How Does Shoji Kawamori Rate As A Mecha Designer?

[ChrisG]

Kawamori is definitely one of my top designers. Lots of fans always talk about Okawara and Katoki, and I don't think enough credit is given to guys like Junichi Akutsu, Kimitoshi Yamane or Junya Ishigaki. Those guys are all great designers and deserve more main mecha work...especially in Gundam.

[chrono]

Well I'm not terribly well-versed in mecha design or their designers, but I'd have to say that Shoji K. is most definatly within the top 10, proabaly around 5th or 6th place. As long as you keep it within the anime section.

But the GOD's(leaders) of the field are definatly Kobayashi, Mamoru and Hideaki Anno!! With about 6 or so stellar designers that are kinda hit & miss.

[yellowlightman]

But the GOD's(leaders) of the field are definatly Kobayashi, Mamoru and Hideaki Anno!! With about 6 or so stellar designers that are kinda hit & miss.

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What mecha did Anno design? I thought he was just a director/writer...

[Graham]

But the GOD's(leaders) of the field are definatly Kobayashi, Mamoru and Hideaki Anno!! With about 6 or so stellar designers that are kinda hit & miss.

351352[/snapback]

Personally, I don't rate Mamoru Nagano that highly, as his ornate, spiky and highly impractical mecha designs do nothing for me. His L-Gaim designs were his best work IMO, but I've never liked his FSS and Brain Powerd mecha. He seems to lack variety in his work.

And who is Kobayashi?

For me the top 5 mecha designers would be: -

1) Kawamori for all his Macross VF and Armored Core designs.

2) Shinji Aramaki for his work on Mospeda, MADOX and Megazone 23.

3) Hajime Katoki for his Gundam Sentinel & Victory Gundam designs.

4) Izabuchi Yutaka for his Char's Counter Attack, 0080, Gasaraki and Patlabor designs.

5) Kunio Okawara for his Votoms mecha. (I can't stand 99.99% of his Gundam designs, but his Votoms work is inspired).

Graham

[Gui]

And who is Kobayashi?

351538[/snapback]

An artist with an unique style and who does a lot of scratchbuilds if I got it correctly

A book of his works has been released during march, called Hyper Weapon, with some nice photos and drawings...

In a similar vein, Kazuhisa Kondo often uses very deformed and disproportionate shapes/limbs in his models

[kalvasflam]

Personally, I don't know any designer other than Kawamori, but, his designs are the best in my opinion, the designs in CCA are pretty decent too, but I don't really know the person that Graham named.

The only disappointment in Macross series was that they didn't have more variants on the VFs and mechs they had. Compared to Gundam verse, I think Macross comes up a little shy. But I don't mind too much, VF21 is my favorite Kawamori. Followed closely by VF-1, and although you guys might not believe it, GP02 from 0083.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

All I can say is: I'd pretty much end up buying every variable fighter, attacker, bomber toy from macross universe (un spacy, zentradi, Zola etc) if they were made. (if we could just leave vf1 alone for a while and maybe get some Black VF22S from dynamite 7 - yum)

Whereas with gundam it is kinda hit or miss because there so many mecha - qauntity over qaulity. They cater to different environments: ground, space, desert, sea etc If they made it so that the variable fighters each had a new design for the different environment they specialise for, (but they are pretty much all-environment) maybe that would be an excuse to keep making/milking variations of the same thing.

Variable Glaug - desert type

Variable Glaug - with striker pack

Variable Glaug - blue water type

Variable Glaug - upgraded version with command type face

Variable Glaug with melee weapons instead of guns (fights up close - almost did this with the knife in the vf11 gunpod)

Red Variable Glaug with command antenna

etc etc like what they did with regult and vf1.

To me the glaug is just the command type regult.

Now if they did it to the destroids, the qrau, the vf19, vf22, they would have more like gundam.

But I would rather see a whole different mecha series rather than a variation. eg the octos destroid used for water, the non-transforming destroids for ground, the VF for air dogfight etc

So the destroid always look heavy and has that tank motif with guns all over thier body, while the battroid looks skinny to suit the look of a sleek fighter and space craft where the speed is important, and the aliens never STEAL ideas off the good guy but choose to keep thier unique look. (head framed within hood, no necks to the mecha, round bulky looking armor over rectangle/box shape, claws instead of hands, etc)

but for example in shows like gundam seed destiny one of the reason why the gundam changes color (phase shift) is probably just so they can milk the same model and force you to buy different types of the same thing instead of buying one type and its respective backpack weapon. The list of variations might be long but at least we don't get so much recycling like that in macross. This is probably why vf1 is constantly being chosen to milk as a toy due to the different paintschemes of vf1, exploiting the fact that variations of the body are very slight.

