LORD KUNGFU Posted March 11, 2006 Posted March 11, 2006 Not everyone I know owns a HD tv, but as production increases and the cost to make them goes down, the demand increases, while the technology gets better and efficiency to produce increases, and companies start to make a profit rather than losing or breaking even, ...that is when more people will own it eventually. where does the demand come from for macross toys though?: I believe it might be with the international RT crowd who fondly remember macross as its robotech incarnation and instantly recognise the vf1 from the old cartoon of thier childhood. But I have a feeling high price (through all the middleman costs) is a barrier unless you are hardcore into it. The more time that is wasted, the less interested people will be and the smaller the fanbase gets as it shrinks over time. As interest dies, profits go down, and then production of that thing is reduced. The secondhand market and collectors will then be able to make a profit if they try to hold onto the toys long enough to be able to demand whatever they want for it on ebay for all the "late-comer" fans who missed the boat. (see my example of the "1/72 yamatos being sold at 1/48 prices" as one instance) 379258[/snapback] Macross has a limited fanbase, without new animation out to promote this franchise, there isn't new interest in Macross. This means any production of goods for Macross will be a *limited* run, unlike HDTV which are hot commodities, any production run is to mass produce to keep costs low and reduce prices to become more competitive than others. Yamato also enjoy the status of being the sole producer as well. Small monopoly. I think the prices are okay for toys of this level. Have you guys seen what Bandai charges for model kits? $130+ for Perfect Grade model kit, which requires less work to produce than a finished toy of the same size and amount of plastic. 379346[/snapback] Protoplast, I like you man. Its nice to see somebody thats able to back up there point. I find that most people, not all, bitch, moan, and talk out there rear end, with really no understanding of the business aspect. If you dont like the price of something, then just dont buy it. If you cant afford it, then dont buy it. If you want it that bad, skip lunch everyday and save up. Then buy it. I have plenty of money to burn, but I never pay full price for anything. I go to anime shops all the time, and if the price isnt right, I just dont buy it. A lot of people want a Ferarri, but cant afford it. I doubt that Ferarri will start to mass produce there cars so most can afford it.
Nani?! Posted March 11, 2006 Posted March 11, 2006 (edited) Although I agree with protoplast's argument technically, I think it's just wrong to say something in the realm of what lord kung fu is saying... "Dont like the price, dont buy it, simple... shut up and dont bitch and moan." As much as people have the choice and right to just avoid buying valks, they have every right to express the pinch they feel in their wallets. Ferarri's, hdtv's, global economy.... all that aside, people are dropping $150 on average for one of these things. As grown men, I think it's only natural for us to slip into fiscal consciousness once in while and realize "DAYYAMM, I paid $150 for a bloody transforming toy?!" Everyone in here is macross fan but everyone here is NOT in the same financial state... hence, the variety of reactions regarding price... Hell, even within the common trait as fans there are varied levels of devotion.... Given that, what is the fan with the greatest love of macross (among us) with least amount of money going to do? Just say "Nah, I'll just simply pass"? Things aren't always just easy like that... infact it's the always-present dilemma between want vs having the means to acquire it. Don't tell me you've NEVER sighed because you couldn't get what you want, or you did but it cost you an arm and a leg.... it hurts... Edited March 11, 2006 by Nani?!
LORD KUNGFU Posted March 12, 2006 Posted March 12, 2006 dont get me wrong, I see why people are complaining. Its just the question is why are the prices so high? Well, becasue Yamato is a business, and they want to make money. REally that simple. I personally like the high end toys. Just because everybody cant afford one doesnt mean they should lower there standards or price. I would like to see bigger better VFs. If somebody started making valks even better than Yamato and wanted to charge $500 for it, that should be o.k. Whether or not everybody gets one doesnt matter. If a plastic transforming toy is not worth $500 to you, thats just a personal delima and then dont buy it. If you cant afford a $500 toy, guess what, dont buy it. If you think its worth $500 but cant afford it, figure out a way to legitimatly get $500 and buy it. "Everyone in here is macross fan but everyone here is NOT in the same financial state... hence, the variety of reactions regarding price... Hell, even within the common trait as fans there are varied levels of devotion.... Given that, what is the fan with the greatest love of macross (among us) with least amount of money going to do? Just say "Nah, I'll just simply pass"?" Well, if the fan with the greates love of macross with the least amount of money does not have the means to purchase a 1/48, then yes, he will simply have to pass. If he was really devoted or loved macross so much, he might have to get a second job, or sell something else he has. Really, check out these forums, there people making sacrafices all the time to get more 1/48 or what ever else. Its up to you to determine whats important to you. Its not up to Yamato to make things more affordable because some people cant afford it. "Things aren't always just easy like that... infact it's the always-present dilemma between want vs having the means to acquire it. Don't tell me you've NEVER sighed because you couldn't get what you want, or you did but it cost you an arm and a leg.... it hurts..." your right, there is a big dilema between what we want and having the means to aquire it. Thats everybody in the world. People want things. If you dont have the means, then get the means. Get a better paying job. Go to school to get a better job. Start a business. If you are not willing to do what it takes, then you dont get the stuff you want. Welcome to the real world. And when you have to work hard, or sacrafice a lot, getting that valk is much more meaningful, even if its just 1 valk. Or become a Buddhist and quit wanting so much stuff. Less is more.
