Love Drifts Away

[bsu legato]

This past weekend I completed my semi-annual SDF Macross viewing, and I had an epiphany; After years of denial, I realized that I found the last arc of Macross to be really tedious to watch. Looking back at it as objectively as possible, they really should have let things end at Love Drifts Away. Heck, they fundamentally reuse the end of LDA for Farewell to Tenderness anyway! Hikaru resolves his feelings for Minmay (again) and realizes that Misa is in fact the one for him (again) when he is reunited with her after she narrowly escapes death (again.) I think its the way that the love triangle is basically reset that really ruins it for me. After the triumphant finale in LDA, Hikaru and Misa go back to their bickering, antagonistic roots with the added dimension of Hikaru making some incredibly juvenile lapses in judgement.

So if we put aside Hikaru ping-ponging back and forth between the two loves in his life (as if we're still in doubt as to who he'll wind up with at this point) what does that leave us with? To be frank, not a helluva lot. Our plot, what there is of it, meanders along for the remaining 9 episodes with no real narrative until the very end when Kamjin shows up to steal Christmas. The action scenes, scarce as they are, are fairly tepid. Even the Unification Wars flashback to our favorite drunk, Roy Focker, in Rainy Night consists of him flying in a stright line and shooting down a single enemy. Even more frustrating are all the plot threads that go nowhere. Insight into humanity's Protoculture-guided origins is met with grim faces and talking heads around a conference table, then dropped. A Supervision Army wreck is tantalizingly shown, but ignored. Millia and Lap Lamiz somehow recognize each other in a dogfight, but nothing comes of it.

Long story short, the last 9 episodes of Macross are not among my favorites, and I feel they come nowhere near the highs of the previous episodes. Your thoughts?

Edited December 5, 2005 by bsu legato

[EXO]

Some of it was good, but yeah, more knocked out drag out fights would be nice for an ending. A showdown between lap Lamiz and Miria and a fist fight between Kamjin and Hikaru's 1J... lol. LDA was such a grand finale, it would have been cool to bare it down to personal showdons at the end. You can tell they wrote the last episodes on the fly, but it's still better than the endings on the newer anime... Gasaraki and EVA?

[bsu legato]

but it's still better than the endings on the newer anime... Gasaraki and EVA?

349768[/snapback]

The thought of ANY of SDF Macross being written like most of today's anime is sickening. For example, instead of Hikaru fretting over his first kill for maybe half an episode, he'd be angst ridden well into Global's Report.

[JB0]

I find it interesting just because of what it is.

Too many stories end with "and they all lived happily ever after." Macross DOESN'T. We get to see what happens next.

We see zentradi having difficulty adapting to human civilization. Some of them leave to become scavengers, others riot. While Kamjin's group was the best-organized and equipped, he wasn't the cause.

We see humans trying to restrict zentradi access to a miclone chamber, which the zentradi view as a right.

We see an Earth brought to the brink of destruction, and a humanity struggling to make their homeworld a home again. The bombardment damage didn't go away with the bad guys.

We see Kaifun being an ass. Well, more than usual.

He sees a world that doesn't fit his views, and that he doesn't understand. So he falls back on what he knows, and starts anti-government riots just for the sake of rioting. He also takes up a nasty drinking habit and becomes abusive to Minmay.

We see Minmay collapse. She's nowhere near as popular as she was on the Macross, and without a massive throng of fans to distract her, she's realizing her life is empty and meaningless.

And yes, we see Hikaru act f'ing retarded and nearly ruin his relationship with Misa. It's actually in character, IMO. Hikaru's just STUPID outside of an airplane.

Deos the arc have it's flaws? Sure.

But it's still one of the things that makes Macross unique.

Those last 9 episodes are some of my favorites just for the view of the world that they offer.

[Zinjo]

This past weekend I completed my semi-annual SDF Macross viewing, and I had an epiphany; After years of denial, I realized that I found the last arc of Macross to be really tedious to watch. Looking back at it as objectively as possible, they really should have let things end at Love Drifts Away. Heck, they fundamentally reuse the end of LDA for Farewell to Tenderness anyway! Hikaru resolves his feelings for Minmay (again) and realizes that Misa is in fact the one for him (again) when he is reunited with her after she narrowly escapes death (again.) I think its the way that the love triangle is basically reset that really ruins it for me. After the triumphant finale in LDA, Hikaru and Misa go back to their bickering, antagonistic roots with the added dimension of Hikaru making some incredibly juvenile lapses in judgement.

