snapback]

I thought I was a guy...

*checks*

Yup, all the bits are still there.

366800[/snapback]

You like M7, which means you don't even really know the difference.

[bsu legato]

You know, this actually started off as a good topic. It was a nice change of pace for this section.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I think there might have been underground cities that kawamori didn't tell us about. Maybe something like in space battleship yamato but only for the men who had the connections and power.

Millions of elite humans were frozen as part of a secret project to reseed the world with thier "superior" bloodline after the coming invasion of the aliens which the earlier ancestors had made a pact with and promised to give them ownership and control of earth in exchange with melding thier alien DNA within thier bloodline of humans.

This explains the differences in opinion of the rival factions in the PC (some trying to save earth while others wanting earth destroyed. Procacha wanted to wipe us out, while the opposing PC faction who had made the secret pact with humans wanted us to survive and so sabotaged thier efforts to destroy us) and why earth was chosen as the new beginning to start over. The prophets within PC saw the end was near for thier civilisation and thought to peacefully co-exist with weaker species (human) who would pose no threat since they had no technology. The only problem was the secret of the islanders was discovered in Mac 0 and a huge investigation into man's origins was established to find out the truth. Thus the true reason for going into space to inherit whatever superior technology the PC had and give it to the elite who had been living in the underground cities for centuries plotting to control earth since ancient times.

These plotters knew they would one day inherit the knowledge from the heavens and create a kingdom in space for themselves one day, and bided thier time waiting for the PC to finally collapse from within before making thier move. Technology was kept away from the eyes of normal non-hybrid alien humans, and used to reseed earth with thier DNA to evolve our species to be more like themselves. Basara was probably one of these which explains his powers that no one else has. Similar to those two girls in macross Zero the power lies dormant within themselves but only a select few have true powers based on thier genetics. Most who are pure humans, probably have very little spiritua powers, while those who are closer to alien, seem to exhibit stronger powers.

I predict once un spacy gets the secret technology from the PC (like that tiny AFOS which can shoot massive death beams) and makes the most advanced weapons, they wil then create a galactic empire similar to star wars where they will then use that power to crush all other peaceful and weaker alien species and force them into slavery. But only the highest level know this plan.

It's so obvious now why basara is the only one with anima spiritua and can control the protodevlin so easily while others can't. He might be the equivalent to aerith from final fantasy 7 and descendant of part of the branch of humans in ancient times who chose to interbreed with PC in thier "atlantean" times. (ie the underground city we saw in DYRL)

Edited February 5, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[JB0]

I think there might have been underground cities that kawamori didn't tell us about. Maybe something like in space battleship yamato but only for the men who had the connections and power.

Compendium says they were in the incomplete Grand Cannons.

Presumably they were pushed into use as shelters for nearby people when the zentradi fleet defolded.

As they weren't complete, they didn't fire, and didn't suffer the same fate as the completed Alaskan cannon.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

But I mean ones that even the people who built the cannons didn't know about.

They helped start the unification wars as a way to control the conflict on both sides in secret while reaping the profits from all the deaths.

Remember they want to control the world from behind the scenes and kill off as many people as possible, having foretold the exact time when the SDF1/ASS1 would hit earth or be "allowed to escape" the clutches of thier enemies, by information handed to them by thier alien informants. ie the faction of the pc that wants earth as thier new home until the PC are all wiped out by the protodevlin. It was never an "accident" they escaped from thier dimension to mind control the EVIL series. The experiment was designed to unleash them from thier hell until such time as they could then use people like basara as a leash to control the damage the out-of-control PD can do after thier work had been done wiping out the PC. Once the PD had been sealed they can begin thier new plan to control the galaxy with the building of thier galactic empire again. Something that would take several generations to accomplish.

One problem poses itself: Basara didn't seal the devils as they had planned and instead helped them become good guys. It matters little to them though since he saved the galaxy from destruction and allows them to continue thier secret plan for the galactic dictatorship.

Ok it's my little piece of fan fiction but it helps the story make sense for me.

Edited February 5, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[SpacyAce2012]

The origins of the Illuminati exposed! They were really a secret cult of the Protocultures!

[Keith]

You like M7, which means you don't even areally know the difference.

366830[/snapback]

If I was afraid of oily muscles, & thought you were even remotely big enough to penetrate I might be slightly intimidated by your sexual advances, but who am I to take away another mans fantasies.

I think what you're really trying to say here though, is that you don't like Macross 7 because you're sexually aroused by Basara, and that's something for you to work out.

[Nied]

Time to pull out this old chestnut. here's the screenshot from Admiral Hayes' display in the Grand Cannon showing the areas bombarded by the Zentradi. The Grand Cannon was fired right after this and the battle with the Macross' fleet started up there wouldn't have been much time for the Bodol fleet to do follow up bombardments. It's possible that the further battles with the remnants of the Bodol fleet further ravaged the planet, nut it's likely that the final damage was largely similar to what's seen on this map.

As you can see Eurasia and Africa were the hardest hit, this includes both major population centers in India and China (which account for a sizeable portion of the Earth's population) but also sparsely populated areas like Siberia. Interestingly it apears that Japan was completely obliterated. Africa takes a pretty good hit especially in the west while the central protions and the middle East apear to have fared reletively better. Australia takes a pasting with almost half of the continent bloted out of existance. Much of the central portion of South america was blasted, but there is still enogh areas left that the rainforests seen in the reconstruction episodes could plausibly have survived. Whoever was in charge of North Americas bombardment seems to have been much more methodical, most of the heavily populated areas apear to have been struck first, leaving a good chunk of the American breadbasket, and the Yukon unscathed.

[JsARCLIGHT]

To A1 and "friends", let's take the banter outside. I got a few complaints about you guys in this thread in my in box when I rolled in this morning. Nothing makes me grumpy like complaints in my coffee. I'm an easy enough going guy so I'm just showing my face to say "thin ice, guys". This topic has merit so I don't want to trash it just yet so everyone behave and try to keep it on the discussion about the clones and the macross and stuff please... and in the words of your mothers "Don't make me come back in here".

[Peter Weller] Thank you for your cooperation [/Peter Weller]

[SpacyAce2012]

I think there might have been underground cities that kawamori didn't tell us about. Maybe something like in space battleship yamato but only for the men who had the connections and power.

Well, there must have been some version of NORAD in the Macross Universe on Earth. I doubt the Grand Cannon and the unfinished Cannons were the only hardened facilities on the planet.

That being said, the Zentraedi fleet used energy weapons on Earth. I guess theres the question of how deep you had to be holed up to survive the Rain of Death. And even if you survived, the amount of dirt and debris kicked around, maybe you'd be caved in. Also whether the fire was random or aimed only at areas that were clearly population centers.

University labs? Some of those can be pretty deep and structurally designed for internal explosions (i.e. a chemistry building)

Research facilities? Nuclear submarine crews? Employees at the various Federal Reserves/Treasury? If the focus of the assault was on major land masses, maybe some island populations made it out?

366902[/snapback]

There was a U.N. equalivalent to NORAD. The Alaska defence H.Q. And they had set up shop right smack dab in the vicinity of the Grand Cannon I complex.

Nuclear sub crews,maybe. Unless the skippers of the "boomers" recieved coded orders to let the "birds" fly toward any Zentraedi targets parked in low orbit. "Overtechnology"-based targeting systems, I would imagine, would have no trouble picking up those SSBNs after the fact. But attack subs would have a chance, since there was nothing for them to shoot at and they laid low during the assault.