1/1 LowViz Lurker Posted March 12, 2006 Posted March 12, 2006 (edited) I think the prices are okay for toys of this level. I don't think anyone would disagree here. But if the option ever comes up that allows a mass release globally and that allows a reduced cost to the consumer (due to increase in efficiency) I don't think anyone will disagree with me by saying yamato would be better off for being able to access that global market. It's like when you buy something from a corner store (versus a big chain) you pay premiums not because the item went up in value (or because you have a lousy boss ) but because the store needs to boost the price to survive and make enough profit. For example say HG (or assume another company) managed to get the macross plus toys out to the US do you think that would be a good or bad thing? It would be good because now yamato have more overall people to sell thier product to. Understand what I am saying bro? It's all about expansion and getting the item exposed to as many markets as possible. It's not about whether people can or can not afford something but whether they WANT to pay the price. Kinda like how I am not interested in the alpha not because I can not afford it, but because I don't think it is worth the price. (and yes before you start to whine "DON'T BUY IT YOU STUPID NOOB!", realise that I haven't.) Of course I could easily buy something for twice the price I have seen it elsewhere (like some tiny shop that orders a small amount of something) but why would I bother doing that? We would all be happier buying them at the price we find cheapest. (did I tell you the story about how I found an import store that sold banpresto valks for 3 times the price? heh at the end of the day banpresto would have sold more of thier valks from a seller offering them at more normal price and moving them faster in shorter space of time) Having said all this: we are all happy to be addicted to our yamato crack and are not actually complaining so guy please don't take this as us whining. (even though it might come off like that. I've noticed that people are getting angry at the thought that fans commenting on how they are broke are percieved as somehow blaming or pointing the finger at people offering the service/product. That's not what they are saying. It's a great hobby to be in. I'm also into other expensive hobbies too and just as happy to have sold my soul to these as well. ..but that doesn't mean we should avoid all discussion entirely over the prices of things. I agree here with nani: voice your complaints and be honest. I bet half the lurkers come here just for advice on the best prices they can find, after all. Competition benefits consumers.) If a plastic transforming toy is not worth $500 to you, thats just a personal delima and then dont buy it. If you cant afford a $500 toy, guess what, dont buy it. If you think its worth $500 but cant afford it, figure out a way to legitimatly get $500 and buy it. Ok but what if that toy doesn't sell and the company can't profit selling it due to lack of interest? This is one of the reasons why I think smaller toys (less risk?) with good quality might actually be better since it is in more people's price range. I don't think I would want a transforming toy that reaches a certain size that it becomes too impractical to transform, pose, or display properly due to its weight. (toys are made of thicker plastic aren't they?) I would love to see a better rendtion of the vf1 though. I would end up selling my yamatos if it was so good that it supercedes them and drives thier value down. Edited March 12, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker
Nani?! Posted March 12, 2006 Posted March 12, 2006 dont get me wrong, I see why people are complaining. Its just the question is why are the prices so high? Well, becasue Yamato is a business, and they want to make money. REally that simple. I personally like the high end toys. Just because everybody cant afford one doesnt mean they should lower there standards or price. I would like to see bigger better VFs. If somebody started making valks even better than Yamato and wanted to charge $500 for it, that should be o.k. Whether or not everybody gets one doesnt matter. If a plastic transforming toy is not worth $500 to you, thats just a personal delima and then dont buy it. If you cant afford a $500 toy, guess what, dont buy it. If you think its worth $500 but cant afford it, figure out a way to legitimatly get $500 and buy it. If you "see why people are complaining" then you'd understand why people ask why the prices so high. Though, I dunno why you're saying yamato shouldn't lower standards or price. No one ever asked for that... nor is that the only way prices for products are lowered... increased efficiency for one (as low vis lurker stated) is an example of other ways. Most of the complaints and questions are posed because people honestly want to know... is it worth the money? I, like you, would like to think that it's just a matter of "buy" or "oh well, don't buy"... but it's never that black and white. but good for you for being so surgical with your decisions. Really. You must have flawless credit.   Well, if the fan with the greates love of macross with the least amount of money does not have the means to purchase a 1/48, then yes, he will simply have to pass. If he was really devoted or loved macross so much, he might have to get a second job, or sell something else he has. Really, check out these forums, there people making sacrafices all the time to get more 1/48 or what ever else. Its up to you to determine whats important to you. Its not up to Yamato to make things more affordable because some people cant afford it. Here you really seem to know what it takes for some people here to purchase one... yet, why is it that you fail to comprehend that after such effort, people here could and would express being a little worn from that tiring process. Again... hey, maybe youre just the type that happily skips along to work when gas prices reach record highs because the president cares more about the "business side of things". I apologize for the sarcasm but really, to some people who really sacrifice a larger portion of their money for this stuff, you're simplistic logic really sounds just as sarcastic. your right, there is a big dilema between what we want and having the means to aquire it. Thats everybody in the world. People want things. If you dont have the means, then get the means. Get a better paying job. Go to school to get a better job. Start a business. If you are not willing to do what it takes, then you dont get the stuff you want. Welcome to the real world. And when you have to work hard, or sacrafice a lot, getting that valk is much more meaningful, even if its just 1 valk. Or become a Buddhist and quit wanting so much stuff. Less is more. heh heh, you sound like Tony Robbins.