So if we put aside Hikaru ping-ponging back and forth between the two loves in his life (as if we're still in doubt as to who he'll wind up with at this point) what does that leave us with? To be frank, not a helluva lot. Our plot, what there is of it, meanders along for the remaining 9 episodes with no real narrative until the very end when Kamjin shows up to steal Christmas. The action scenes, scarce as they are, are fairly tepid. Even the Unification Wars flashback to our favorite drunk, Roy Focker, in Rainy Night consists of him flying in a stright line and shooting down a single enemy. Even more frustrating are all the plot threads that go nowhere. Insight into humanity's Protoculture-guided origins is met with grim faces and talking heads around a conference table, then dropped. A Supervision Army wreck is tantalizingly shown, but ignored. Millia and Lap Lamiz somehow recognize each other in a dogfight, but nothing comes of it.

Long story short, the last 9 episodes of Macross are not among my favorites, and I feel they come nowhere near the highs of the previous episodes. Your thoughts?

349759[/snapback]

A more qualified expert can correct me, but I was under the impression that Macross was only commissioned to run 30 eps and it was extended by the studio and sponsors because if was such a huge hit.

I could be totally wrong, but that is the mythos I've grown up with.

I do agree that it would have been nice for the series finalle to be a more personal one.

A confrontation between Mira and Lap Lamis, Misa and Minmay, Global and Kamjin and Hikaru and Kaifun....

The war ends with LDA but the personal conflict continues until FTT. If that were played out more it would have worked better, IMO.

Edited December 5, 2005 by Zinjo

[JB0]

A more qualified expert can correct me, but I was under the impression that Macross was only commissioned to run 30 eps and it was extended by the studio and sponsors because if was such a huge hit.

I could be totally wrong, but that is the mythos I've grown up with.

349816[/snapback]

As I understand things, it was planned as a 3-season show, they were forced to cut it to 2 to get on the air, and the success of the first season got them permission to do a third season. Of course, the show had already been rewritten for a 2-seaosn run, so they had to pad it out. Global Report and Phantasm were the obvious fillers in the "main" show, and then the final 9 episodes let them do some stuff they'd previously scrapped(Roy and Claudia's "courtship" and add a few new ideas in as well.

[Zinjo]

A more qualified expert can correct me, but I was under the impression that Macross was only commissioned to run 30 eps and it was extended by the studio and sponsors because if was such a huge hit.

I could be totally wrong, but that is the mythos I've grown up with.

349816[/snapback]

As I understand things, it was planned as a 3-season show, they were forced to cut it to 2 to get on the air, and the success of the first season got them permission to do a third season. Of course, the show had already been rewritten for a 2-seaosn run, so they had to pad it out. Global Report and Phantasm were the obvious fillers in the "main" show, and then the final 9 episodes let them do some stuff they'd previously scrapped(Roy and Claudia's "courtship" and add a few new ideas in as well.

349817[/snapback]

Really?

That's unusual for Japanese animated television of that era. Usually the shows only ran a season. Hence why there are so many MS Gundam series. It was prefered to do a sequel than to continue a show for a second season.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Ah well at least we got to see destroids being used as giant riot police.

And when kamjin rides on a monster like it was a horse and he is a cowboy is a funny episode.

The episode where it is christmas and he blows stuff up is a good sign that even though they have beat the zentradi, when more arrive, there may be more kamjin-like people out there who even after hearing music will refuse to join human race for peace because they don't want to give up thier warrior beliefs. Even using culture and knowledge of technology against us, which in some ways makes them more dangerous.

It also ensured that when global gave misa the task of finding more planets to spread the human race incase another war broke out and made humans extinct like the PC and all the other races the Zentradi have probably killed, that Hikaru had no excuse to sit on the fence anymore and had to make a decision of who he would spend his life with. I thought the main reason you wanted to watch the last eps is to finally find out which decision was more important: duty serving the human race, or living a quiet life with minmay and giving up responsibility.

