How Does Shoji Kawamori Rate As A Mecha Designer?

[Torii]

GaoFighGar = Kazumi Fujita.

Gundam Astray Blue Frame Second L = BEE-Craft (Junichi Akutsu, I think; definitely one of the Artmic alumni)

Genesic Gaogaigar = not sure that's Okawara either...

Well, they say "You learn something new everyday.", right? But hey, I like mecha as a whole. Very enjoyable genre, obviously. >_> But yeah, juggling watching new mecha series between Kamen Rider series is tough, on top of other things.

[SpacyAce2012]

Kawamori is certainly one of the more talented ones in the anime world. However, I don't much care for his work outside of Macross. That doesn't mean I think his other works completely suck. They just don't strike my fancy, so to speak.

The VF-1, in my eyes, was his crowning achievement.

[eugimon]

I second that 'cluttered' comment.

I wished he made the mecha 'cleaner'. Too many fins and bumps sometimes.

just curious, which mecha are you referring to and compared to what? IMO, kawamori puts bits and odd fins to mimic modern military craft (ie: they serve a function) where most other mecha designs add bits to make them look cool... cough *gundam* cough.

[grebo guru]

just curious, which mecha are you referring to and compared to what? IMO, kawamori puts bits and odd fins to mimic modern military craft (ie: they serve a function) where most other mecha designs add bits to make them look cool... cough *gundam* cough.

*cough*Aquarion*hack*Japanese Battletech*wheeze*Gunhed*koffkoff*

[eugimon]

*cough*Aquarion*hack*Japanese Battletech*wheeze*Gunhed*koffkoff*

those are the best you can come up with? those three examples of kawamori loading up with decorative bits?

If we look at his complete history of work from diaclones to current... you come up with three, genre specific designs. hahaha.

btw, those examples are pretty genre specific. the aquarion designs very much fit giant/super robot. gunhed is ugly for sure, but you can't tell me you like shirow when he makes up the same sort of thing (revolver tank from appleseed vol. 1)

And japanese battletech? hahaha, that's funny... the japanese version of american versions of stolen japanese designs - aping the same craptastic style in all those cyberpunk/mecha RPGs. yes, they were pretty bad.

are these even considered to be his iconic works? I don't think so. and to compare them to bird wing gundam? haha, you're joking right?

[grebo guru]

Don't go laughin' at people, man. You're too boring to get away with it.

[sketchley]

?

Huh? That makes no sense - especially as there is substance in eugimon's post.

As for my 2 cents on the topic - you can do a lot worse than Kawamori. At the very least, Kawamori is attempting to be realistic, and add realistic elements to his design. His worst design, IMHO, is the line-art of the jet mode of the SV-51: a complaint of there being too many lines which confuse the overal shape of its dorsal surface is valid. Yes, computers allow for more complex things, but sometimes they allow people to go too far into the realms of complexity.

[eugimon]

Don't go laughin' at people, man. You're too boring to get away with it.

awww, poor dearie, did I hurt your wittle fweeelings? don't worry grebo, I think your derivative and plagarized designs are best of all. kiss kiss.

**above rhetorical statement reflects the opinion of the user only and does not reflect the opinion or views of this website, administrator or moderators. Opinions expressed are to be taken in jest as a sarcastic comment only and are not to be taken as a statement of fact.**

Edited December 3, 2006 by eugimon

[eugimon]

?

Huh? That makes no sense - especially as there is substance in eugimon's post.

As for my 2 cents on the topic - you can do a lot worse than Kawamori. At the very least, Kawamori is attempting to be realistic, and add realistic elements to his design. His worst design, IMHO, is the line-art of the jet mode of the SV-51: a complaint of there being too many lines which confuse the overal shape of its dorsal surface is valid. Yes, computers allow for more complex things, but sometimes they allow people to go too far into the realms of complexity.

okay, thanks. I see what you mean about the extra bits on the SV-51 design. I wonder though if the addition of extra planes (that break up the overall shape) was done on purpose as it seems consistantly done on his enemy mecha designs. Comparing his other valk designs, his un spacy valks tend to have more clean and simplified lines while the enemy valks like the fx-109, fbz-99g and sv-51 tend to have more cluttured designs.

His more recent designs seem to bear out my theory... comparing the nirvash Zero to the End, the Zero is much more clean and clutter free while the End has extra bits applied.