Mowe Posted March 12, 2006 Posted March 12, 2006 Here we go again, another business genius telling us nobody but themselves know how the business world works. Yes, we are just sheep, we only collect Valks and do not work in the real world and had never heard of the terms "business" or "world econonmy"…whatever…whatever…whatever... ...I find that most people, not all, bitch, moan, and talk out there rear end, with really no understanding of the business aspect... 379354[/snapback]
LORD KUNGFU Posted March 12, 2006 Posted March 12, 2006 Here we go again, another business genius telling us nobody but themselves know how the business world works. Yes, we are just sheep, we only collect Valks and do not work in the real world and had never heard of the terms "business" or "world econonmy"…whatever…whatever…whatever...  ...I find that most people, not all, bitch, moan, and talk out there rear end, with really no understanding of the business aspect... 379354[/snapback] 379444[/snapback] Mowe, please dont put words into my mouth. I never claimed to be a business genius and I never said that nobody else knows anything but valkyries. I find the macross crowd to be in the upper plane of intelligence. Thats why I buzz these forums. I actually agreed with a lot of points the people made in other posts. Im just noticing a trend that people just say or assume things, but they dont take into account a lot of the variables in the whole scheme of things. Especially when it has been pointed out in detail why things are the way they are. Yamato is a business, in this post we are trying to detemine reasoning for high prices(besides greed), therefore it would be a reason to bring the word business and economics into the subject.
Protoplast Posted March 13, 2006 Posted March 13, 2006 I think the prices are okay for toys of this level. I don't think anyone would disagree here. But if the option ever comes up that allows a mass release globally and that allows a reduced cost to the consumer (due to increase in efficiency) I don't think anyone will disagree with me by saying yamato would be better off for being able to access that global market. It's like when you buy something from a corner store (versus a big chain) you pay premiums not because the item went up in value (or because you have a lousy boss ) but because the store needs to boost the price to survive and make enough profit. Do you think Yamato's business model is to mass produce and sell cheap? I think they've learned from past mistakes that over-producing certain toys becomes dumping. Re-read my previous posts and think again... No business is in the business of helping you reduce cost, they will do everything to reduce their cost and whatever it takes to make you throw more money down. Yamato are in the business of making a limited commodity. Their new business model involves limited run toys, they will produce and simply fill orders and no over-runs to keep value and prices in check. When a particular model gets more demand, they will perform another limited production run. For example say HG (or assume another company) managed to get the macross plus toys out to the US do you think that would be a good or bad thing? It would be good because now yamato have more overall people to sell thier product to. Understand what I am saying bro? It's all about expansion and getting the item exposed to as many markets as possible. I understand you but I don't think you understand the business. We're talking about toys.. profit margins are low, how many middle-man can fit in this market? Supposedly you said, an importer/exporter brings the Macross Plus toys into the US and sells them legally here. The toys are already selling for $60-70 abroad, you tackle on another $20-40 the middle man needs to pay HG and shipping the goods, the final product retails for $99, who is going to take the risk of doing this for $5-10 profit with a demand of only about 10-30,000 units? What's the ROI here? Return on investment? They're making pennies on every dollar invested to get the toys here just to get it to you cheaply? Sounds like a crappy investment to me... Businesses would rather sell sneakers or ipod accessories here, more volume, lower costs, and less risky. I think you're being too idealistic, you need to work in the financial industry and see what makes the market tick. Of course I could easily buy something for twice the price I have seen it elsewhere (like some tiny shop that orders a small amount of something) but why would I bother doing that? We would all be happier buying them at the price we find cheapest. (did I tell you the story about how I found an import store that sold banpresto valks for 3 times the price? heh at the end of the day banpresto would have sold more of thier valks from a seller offering them at more normal price and moving them faster in shorter space of time Again, you show off this idealistic mentality. Do you think Tiffany's that sells over-priced jewelry cares about selling to you at discount prices? They are in business and well for selling over-priced jewelry and have no problem moving them. The fact is, Yamato being almost the sole producer of Macross toys are making limited volume toys aimed at selling to a small pocket of fans that can appreciate their quality. You think they care about selling to poor students? Having said all this: we are all happy to be addicted to our yamato crack and are not actually complaining so guy please don't take this as us whining. (even though it might come off like that. I don't take it as whining. I take it as you have a bit of maturing to do.. As I've lectured this same rhetoric to kids about your age that work for me. Only poor people complain about prices.. The rich simply walk away from prices they don't like and show up when the prices is right.