The back and forth I think was to cause drama. "Now that minmay has made it big, hikaru becomes insignificant to her" and so we are meant to feel all sorry for the character. I didn't find that annoying so much as manipulating us to feel more sympathetic to the character and care what happens to him. Showing the ups and downs of life. Things don't always turn out the way you plan them, and you don't always get what you originally set out to. There are bostacles and barriers in real life preventing you from just getting that dream. But I think they were all lucky in the end and it was actually a happy ending strangely. Hikaru became a pilot and flew planes, Minmay became famous, and Misa got a boyfriend instead of scaring them away. (mostly thanks to claudia's advice and to make her more relaxing to be with)

Edited December 6, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Beltane70]

That's unusual for Japanese animated television of that era. Usually the shows only ran a season. Hence why there are so many MS Gundam series. It was prefered to do a sequel than to continue a show for a second season.

As I understand it, a Japanese TV season is actually 13 weeks long. This does match with what JB0 said. Going by this, most Gindam shows are techinically 4 seasons long. This also matches with most of the live-action Japanese shows which tend to be about 12 episodes long.

[bsu legato]

As I understand things, it was planned as a 3-season show, they were forced to cut it to 2 to get on the air, and the success of the first season got them permission to do a third season.

349817[/snapback]

According to the liner notes from Animeigo, the original outline was to run for 23 episodes. When the series was extended they had to scramble to produce new episodes which included the requisite clip shows (Globals Report and Phantasm.) I'm betting that Eps 29-36 were part of this as well, since they are arguably different from the first two seasons. Interestingly, the outline for Battle City Megaroado ends on a similar note to Love Drifts Away, which only convinces me more that the later episodes were tacked on.

[Agent ONE]

I have to watch it again and give it some thought... I actually love the last episodes... I felt more secure in seeing Hikaru growing up and becoming a man.

[Wes]

I for one am glad they did it the way they did. Does everything have to end like Gundam or Star Wars? Alot of classic tales, Beowolf, Gilgamesh, King Arthur, all ended with kind of a sour note, and they were better and a little more realistic for it. Fact of the matter is that most stories don't end on a high note, even though they can be fun like that.

You do kind of put an interesting idea into my head; wouldn't the 9-episode segment be better sutted as an OVA? It's the perfect size, and it would have been wonderful to see this segment of the Macross timeline played out with better animation and more time to develop the enviroment it was trying to portray. Plus, if you didn't like it, you can pretend it never happened (like Macross 2 or 7 ).

[Wes]

As I understand things, it was planned as a 3-season show, they were forced to cut it to 2 to get on the air, and the success of the first season got them permission to do a third season.

349817[/snapback]

According to the liner notes from Animeigo, the original outline was to run for 23 episodes. When the series was extended they had to scramble to produce new episodes which included the requisite clip shows (Globals Report and Phantasm.) I'm betting that Eps 29-36 were part of this as well, since they are arguably different from the first two seasons. Interestingly, the outline for Battle City Megaroado ends on a similar note to Love Drifts Away, which only convinces me more that the later episodes were tacked on.

349895[/snapback]

They (anime's, especially space operas) always have a clip show, it just varies depending on how creative they studio is in executing it (see Nadesico).

[Mr March]

I have to say I agree with those that loved the last episodes of Macross. Perhaps circumstances did interfere and changed the nature of SDFM's final presentation, but I found the series flourished with the final arc after Love Drifts Away. The aftermath of Space War One was handled perfectly, as was the story of the Zentradi malcontents. In fact, a plot thread like the Zentradi malcontents, in the hands of a lesser writer, would have been given a sugar coating and cut off leaving the fans with a bad after taste. But in SDF Macross, that thread is given life and handled very well. The last episodes also put a close on the archs of several supporting characters and created potential for an interesting future story in the Macross franchise (regardless of the poor way it was handled after the fact).

The way in which Macross was completed is much better and more interesting than the standard fare so typical of the science fiction genre. Babylon 5 was another series that changed it's pacing due to circumstances placed on the creative team. That series too had a fine finale, leading into the potential for other good tales (again, this is ignoring what we know after the fact).

