Macross, Attack Of The Clones!

[Cabbit Commando]

OK, I figure this is going to lead to rampant speculation & thus doesn't belong in the Newbie question area where it can influance young skulls full of mush.

So the Earth engaged in extensive cloning after SW1, how were the clones programmed? I doubt they used the default Zentradi programming.

They probably made up their own.

I would think that they popped the clones out as adults. Creating a ton of kid clones would caue more problems than it would be worth.

As to looks, I don't picture the Zentradi overtech cloning as producing identical clones. It probably takes the genetic material & spind the wheel of genes to put together a new person. Yes there may be groups of people that look similar, sort of like how the people in some regions of the US & Europe that don't travel alot tend to start having similar features.

How well do the Clones adjust? I guess pretty well dince the only problem appears to be the resurgence of hereditary diseases later on. It must be wierd to have had know family life and such. Were they treated like Zentradi & had to slowly taught how to behave in human culture?

It would make sense that the colony fllets would have "Regular" people onboard to act as examples of Human culture.

I have blabbed encoherently enuff. What do you think?

[bsu legato]

We had some discussion about this wayyyyy back on the old boards, but alas they're long gone. I think the consensus was that, to be a fully adjusted human, the clones would have to go through something approaching a regular childhood, or at least the closest thing to it in post-Space War 1 Earth. This led to the possibility of massive day care facilities, or perhaps adopt-a-clone programs for the surviving adults.

[JB0]

We had some discussion about this wayyyyy back on the old boards, but alas they're long gone. I think the consensus was that, to be a fully adjusted human, the clones would have to go through something approaching a regular childhood, or at least the closest thing to it in post-Space War 1 Earth. This led to the possibility of massive day care facilities, or perhaps adopt-a-clone programs for the surviving adults.

364042[/snapback]

That's what I'd assume, too.

And they'd probably limit the influx of clones to preserve resources. Just because they had the facilities to pop out x poeple a month doesn't mean that the minimal society they had post-war was capable of supporting that rate of growth.

The adopt-a-clone program is the most feasable from my point of view. With the actual workings of the program designed to encourage adoption by infertile couples.

A fertile couple adopting a clone is reducing the number of natural children they can have, so it would logically be discouraged.

Now that we've discussed that...

How do they decide who gets cloned and who doesn't?

The most logical solution would be to require everyone to submit a DNA sample, to maximize genetic diversity. Less opressively, you could tie them to certain "perks" such as driver's licenses.

It could be a vonluntary donation, with heavy advertizing to persuade people to donate, possibly even a reward of some sort.

"Join the Terrestrial Repopulation Program! Recieve 500 dollars every time you're born! Act now and you'll also get FREE exclusive backstage passes to the next Lynn Minmay concert!"

...

But once the genes are in the bank, you could also make an argument for "weighting" certain samples. If you have inheritable diseases, your sample gets pulled less often than a healthier one would, or thrown out entirely, while a superior sample could get pulled more often. End result would be a gene pool weighted towards faster, stronger, people that are better suited to survive the harsh conditions of post-war Earth and the rigors of colonization on a marginal planet, as well as better able to repulse attacks from alien races such as the zentradi.

And then there's the political angle. Do heroes get special treatment, and in which direction?

Are there hundreds of thousands of Hikarus running around because he was deemed a superior specimen? Or(assuming mandatory registration) was he exempted from the program due to his distinguished service, thereby preserving his uniqueness unless he chose to submit a sample voluntarily?

[robokochan]

That is scary. Just think if the fanboys got ahold of Minmay&s DNA and started churing out Minmay Clones.

"Make your fantasy a Reality! You to can now spend those tender moment with your own MINMAY. Disclaimer: We will not take responsibility if your Minmay clone leaves chasing after war-hero Hikaru."

Just Scary!

[Knight26]

More then likely the reused a variation on the zent's cloning system providing an influx of human DNA. The clones would not be true clones, more like the invetros from SAAB, with those coming out of certain batches being similar but not identical. This would allow for the creation of stronger people and would also better encourage diversity. If you make too many of the same person there is too great a danger that their children, or grandchildren might intermarry, limiting the gene pool. Whereas if you basically just mix up all the genetic material and churn out numbers of unique individuals you encourage diversity much more readily.