Mowe Posted March 13, 2006 Posted March 13, 2006 (edited) I can't stand these arrogant generalisation comments anymore, this is just so Bulls**t. Rich and poor is all relative but this is not the place to discuss it. Read my signature. I'm moving on. Only poor people complain about prices.. The rich simply walk away from prices they don't like and show up when the prices is right. 379733[/snapback] Edited March 13, 2006 by Mowe
Nani?! Posted March 13, 2006 Posted March 13, 2006 You think they care about selling to poor students? ................... I don't take it as whining. I take it as you have a bit of maturing to do.. As I've lectured this same rhetoric to kids about your age that work for me. Only poor people complain about prices.. The rich simply walk away from prices they don't like and show up when the prices is right. 379733[/snapback] So let me get this straight..... understanding business, like you, business master protoplast, is a requirement of maturity... AND.... the rich... never... complain about prices... just the poor... You know until this, I didn't disagree technically with what you were saying... and even applauded that you've stayed away from offending and being insensitive to people who may be less fortunate what ever state in their walk in life... but what you've just said there has got to be most ignorant and laughably dismissable comment I've heard in a while. So in all your success as a businessman and a member of the mature elite, what brings you to the "kiddie" toy section? To spread the gospel of worldwide business to the young and poor naive souls? How sweet.
1/1 LowViz Lurker Posted March 13, 2006 Posted March 13, 2006 (edited) The fact is, Yamato being almost the sole producer of Macross toys are making limited volume toys aimed at selling to a small pocket of fans that can appreciate their quality. That small pocket will gradually expand as more fans have 'access' to the quality product. It is not going to be the same person buying the items over and over again multiple times, but many different people. More people you reach = more profit. Otherwise how would the price of things go down in the first place if nobody is there to buy these things? Yeah yeah the macross franchise is dead, but I'm sure people internationally still recognise a valk from thier memories seeing RT. (meaning a hidden potential) Only poor people complain about prices.. The rich simply walk away from prices they don't like and show up when the prices is right. I think your wrong. Both rich and poor are conscious of price. As mentioned by other members the price of something depends on what it is worth personally to the person buying. So one guy buying a chunky munky for $1000 may be a poor guy who just saved up for it and is more desperate for the item vs a rich guy who just bought it on impulse but doesn't care that he paid lots because he has money to burn. That doesn't mean the rich guy likes to waste money (in fact I would argue they are more tight ass than the poor guy sort of like the "Mr Burns" scrooge stereotype from the simpsons )...just that the rich guy is more probable to be the immediate target for the product first, and then when the few rich guys have had thier fill and bought all they can stand, the price then goes down to reflect the gradually-less demand, thus opening the product up to a lower group.(but more numerous than the first group.) I can see some people are getting offended at the thought of the possibility of valks available in other markets. But I just don't understand where this anger comes from. I don't know why people get so angry. I sense you are offended at the thought that yamato valks being available in other markets means instant doom or something? Assuming HG never existed and macross toys were locally released, would you complain that prices are too low to profit? I think that is up to the company to decide based on the demand for the item which can change over time. (see ebay prices rise for things that are hard to get) Now I don't necessarily want them to flood the market, just to see what it would be like if macross toys were locally released like the other stuff they've done. (I know, its wishful thinking) Now I personally don't think it is that much to pay for yamato valks ..BUT I personally believe that people have a right to ask the question, given what other types of toy they might have bought of similar level of quality. (take all those diecast toy people for eg ) I'm against censoring discussion on price since I like to come to the forum once in a while to check on prices myself and love the competition. It's obvious there are lots of people on this forum who just want the best deal they can get regardless of how easily the cash flows so they go with whoever offers the best prices, best customer service, and ships quick. It's human nature to be greedy whether you are poor or rich. What old guys got to realise is the potential to expand and grow a market. Like what happened with the game industry when sony came in and drove the cost to develop games down as cd medium allowed for more space to store bigger games and at a cheaper price (more efficient) for the third party companies. What happened is nintendo still kept to its cartridge medium which was inefficient (unless you used compression) and costly to the developers. But the more expensive option meant nintendo lost a lot of support from valued third parties who wanted the cheapest alternative and dreamt of epic sized programs to realise thier dreams. (eg squarsoft leaving nintendo to work on playstation to bring thier final fantasy franchise over) What resulted was mass exodus from one platform to another platform when people bargain hunted for a better deal to stay competitive with thier rivals. It's not about them being poor, just wanting the best and using common sense. But anyway it is no use speculating on how profitable or how risky something is, until such time that releases of yamato valks in other markets do become reality to find out. It's never gonna happen though, so we all deal with it in our own special way. No point crying over spilt milk. Edited March 13, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker
