Yamato- The Movie

[David Hingtgen]

Iowas were armored for 16/50, that is what they thought Yamato had, as well as being equal to the Iowa's own guns.

I still can't find anything about carrier escort etc being considered into the design---it's much more like "well since we're going to be getting a 33kt BB, we might as well think up some tactics on how to use that extra speed---starting with integrating them into carrier task forces". In addition to IJN BB speed, sheer size of the Pacific/supply lines was a reason for the design of the Iowa class. The Philippines were considered the most likely place to be attacked, a long way from Pearl Harbor based ships--thus they wanted ships that could get there quickly.

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

Iowas were armored for 16/50, that is what they thought Yamato had, as well as being equal to the Iowa's own guns. 

347863[/snapback]

Eh? I might be having a serious memory lapse but every source I read points to 16/45 at predicted engagement ranges IIRC.

I thought only Montana was designed to be resistant against 16/50s.

[Major Johnathan]

By 1944, clearly Japan was doomed, no arguement from me, even 1943. But 1942 was a window of opportunity. I wonder just how much America could have endured, after PH, there was considerable panic all along the west coast, any moment they expected Japanese invasion fleets.

Consider the tally up till Midway, first the crushing blow(on many levels) at Pearl Harbor, the sinking of the British capital ships Prince of Whales and Repulse, the obliteration of the American-British-Dutch and Australian fleet, the fall of Guam, Singapore, Wake ,the Phillipines, the vast Dutch East Indies, Burma etc. etc.

Japanese Subs occaisionally shelling the West Coast went a long way to prolonging the fear of an invasion.

Under that recent history, had Japan reversed Midway and sunk the 3 US carriers for little loss in exchange, and taken Midway it's self, Hawaii would be in immense danger. Australia would 'wither on the vine', as the Allies did to so many Japanese held islands. At the very least, the U.S. would be forced to send vast numbers of planes, troops and ships that were intended for the European theater to the West Coast and Panama. Could the Brits and Soviets have held on without all that U.S. lend-lease material?

Obviously this is all conjecture, but my take on it is the American people would demand Japan be treated as the primary threat, Britain and the Soviets would have to fend for themselves largely. Germany might well have won had there not been such huge quantities of U.S. equipment flooding the other allies.

My conclusion in this alternate reality; the world would be split into 3 super power spheres, The U.S., the Third Reich and Imperial Japan.

[maxjenius81]

Provided the Amiercan Public did not wuss out and demand a peace with Japan, the Japanese could not win the War. Even if they had totally won the Battle of Midway (that is lost no carriers and the USN lost all 3) by mid 1943 the USN would be back to CV parity and by 1944 would be up by 3 and by the end of 44 would be up by 5 CVs able to hold twice the aircraft. Unless the Japanese began to somehow hit US industrial might they had no chance as long as the American Public stayed the course.

The war would no doubt have gone on much longer as the US would have lost the Solomons, but it would not be lost by a long shot.

[kalvasflam]

By 1944, clearly Japan was doomed, no arguement from me, even 1943. But 1942 was a window of opportunity. I wonder just how much America could have endured, after PH, there was considerable panic all along the west coast, any moment they expected Japanese invasion fleets.

I think the difference is that the America back then is nothing like the America now. They would've kept on fighting even if Hawaii was lost. The only reason the Japanese thought that the U.S. might fold would be because the way WWI ended. The U.S. became very isolationist after the war, and the Japanese must have thought that as a sign of weakness.

The only other reason for the U.S. to come to the bargaining table is if they wanted to absolutely crush Hitler first. No doubt through mid 1942, the Japanese was doing exactly as Yamamoto predicted, running wild. But it didn't last long after.

  Under that recent history, had Japan reversed Midway and sunk the 3 US carriers for little loss in exchange, and taken Midway it's self, Hawaii would be in immense danger. Australia would 'wither on the vine', as the Allies did to so many Japanese held islands. At the very least, the U.S. would be forced to send vast numbers of planes, troops and ships that were intended for the European theater to the West Coast and Panama. Could the Brits and Soviets have held on without all that U.S. lend-lease material?