Edited December 13, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Graham]

The only disappointment in Macross series was that they didn't have more variants on the VFs and mechs they had.  Compared to Gundam verse, I think Macross comes up a little shy. 

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The huge variety of MS in Gundam is one of the many things I don't like about Gundam series. Economically, it would just be too unrealllistic to produce so many new models of mecha in such a short time frame.

Can you imagine in the real world if even a superpower like the US tried to produce a completely new model Jetfighter or tank every week, they would bankrupt themselves in short order.

I'm sure that MS are not cheap to build or design, but new models seem to appear in nearly every episode of every series. This is great for selling model kits and toys in the real world, but unrealistic in terms of presenting a believable universe.

I actually like that there are fewer models of VF in Macross, with most VFs serving from 10 to 20 years before being replaced. This is far more realistic and believable than Gundam IMO.

Graham

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

The other thing is that gundam tends to have alternate realities(which turn out to suck a lot more than half the time) and also unlike macross, gundam series end up having multiple mecha designers. Kawamori designs nearly all the VF's. Kunio Okawara didn't design every gundam even if he did design most. What gundam lacks in terms of macross is consistency. Well in my opinion at least.

[kalvasflam]

The huge variety of MS in Gundam is one of the many things I don't like about Gundam series. Economically, it would just be too unrealllistic to produce so many new models of mecha in such a short time frame.

Can you imagine in the real world  if even a superpower like the US tried to produce a completely new model Jetfighter or tank every week, they would bankrupt themselves in short order.

I'm sure that MS are not cheap to build or design, but new models seem to appear in nearly every episode of every series. This is great for selling model kits and toys in the real world, but unrealistic in terms of presenting a believable universe.

I actually like that there are fewer models of VF in Macross, with most VFs serving from 10 to 20 years before being replaced. This is far more realistic and believable than Gundam IMO.

Graham

351820[/snapback]

I think you're right to an extent, too many models in Gundam, but in Macross, there weren't enough models. In space war one, you had essentially VF-1, with two armored variants. Then five destroid models. I don't mind it I guess with just Macross, but I thought they should've had a few more models with the rest of the Earth forces.

I'd compare this to the 1980s U.S. armed forces, there were four mainstay fighters at that point. Not to mention a plethora of other bombers, support aircraft, etc. That's why I come down on not quite enough models.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

They probably spent all thier money on sdf1 and super upgrade. Maybe they were totally focused on the giant killing aspect of fighting so vf1 became top priority because you could transform and it was proven design. (used the vf0 in un war)

If they spread thier resources too thin it might make them weaker. Think how hard it is trying to learn three modes of vf1 and if you multiply that by how many different mecha appear in gundam that would be taxing on the human race I would imagine. They mention running out of good pilots in macross zero too. (roy couldn't even beat ivanov and roy calls his wingmates "chicks")

What I would like to have seen was the VF-4 coming in before the end of SW I instead of as a little model kit in the background, just like how they had the VF22S kicking ass in macross 7 at the end.

In gundam they tend to show the latest model at a critical point in the story to show that things get better as the weaknesses of the original models are brought to light. I think of the Super as the answer to the Qrau speed in the episode when the humans are first exposed to the female pilots being able to just fly circles around things and unleash all thier micromissiles at once. The super pack is more than a big jetpack for battroid but it can allow speed advantage for space, and in an atmosphere, not having it won't matter so much since the qrau doesn't have the aerodynamic shape to be a threat to a non-fast pack vf1. (you can just escape the fight by flying away)

What they could have done was show destroid with modular design. (ie like octos) Since the anti un were using them and humans had the transformation theme floating around in thier head when VF0 were made, I would loved to have seen a type of wheeled destroid that had an alternate mode maybe used for SW I. It would be a more expensive version of the old destroids but be considered "superior" for speed reasons.

Edited December 13, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Mr March]

*snip*

I actually like that there are fewer models of VF in Macross, with most VFs serving from 10 to 20 years before being replaced. This is far more realistic and believable than Gundam IMO.

Graham

351820[/snapback]

I think you're right to an extent, too many models in Gundam, but in Macross, there weren't enough models. In space war one, you had essentially VF-1, with two armored variants. Then five destroid models. I don't mind it I guess with just Macross, but I thought they should've had a few more models with the rest of the Earth forces.

I'd compare this to the 1980s U.S. armed forces, there were four mainstay fighters at that point. Not to mention a plethora of other bombers, support aircraft, etc. That's why I come down on not quite enough models.

