Superman Returns

[valkyrie312]

Saw it last night at the pre-showing (10 pm in Houston) and I thought it was quite good. It's hard to do wither a re-make or a continuation due to the risk of hardcore fans of the original series criticisms. Much like the new Battlestar series has critics that are displeased with plot/character changes, Superman Returns has many of those same obstacles to overcome. That being said, it was well done and at least faithful to what the original movies had in mind.

[mpchi]

I think Spacey is a good Lex too. But would be better if they didn't give away so many of his punch lines in those trailers. I like the pacing too. Seems not much action at the beginning, but not to a point its dragging, and made the action sequences all that much more dramatic when they come. I agreed that it may not be the best superhero movie ever, but is a very good one. And I'm not even a big superman fan. Can't even remember much of the early movies. Haven't watch them like almost 2 decades, could be more. And yeah, Superman needs a more powerful villain next time.

[Hikuro]

I managed to see a First Look at it, Spacey seemed pretty happy with his performance and was even making a crack "Yeah Lex has got his world domination plans set, and then superman catches on to him pretty quickly......................dammit"

I'll see it tomorrow maybe, it was on my list to do today, but my gal and I had to spend some quality time and she can't go to the movies with me so I have to go alone.

[Penguin]

Well, I just got back from seeing the flick, and here are a few thoughts. Overall, my feelings are mixed. I didn't dislike it, but had some issues...

Heavy: I found the film weighed down by its own gravitas. I've got nothing against a serious tone, but I felt it was almost unrelenting, without any lighter breaks aside from a brief laugh or two. The overall atmosphere of the film is grey, both visually and emotionally.

Good Routh, Bad Superman: I thought Routh did a great job. I'll toss in the obligatory Chris Reeve comparison, and say that some times the voice was almost spot on. That being said, it was hard to find a personality in Superman. Clark is the clown, Superman the calm paragon... is there a real person in there somewhere? The character never seemed to emote with any passion. I prefer the modern take on Superman in comics and shows like "Lois and Clark" and "Smallville", where Clark is a whole person. Superman is the costumed persona. The old take of Clark as a buffoonish alter ego is outdated. Why does anyone like, care about, or even notice the Clark-in-Metropolis character?

Luthor... what for?: The whole plot with Luthor seemed like a tack-on to provide a fight somewhere. Luthor from the time of the first movie was caught in the middle between the mad scientist he started out as, and before the driven billionaire he would become. Continuing the character in this vein results in a weak and laughable motivation in a film that is otherwise heavy. He ends up like a puzzle piece that just won't fit. As a result, the conflict doesn't rise from the story in a smooth and cohesive manner.

Dude, where's my climax?: The leaden tone of the film never seems to rise or fall. There's an attempted action climax, but any elation is immediately snuffed by another heavy occurrence. I never felt a sense of triumph or victory. And then the film just carries on way too long after... denouements are great, but this is too much.

We don't need Superman: The world of the movie is one in which there is only Superman. There aren't any Superman-sized threats that really make him necessary (Luthor is an aberrant blip). In his absence, you can suppose that some people died that might have been saved... but the world kept on going, just like ours. It's a world in which he's nice to have around, but not really required.

In the end, I guess I would have preferred a reboot or something. Continuing story and character elements that are over 20 years old seems retro in all the wrong ways. This is a vision of Superman's world that the we've moved past. It tries to start in media res, but it's clear that while the backstory is inspired by the first two films, there are plenty of implied differences, so we don't have a good idea of what has gone before. For a film wrapped around Superman and Lois' history before he left, not having a clear notion of what that was leaves the viewer unsure about the basis for all this angst.

[Graham]

Damn, the Hong Kong release has been rescheduled to 13 July.

Saw the CNN news story this morning, about how the phrase "Truth, Justice & the American way" is not used in the movie, instead, it's been changed to "Truth, Justice......and all that stuff". LOL!

Graham

[Guppy]

interesting.. up til now I thought this WAS a reboot of the Supes franchise. I haven't been paying attention to this movie at all.

Also, they had Superman 3 on TV a few nights ago. I couldn't look away.. it was awful. I haven't seen it since I was a kid at the cinemas.. it's just a 2 hour Richard Pryor slapstick vehicle. It seems it was only made cos he was a hot item at the time.

[EXO]

I agree with penguin 100%.

[Limbo]

The thing I hate about superhero movies is always the nonsensical plots... They claim to be making a realistic movie, but there is always a silly overcomplicated plot that doen't make any sense.