[big F]

That is scary.  Just think if the fanboys got ahold of Minmay&s DNA and started churing out Minmay Clones. 

"Make your fantasy a Reality!  You to can now spend those tender moment with your own MINMAY.  Disclaimer:  We will not take responsibility if your Minmay clone leaves chasing after war-hero Hikaru."

Just Scary!

364125[/snapback]

Very scary.

One method could be only have say 6 editions of one clone before you resequence the dna by crossing it with other dna samples. Therefore youd have a bit more genetic diversity when it comes to actual proper breeding.

Also a policy of not putting Identical clones in the same geographic location. It would be one way of avoiding the "didnt I just see you at the Mall ??

[JB0]

More then likely the reused a variation on the zent's cloning system providing an influx of human DNA.  The clones would not be true clones, more like the invetros from SAAB, with those coming out of certain batches being similar but not identical.  This would allow for the creation of stronger people and would also better encourage diversity.  If you make too many of the same person there is too great a danger that their children, or grandchildren might intermarry, limiting the gene pool.  Whereas if you basically just mix up all the genetic material and churn out numbers of unique individuals you encourage diversity much more readily.

364138[/snapback]

The resequencing makes sense, but it's not likely given that the mass cloning program was discontinued in December 2030 as a cause of hereditary disease rise.

http://macross.anime.net/story/chronology/2013/index.html

I doubt the zentradi had resequencing technology. Since they didn't reproduce sexually, there was no concern about inbreeding. Besides, they probably had the "bad" genes removed from their samples anyways. Warriors don't need a hemophilia gene, even if it IS inactive.

[Skull Leader]

I imagine surviving families were encouraged to have large families of their own also, as to aid in genetic diversity. Probably some sort of government incentive plans for those who have X amount of children or so...

[DeathHammer]

Please Delete Thanks

Edited February 9, 2010 by DeathHammer

[JB0]

I imagine surviving families were encouraged to have large families of their own also, as to aid in genetic diversity. Probably some sort of government incentive plans for those who have X amount of children or so...

364219[/snapback]

Undoubtedly.

Tax breaks for large families, at the very least. Hell, the government likely would foot the entire child-rearing bill, just because.

There was undoubtedly also a huge propaganda campaign to persuade everyone that they needed younguns, and lots of 'em.

Max and Millia were just doing their patriotic duty.

[Keith]

I don't think day care or educatioanl centers would have been necessary at all. Since by all indications, most Zentradi were popped out in their mid-late teens ready to fight, all they'd have to really do is replace that battle information, with basic societal information, and let them go about their merry way.

[Morpheus]

And then Breetai executes Order 66, and all the clones start to macronize themselves and thus begin the great micron purging........

Macross, Revenge of the Zentraedi

[Gui]

I suspect cannibalism wiped out some of the physically weaker people.

364269[/snapback]

I expected this since the moment I saw you posted in this thread...

[bsu legato]

I don't think day care or educatioanl centers would have been necessary at all. Since by all indications, most Zentradi were popped out in their mid-late teens ready to fight, all they'd have to really do is replace that battle information, with basic societal information, and let them go about their merry way.

364346[/snapback]

That raises an ethics question, however. Humanity was accepting of the Zentraedi for who they were, but it would be another matter altogether to create a new breed of preprogrammed adults of their own. Even if they could program all the nuances of societal interaction into these "tween" clones, would they want to?

[Agent ONE]

I don't think day care or educatioanl centers would have been necessary at all. Since by all indications, most Zentradi were popped out in their mid-late teens ready to fight, all they'd have to really do is replace that battle information, with basic societal information, and let them go about their merry way.

364346[/snapback]

So Keith, in Candyland, who at city hall is in charge of inviting the teletubies to their speaking engagements?

[Agent ONE]

I suspect cannibalism wiped out some of the physically weaker people.

364269[/snapback]

I expected this since the moment I saw you posted in this thread...