351878[/snapback]

Space War One was a single conflict, one which lasted only a year (February 2009 to February 2010) and the majority of which involved only a single UN Spacy warship. Something like the Valkyrie would be the only Variable Fighter option within the contraints of such a brief conflict. True research and development takes time. Our suspension of disbelief would have been shattered had a plethora of VF designs been produced and participated in actual combat during SW1.

After SW1, the opportunities to create new VFs would be extremely limited. Post-war Earth was decimated, it's population and industry destroyed on a global scale. There would be shortages in everything from personel, materials, and manufacturing. Despite these problems, in November 2010 they began designing new mecha like the

VF-5000 and the VF-4.

If we're talking more than just VFs, how then is it fair to include all of the craft in the U.S. armed forces (bombers, support craft, etc) without including all the SW1 craft in Macross for comparison? For starters, you would have the VF variants like the VE-1 Elintseeker and the VT-1 Two-Seater Trainer. Then there would be the non-variable fighting craft such as the F-203 Dragon II fighter, the SF-3A Lancer II Space Fighter, the QF-3000E Ghost Fighter Bomber, and the FL-2 Mistral. You would also include things like the ES-11D Cat's Eye Recon craft and the VC-27 Tunny VTOL Transport Craft. The list goes on.

Macross doesn't get into new designs until after SW1 (and thankfully so). The VF-4 Lightning, the VF-11 Thunderbolt, the YF-19/YF-21, and others all come afterwards, when enough time is available to properly introduce such craft. One would also be reminded that since the release of Macross Zero, the VF-0 and SV-51 designs were part of the SW1 era variable fighter index. Like Graham, I too appreciate a more balanced variety of mecha in Macross. Not only does this keep the Macross fiction fresh, it avoids saturation of designs. This prevents a degradation of our suspension of disbelief and stops flooding the toy market with incrementally, but fundamentally unncessary mecha just for the sake of mecha.

[Final Vegeta]

I think Kawamori is a great designer. As for transforming mecha he is certainly unrivaled, and everything else is also very stylish and has a rather believable look (especially the joints. Compare Gundam GP-01 and GP-02 hip attachments to other Gundams). Oviously he has his limits in designing mainly sleek, neat and pointy-footed mecha; he is not the man for bulky retro mecha. All in all though he has had a certain degree of variety.

That is not to say there aren't other great designers out there, but the combination of Kawamori with Miyatake and Itano Ichiro is deadly.

FV

[ulyssesdraco]

I love his work in Armored Core. That's one of the reasons I'm such a devoted fan of the series. It's great how you can mix and match all of the parts and how the mech you end up with just looks right. I think what he did was design several different mechs then tweaked each part so they look good mixed with other parts. Some mechs even look like they should be able to transform.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Are the little armored core gashapon toys any good? I was thinking of getting some.

[UN Spacy]

Sorry to bump but now that we all know Kawamori is working on Masterpiece Starscream I felt this thread needed it.

[Skullsixx]

The man sits on top... cream of the crop, no one can touch him. Kawamori IS the reason I got into anime!

[Phalanx]

He's pretty decent for a mecha designer. His best designs were in Macross, Escaflwone,Gundam, and Armored Core. He didn't do so good for the MD's in Omega Boost.

[Greyryder]

Can't say I've been too impressed with anything he's done since the VF-1. He certainly didn't win any points for mutilating Primes alt mode, either.

[Raptor]

I like the designs from Eureka Seven, too, especially the Nirvash.

[Final Vegeta]

He's pretty decent for a mecha designer. His best designs were in Macross, Escaflwone,Gundam, and Armored Core.

He didn't draw Escaflowne's guymelefs. He is credited only for the initial version of the Alseides, but it was vastly revamped by Yamane. I think he somehow contributed to Escaflowne's transformation sequence, though. I translated a sentence where he was telling Yamane "don't worry, if you will do this it will transform perfectly in a dragon". I think he was refering to dragon mode's neck transformation. Heard that the dragon transformation gimmick was an idea of Kawamori, also.

FV

[Mowe]

Kawamori was the best of his time, and that was back in 1984.

[Zinjo]

The man sits on top... cream of the crop, no one can touch him. Kawamori IS the reason I got into anime!

397305[/snapback]

Well it was superior story telling and animations style that got me into anime.

SDF Macross (through the bastardized Robotech) is what got me "actively involved".

SK is a talented designer, but his gundamizing of the Valks is getting a bit out of hand....

Edited May 8, 2006 by Zinjo

[Noyhauser]

The huge variety of MS in Gundam is one of the many things I don't like about Gundam series. Economically, it would just be too unrealllistic to produce so many new models of mecha in such a short time frame.