There is something...desolate and desperate about that last act of SDF Macross. The themes and emotion conveyed through those final episodes is unlike anything else in the entire series and I dare say the character's emotions are much more tangible and realistic in the final act. It was the final act in SDF Macross that attracted me to the possibilities of sophisticated storytelling in the medium of japanese animation. That kind of emotional breakdown and psychological struggle evident in the actions of the post-war survivors was a primary ingredient of how I view Macross as a whole.

Edited December 6, 2005 by Mr March

[ghostryder]

Episodes 28-36 are the only reason my wife shows any support for my Macross obsession. When i pulled out my 1/48 VF-1S for the first time, she said, "Hey isn't that's Roy Focker's Valkyrie? Cool..."

[Hurin]

I don't think there's any doubt that the post-LDA aftermath episodes were "tacked on." I could be mistaken, but I think that much is explicitly stated in either the liner notes to the Animeigo DVDs or during the interview track on the last DVD.

I see many of your points. But, for me, Macross was never really about the long, bad-ass fights. I really can't think of any great battle sequences in the pre-LDA episodes except the Max and Milia duels. For me, the draw of Macross, even when I was a kid, was watching Hikaru (or, back then, Rick Hunter) chase the girl and deal with the incredible events in which he found himself involved. The cool transforming planes and battles were secondary.

So, the aftermath episodes were welcome and remain so to me. Though, having read your post, I see your point(s) about the redundancy and Hikaru's rather lame decisions. I figure the next time I watch them (some day), I'll probably think less of them.

But, I think I'll always have a fond place in my heart for those episodes because they represent the first time a fictional world to which I was very attached went to a rather dark place (for "children's entertainment"). I have always had a keen interest in the "aftermath" of stories as well. Whenever I would finish an Ultima game, I always wished that they would have made it possible to explore the world after the game ended and talk to the people who had just been saved. I guess I'm just an "epilogue" type of guy. One thing I like so much about the show Smallville is that they seem to have a standard of bringing the show to its climax at around the 3/4 mark. . . and then the last 10-15 minutes are spent addressing how the events up to that point have affected the characters and the overall plot.

Best,

H

Edited December 6, 2005 by Hurin

[Zinjo]

The way in which Macross was completed is much better and more interesting than the standard fare so typical of the science fiction genre.  Babylon 5 was another series that changed it's pacing due to circumstances placed on the creative team.  That series too had a fine finale, leading into the potential for other good tales (again, this is ignoring what we know after the fact).

349936[/snapback]

Really? I'm an avid B5 fan and am not sure what you are referring to?

As I understand it, a Japanese TV season is actually 13 weeks long. This does match with what JB0 said. Going by this, most Gindam shows are techinically 4 seasons long. This also matches with most of the live-action Japanese shows which tend to be about 12 episodes long.

349842[/snapback]

Really?

I would have never guessed! Now I want to find out for sure!

These episodes were great showcases to show how the lives of the characters had changed. Particularly Minmay and Hikaru. Minmay now faced with the shallowness of her existence tries to rekindle the feelings Hikaru felt for her and ultimately finds that he is in love with another. I agree that Hikaru should have been written with a bit more maturity and self confidence (after all he appears to be the CAG by this point).

I still feel the series finale should have been about individual confrontations to offset the big bang of the final battle of the war. the story elements would still be preserved, just rearranged to be more exciting.

[Keith]

I always thought it went from a projected 50-ish episode run, to 26, then bumped up to 36. But whatever it was, it didn't turn out bad for it. We got Milia baby tossing, some nice after war "not so happy"-ness, etc. What really brought them together for me though was Flash Back 2012, when we get the "final" resolution to all of that, just as it was promised in ep 36.

[Mr March]

The way in which Macross was completed is much better and more interesting than the standard fare so typical of the science fiction genre.  Babylon 5 was another series that changed it's pacing due to circumstances placed on the creative team.  That series too had a fine finale, leading into the potential for other good tales (again, this is ignoring what we know after the fact).

349936[/snapback]

Really? I'm an avid B5 fan and am not sure what you are referring to?

349975[/snapback]

J. Micheal Straczynski had Babylon 5 planned for 5 seasons. Unfortunately, B5 was in danger of cancellation several times during the run of the series, but none so critical as the cancellation possibility that occured during season three. Warner Bros. was indicating there would be no 5th season for B5. JMS and company were told that it would be best to wrap-up B5 in the 4th season. In order to salvage the overall story arc of B5, JMS decided to write the story so it would end in season 4 and drop several side arcs to trim the story down. The Shadow War was originally scheduled to be resolved at the END of season 4 according to JMS, leaving the Earth Civil War to playout amongst various other events in 5th season.