Xmen - Let's locate and kidnap a mutant that can absorb powers then we put thias mutant inside a mutant-making machine hidden inside the statue of liberty and then we transform all the world leaders in mutants... that will do it..

Batman Begins - Let's exterminate a whole city not by using bombs or biological warfare, like poisoning the water... that would be too easy. Instead let's mix stuff on the water for months, then we steal a huge microwave from a cargo ship and then we strap it inside a monorail going around the city to vaporize the water and release the gas everywhere in the city... YES!!! That's it

I've seen better plots from Pinky and the Brain.

o___O

[bsu legato]

Would a movie about superheroes foiling bank robberies be more to your liking? Or perhaps a superhero romcom? Ooh, I know! A superhero period drama!

[Limbo]

Would a movie about superheroes foiling bank robberies be more to your liking? Or perhaps a superhero romcom? Ooh, I know! A superhero period drama!

412396[/snapback]

Actually, YES... I would love to see the bank robery sequence from Dark Knight Returns with batman smashing average thugs. The first spiderman had a deleted sequence of Spidey busting a robery and busting the getaway helicopter in this huge spider web in between the Trade Centers. It was just awesome. Actually now that I think, Spiderman movies are the only ones where the villains get lose to a accomplishable personal goal but are defeated by insanity instead of stupidity. I love villans, I just want some half decent plot that can actually work.

And as far as I'm concerned, this new Superman movie is pretty much your superhero period drama...

[eugimon]

Would a movie about superheroes foiling bank robberies be more to your liking? Or perhaps a superhero romcom? Ooh, I know! A superhero period drama!

412396[/snapback]

Actually, YES... I would love to see the bank robery sequence from Dark Knight Returns with batman smashing average thugs. The first spiderman had a deleted sequence of Spidey busting a robery and busting the getaway helicopter in this huge spider web in between the Trade Centers. It was just awesome. Actually now that I think, Spiderman movies are the only ones where the villains get lose to a accomplishable personal goal but are defeated by insanity instead of stupidity. I love villans, I just want some half decent plot that can actually work.

And as far as I'm concerned, this new Superman movie is pretty much your superhero period drama...

412417[/snapback]

first superman movie has supes catching thugs in the beginning.

Batman begins has him beating up standard thugs, and ras al gul describes your personal goal/defeated by insanity bit.

X-men 2 has the same type of villain with striker.

Batman also has bts beating up regular thugs.

daredevil has him beating up average thugs, and kingpin describes the same type of villain.

frankly, watching some super powered being beat up on low level thugs is amusing but hardly worth two hours of my life and ten dollars... this is the basic steven segal formula... look at me, I viciously beat the snot out of yokels, again and again, watch my frilly leather jacket twirl in the wind.

[Mallet21]

I'm not sure why they couldn't have Hackman reprise his role as Luthor ?? With a shaved head I don't think his age would be all the noticeable.

[Limbo]

Missing the point, dude... All I'm saying is there must be a better plan than microwave sewers or plant death rays on a major landmark to destroy humans. That's all.

first superman movie has supes catching thugs in the beginning.

Batman begins has him beating up standard thugs, and ras al gul describes your personal goal/defeated by insanity bit.

X-men 2 has the same type of villain with striker.

Batman also has bts beating up regular thugs.

daredevil has him beating up average thugs, and kingpin describes the same type of villain.

frankly, watching some super powered being beat up on low level thugs is amusing but hardly worth two hours of my life and ten dollars... this is the basic steven segal formula... look at me, I viciously beat the snot out of yokels, again and again, watch my frilly leather jacket twirl in the wind.

412423[/snapback]

[bsu legato]

But those are just individual scenes, not the plot of the movie. Do you really think anyone wants to sit in a theater for two hours to see if Spideman can stop the jewel theives?

[eugimon]

Missing the point, dude... All I'm saying is there must be a better plan than microwave sewers or plant death rays on a major landmark to destroy humans. That's all.

first superman movie has supes catching thugs in the beginning.

Batman begins has him beating up standard thugs, and ras al gul describes your personal goal/defeated by insanity bit.

X-men 2 has the same type of villain with striker.

Batman also has bts beating up regular thugs.

daredevil has him beating up average thugs, and kingpin describes the same type of villain.

frankly, watching some super powered being beat up on low level thugs is amusing but hardly worth two hours of my life and ten dollars... this is the basic steven segal formula... look at me, I viciously beat the snot out of yokels, again and again, watch my frilly leather jacket twirl in the wind.