Can you imagine in the real world  if even a superpower like the US tried to produce a completely new model Jetfighter or tank every week, they would bankrupt themselves in short order.

I'm sure that MS are not cheap to build or design, but new models seem to appear in nearly every episode of every series. This is great for selling model kits and toys in the real world, but unrealistic in terms of presenting a believable universe.

I actually like that there are fewer models of VF in Macross, with most VFs serving from 10 to 20 years before being replaced. This is far more realistic and believable than Gundam IMO.

Graham

351820[/snapback]

I think you're right to an extent, too many models in Gundam, but in Macross, there weren't enough models. In space war one, you had essentially VF-1, with two armored variants. Then five destroid models. I don't mind it I guess with just Macross, but I thought they should've had a few more models with the rest of the Earth forces.

I'd compare this to the 1980s U.S. armed forces, there were four mainstay fighters at that point. Not to mention a plethora of other bombers, support aircraft, etc. That's why I come down on not quite enough models.

351878[/snapback]

I disagree. The VF-1 in Space war 1 had exactly the right amount of fighters. The destroid designs are all functional, and have commonalities that would have saved large costs on maintenence and purchaes.

The VF-1 comes into service less than two years prior to the war (not knowing what sort of enemy they would face) and then in pressed into service in a wide variety of roles. In truth there are 5 Variants of the VF-1 by the end of the war, all of which based on two chassis (the VF-1A/J/S and the VF-1D)

VF-1D Variants:

Elintseeker

Super Ostrich

VF-1 A/J/D

Super and Strike Variants

Armored VF-1

Really most of these are stop gap measures ons that are nothing but bolton additions, that increase the endurance and firepower of the fighters. Those are realistic measures that could help increase the effectiveness of UN Spacy forces in the field, but given the short duration of the war its not suprising we don't see more designs. The VF-4 is the "known" up and coming replacement (given Hikaru's model) but its gestation is realistic and we don't see it in the series, and it doesn't enter service untill 2012. After that we see a virtual explosion of designs emerge. 2020 to 2035 seems to be the boom time for VF designs (like the 1950s and 60s in the US), as we see over a half dozen fighters emerge in that short span, (VF-9, 11, VA/F 14, 17, VAB-2, Variable/Neo Glaug), only to watch fighter development slow during the 2035~50 time frame with only two major projects (supernova and the VB-6) Thats a realistic time frame.

Gundam on the other hand, specifically Zeon seem able to introduce over a dozen MSs in a space of a year. Countless Zaku Variants, Gouf, Dom/Rick Dom, Gelgoog, Gyan, Kampfer, Zeong, and Galbaldy Alpha. those are just general purpose MSs, and don't include Mobile armors (which there must be a dozen more) and special purpose MSs for underwater use (5 different ones there) and special purpose designs (Mobile suit variations). Is it really believable that a military in the space of two years can come up with over 40 designs, when they had only two designs prior to that time? I don't think so.

[Noyhauser]

The man sits on top... cream of the crop, no one can touch him. Kawamori IS the reason I got into anime!

397305[/snapback]

Well it was superior story telling and animations style that got me into anime.

SDF Macross (through the bastardized Robotech) is what got me "actively involved".

SK is a talented designer, but his gundamizing of the Valks is getting a bit out of hand....

397727[/snapback]

I don't think so at all. I think his fighter designs have fitted coherently. The VF-1 is the first attempt at a variable craft. Its a bit clunky but it gets the job done. The VF-4 is a bit more streamlined, but it too isn't very smooth. The VF-11 is slightly better, and you can see how it links between the VF-1 (which has its same design heritage) and the VF-19 (its replacement). There is a direct trend towards streamlining fighters, as design prowless increase. By the end the VF-21's form is complete stylization, its limbs are more for show than anything else.

I never had a problem with Macross 7 designs either. As graham pointed out, the series brought some of the best designs forward, like the VF-17 and the VF-11 Full armor. And the VF-19S for what it does isn't a bad design either, its a dedicated space fighter, rather like the VF-17. As for the Sound Force stuff, since most of those are one offs of existing designs, designed for a special purpose, I can live with the "faces" as they aren't intended for combat like the mass produced fighters.

[Knight26]

I think that no matter whether or not everyone likes his later designs that SK will always be considered one of the top mecha designers for one reason. He was the first to design and impliment in a show a truly viable and realistic variable mecha design. Let's face it prior to Macross all variable mecha had to employ a level of anime magic that made them complete unrealistic. Macross on the other hand gave us a variable mecha that when looked at you could see how it could work.