As it turns out, B5 was never cancelled and was renewed for a 5th and final season. So JMS resurrected several of the dropped side arcs and created some further plots for the story (notably, the prelude to the Telepath War). This became 5th season.

[Hurin]

What really brought them together for me though was Flash Back 2012, when we get the "final" resolution to all of that, just as it was promised in ep 36.

349987[/snapback]

I've never really understood why people think Flashback is such wonderful capper. If memory serves, we see Minmay wander around the streets, then decide to go on the Megaroad. . . Hikaru touches her arm at the concert and Misa smiles at her. Joy.

I'm not sure that adds any more closure or a sense of completion any more than the original ending in Farewell to Tenderness.

[JB0]

What really brought them together for me though was Flash Back 2012, when we get the "final" resolution to all of that, just as it was promised in ep 36.

349987[/snapback]

I've never really understood why people think Flashback is such wonderful capper. If memory serves, we see Minmay wander around the streets, then decide to go on the Megaroad. . . Hikaru touches her arm at the concert and Misa smiles at her. Joy.

I'm not sure that adds any more closure or a sense of completion any more than the original ending in Farewell to Tenderness.

349992[/snapback]

Seconded.

It's an extended AMV. There's no real content in it.

But it IS fun to watch.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

We get images of the VF4 yay.

Come on yamato. Technically this is part of SDF:macross so it needs to have a toy made of it.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Exedol ain't no slouch either. He is supposed to be Britai's advisor. I kind of think he is much funnier in macross 7 though because of the way he reacts to the protodevlin. He seems kinda scared shitless to mention them. Max must have been pretty nervous at that point.

It seems to me that lots of old character apart from global tend to play bad guys who are corrupt. When the guys on earth and in the grand cannon didn't believe misa's story about the number of ships the zentradi had, they put it down to her being full of crap and turned down any request for making peace, mainly wanting to save thier own ass by hiding in a hole and quite comfortable to risk having the young die on the surface first. Bastards! Oh well, I suppose that's how they survived so long and didn't die off in the unification war.

I think the main reason we have a young female bridge crew is for presentation purposes. ie more pleasing to the eye. Global was probably perving all that time, not wondering about an inexperienced crew.

Edited December 6, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Mechamaniac]

I'll have to join the ranks of those who like the last episodes.

The only thing that makes them painful to watch IMHO, is Hikaru's staggering stupidity with regard to Minmay/Misa etc. However, I think we are all forgetting one very salient point about Hikaru. At the END of Space War 1, he's only 17 years old!.

When I was 17, I only had one thing on my mind . At 19, I was in the Army, and the military has a very distinct way of making you pull your head out of your ass in a hurry. So, let's sum up young Mr. Ichijo....

He starts out as a 16 year old kid, gets involved in an interstellar war with the fate of the human race hanging in the balance, joins the military, watches his best friends get waxed, realizes the ultimate corruption of most of the Adults he is subordinate to, watches his home planet get razed, kills hundreds if not thousands of people (Zentraedi are people too!). During all this heinous stuff he had to go through, he was also trying to figure out what that thing in his pants was for. Then one day....BAM!, it's all over. Something tells me they didn't have alot of time onboard the Macross for grief counseling, or PTSD counseling, and I highly doubt that much was going on afterwards either. So, it's understandable that Hikaru becomes a bitter little dickweed in the last 9 episodes.

I have to say that "Rainy Night" is one of my favorite episodes of the last 9. In the continuing theme of darkness, you see that Claudia will never recover from the loss of Roy. She openly tells Misa that she became an alcoholic after he was killed, and even though she admits it as if it were a past tense thing, she tells Misa to get lost so she can have a drink with Roy's picture, creepy.

Minmay doesn't fare much better. She gets spurned by Hikaru after finally realizing that she loves him, and is left at 17 with a washed up career, and noone who really gives a crap about her.

Global, Shammy, Kim, Vanessa, they all get waxed when the Macross gets destroyed.