412423[/snapback]

412425[/snapback]

Dude... missing the point about these movies. If you're watching some guy who dresses up like a big BAT, or fires lasers out of his eyes or gets bitten by a genetically mutated spider and gets super powers and you're saying the weapon of choice is unbelievable, than you should just go back to watching pride and prejudice or whatever it is you like...

That's pretty much like me going in to go see Much Ado About Nothing and complaining that there were no space aliens.

Wrong genre, if you don't like it, you don't like it, but big lavish plots with big super doomsday weapons are pretty much par for course.

[UN_MARINE]

well, you have to consider that these are super hero movies too

and these are "super villains"

it's the outrageous or non-sensical act of villainy which defines the super villain

i mean, a guy wouldn't be much of a super villain if he just bombed a city in the usual way, it'd just make him your average criminal. and it wouldn't be much fun if, say, magneto just did a regular drive-by shooting wouldn't it ?

although... if he USED his powers...

[ly000001]

Would a movie about superheroes foiling bank robberies be more to your liking? Or perhaps a superhero romcom? Ooh, I know! A superhero period drama!

412396[/snapback]

I know those suggestions were meant sarcastically, but there's an instance of the second one coming out: http://www.apple.com/trailers/fox/mysuperexgirlfriend/

[Penguin]

World-shattering apocalyptic plots must unfold as the genre demands. In horror movies, they have to be simple, unstoppable, and summed up in the first 15 minutes of the film if not before the opening credits (e.g. any zombie movie a la "28 Days Later" or "Dawn of the Dead"). In science fiction they need to leave the world in a state that exemplifies and amplifies the writer's theme du jour. In action movies (e.g. James Bond, superheroes), they often must be intricate and require several carefully planned steps, all so that the hero or heroes have enough time to a) put the pieces together to discover the plot, and b) stop it in the nick of time while the inexorable count down counts down.

That being said, I can understand Limbo's point of view. Sometimes, writers reach awful far to try and create the necessary intricacies. You're left at the end thinking "isn't there an easier way to destroy New York?" Of course, the villain's goals are never as blase as plain ol' destruction.

I do prefer it when villanous schemes arise from a more personal place for the villain. The result is that the viewer gets more involved in the underlying motivation for the villain, and you can dispense with the multi-stage grand scheme. "Spider-Man 2" and "X2" I see as good examples. There wasn't anything deeply intricate (gotta find a synonym.. I'm getting tired of using that word) about the villains' operations, but there were serious ramifications if they weren't foiled (destruction of New York, mutant genocide).

While I loved "Batman Begins", Ra's whole plan about driving Gotham mad in order to shock the world into righting itself seems dubious at best, ludicrous at worst. The examples he had given earlier about how the League of Shadows had altered the course of history were much more dramatic. In trying to bring it all down to Gotham and a plot that could be foiled by a couple of people (Batman and Gordon), the writers invented a scheme that is sorta goofy. As well, Ra's whole motivation is lofty and philosophically based, with the result that the viewer can only appreciate it on an intellectual level. Compare that to Otto Octavious' injured ego and pride and drive to see his dream come true (taken to an insane extreme mind you), or Stryker's horror at what his son had done to him and his wife and his extension of that into a hatred of all mutants. The latter examples are all emotions we can empathize with, on some level, and so we get more involved and there's no need for sillier levels of detail.

No one expects a grand action film to feature 120 minutes of Superman punching thugs beneath his power level or James Bond foiling mail fraud, but it is nicer when the grand evil schemes don't require so much suspension of disbelief.

Edited June 29, 2006 by Penguin

[bsu legato]

I'd like to see a comic book movie where the hero resolves the problems through discussion and mediation, not fisticuffs. I mean, who picks up a bus and throws it at people anyway?

[LORD KUNGFU]

I mean, who picks up a bus and throws it at people anyway?

412456[/snapback]

I would if I could.

[eugimon]

I'd like to see a comic book movie where the hero resolves the problems through discussion and mediation, not fisticuffs. I mean, who picks up a bus and throws it at people anyway?

412456[/snapback]

seriously...and capes? I mean, how are those tacticle?

[LORD KUNGFU]

I'd like to see a comic book movie where the hero resolves the problems through discussion and mediation, not fisticuffs. I mean, who picks up a bus and throws it at people anyway?

412456[/snapback]

seriously...and capes? I mean, how are those tacticle?

412465[/snapback]

capes would be tacticle if they were bulletproof. Or if they were supposed to camoflauge you somehow. I can not think of any other reason for a cape except to be fruity.

OT: these comic book movies are sucking hard. Except x-men. I think society is outgrowing these type of movies. I would rather see a normal guy that just goes buck wild like in the movie (Falling Down). Instead of Smallville, I would rather watch the UFC. Its more fun to watch small, unintimidating guys beat the crap out of hulking mean looking dudes.

