The big Masamune Shirow appreciation thread

[bsu legato]

Awright you Shirow heads, gather around. It's time we show these non-believers just how awesome Shirow-san is by discussing anything pertaining to Shirow. What is your favorite project he's done? What's your least favorite? What's your favorite comedy bit, or the best philosophical debate? What's...ahh, you get the point.

I think I'll start this topic off with a bit of a rant. I think that, in the last 10 years, Shirow has taken a bit of a turn for the worst with his works. I can sum up the problem in one word. "Fanservice." Somewhere around the time Book 3 of Appleseed was published (perhaps in that scene where Deunan and Hitomi get that massage) things started changing. Suddenly we were awash in a sea of "Intron Depots" and "GiTS lesbian scenes" and I sometimes worry that the storytelling has suffered for it. Black Magic never had to rely on sexy women to tell the story. Dominion never needed T&A to get to the punch-line. Deunan spent all of Books 1 and 2 in combat fatigues, for pete's sake!

But look at his current works, Man Machine Interface for example. Every page has at least one panel of glistening breasts, impossibly tight asses, and the alarmingly overused panty shots. Instead of moving the story forward, panels linger on Kusanagi's extremely long, Stacy Keibler-esque legs. Please Shirow-san, in the future try to focus on telling the story and not composing the most titilating shot of Kusanagi spin kicking somebody.

[Lynx7725]

To be honest, I like a bit of fan service every now and then. Too much is not good, of course.

What really starts to turn me off is his overreliance (IMO) on CG and other computer-aided techniques. He's good but not that good -- anyone who has seen a Tenjin would really appreciate the art that goes into making something CG looks so real.

Shirow really does his best work, IMO, in traditional black/ white works. His early Appleseeds were a bit primitive, but around Book 3 it got quite good.. that's his watershed, I think. The original GITS manga was a bit rough in areas but it was really good.

I don't really have a favourite piece per se.. or more accurate, I can't recall one. I'll take a look through my Intron Depots to see if I can think of any..

EDIT: Just to add: I'm expecting EXO any minute now.

Edited September 30, 2003 by Lynx7725

[bsu legato]

You raise a good point about the CG, Lynx. Those panels in MMI are just sooooo cluttered with detail that it's distracting. But I almost prefer his early style, even if it was more basic. Look at the first Dominion, for example. There's very little in the way of screen tone and hatching, but each panel is packed with enough detail to tell the story. The action scenes were so perfecty composed, IMO, that the reader had no trouble understanding what was happening. I found that the more detailed he got, the more confusing some fight scenes became.

Edit: yeah, where IS he? I thought he'd be the 1st to reply for sure.

Edited September 30, 2003 by bsu legato

[JsARCLIGHT]

Shirow rocks. He was one of the influential forces in my life when I decided to take all those technical drawing classes in college. The man is great.

(cough cough shameless plug time)

I have entire sets of Appleseed comics and GNs up on eBay right now cheap for anyone interested. All first prints, all in like new shape. Go Here for them.

(hack cough)

Seriously, the man has talents beyond talents... but he can get a tad bit confusing at times as his plots are even more detailed than his drawings.

Edited September 30, 2003 by JsARCLIGHT

[Nightbat]

What really starts to turn me off is his overreliance (IMO) on CG and other computer-aided techniques

That and the "what defines life?" undertone every story of him has

For the rest I really appreciate the action-packed style of drawing

the use of characters from his other stories as a (sometimes serious) joke

If someone mentions "Manga" the first thing that pops in my head is "Shirow"

[Jemstone]

(cough cough shameless plug time)

I have entire sets of Appleseed comics and GNs up on eBay right now cheap for anyone interested. All first prints, all in like new shape.

(hack cough)

Are you MAD!?! How can you sell them? If you do sell them I bet 10 years from now you will regret it. I love the guy's work even if I don't care for the Stand ALone Complex TV series. Still, how can you sell it? They are like timeless classics which you have to check abck to every once in a while.

[JsARCLIGHT]

(I have triples of all of them)

[bsu legato]

Perhaps I could be...persuaded...to take you take your Volume 2 & 3 GNs off your hands.

[Jemstone]

(I have triples of all of them)

Phew.... Ok, that makes alot more sense.

[drifand]

Hear! Hear! I've followed GITS2MMI right up to Vol 7 now, and guess what? When the color dropped out in chapter 5, the story really improved a lot! Wow! What a relief to see his hand drawn art again! It was like he had to focus on what he wanted to portray and was forced to draw the foreground much clearer AS IT SHOULD BE. When the CG returned briefly I was actually disappointed, but it soon dropped out again (Yay!). I'm relishing the b/w issues for as long as they last - I know the big finale will be CG'd to heck. :-)

Some pages in 6 or 7 featured a mix of styles - hand drawn art that was CG colored. THAT I have no problem with.