364410[/snapback]

If only the fuzz would look the other way while I eat the liberals.

[Keith]

I don't think day care or educatioanl centers would have been necessary at all. Since by all indications, most Zentradi were popped out in their mid-late teens ready to fight, all they'd have to really do is replace that battle information, with basic societal information, and let them go about their merry way.

364346[/snapback]

So Keith, in Candyland, who at city hall is in charge of inviting the teletubies to their speaking engagements?

364439[/snapback]

Your doorknob.

[Agent ONE]

I don't think day care or educatioanl centers would have been necessary at all. Since by all indications, most Zentradi were popped out in their mid-late teens ready to fight, all they'd have to really do is replace that battle information, with basic societal information, and let them go about their merry way.

364346[/snapback]

So Keith, in Candyland, who at city hall is in charge of inviting the teletubies to their speaking engagements?

364439[/snapback]

Your doorknob.

364445[/snapback]

You need to hire someone to write your posts for you. Seriously, your comebacks are just shamefull.

[DeathHammer]

Please Delete Thanks

Edited February 9, 2010 by DeathHammer

[Mr March]

Interesting topic. Something I have yet to consider in Macross.

I can't see the UN and the survivors of Earth indulging in Zentradi-style cloning, especially given all they know of the Zentradi's pyschological immaturity and the danger of pre-programming thinking sentients. Not only would this lead to serious complications with cloned humans, one has no idea how the clones would react given the circumstances. The humans could be faced with another war which would turn against the natural humans. Considering the fact in the Macross universe this is the first time humans will be using cloning on a massive scale, natural human tendancies of fear and discrimination against different humans (clones being just the most recent in human history) would make for some potential social/political disasters. Most likely humans-style cloning would involve newborns and infants so they could be raised in a more natural fashion leading to better adjusted adults.

More than likely, the UN/remaining human population would adopt an aggressive re-population mentality and some new laws. Much like China has population control policies, the UN would probably require mandatory procreation, at least for the first generation. This would obviously include natural born humans, but would also likely expand, encouraging/forcing single adults without children to adopt a clone or adopt abandoned children who survived the war. Sterile couples incapable of reproducing or gay male couples would also have to be encouraged/forced to adopt children. Not even the elderly would be exempt. In such a time of crisis for a civilization, it would be necessary to have every able-bodied adult raising at least one child, preferrably more.

Also, it would be in the best interests of the UN to clone from as many different humans as possible, even Zentradi too. Genetic diversity would be a very high priority, to ensure that the human gene pool remains healthy and viable. This in turn would require new laws put in place by the UN. It would most likely be illegal for clones to reproduce among their own kind for at least one or two generations. Also, it would be illegal for a natural human to reproduce with clones created from immediate family relatives. Think of the potential danger for genetic inbreeding without laws and more importantly, strictly kept records. A natural human could become involved with a clone of his/her mother or father. Given the change in appearance due to age, it would be very possible a natural human would not recognize much younger versions of his own parents. Especially within the context of the depopulation crisis, the age of consent would undoubtedly be lowered to increase the population that much more quickly.

Some many things to consider, this is probably going a bit farther than you expected. Regardless, those are my thoughts and I hope they get you thinking.

Edited January 26, 2006 by Mr March

[Cabbit Commando]

Thanks for all the responses.

Actually in the Flavor text & Macross compendium Time line, They did clone animals. So, how many animals survived the ROF? Did they raid the pantry & start cloning the lunch meat & Salad?

Looking at the time line, there were only about 1 million human survivors & many more Zentradi. While I agree that the best way for the clones to be intergrated into society would be to pop 'em out young & raise as normal, The number of colony fleets that were sent out means that manpower would be stretched to the limits.

The Zentradi would HAVE to be more intigrated into society that what is usually thought. It could be that Quamjin's crew of party animals may have just given Zentradi a bad name.

I know that at least one colony fleet was made up of mostly Zentradi.

Obviously whatever they did worked. And it it's not like The Hoary Froating Head is going to stumble across my question & suddenly rethink his entire timeline

Hmmmm, One wonders if Max & Millia (Mil F Jenius ) having all those kids was the societal norm at that point or just a side effect of them immitating bunnies during the honeymoon. Or maybe even Millia going wow I can create life! Who knows... but rampant speculation is fun. heh heh.