Protoplast Posted March 15, 2006 Posted March 15, 2006 The fact is, Yamato being almost the sole producer of Macross toys are making limited volume toys aimed at selling to a small pocket of fans that can appreciate their quality. That small pocket will gradually expand as more fans have 'access' to the quality product. It is not going to be the same person buying the items over and over again multiple times, but many different people. More people you reach = more profit. Otherwise how would the price of things go down in the first place if nobody is there to buy these things? Yeah yeah the macross franchise is dead, but I'm sure people internationally still recognise a valk from thier memories seeing RT. (meaning a hidden potential) Bandai couldn't even get rid of the 1/55 Super VF-1S reissues and you think there are enough Robotech/Macross fans? Anime sells toys, no new anime means no recognition. Only poor people complain about prices.. The rich simply walk away from prices they don't like and show up when the prices is right. I think your wrong. Both rich and poor are conscious of price. As mentioned by other members the price of something depends on what it is worth personally to the person buying. This is where your maturity really shows your lack of judgement. Last thing you see rich people do is complain and whine about expensive wine at a fancy diner. If you can't roll with the prices, go roll elsewhere.. If the poor sees high prices, they cry foul, the rich rationalizes and waits for buying opportunities. So one guy buying a chunky munky for $1000 may be a poor guy who just saved up for it and is more desperate for the item vs a rich guy who just bought it on impulse but doesn't care that he paid lots because he has money to burn. That doesn't mean the rich guy likes to waste money (in fact I would argue they are more tight ass than the poor guy sort of like the "Mr Burns" scrooge stereotype from the simpsons )...just that the rich guy is more probable to be the immediate target for the product first, and then when the few rich guys have had thier fill and bought all they can stand, the price then goes down to reflect the gradually-less demand, thus opening the product up to a lower group.(but more numerous than the first group.) You just described bottom-feeders.. in your whole paragraph... What old guys got to realise is the potential to expand and grow a market. Like what happened with the game industry when sony came in and drove the cost to develop games down as cd medium allowed for more space to store bigger games and at a cheaper price (more efficient) for the third party companies. What happened is nintendo still kept to its cartridge medium which was inefficient (unless you used compression) and costly to the developers. But the more expensive option meant nintendo lost a lot of support from valued third parties who wanted the cheapest alternative and dreamt of epic sized programs to realise thier dreams. (eg squarsoft leaving nintendo to work on playstation to bring thier final fantasy franchise over) What resulted was mass exodus from one platform to another platform when people bargain hunted for a better deal to stay competitive with thier rivals. It's not about them being poor, just wanting the best and using common sense. Again and again.. you dream of this idea that using economies of scale it can help save you money and help make the toys cheaper ideally. Yamato is not in the business of doing that, they don't have the size or the market to do that, that's the bottomline. Many products such as luxury cars use price barriers to prevent the poor from owning them because the buyers want prestige. This is often the case with high end collectible items, they want to be the only ones owning them and don't like sharing. Lastly, people can whine and complain about prices and Yamato won't listen to that. All the listen to is hear from their accountants counting their sales reports. If the report looks good, they meet sales expectations they don't give a
feudallordcult Posted March 15, 2006 Posted March 15, 2006 (edited) my protoplast, i hate just about everything that you have written in your last post but unfortunately, i cannot help but agree with you in totality that in the sh*t world that we live in, it's the TRUTH and whether we like it or not, this fact will be here to stay. i still cannot understand why there's no new macross animation or movie to boost the popularity. Edited March 15, 2006 by feudallordcult
1/1 LowViz Lurker Posted March 15, 2006 Posted March 15, 2006 (edited) If the poor sees high prices, they cry foul, the rich rationalizes and waits for buying opportunities. Nope if the poor can't afford something they just don't buy it or they do but sacrifice a lot for it. Whining to thier boss for a raise won't change that they are poor. This isn't about whether the buyer themselves are poor, but what something is worth to them personally. So collectors regardless of whether they are rich or poor can tell what something should be worth by assessing the quality of the product against other similar things they've seen in the past. As an extreme example: If toynami sold you a limited edition toy for $500 and it was made very cheaply you have every right to complain. Maybe when you looked at a photoshopped image of it you were tempted so that led you to make the impulse purchase (assuming you are a rich guy and that amount isn't much to you.) So say a bunch of fans who bought the same item as you discover this thing is a real dud. Really bad QC, the effort put into its making isn't as great as other things they've seen etc and word of mouth spreads that this is a rip off for what you get. The worth of that product then goes down as less and less people desire to own it as the customer may not see value in owning it and cease buying. As another member mentioned: things are worth what the buyer is willing to pay. (maybe the buyer doesn't even care about quality, and only about the rareness of something, who knows? But so long as you have buyers to sell to, you will continue to cater to them so long as you can profit from each sale.) Now please do not tell me that the "whiners" are somehow poor people that don't ask for raises from thier bosses and that it is all thier fault. Just because a toy falls under "collector" category is no excuse for bad QC. When