[Omni Existence]

To be honest, I like a bit of fan service every now and then. Too much is not good, of course.

What really starts to turn me off is his overreliance (IMO) on CG and other computer-aided techniques. He's good but not that good -- anyone who has seen a Tenjin would really appreciate the art that goes into making something CG looks so real.

Shirow really does his best work, IMO, in traditional black/ white works. His early Appleseeds were a bit primitive, but around Book 3 it got quite good.. that's his watershed, I think. The original GITS manga was a bit rough in areas but it was really good.

I don't really have a favourite piece per se.. or more accurate, I can't recall one. I'll take a look through my Intron Depots to see if I can think of any..

EDIT: Just to add: I'm expecting EXO any minute now.

What the man said!

Still trying to track down some of his Calendars and early manga works.

[Valkyrie Hunter D]

Thanks to Studio Proteus, Shirow's works made up my first exposure to manga with Appleseed being my favorite. However, I don't like how Deunan looks in the Hypernotes story. She seems to have lost some of her grit in favor of a more demure, softer look. And I really wish he'd get on with book 5 instead of putting out those CG T&A mini-comics/posters. (I say this now, but I know I'll be in line for the Eros Depot book if it comes out ).

Nubile, perky femmes aside, Shirow still shines with his mecha designs and layouts. I've read that he's got some spiders as pets, and their influence really shows in the Fuchikomas and battle platforms. And how could I forget about the landmates. The Guges is one awesome piece of mecha.

[EXO]

dum de dum... what's this??? A SHIROW thread???

hehehe...

Believe it or not I was out at a comic book shop getting the latest issues of GITS and Super Manga Blast with some Shirow reprints in it. That's how MAD I am about the man!!!

I saw your auction Js. I don't know what Studio Proteus was thinking when they put Adam Warren and those other artist on the cover of the earlier books. Still should fetch you a pretty sum though. If I didn't have multiple copies myself I would be camping at my eBay sniping grounds.

So far the best animated representation of his style has to be Black Magic M-66. I don't get why they just can't get it right!!! Is that available on DVD yet???

[JsARCLIGHT]

I saw your auction Js. I don't know what Studio Proteus was thinking when they put Adam Warren and those other artist on the cover of the earlier books. Still should fetch you a pretty sum though. If I didn't have multiple copies myself I would be camping at my eBay sniping grounds.

This is actually the third time those sets have been up on eBay... no bids... none... ever.... they just sit and sit and sit... I get emails about them, but no one ever bids... strange...

So far the best animated representation of his style has to be Black Magic M-66.  I don't get why they just can't get it right!!!

I totally agree.

[Duke Togo]

How about I post some completely unappropiate Shirow artwork? Who's with me? Nuke a gay whale for Jesus!

[yellowlightman]

I agree that he's took a turn for the worst, the scene that was edited out of GiTS:MMI was hardcore pornography, not nearly as "tame" as the scene from the first GiTS.

That said the last Shirow book I read was Black Magic, which was interesting. I liked seeing his roots, as it's obvious to see how long he's been using the same ideas and themes... And seeing Shirow draw a Gundam in-joke is pretty hilarious.

[EXO]

I don't know if anyone has ever seen a hentai manga by an artist named Newmen. It's also published by Studio Proteus (hehe, almost typed 'Nue'). The style is remarkably close to that of Shirow. Not just the linework but the screentone. One of the main girls even has Major Kusinagi's hairstyle. It makes me suspect that it's more than coincidence. If it wasn't for the explicit material in GitS, I would have doubted it more. But that hentai book has some of the best manga art I've ever seen.

[EXO]

I also agree that his evolution as an artist is not quite what I was expecting. The height of his talent, as far as I'm concerned is the last two Appleseed books. But even at his worst you can't compare most of the manga artists to him.

[bsu legato]

Good to see there's some Shirow fans around here.

For those who've read it, what did you think of the Appleseed story in Hypernotes? Deunan didn't really look like herself anymore, but otherwise I was really getting into it...when it ended! Supposedly Shirow wasn't completely pleased with his abortive start of Book 5, and wanted to do it over again if he got the chance.

Who's read Orion? I never got around to picking it up because it reminded me of Black Magic, which I was never crazy about.