Ack! back to work.

[JB0]

Post Rain of Death, I think there would also be the knotty problem of whether to clone full sized Zentraedi as well.

Giant 50 foot guys probably consume a ton of resources to survive, however the amount of labor they could do compared to human survivors would be incredible. There was the scene where Bretai is walking out in the vacuum of space, so its possible full sized Zentraedi could go out and do heavy labor in some pretty crappy post ROD conditions on Earth that would kill most humans.

But a modified Spartan or battroid could fill most of those requirements without eating more food than a 5-6 foot human.

You never see it, but the odds are VERY good that construction mecha were around, particularly as full-size sentradi were considered a threat to society(an issue brought to the front in one of the reconstruction episodes(Can't recall the name. 'S the one where Hikaru's sent to take military posession of a micloning chamber, and Kaifun starts a riot. Then Kamjin steals the miclone chamber and kidnaps the Lynns.).

If SDF Macross lacked the ability to produce heavy machinery needed to redevelop Earth, I would think they would be dependent on Zentraedi heavy labor.

If the SDF lacked the ability to produce heavy machinery, they never would've made it home. They were churning VF-1s, destroids(including custom-designed variants), and accessories as fast as they were being destroyed.

They also couldn't have rebuilt Macross City without the ability to create construction equipment.

Remember, the Macross' original mission was one of exploration. Sure it was packing some heavy artillery, and planned to carry much more, but under no circumstances was the crew to initiate hostilities with an alien race.

It had to be self-sustaining, which included the ability to manufacture equipment, grow food, purify air and water, etc.

While it wasn't planned, the inclusion of a city into the SDF-1 was actually a good idea, as there was more than enough space in the ship and it provided the crew with R&R facilities that would be quite valuable on a space exploration mission.

On the downside, since it wasn't planned, the ship wasn't properly equipped to support the massive addition to the population, and supplies were being used up faster than they were produced(hence resupplies both at Mars and when they reached Earth).

And if cloning is a simple technique for Zentraedi technology, then it would probably be practical to clone livestock or surviving animals for food.

Indeed. Plant and animal cloning is actually mentioned in the compendium, too.

This would be both for food and ecosystem restoration.

You'd probably want to focus on smaller animals, though. Post-war, the raising of large herbivores like cows and sheep would be discouraged while the flora recovered.

The initial strike was likely focused on civilized areas, so the oceans would be spared signifigant damage. Aquatic life was likely minimally impacted by the orbital bombardment.

In conclusion... cloning or not, I hope you like fish, because it's gonna be really hard to get a hamburger for a while.

[JB0]

Thanks for all the responses.

Actually in the Flavor text & Macross compendium Time line, They did clone animals.  So, how many animals survived the ROF? Did they raid the pantry & start cloning the lunch meat & Salad?

There's a thread somewhere with analysis of the strategy map in the Grand Cannon. The conclusion is that while major population centers were largely blasted out of existence, the Earth as a whole fared somewhat better than is seen in the charbroiled terrain surrounding selected cities.

One of Kamjin's vessels, notably, is imbedded in what looks to be part of a forest. So there's at least isolated patches of raw nature out there.

Looking at the time line, there were only about 1 million human survivors & many more Zentradi.  While I agree that the best way for the clones to be intergrated into society would be to pop 'em out young & raise as normal, The number of colony fleets that were sent out means that manpower would be stretched to the limits.

The Zentradi would HAVE to be more intigrated into society that what is usually thought.  It could be that Quamjin's crew of party animals may have just given Zentradi a bad name.

I know that at least one colony fleet was made up of mostly Zentradi.

Keep in mind that the first New Macross missions(of which the mainly-zentradi colony was one) was launched in 2030, 2 decades after Space War 1. The first generation of post-war children would be reaching adulthood at that point.