I also think that in the grand scheme of things, Japan was at most a junior partner in the Axis, as opposed to the Italians, who were essentially the bitch in the Axis powers. As for the Brits, by the end 1941 they essentially had turned the tide. The Nazis were too busy pummeling the Commies, and the only real threat to Britian was U-boats, and even on that front the Brits were starting to win. The Brits were porbably most threatened in 1940. But effective convoys made at least part of the Atlantic crossing safer.

As for the Russkies, they had two great allies on their side, the Russian winter, and the little corporal in Germany who was busy playing field marshall. I think Europe was a very near thing. Lend/lease notwithstanding, the Russians held out through pure tenacity. The Germans came very close in 1941, if it wasn't for the little corporal, I think they could've taken Moscow in 1941. (the only people that managed to do even close to that time frame were the Mongols, and they came from the opposite direction, the real long way.)

So, worst case scenario, the Germans knock the Russians out of the war, but still doesn't have what it takes to take Britian.

  My conclusion in this alternate reality; the world would be split into 3 super power spheres, The U.S., the Third Reich and Imperial Japan.

I think with your premise. The alternate reality works only if the isolationists take over completely. Pearl Harbor ensured that will never happen. Hey, even the Iraq war was supported by a majority 18 months after 9/11. If the U.S. had been reversed in the Pacific, they may well have taken the eye off Germany, but I think the under no circumstances is there an Imperial Japan at the end of 1947. I say 1947 because I'm assuming the IJN keeps winning thorugh 1943, it'll take the U.S. that long to regain the balance militarily with conventional arms. Then starting the in 1946. They start nuking strategic targets in Japan. And then, the Japanese military collapses as its central authority is wiped out. Think of the blow if Tokyo got nuked, and the emperor was killed. Then depending on who is in charge, Japan gets taken over or bombed into oblivion. (that of course means, no anime for any of us. )

Many people have argued that the atom bombs were cruel, but historically, if Japan was assaulted with conventional forces, the death toll becomes even more catastrophic. Or worse, if the Americans don't want to shed their own blood, they just blockade Japan, bomb its industry and literally starve the home islands into surrender. An effective blockade with subs and continual bombardment of Japanese industry would have probably brought famine to the home islands in 1947 or so. Then a year or two after that, the U.S. could have literally strolled onto Japan, wipe out the few remaining stragglers, and declared it the 49th state at that point.

[reddsun1]

I don't think the key Japanese planners [Yamamoto in particular] ever had any notions of invading mainland USA. IIRC, his plans were based around eliminating the US Navy as a threat to Japanese expansion in the Pacific, no more. I don't think the Japanese had any desire for war with America in particular [at least, before the military extremists took power with their "8 corners of the world under one roof" doctrine]; they just realized that their plans of expansion and procuring oil [yes, the war in the Pacific was primarily about OIL] and industrial raw materials would inevitably put them at odds with the US, the other big kid on the block in the Pacific. The military leaders decided they would take the initiative and eliminate the US before they could stop their plans of expansion, thus calling on Yamamoto to make plans for combatting/eliminating the US Navy.

Bear in mind, Yamamoto was educated in America [was it Harvard?], so he had some familiarity of American culture and its industrial capabilities; he knew Japan couldn't match the USA's military/industrial production capacities in a long, drawn out conflict. If memory serves correct, when he was asked of his opinion on Japan's military prospects--well before Pearl Harbor--he said something to the effect [and I paraphrase] "I can assure we will run amok for 6 months to a year, but I can make no guarantees after that..."

As far as prospects of Japan's winning/prolonging the war if they'd shifted some priorities in weapons deployment? Doubtful. Remember, even before the Battle of Midway, US code breakers had deciphered the Japanese military codes, hence Yamamoto's plans unfolding at Midway. They'd pretty much know all their major moves anyway. Yamamoto's strategy hinged on the element of surprise, and luring the US carriers into a decisive trap at Midway. He had no contingencies for the US knowing that the fleet in the Aleutians was a decoy, the US carriers already being on hand at Midway, etc., etc.

Oh yeah, I'd like to see them refurbish the Yamato and launch it into space at the end of the movie, too.

[Zentrandude]

If the japanese wanted to hurt the US, they could destroy the panamal canal. Would take much longer to send newly built ships around south america to reach the pacific.

also reason why us battle ships was smaller. the battleships barely fit in the canals.