people read reviews they want to know they are gettin the best thing money can buy. What's my point? How does this relate to yamato? Because of the high price of a collector toy, and as fans of the toys, they will always strive to get the most they can for thier money, making sure they can get as much as they can of it. In the case of the yammy, they are not whining about the quality of the toy itself when they moan and groan about "gee yamato you are killing me and putting massive hole in my pocket with all these releases". That is a misunderstanding: they are happy to buy these things else they wouldn't even be here on the forums preordering stuff. They want the "expensive wine" BUT... will continue to complain anyway. What they mean is: this stuff is so great I wish there were some way to get more of it, at as a reduced price as possible (through some kind of local release like scopedog) so they can get more of the product for themselves, while less of the money is wasted on other things. Take shipping costs for example. Many times I have seen the complaint that the boxes are too huge (yeah yeah most of the people complaining do not represent the majority of customers but just let me use it as an example of saving) so they think a great way to reduce the cost across the board might be more compact packaging. In a sense they are not asking for yamato to make less profit, just if it were done in a more efficient way maybe that savings can go towards customers usingthe money towards buying even more toys from yamato thus increasing the amount of money they make in the long run. Or as my other example of selling to US and international fans of macross: boosting thier total number of customers just by making thier product as accessible as thier scopedog and Garland toys. (wouldn't it be great if some company brought over macross Zero OVA, followed by a US release of the VF0, and there were no legal messes with macross franchise? Similar to macross plus OVA which managed to go under the radar?) If this is not possible, that's ok, because as fans they are still going to be there buying it anyway as they have for the past half decade, (just like how people were asking $1000 for a chunky monkey to exploit desperation) but IF it can be helped and they can save, they will go to whoever sells the cheapest. REGARDLESS OF HOW RICH THEY ARE. Because they are fans. See my above example of how a poor guy with average income can save for something if he really desperately wants it. Even though he can't afford it, he will find a way to get it. It has nothing to do with how rich you are! There are people who buy trading cards not as an 'investment' but more because they just want the whole collection for themselves and willing to pay a high price for rare ones so they can "feel good" and they are just normal average people who are NOT rich. Why do they spend so much money on the card? Because it is worth that much TO THEM PERSONALLY and want it for personal reasons. The problem I see is that some people think they are whining in a 'negative' way: that is somehow yamato is doing something wrong by giving fans what they want and meeting demand. Actually it is more like a crack/alcohol addiction: the addict is happy to recieve and be part of the valkaholics anonymous the same way an addicted World of Warcraft player can't stop playing the game at the expense of his health, job, relationship with GF etc He is having heaps of fun. Whenever somebody complain about the cost, whines about the packaging, says that the QC is not consistant (crooked skulls), groans about not enough tampo printed detail, decides a paintscheme isn't thier thing etc, they are expressing their own personal complaints and rating something on based on personal tastes, experiences from other similar products, and judging the worth of something to themselves from the perspective of a fan. (not as an investor) People are not thinking about the monetary value but the whether it is 'worth it' to them. A rich person, a poor person: doens't matter. They will still COMPLAIN if they have personal nitpick about a product. Nothing to do with how much they EARN. You are looking at it from a narrow perspective: that people are complaining about price on the basis of thier income and that they wouldn't complain about it if they had more money from thier boss. WRONG! Even IF you could afford a very expensive product, if there are some issues with it (easy to damage, tacky color, poor packaging) you wil voice that complaint regardless. It is one of the reasons why I hold Alternators to be more valueable than Binaltechs because the "cheaper plastic" doesn't have the scratched paint chipping issues. It does not mean I can not afford to buy the expensive binal-tech but more that I choose to buy the alternators because it holds more value to me personally. (ie I can transform it, bump it, and not worry that it is slowly getting worse over time if I risk handling it) Think of the transformer alternator as the cheap wine that somehow tastes good to ME personally. I have an alien taste bud that prefers it over the expensive wine, so the cheap wine holds more value on my alien planet when to humans it might seem stupid. Whether I am poor or rich I will go with what I think it is worth to me, not on what ebay sellers demand for it, or what I think it should be worth in 20 years or the cost to make it. If an ebay seller sells something to you that you later found out to be a rip-off price, and your friend bought his for half the amount, there is no excuse: spin it however you like and try to 'damage control' it by reminding yourself how proud you are to have been the highest bidder, it doesn't change that you got the shorter end of the stick. This is why people complain that the low vis isn't worth the price asked: it just isn't to them personally, and whether they can afford to buy it or not won't change the fact that they refuse to pay for it beyond a certain limit. (they can afford that price on thier income, but they just won't buy it at the inflated price on principle because they just might not desire it that much. In fact not buying it might be their way of boycotting the seller in the hope that it might drive price down. A rich person might want to capitalise on the rareness of