But yah, the zentradi to human ratio would've been pretty high, especially on early colony missions. There's no way society could've afforded a Megaroad annually without a signifigant portion of the 80,000 people being zentradi defectors or full-grown clones(Megaroad 1 was in 2012, the Megaroad 2 and 3 are in 2014, and after Megaroad 13, they start with the New Macross 1 in 2030, which carry roughly a million people each).

Full-grown clones are more likely to appease traditional zentradi that want to live among humans, but not to give up all of their old ways, than for human population growth, IMO.

Hmmmm, One wonders if Max & Millia (Mil F Jenius ) having all those kids was the societal norm at that point or just a side effect of them immitating bunnies during the honeymoon.  Or maybe even Millia going wow I can create life!      Who knows... but rampant speculation is fun. heh heh.

I'm betting it was the societal norm.

The honeymoon was long over by the time Komillia's first sister was born.

Millia COULD have just been crazy horny, but I suspect that the whole making babies thing was strongly pushed as everybody's patriotic duty.

[Cabbit Commando]

Whoops my bad on the number of colonists in the early long range flights. I thought it was 800,000 not 80,000. I rechecked the Compendium after i saw your posts JBO. That makes a big difference.

I was wondering about Kamjin's jungles covered ship too. I can just see some guy in the middle of the Rockys looking at the settling dust yelling "I knew it! Call me nuts will they" heh heh that might almost be me

I can see the point about the fish. I thought of that once too, but I don't usually eat fish so I don't think about that much. The Japanese would tho.

Since the first objective of the Zentradi was to wipe us devient little miclones out, the primary volleys would have gone to population areas first, they'd mop up the rest in latter volley's.

Not saying that life would be fun in the country. Just that reclaimation is possible, not just handwavium filled PSB Anime magic.

Good point on the timing of the New Macross class colony ships. that would fit with about the time the first generation boom after SW1 became adults.

[JB0]

Whoops my bad on the number of colonists in the early long range flights.  I thought it was 800,000 not 80,000.  I rechecked the Compendium after i saw your posts JBO.  That makes a big difference.

Yah. Ya gotta watch them decimals, they're sneaky little suckers.

I was wondering about Kamjin's jungles covered ship too.  I can just see some guy in the middle of the Rockys looking at the settling dust yelling "I knew it! Call me nuts will they"  heh heh that might almost be me 

Haw.

[Ginrai]

All this talk about the oceans being untouched reminds me of the horribly mutated fish Misa snacks on in DYRL. Mmmm.

[Keith]

You need to hire someone to write your posts for you.  Seriously, your comebacks are just shamefull.

364471[/snapback]

Said the guy who just used one of the weakest & overused cheap reply tactics...

[Agent ONE]

You need to hire someone to write your posts for you.  Seriously, your comebacks are just shamefull.

364471[/snapback]

Said the guy who just used one of the weakest & overused cheap reply tactics...

364714[/snapback]

The internet was made for you.

[Keith]

Thank you, though to be honest, I thought it was made so you could download pictures of muscles.

[myk]

............Is this a test for the new MMS-1 (mini-moderator system)?

[DeathHammer]

Please Delete Thanks

Edited February 9, 2010 by DeathHammer

[Metal_Massacre_79]

Surivival of the fittest would play an important role in the longetivity of either species. Meaning that since the Zentradi clones were bred with optimal genes and characteristics, the once multi-raced population would eventually become a mainly Zentradi population. Then the "majority rules" ideology would cause a power struggle in which the Zentradi would stop cloning the natural humans in an effort for total dominance. Natural humans that have inferior genes would eventually die out and Earth would become dominated by Zentradi.

[Keith]

That's not necessarily true at all, especially since Zentradi were bred to be disposable.

[Metal_Massacre_79]

Emphasis being placed on the word "were." Who's to say that the cloning engineers wouldn't alter the breeding process so the Zentradi were no longer disposable? What would stop them from dominating a planet? You can take a tiger out of the wild, but you can't take the wild out of a tiger.

[Keith]

When it came right down to it, the Zentradi (aside from the more advaneced officer classes) weren't that different from regular humans, they were just bigger. And even those officer classes of Zentradi were a minority among the vast fleets.