[bsu legato]

Can you imagine in the real world  if even a superpower like the US tried to produce a completely new model Jetfighter or tank every week, they would bankrupt themselves in short order.

351820[/snapback]

Oh, you mean like Nazi Germany did?

And not surprisingly, it worked out just as well for them as it did for Zeon.

[Noyhauser]

Can you imagine in the real world  if even a superpower like the US tried to produce a completely new model Jetfighter or tank every week, they would bankrupt themselves in short order.

351820[/snapback]

Oh, you mean like Nazi Germany did?

And not surprisingly, it worked out just as well for them as it did for Zeon.

397789[/snapback]

Even then the comparison isn't apt. Zeon was producing new designs in a matter of weeks after each other... While many of Nazi germany's wonder weapons were either flimsily put together (ME-163/263, Bachem Natter, He-162), essentially variants of existing units(The Jager lines like the Jagpanther), or nothing but paper projects, Zeon was putting out high quality suits that were far superior to their UNT counterparts, like the Gelgoog, Gyan and the Galbaldy, and doing so in spades.

Edited May 8, 2006 by Noyhauser

[Raptor]

What's more amazing is that they did it all in a war that lasted almost exactly 12 months...

Even the Willys Jeep took a few months to design and build (which was a miracle of American engenuity)... and it's a Jeep for Chrissakes. The most over-simplified, under-engineered vehicle you could ever fight a war with.

Assuming you've got enough money and supplies, you can do anything, but only if you've got time to do it in (or at least a MASSIVE workforce, which they really didn't).

[Zinjo]

I think that no matter whether or not everyone likes his later designs that SK will always be considered one of the top mecha designers for one reason.  He was the first to design and impliment in a show a truly viable and realistic variable mecha design.  Let's face it prior to Macross all variable mecha had to employ a level of anime magic that made them complete unrealistic.  Macross on the other hand gave us a variable mecha that when looked at you could see how it could work.

397758[/snapback]

That much I will always give him credit for!

Having the destinction of being the first to do something as remarkable as designing a credible variable vehicle will keep him regarded as a pioneer at the very least.

Whether he is the best is a debate based on personal preferences, much like the debate over whether Mac 7 is worthy of a place in Macross canon or not....

[UN Spacy]

Bump for more replies.

[grebo guru]

I'd say that Kawamori is good, but a bit overrated.

The VF-1 remains the standard by which all other transformables are judged. True. And I LOVE the VF-1!

However, a lot of his other mecha designs "cheat" a bit. Things flatten, etc. I mean, the VF-17 is really cool, but it seems to gain a lot of volume in the transformation to Battroid mode. Also, Kawamori's designs sometimes look a tiny bit unfinished -- sketchy, perhaps. And cluttered. I don't mind busy. But cluttered can bug me.

I'd definitely rate Kawamori higher than Kunio Okawara (who has SUCKED for a long time), but I'm not sure he's as good as Kazutaka Miyatake, and I'm of the opinion he's definitely not as good as Hajime Katoki, Kazumi Fujita, Masamune Shirow, Shinji Aramaki, and Yutaka Izubuchi.

Grebo!

[Torii]

I like Kawamori's designs, but then again, I'm an easy-to please person. My favorite designs by him would have to be the YF-19, VF-11, Terminus 606R, among several others.

Okawara isn't that bad, but I wouldn't exactly say his designs are all that great either... (Yes, Strike Freedom, I'm looking at you.) My favorites of his works would have to be Gundam X Divider, GaoFighGar, Genesic GaoGaiGar, and the Gundam Astray Blue Frame Second L, among some others I can't think of off the top of my head.

I like Hajime Katoki's designs quite a bit as well, my favorite design from him definitely being the Hückebien Mk-III.

But yeah, in general, I'm a rather easy guy to please. Kawamori, Katoki, and Okawara all make a number of designs I like quite a bit.

[grebo guru]

GaoFighGar = Kazumi Fujita.

Gundam Astray Blue Frame Second L = BEE-Craft (Junichi Akutsu, I think; definitely one of the Artmic alumni)

Genesic Gaogaigar = not sure that's Okawara either...

Okawara isn't that bad, but I wouldn't exactly say his designs are all that great either... (Yes, Strike Freedom, I'm looking at you.) My favorites of his works would have to be Gundam X Divider, GaoFighGar, Genesic GaoGaiGar, and the Gundam Astray Blue Frame Second L, among some others I can't think of off the top of my head.

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

I second that 'cluttered' comment.

I wished he made the mecha 'cleaner'. Too many fins and bumps sometimes.