it, but a fan or a rich person who is a fan as oposed to investor, might just want one because it looked cool to them) Quote from an earlier post from you: I think the prices are okay for toys of this level. Have you guys seen what Bandai charges for model kits? $130+ for Perfect Grade model kit, which requires less work to produce than a finished toy of the same size and amount of plastic. Now this is where I AGREE with you. But to make it clear: what I don't agree with is that you believe it is only poor people who can't afford the toy who complain about price. This is where I think you are wrong. There are people who can easily afford something but choose to still reserve the right to complain because they may have just have really high standard of what it is they want or the quality of something does not meet the hype of the fan or the standard kept in the past. eg Take what happened with the release of Masterpiece Ultra Magnus. Masterpiece Prime was great, but Masterpiece Magnus was lazy and unambitious attempt to cash in on existing thing. Sure the quality of the toy was there just like MP Convoy/prime, but the personal value to fans wasn't there (just a repainted prime, based on inner robot form) so it loses points in demand from the customer. It doesn't suddenly mean people with this complaint can't afford him, (read these comments here, here and here) they are just selective over what something is 'worth' to them and would rather spend money on something more worthwhile. Similarly the yamato are great quality, but once the small base of fans have bought as many they can and have had thier fill (wanting to move on from vf1) that is when it should expand to others beyond the direct fan and rather than go for a discounted price in a 70% sale, try to expand in a new market like the US and sell to the robotech crowd. (which I believe is the hidden potential due to the vf1 being recognisable mech to both macross and robotech fans) Edited March 15, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker
Lacerta Posted March 16, 2006 Posted March 16, 2006 i still cannot understand why there's no new macross animation or movie to boost the popularity. 380478[/snapback] If it weren't for my finding the ADV dub, I wouldn't be here drooling over 1/48 Yamato Valkyries, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. I'm figuring I'll be spending $300 in the next 2 months on Yamato stuff (Hikaru VF-1S, Super/Fast Packs, and GBP Armor) and I blame it all on the ADV dub for reminding me how cool these things are.
EXO Posted March 16, 2006 Posted March 16, 2006 Reading thru all this crap... I can't believe you guys managed to stay on topic. Good work guys. Just letting you guys know that we're not lock happy montsers!
Macross73 Posted March 16, 2006 Posted March 16, 2006 (edited) If it wasn't for robotech i wouldnt know about Macross, The robotech fans i think will see that they cant survive on Toynami toys for long QC issues and the current of the Beta, so in that regard robotehc fans and instant product recognition will allow Yamato to at some point expand their line to this "untapped market" Why do Yamato Valks cost so much ? if we ever get sweeter deal all us will all over it. Edited March 16, 2006 by Macross73
1/1 LowViz Lurker Posted March 16, 2006 Posted March 16, 2006 Oh er that reminds me: http://www.geocities.com/valken_exs/index.htm Yamato has released info that the long awaited 1/48 DYRL Hikaru Iichijo VF-1S 2nd Issue should arrive in Jan 2006 and the 1/60 Macross Zero roy Focker VF-0S Valkyrie should arrive in April 2006. Word on the street has it that the US may see a domestic release! We don't know if a character name change will be in order but keep your eyes on Macrossworld for more rumor control. ^ any update on this old rumor? What would be great is if first the OVA gets released, (there are still some people who haven't even seen mac 0 yet) then following on from that, (like with Garland and Scopedog) the yamato VF0 brought over.
Chet Posted March 16, 2006 Posted March 16, 2006 Oh er that reminds me:http://www.geocities.com/valken_exs/index.htm Yamato has released info that the long awaited 1/48 DYRL Hikaru Iichijo VF-1S 2nd Issue should arrive in Jan 2006 and the 1/60 Macross Zero roy Focker VF-0S Valkyrie should arrive in April 2006. Word on the street has it that the US may see a domestic release! We don't know if a character name change will be in order but keep your eyes on Macrossworld for more rumor control. 380809[/snapback] I wonder if my retailer here in Asia would adjust his import prices on 1:48's if they ever get a U.S. domestic release?
Protoplast Posted March 17, 2006 Posted March 17, 2006 Listen folks.. I came on to give you guys some business perspectives. I didn't come on to lambaste anyone. I find entertainment when I see geeks or young know-it-alls think that on the internet that by complaining and being self-righteous to protest something, it's going to change anything in the real world. A lot of folks used these ideology they learned from school thinking their text-book can apply in the real world. A college education today is the new high school diploma, it means very little to big corporation. It just means that you know how to fill out a job application and how to read the employee handbook and they are ready to brainwash you to become their robot. I'm being harsh but I like to be straight-forward and get to the point from my POV. I learned while I was a young manager in a mid-size firm that one time we hired all these extra hands to help us build a new IT data center. The kids we hired did a great job, I was very moved by their hardwork and wanted to thank them. I asked me supervisor that we should treat them to a nice lunch like order a lot of sandwiches for them. My supervisor called the cheapest pizza place and ordered 10 pies. The kids were eating the pizzas like starved. I looked at the pizza, it was just thin and yucky looking. I told my supervisor, that ain't good, these pizzas are crap. He said.. "Look, if you want people to work hard for you, you feed them scraps and they will be more appreciative the next time." "You know why people complain and are lazy? Because when you treat them too good and give what they want, they will come back and ask for more."