[yellowlightman]

I don't know if anyone has ever seen a hentai manga by an artist named Newmen. It's also published by Studio Proteus (hehe, almost typed 'Nue'). The style is remarkably close to that of Shirow. Not just the linework but the screentone. One of the main girls even has Major Kusinagi's hairstyle. It makes me suspect that it's more than coincidence. If it wasn't for the explicit material in GitS, I would have doubted it more. But that hentai book has some of the best manga art I've ever seen.

Whats the name of the book?

*cough* For reference purposes, you understand...

[Lynx7725]

Who's read Orion? I never got around to picking it up because it reminded me of Black Magic, which I was never crazy about.

Orion's a bit wacky. IMO, you need a bit of knowledge of the Shinto religion -- or Chinese religion -- to have a better understanding of the story, but it's not essential. The story's okay but not quite Appleseed level.

Art's early Shirow.. a bit busy and/ or weak at places, but still better than the overcluttered CG look nowadays..

Shirow is and will be one of the better artists that I look up to, and his stories are always thought-provoking and interesting. His mechanical designs shows a truly creative mind -- when did you last see a human-sized mecha with a master-slave control agreement? The one to come to mind is Bubblegum Crisis and even then it's a mecha within a mecha.

But I have to say that I think he's lost sight of one key element -- that the art is only a medium to transmit the story. It seems like Shirow's caught up in experimenting with the medium (CG art) rather than telling the tale... what he is doing in CG is actually rather interesting (if you are a CG artist) but it really distracts from the story.

Oh yeah.. if you think Shirow's stories are mind-twisting, wait till you read the Yamamoto Yohko manga. The time-travel theories there are truely mind-twisting.

[Briareos]

When it comes to most things I love about about Japanese culture, it's the amount of time and effort given to all the details. Shirow's a shinning example of that. Whether it's too much in terms of art or his sidetracked technolgy quibs or his plots, you have to give cred to the man for trying.

His art shows his progress. Take Black Magic to Appleseed to Exon Depot to Neurohard to Ghost In the Shell. Apparent leaps in drawing the female form, pixel tones, and coloration. The man won't stay still with a fixed style. Which is good since he's getting better at it. But I still have issues with the breasts. They all look like Tanner Stage four breasts.

Anywayz, He's still in his computer art infancy.. Give him some time. Compared to his early computer works, the newest works are definitely an improvement.

BTW, Shirow is of course in incognito and practically no one knows who he is. But he is an art teacher. Hence his tendency to do something always new. Some lucky people have him as an Art Teacher!! grrrrr... What i would pay to have that happen for me.

His story telling is another issue. He goes over the top when it comes to plots and research. But some really original concepts have come out from his stories. For those who are complaining about not being able to understand MMI, i have to tell you that this way of story telling isn't new. Since book three of Appleseed, all sentences now require an hour's worth of research to decipher what he meant. Be it politics, technology or religion, he writes up science books and passes them off as common dialog. The exception are for lighter mangas like Dominion and Exon Depot. What I would give to have a comic written by a great writter like Jeph Loeb and all the art done by Shirow.

As I said before in another post, check out his set of posterbooks. In everyone there's computer art but you wouldn't be able to notice them now. He's gotten much better at blending his pencil to digital art. Before his pencils looked like cutouts. Also look for Eros Depot soon. It's gonna be a book collection of his erotic art.

Drew

[drifand]

Shirow getting better at 3DCG? Or is he hiring better assistants? ;-)

Those overly complex and layered "virtual environment" graphics in MMI actually look good - TOO GOOD compared the stilted and polygonized "real life" architecture scenes. I'd never be able to prove it but it sure looks like he has at least 2 assistants specializing in different aspects of 3DCG. He probably provides a quick sketch of the layout and lets the assistants flesh out the environment for his approval. Check out how he transitioned the beautiful line-art for the "Osprey" tilt rotor to stiff-as-a-log CG model in MMI Ch5... Ack. I was already pretty disappointed with the CG aspects in ID2 Blades... is it really better in ID3? The cover seemed to be no better.

[bsu legato]

Or is he hiring better assistants? ;-)

Shirow doesn't use assistants, or at least he never used to. That was a big part of the long turnround time between projects.

[EXO]

Whats the name of the book?

*cough* For reference purposes, you understand...

LOL, hey Sean. If you're a big Shirow fan and would want to compare I'll lend them to you... just don't return it like all Colonel Sanders and crap...

[yellowlightman]

Whats the name of the book?

*cough* For reference purposes, you understand...

 

LOL, hey Sean. If you're a big Shirow fan and would want to compare I'll lend them to you... just don't return it like all Colonel Sanders and crap...

I hope that doesn't mean what I think it means. But if it does, I suppose the joke was bound to come up sometime during the dicussion of "adult" manga.