[Zinjo]

okay, thanks. I see what you mean about the extra bits on the SV-51 design. I wonder though if the addition of extra planes (that break up the overall shape) was done on purpose as it seems consistantly done on his enemy mecha designs. Comparing his other valk designs, his un spacy valks tend to have more clean and simplified lines while the enemy valks like the fx-109, fbz-99g and sv-51 tend to have more cluttured designs.

His more recent designs seem to bear out my theory... comparing the nirvash Zero to the End, the Zero is much more clean and clutter free while the End has extra bits applied.

SK always seems to lean toward the hero mecha being the "pretty" ones and the bad guys being ugly or less appealing.

The Battlepods and the fighter pods are his first published fuglies, but dispite his best efforts everyone fell in love with the Q-Rau....

Even the government LFO's in E7 were not nearly as interesting as the Gekko State's, with the only exception being Charles and Ray's LFOs.

Unlike many of the latter Gundam shows which gave equal time to both sides to have cool looking mecha.

Edited December 2, 2006 by Zinjo

[sketchley]

I have no problems with the Fz-109, and Fbz-99, as they have just the right amount of both thick, and panel lines, for the shapes of the airframe to be understood.

IMHO, Macross 7 contains some of Kawamori's best work since SDF:M, as the designs are all visually simple, yet complicated. Yes, anime magic is present in all of Kawamori's designs, but I have yet to see some type of entertainment where the designs are not distorted in some way (take out a wall here to make a better shot, move the seat to the left in the cockpit to get a better shot, etc..)

Moving beyond Macross, IMHO, his work in Cyber Formula is also good. Yes, I don't like the racing cars, but the designs are again, simple, but complex. (Funny that Cyber Formula is another TV series...) He also did some great easy-to-decypher designs for Patlabor 1, Patlabor 2, and Ghost in the Shell.

So yeah, just his dorsal of the SV-51 has too much extraneous line action going on (that confuses the basic shape), for me.

[Lightning]

-snip

Moving beyond Macross, IMHO, his work in Cyber Formula is also good. Yes, I don't like the racing cars, but the designs are again, simple, but complex. (Funny that Cyber Formula is another TV series...) He also did some great easy-to-decypher designs for Patlabor 1, Patlabor 2, and Ghost in the Shell.

-snip-

wow, I never knew about that series..........must keep temptation to buy the box set.......at bay.....maybe in January.....

[eugimon]

I have no problems with the Fz-109, and Fbz-99, as they have just the right amount of both thick, and panel lines, for the shapes of the airframe to be understood.

IMHO, Macross 7 contains some of Kawamori's best work since SDF:M, as the designs are all visually simple, yet complicated. Yes, anime magic is present in all of Kawamori's designs, but I have yet to see some type of entertainment where the designs are not distorted in some way (take out a wall here to make a better shot, move the seat to the left in the cockpit to get a better shot, etc..)

Moving beyond Macross, IMHO, his work in Cyber Formula is also good. Yes, I don't like the racing cars, but the designs are again, simple, but complex. (Funny that Cyber Formula is another TV series...) He also did some great easy-to-decypher designs for Patlabor 1, Patlabor 2, and Ghost in the Shell.

So yeah, just his dorsal of the SV-51 has too much extraneous line action going on (that confuses the basic shape), for me.

in fighter modes, the fz and fbz work, but I find their battroid modes have many design elements that seem discordant.

kawamori also desrves some credit for the armored core line. While I find the game itself boring, the fact that there are so many independent bits and pieces that can be combined in hundreds of way and work (more or less) stylisticly is pretty impressive.

[sketchley]

Ah... I was refering to their jet modes only.

The battroid mode of the Fz-109 was designed by Kazutaka Miyatake. So, any big differences stem from that (two different people.)

The Fbz-99 is another story altogether. Perhaps it was Kawamori attempting to create a battroid mode reminiscent of Kazutaka's 2 Varuta battroids?