In all, the series ends on a pretty dark note.

[Hurin]

Global, Shammy, Kim, Vanessa, they all get waxed when the Macross gets destroyed.

Great post! Except, I think they all survive in Macross. You are still suffering from a minor RT taint!

[Agent ONE]

What really brought them together for me though was Flash Back 2012, when we get the "final" resolution to all of that, just as it was promised in ep 36.

349987[/snapback]

I've never really understood why people think Flashback is such wonderful capper. If memory serves, we see Minmay wander around the streets, then decide to go on the Megaroad. . . Hikaru touches her arm at the concert and Misa smiles at her. Joy.

I'm not sure that adds any more closure or a sense of completion any more than the original ending in Farewell to Tenderness.

349992[/snapback]

Interesting, I always saw Flashback as a replacement for the last 9 episodes for DYRL. As in the TV show had the last 9, so DYRL gets Flashback to finally tie things up.

*Nobody bring up the whole M7 movie within a movie thing, thats just stupid and was invented 10 years after production, so if you ever talk about it, you are a douche-bag.

[bsu legato]

Interesting, I always saw Flashback as a replacement for the last 9 episodes for DYRL.  As in the TV show had the last 9, so DYRL gets Flashback to finally tie things up.

*Nobody bring up the whole M7 movie within a movie thing, thats just stupid and was invented 10 years after production, so if you ever talk about it, you are a douche-bag.

350083[/snapback]

Quoted for truth!

[Mechamaniac]

Global, Shammy, Kim, Vanessa, they all get waxed when the Macross gets destroyed.

Great post! Except, I think they all survive in Macross. You are still suffering from a minor RT taint!

350073[/snapback]

Yeah, I stand corrected. IIRC, it is ambiguous at the end of Macross, unlike RT. But, I just checked the compendium, and while it too is ambiguous as to the events of the last episode, if you check the Chronology, it does say...

2013 - Admiral Bruno J. Global's installment as U.N. Government representative.

[waters7]

Global, Shammy, Kim, Vanessa, they all get waxed when the Macross gets destroyed.

Great post! Except, I think they all survive in Macross. You are still suffering from a minor RT taint!

Also, one of the bridge bunnies makes a brief presentation in one of the Macross 7 dramas (Docking Festival) and as a matter of fact, IIRC she is a commander for one the immigration fleets. I'm not so sure if it's Shammy or Kim

regards

[EXO]

Interesting, I always saw Flashback as a replacement for the last 9 episodes for DYRL.  As in the TV show had the last 9, so DYRL gets Flashback to finally tie things up.

That's the way I saw it too. FB2012 for DYRL and LDA for SDF. I wish they made a sequel after that...

what's M7? That's like Alien3 and 4... never happened!

[JB0]

What really brought them together for me though was Flash Back 2012, when we get the "final" resolution to all of that, just as it was promised in ep 36.

349987[/snapback]

I've never really understood why people think Flashback is such wonderful capper. If memory serves, we see Minmay wander around the streets, then decide to go on the Megaroad. . . Hikaru touches her arm at the concert and Misa smiles at her. Joy.

I'm not sure that adds any more closure or a sense of completion any more than the original ending in Farewell to Tenderness.

349992[/snapback]

Interesting, I always saw Flashback as a replacement for the last 9 episodes for DYRL. As in the TV show had the last 9, so DYRL gets Flashback to finally tie things up.

*Nobody bring up the whole M7 movie within a movie thing, thats just stupid and was invented 10 years after production, so if you ever talk about it, you are a douche-bag.

350083[/snapback]

But DYRL is a movie within the Macross universe!

[Hurin]

Interesting, I always saw Flashback as a replacement for the last 9 episodes for DYRL.  As in the TV show had the last 9, so DYRL gets Flashback to finally tie things up.

*Nobody bring up the whole M7 movie within a movie thing, thats just stupid and was invented 10 years after production, so if you ever talk about it, you are a douche-bag.

350083[/snapback]

But DYRL is a movie within the Macross universe!

350127[/snapback]

But seriously, how do you decide which one is the official timeline/plot without that invention? Does Kawamori or the other Macross powers-that-be have no weight in this debate? Cuz I'm pretty sure the "movie within the universe" is the official line.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'll go fill myself with vinegar and insert. . .