[Sundown]

OT: these comic book movies are sucking hard. Except x-men. I think society is outgrowing these type of movies.

I hardly think society is outgrowing these movies when producers are making them one after another and when they do remain very profitable. We've seen more in a short period than we have for decades. What I do see are a lot of bad movies, but the fact that they still do sell means that the genre is far from dead. Some of us might be outgrowing these, however, and it's ironic that I find the X-Men movies (or rather the first one... I haven't seen the rest yet) among the more simplistic and kiddy-ish.

[Isamu Atreides 86]

a few thoughts.

1. It should have been Tom Welling. I've seen Smallville episodes that were better than this movie. Chris Reeves was GREAT. But lets move on. New movies, new Superman identity. The movie was not bad, but it didn't kick ass like Batman Begins did either.

2. The Kitsch sucked. Singer needed to move past it. This movie did nothing to make its own film. It piggybacked a 20 year old movie and tried to make it the basis. Nolan did the right thing rebooting the movies.

3. Clark could have died. No one cared or asked, hey where's Kent?

4. Richard Perry and Lois Lane got more character development than the main character.

5. Lex sucked. if you're gonna make a crappy Villain from the Supes Rogues Gallery, make is Toyman or Parasite or someone crappy like that. Lex could have been replaced by Bad Guy Leader #1. They wasted Spacey on this thing.

6. Ma Kent is apparently 80. So She had Clark when, in her 50's? Wow. How is that not suspicious. The ages of Clark's parents in Smallville make much more sense.

7. See Below Spoiler

SPOILER

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7. A FREAKING KID? What the hell is this? wow.

8. He can't put up a fight against Luther and Kumar, but Supes can fly a mountain of Kryptonite into space? With Kryptonite in him?

Again, an Okay movie, but it seems that they didn't try to think original too hard on the script, the movie relies too much on the old ones, and some of the actions of the characters are really unbelievable.

Edited June 30, 2006 by Isamu Atreides 86

[Dangard Ace]

8. He can't put up a fight against Luther and Kumar, but Supes can fly a mountain of Kryptonite into space? With Kryptonite in him?

Supes vs Lex and Kumar go to white castle:

Island has the properties of Kryptonite. Superman becomes as weak as a normal man when subjected to kryptonite. Of course Kumar can kick his ass then.

Supes vs

a)flying a mountain of kryptonite to space:

And this is why Supes flew into magma, under the bedrock of the island. He created a natural barrier between himself and the island kryptonite. It's when he's in space that the kyptonite starts getting through the bedrock and near him.

b)...krytonite in him:

are we watching the same movie? Lois yanked out and tossed away the fragment of kryptonite before Supes did the above.

[Sundown]

It should have been Tom Welling.

I just can't buy Tom Welling as Superman. He's too pouty, jowly and metro and his facial structure bears little resemblance to the Superman of the comics or Supes as I picture him, but I guess he works well enough for Metro-Superboy on the WB. I feel surprisingly more at home with Routh. My main complaint about him is that his Clark Kent was goofy and meek without being personable, but I put a lot of the blame on the writers, who didn't give Clark many lines at all.

[Sundown]

are we watching the same movie?  Lois yanked out and tossed away the fragment of kryptonite before Supes did the above.

412571[/snapback]

There was that tiny shard of kryptonite that they extracted from him in the hospital scene. I'm guessing small sliver broke off and was still embedded in the wound.

[chrono]

OT: these comic book movies are sucking hard. Except x-men. I think society is outgrowing these type of movies. I would rather see a normal guy that just goes buck wild like in the movie (Falling Down). Instead of Smallville, I would rather watch the UFC. Its more fun to watch small, unintimidating guys beat the crap out of hulking mean looking dudes.

All 3 X-Men sucked to various degrees that even non cb fans would agree too!

Any how, Society isn't outgrowing these types of movies because that their core it's about a person overcoming a difficult situation. What 'we' have outgrown is the regression of hollywood writing. Hollywood has been solely about flash and splash for over 30-50 years now and it keeps getting worse every year because 'we' culturally don't care beyond being entertained.

Singer's a hack, but it'll be 2-3 more movies before people start to understand that he's just a slightly higher level of director then Anderson or U.

[Dangard Ace]

are we watching the same movie?  Lois yanked out and tossed away the fragment of kryptonite before Supes did the above.

412571[/snapback]

There was that tiny shard of kryptonite that they extracted from him in the hospital scene. I'm guessing small sliver broke off and was still embedded in the wound.