[Chaos]

I like him, as a designer. The VF-1 is an incredible design, enduring to this day as a benchmark by which transforming mecha are compared. I totally dig the VF-4 Lightning, and I tout the YF-19 as one of the sexiest planes ever made. I would die a happy man if I had a figure of the SDP-1 Stampede Valkyrie. I own a Military type Aquarion, and I love it because it is the single most complex transforming toy I have touched. The GP-01 and the GP-02 are both great. I have almost all the Armored Core series, though that's mostly because of the game itself, though I own a few of the models, and a couple figures, and THAT's all about Kawamori. The THS-02 G1 Convoy was insanely cool, especially concerning it's size. There's really only one thing by Kawamori that I don't really like, and that's the MP-03 Starscream. It's not that I don't like what it is now, it's fine, I guess. What irked me about that figure was that Kawamori had the most perfect sculpt of Starscream, and THEN changed it. Other than that minor conflict of opinion, his stuff rocks! I should add to this, however, that I dig Hajime Katoki oh so much more.

[UN Spacy]

Bizzump for 2007 b/c it's a big year for Kawamori-san.

1. NEW Aquarion OVA

2. Mecha designs on KISSDUM

3. Macross 25th Anniversary Special?

[s001]

Everything he's done since Macross Plus have been anorexic designs that look too similar to each other.

The VF-1 was the best design he's done and I doubt he'll ever come close to that level of awesomeness again.

I'm completely agree with that, the VF-1 is the pure concept of "variable fighter", no matter how many designs have come after.

[s001]

Don't forget that great part of the of Kawamori's success as a mecha designer haves a reason on his Kazutaka Miyatake side by side work.

[Slugworth]

The "suitcase" guns in "Ghost in the Shell" were so cool. To me, the best designers are the ones that are able to balance complexity and elegance. Kawamori is pretty good at that.

[azrael]

The "suitcase" guns in "Ghost in the Shell" were so cool. To me, the best designers are the ones that are able to balance complexity and elegance. Kawamori is pretty good at that.

Mmmkay. Kawamori only did the designs for the crab-tank and helicopters. He didn't do the firearms/small-arms drawings....

[Slugworth]

Who did then? Atsushi Takeuchi?

And damn, the tank at the end kicked ass. It was definitely the show-stopper for me.

[sketchley]

I don't belief Kawamori did the tank. It doesn't have his signature drawing style. I believe the same guy who did the designs for the vehicles in GitS did the Think-tank - Takeuchi Atsushi. I'm guessing, but I believe he also did the handguns and briefcase machine gun too (but innitial design inspiration goes to Masamune Shirow, as it's first seen in his manga, and Mamoru Oshii for including the scene in the movie.)

All of the vehicles from GitS can be found on this page: http://www.serenadawn.com/GITS-Vehicles.htm

Kawamori Shoji's two helicopters are (fanfic?) named as: AWACS helicopter and Megatech Hekatoncheires Sniping Helicopter, whereas the tank in question is referred to as the Kenbishi Standard Light Weight Tank – Multi-Ped.

All of those names are fan-fic, as it's the first and last time that I have heard or read them.

[eugimon]

I've always seen sk credited with the crab tank.

[kung flu]

I kind of like his designs for the Armoured Core games, at least i think he designed them

[Beltane70]

I kind of like his designs for the Armoured Core games, at least i think he designed them

You are correct!

[UN Spacy]

Anyone else have photos of Kawamori messing with LEGO's?

[myk]

I hope that isn't a color scheme he's planning to approve for the upcoming '51...

[eugimon]

I hope that isn't a color scheme he's planning to approve for the upcoming '51...

lol. looks like there's going to be an Angel Birds paint scheme for the Sv-51.

[HoveringCheesecake]

He'll be remembered for the VF-1, and by extension the VF-0. To many people the VF-0 is simply an updated VF-1. Of course its the opposite in the canon, but you understand what I'm saying.

Didn't he design Diaclone Convoy? If he did that's another one to add to the list.

[Fly4victory]

Thanks, Have only seen the pictures from the design works book.

The SV-51 looks great too bad had to make custom wings and fins.

Anyone else have photos of Kawamori messing with LEGO's?

[MangledMess]

I gotta agree with Graham and Mr. March here. Seeing so many designs of Gundams(despite the fact that I only like 3 designs in the Gundam franchise, which is the Sentinel, Hi-Nu, and the Gundam Astrays) in one show sorta gave me a headache. Where do they get the resources anyway to build them in such speeds? That seems to bug me at times.

I was once slightly disappointed that there wasn't some variety in terms of design for the VF-1 (just the heads), but the more I think of it, it seems Kawamori was trying to be practical in a real world sense, so I didn't really mind as long as the Valkyries did their job instead of being fashionable super-mechas .