H

Edited December 6, 2005 by Hurin

[Mechamaniac]

Interesting, I always saw Flashback as a replacement for the last 9 episodes for DYRL.  As in the TV show had the last 9, so DYRL gets Flashback to finally tie things up.

*Nobody bring up the whole M7 movie within a movie thing, thats just stupid and was invented 10 years after production, so if you ever talk about it, you are a douche-bag.

350083[/snapback]

But DYRL is a movie within the Macross universe!

350127[/snapback]

But seriously, how do you decide which one is the official timeline/plot without that invention? Does Kawamori or the other Macross powers-that-be have no weight in this debate? Cuz I'm pretty sure the "movie within the universe" is the official line.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'll go fill myself with vinegar and insert. . .

H

350138[/snapback]

Yes, but if you accept that DYRL is a "Movie within the fictional universe" then you would have to apply some sort of Last Action Hero magic to explain why Exsedol was humanoid in the series (canon), had tentacles and a big pulsating brain in DYRL (supposedly not canon), and STILL had tentacles and a big pulsating brain in Macross 7 which (despite what the h8ers say) IS canon.

Not to mention the significant differences in the Macross itself as it is shown in DYRL, and Plus (canon) looking exactly the same. I'm not talking about the ARMD platforms either, I'm talking about the whole damned ship looking different. We all know the popular explanation that the ARMD platforms were added post SW1.

Then there's the fact that all of the canon series that came after DYRL mirror the design elements from DYRL, all the pilot suits, helmets, armor, etc.

Bottom line, the "Movie within the fictional universe" theory is full of holes. I give it about as much creedence as I do Mikimoto's "because he's a Genius" explanation of why Max looks so young in Macross 7. I think both were comments given on the fly to interviewers and blown out of proportion by us, the fans.

[JB0]

Yes, but if you accept that DYRL is a "Movie within the fictional universe" then you would have to apply some sort of Last Action Hero magic to explain why Exsedol was humanoid in the series (canon), had tentacles and a big pulsating brain in DYRL (supposedly not canon), and STILL had tentacles and a big pulsating brain in Macross 7 which (despite what the h8ers say) IS canon.

Not to mention the significant differences in the Macross itself as it is shown in DYRL, and Plus (canon) looking exactly the same.  I'm not talking about the ARMD platforms either, I'm talking about the whole damned ship looking different.  We all know the popular explanation that the ARMD platforms were added post SW1.

Then there's the fact that all of the canon series that came after DYRL mirror the design elements from DYRL, all the pilot suits, helmets, armor, etc.

Bottom line, the "Movie within the fictional universe" theory is full of holes.  I give it about as much creedence as I do Mikimoto's "because he's a Genius" explanation of why Max looks so young in Macross 7.  I think both were comments given on the fly to interviewers and blown out of proportion by us, the fans.

350139[/snapback]

The Macross underwent a major refit immediatly after the end of the series. Otherwise it would have no cannon, no right arm, and a big chunk missing from the side.

The general argument I've seen is that DYRL is the visual style of the world, but the TV series is the plot(and given the TV series visual style fluctuates wildly at times, it makes sense to not use it for visuals).

Regardless of the excuse, once they started making sequels A version of the original story had to be chosen. The official continuity says that version is the TV series, likely due to it's greater depth.

DYRL got tucked into the continuity as a movie within the Macross world because they didn't want to totally discard it, which was the alternative for a massively contradictory version of Space War 1.

[Hurin]

Or, to put what JBO is saying a bit more simply: In what "historical" context are the later Macross series/movies placed? It is the official line (I believe) that SDF Macross represents the "real" story line or history while DYRL represents the official visual style.

I don't think anyone is asking for explanations for how things can look different, etc. . . some people just wanna know what "really happened" given the two different takes on the events of Space War I. Or, in other words, when Isamu and Myung read their history books, does it reflect SDF:Macross or DYRL? Unless I'm mistaken, it's the former.

But one can't fault the Macross powers-that-be for wanting to keep the cooler designs and superior aesthetics of DYRL even while they have designated the more fully fleshed-out TV series plot as the official "history."

H

Edit: Typos.

Edited December 7, 2005 by Hurin