1/1 LowViz Lurker Posted March 17, 2006 Posted March 17, 2006 (edited) Proto, even if a person's boss is like what you mention, will it change the fact that some people will not stop complaining? Like in those responses about the repaint of masterpiece prime as ultra magnus, even fans will hold thier fave company (that they wish to do well) in the highest possible scrutiny and they are the nice ones. Some of those people have lots a money but just want to voice thier disapointment to let it be known they will not support a move if it means by supporting it they don't get something better. All those people who bought the masterpiece prime on clearance will probably have no incentive to want masterpiece ultramagnus due to feeling like they got something better or more desirable for cheaper and that the newer masterpiece is somewhat less special and recognisable (as well as disapointing for not being what people imagined it would be) than the more-recognisable prime character. It's a case of fans actually being more anal than non-fans and having high standards which leads to the fan being nitpicky as the bar is raised higher and higher and expectations get bigger. A good company knows how to listen to its customers and provide what they want. Like when microsoft brought out the xbox, they asked what do gamers want? Rather than just going ahead and thinking for them and taking risks. So now the hardcore fan has the best online service and is willing to pay the high cost if they get the quality in return. They are hardcore gamers because they spend almost thier entire life playing and are not afraid to spend wads of cash to support thier hobby (more than the casual gamer). For example in the online gaming market there are 3 main groups identfied: 1. Hardcore gamers (most devoted and the backbone that keeps online service profitable enough to exist. The "early adopters" and first to get something for thier enthusiasm) 2. moderate gamers (bigger than the first group but laid back) 3. mass market gamers (aka the horde. Massive, but unaware; like the noobs on this forum, who once in a while come on to ask questions and don't differentiate macross from robotech) http://www.informit.com/articles/article.a...=31444&seqNum=4 The first group (the hardcore) is the most demanding due to the amount of money they throw behind their interest so they have a right to complain when they get something worse than what they have experienced before. (due to the demand rising constantly for bigger and better things.) The second are those who don't devote as much but have money to spend. (a potential market to be exploited when a company wants to expand to appeal to as wide an audience as possible) The third is the biggest portion of the pyramid and outnumbers the first group easily but has not caught on yet - but it is believed they might become more important over time. This may be analogous to the international robotech fan who might be interested in having access to the higher grade macross toys since they would be adults today (not reliant on thier parents for money, able to afford the big and expensive toys like masterpiece prime) and have no alternative but the 1/55 stuff from toynami and still pay huge amounts for these on ebay. This is why I highlight them as hidden potential. If enough are interested and have the money to back up thier enthusiasm this could be good for yamato once the 1/48 reaches saturation in thier original market. Similarly to MS with xbox, (aiming for the hardcore) Yamato have done a pretty good job since the 1/72 and come a long way imo and it just seems like they outdid themselves with vf0 by making it even more refined than the vf1. Which is why I think the cost for all the detail is justfied, this is what a fan wants. But like I mentioned about fans being more anal than non-fans, complaints will always be there as people get used to wanting the bar raised higher and higher. (greed from being spoiled as you mention) Back to my example of the complaining fans over the Masterpiece ultramagnus: most of them that did have something positive to say almost wanted to buy the new release out of pity as opposed to being excited for the product. "If I buy this maybe it will keep the more expensive masterpiece line alive and we get future releases even though I am pissed he does not have his armor.." So they were hoping (like fans do that want to help) that every little bit counts and doing thier part might encourage new releases. It's just a different perspective of looking at it: 1. some people will use a boycott method to show thier disatisfaction, almost like punishment for not meeting expectations for a "masterpiece" level toy in relation to the price asked for it and what the fan deems it is "worth to them" enough to want it at the original price set. 2. others will buy out of sympathy hoping the money made from it goes towards more of what they want in future (for example I wanted to buy the Qrau at its expensive price as a show of support for more enemy mecha as I like the non tranformable macross stuff too) In the end you will always have the group in the 1 category so long as you continue to browse forums. Rather than getting sick of these people, I say just let them complain or ignore them rather than using the ultimatum: "don't like it? Don't buy!" I see people say that but it never works. The most it does is start a flame war between the first group (hardliner punishment group) and second group ("I don't want the company to stop making things of this line, so I will buy everything to keep the company alive and be thankful for having it" group) who will play softball (create excuses to lessen the damage on image) and never ask the hard questions. Edited March 17, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker
EXO Posted March 17, 2006 Posted March 17, 2006 at this point you guys are just citing Macross stuff to mask a useless debate. too bad... was good there at one point.
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