412573[/snapback]

Oh yeah, forgot about that.

[Isamu Atreides 86]

8. He can't put up a fight against Luther and Kumar, but Supes can fly a mountain of Kryptonite into space? With Kryptonite in him?

Supes vs Lex and Kumar go to white castle:

Island has the properties of Kryptonite. Superman becomes as weak as a normal man when subjected to kryptonite. Of course Kumar can kick his ass then.

Supes vs

a)flying a mountain of kryptonite to space:

And this is why Supes flew into magma, under the bedrock of the island. He created a natural barrier between himself and the island kryptonite. It's when he's in space that the kyptonite starts getting through the bedrock and near him.

b)...krytonite in him:

are we watching the same movie? Lois yanked out and tossed away the fragment of kryptonite before Supes did the above.

412571[/snapback]

A. When Supes is taking the mountain into orbit, that stuff starts falling off. And he still kept going!! The only thing that could have kept supes safe was lead, and from the very beginning of te lift, stuff is falling off the kryptonite mountain, to where it is almost touching him.

B. When he gets to the Hospital, the Doctors take a small piece of Kryptonite out of him. You see them put it in a peitri dish.

[Isamu Atreides 86]

It should have been Tom Welling.

I just can't buy Tom Welling as Superman. He's too pouty, jowly and metro and his facial structure bears little resemblance to the Superman of the comics or Supes as I picture him, but I guess he works well enough for Metro-Superboy on the WB. I feel surprisingly more at home with Routh. My main complaint about him is that his Clark Kent was goofy and meek without being personable, but I put a lot of the blame on the writers, who didn't give Clark many lines at all.

412572[/snapback]

I can agree with that, but it seemed that Routh didn't do anything to make the character his. He was impersonating Chris Reeves playing Superman, where as Welling seems to be actually Playing Superman.

[Dangard Ace]

A. When Supes is taking the mountain into orbit, that stuff starts falling off. And he still kept going!! The only thing that could have kept supes safe was lead, and from the very beginning of te lift, stuff is falling off the kryptonite mountain, to where it is almost touching him.

B. When he gets to the Hospital, the Doctors take a small piece of Kryptonite out of him. You see them put it in a peitri dish.

412590[/snapback]

Like I said, Supes has got lots of bedrock(IIRC bedrock does have lead content in it) between himself and the kryptonite. Is he touching or anywhere near the kryptonite? No. He's smack dab in the center underneath the island with who knows how many meters of rock above hiim. The only thing falling around him is rock. Kryptonite is falling off at the edges of the mountain not at the center. The only time Kryptonite is shown penetrating the bedrock near the center is when he is almost in orbit.

As for the small piece of kryptonite in his wound, eh, Singer used some creative license there.

Probably going along with Donners version of Superman where a large chuck of Kryptonite around Supes neck didn't kill him or render him unconcious just made him weak(treading water in Superman 1). Going by that logic a small sliver was probably only slowly sapping away his recharged energy from the sun but not robbing him of his power completely. Case in point he survives the plummet back to earth and the needle doesn't penetrate his skin.

[bsu legato]

All 3 X-Men sucked to various degrees that even non cb fans would agree too!

412574[/snapback]

Hardly.

[Mephistopheles]

Watching Superman Returns was like watching a fight between God and a cripple. They really need to give him another villian. He fights Lex Luthor in virtually every movie. Where is Bizarro or Darksied when you need him?

Edited June 30, 2006 by Mephistopheles

[Mephistopheles]

The thing I hate about superhero movies is always the nonsensical plots... They claim to be making a realistic movie, but there is always a silly overcomplicated plot that doen't make any sense.

Xmen - Let's locate and kidnap a mutant that can absorb powers then we put thias mutant inside a mutant-making machine hidden inside the statue of liberty and then we transform all the world leaders in mutants... that will do it..

Batman Begins - Let's exterminate a whole city not by using bombs or biological warfare, like poisoning the water... that would be too easy. Instead let's mix stuff on the water for months, then we steal a huge microwave from a cargo ship and then we strap it inside a monorail going around the city to vaporize the water and release the gas everywhere in the city... YES!!! That's it

I've seen better plots from Pinky and the Brain.

o___O

412389[/snapback]

Like the one where they change the instructions on all shampoo bottles to say "rinse and repeat" so that they could conquer the world while everyone was busy endlessly washing their hair the shower? The sad part is that seems like a more thoughtout plan than the ones some of these 'masterminds' come up with.

Edited June 30, 2006 by Mephistopheles