Maybe this is another reason why I personally(I stress, *personally*) don't like Macross 7 at all. It took the Gundam route with so many designs in one show. But I think it's the loud colors of those rock star Valkyries, PARTICULARLY the VF-19-kai Fire Valkyrie, that nails it. Oh, my virgin eyes... X.X.

Edited April 10, 2007 by MangledMess

[sketchley]

For starters - Shouji Kawamori is a Gundam fan first. Any similarities can be traced to his love of Gundam.

Coming out of the Golden Age of Anime were 3 super shows with anime first:

Space Cruiser Yamato: realistic looking space ships

Mobile Suit Gundam: semi-mass production, and true 3-D space combat

Super Dimension Fortress Macross: realistic looking transforming mecha, and mass production to the mind boggling scale.

All shows built on the firsts established by their predecessors. And all shows are still known, with the occasional sequel being produced every few years or so.

Mangledmess - it's funny you mention production, resources and speeds. Gundam obviously doesn't have the capabilities, yet they have the most variety. Macross has the capabilities, but over the course of the timeline, they have produced a far smaller quantity of different vehicles. Yes, Macross 7 has a lot, but on the other hand, it's a series that takes place about 45 years since the development of the first VF. Therefore, I don't see the show as introducing a lot of different VFs from the same time, but rather showcasing the results of years and decades of VF development. Even then, all the "rock star" VFs are growths out of existing VFs.

[MangledMess]

For starters - Shouji Kawamori is a Gundam fan first. Any similarities can be traced to his love of Gundam.

Coming out of the Golden Age of Anime were 3 super shows with anime first:

Space Cruiser Yamato: realistic looking space ships

Mobile Suit Gundam: semi-mass production, and true 3-D space combat

Super Dimension Fortress Macross: realistic looking transforming mecha, and mass production to the mind boggling scale.

All shows built on the firsts established by their predecessors. And all shows are still known, with the occasional sequel being produced every few years or so.

Mangledmess - it's funny you mention production, resources and speeds. Gundam obviously doesn't have the capabilities, yet they have the most variety. Macross has the capabilities, but over the course of the timeline, they have produced a far smaller quantity of different vehicles. Yes, Macross 7 has a lot, but on the other hand, it's a series that takes place about 45 years since the development of the first VF. Therefore, I don't see the show as introducing a lot of different VFs from the same time, but rather showcasing the results of years and decades of VF development. Even then, all the "rock star" VFs are growths out of existing VFs.

Ah, yes, quite true. I might be just too used to the fewer VF-1s in Macross to appreciate the VFs in M7. I just thought they would have kept it simple, but with the theme that M7 is going with, I was disappointed, but at the same time I shouldn't complain too much. Personally, I just found some of the latest VFs, especially the Sound Forces, a bit too much for me to take.

As for the production and resources, I admit that I'm no expert in those. As I said, I tend to like things to be simple and practical as far as Macross is concerned in terms of production. As with Gundams, how did they get out that much variety that may or may not be expensive to mass-produce? Then again, as much as I'm a mecha fan, I'm sadly lacking in things such as details, as I'm in the dark on some knowledge.

Edited April 10, 2007 by MangledMess

[sketchley]

Lessee... in Macross 7, Sound Force has all of three different mecha. Of that:

VF-19 Kai: based off of the VF-19, and apparently has less total weapons, but includes speakers and flashy lights. VF-19 varients also include the VF-19A (atmosphere optimized), VF-19F (space optimize), VF-19S (F version squadron leader), and VF-19P (Zolan.)

VF-17T Kai: basically a modified two seater VF-17T.

VF-11 MAXL Kai: probably the most extreme of the Sound Force VFs. However, it is a (heavily?) modified VF-11 MAXL, which in turn is a modified VF-11 that includes parts from the VF-16 in a delta-winged fuselage.

In two of the 3 VFs, by not seeing more of the other varients that exist works against them; however that may have been the intention of the producers of the show.

[UN Spacy]

Sorry to bump guys.

I've got a few questions about Kawamori that's kinda bugging me.

Is it true that he designed Diaclone Convoy?

Does anyone know exactly what he worked on during his Transformers days?

If you have the "Transformers Generations Deluxe" book, on page 096 you can see a rough draft of the Diaclone "Convoy". It's clearly an early version of Optimus, with the head being the only truly radical difference. This drawing was done by Kawamori. (In the text block in the upper left corner of that picture, Kawamori's name -- in Japanese characters -- can be found.)