[bsu legato]

So...how about the various anime interpretations of Shirow's works? I remember watching a fansub of the Appleseed OVA back when it first became available. After it was over, I just felt so....empty inside. Looking back, I guess it wasn't that bad ( I still like it better than the GITS film) it just didn't live up to the potential of the source material. Ok, that and the character designs sucked.

[EXO]

Shirow tried using assistans before. One of them ended up putting out Pixie Junket. Very Shirowesque type style. Must have been around the first Dominion comics, because it had a character like the one that didn't need a gas mask when the world was polluted.

As far as that Appleseed OVA. I think I ended up enjoying displaying it on my shelf more than watching it. There's a new CG series coming out, looked like crap on the DVD that came with the toys, but looked awesome at the SD Con... something to look forward to.

I had no problem with the GitS movie design, it's the pacing that killed me. SAC is a much better interpretation. Not a big Mamoru Oshii fan...

Where's physioguy(formerly briareos)... he's the expert around here... lol.

Edited October 1, 2003 by >EXO<

[yellowlightman]

The Appleseed OVAs was one of the first anime titles I ever saw, but I don't think I ever liked it very much. Can't remember if I read the manga before or after I first saw it...

I've heard Black Magic m-66 was decent, only animation to ever involve Shirow, but I've never seen it.

I liked the GiTS movie, it's grown on me over time although I wasn't too crazy about it when I first saw it in theatres. I think it's important to remember the GiTS movie isn't a Shirow work, it's a Oshii work. Oshii asked Shirow to let him do it how he wanted, and Shirow gave him the okay. Personally I like Oshii movies more for the feel and setting than the story itself, because the story and themes of the GiTS movie didn't do much for me.

I'm surprised they're going to fo a new Appleseed series, it's so... 80's in it's source materials, i dunno how well it'd do in today's market.

[physioguy]

hahoo!

I'm still here. I don't stroll through the off-topic category too much, but i think thats changed now that i see it's so full of great topics.

Shirow is (was?) the best.

I agree with a lot of you, that his earlier works (mid-appleseed) were beautiful and defining. But he has since redefined himself as a very CG-skilled pinup artist. I like like naked honeys as much as the next guy, but i had to sell intron depot #2 (BLADES) because it was nothing but skanky women. I've bought and kept #3 (BALLISTICS) because some of the prints are pretty amazing, but who wouldn't go for a round of landmates done with all his millenium-CG skills?!?

I think his skills are being wasted nowadays. If the Warchowski-(sp?)-brothers did a porno... it would be pretty good, I'm sure. ... but why would they do that if they could make Matrix movies instead.

What we all need (speaking as if I'm the captain of the fan-club), is:

- a mecha-heavy intron depot #4

- Appleseed gashapon toys

- yamato landmate toys

- highly detailed briareos with interactive parts

well, at least Black Magic on DVD

*please don't go off on the matrix-tangent now, even if you didn't like the films, it was just an example.

[yellowlightman]

What we all need (speaking as if I'm the captain of the fan-club), is:

- a mecha-heavy intron depot #4

- Appleseed gashapon toys

- yamato landmate toys

- highly detailed briareos with interactive parts

I think his fans woudl appreciate Appleseed 5 more. Other than GiTS:MMI he hasn't bene doing much other than (as you said) pin up work and short little works, not the longer narrative stuff he used to do.

[nghia59]

I don't know if anyone has seen this page but you should if you like Shirow's new kinky stuff.

http://shirow.web1000.com/pbcollection.html

[yellowlightman]

I'm really not one to criticise for being kinky or "adult," but that stuffis pure fan service. Really, really well drawn fan service, but pointless fan service none the less.

Now that I think about it, in a way it kind of sums up what we've all said. His current work doesn't quite have the intengrity that his amazing skills deserves, or soemthing like that.

And that girl taking a bath with the horse freaks the hell out of me.

Seriously, that's weird.

[DestroidsRage]

I love Shirow Masamunes artwork and stories. Orion is what got me hooked. Its /awesome/. Although the fun humor, and action, of Dominion Tank Police pulled me in even further. Bonaparte is probably the coolest tank ever.

I love all of his erotic artwork, its allways so damn good!! And yah... I want the manga or whatever that the naughty horse stuff is from That looks twisted In a fun way

-BEN-MAN-

[bsu legato]

It's always surprised me that there hasn't been more interest in Appleseed merchandise. The only stuff I've ever seen are those three action figures from a few years back. You'd think that somethign as cool as a Guges landmate would make an awesome toy, or at least a garage kit. Maybe if he ever gets around to doing Book 5 *prod prod* we might see some renewed interest in Appleseed toys. How about one of those spider gun platforms in 1/144 scale?