Terminator: The TV series?!

[Stamen0083]

Meh, not really.. you're thinking of rules laid down by special relativity... where there is only one universe and one timeline...

344146[/snapback]

Urr? Please explain. I admit my knowledge of special relativity is restricted to high school physics, but this is the first time I hear that special relativity restricts us to one universe and one timeline.

[eugimon]

Meh, not really.. you're thinking of rules laid down by special relativity... where there is only one universe and one timeline...

344146[/snapback]

Urr? Please explain. I admit my knowledge of special relativity is restricted to high school physics, but this is the first time I hear that special relativity restricts us to one universe and one timeline.

344150[/snapback]

Sure... real general like here it goes:

special relativity describes one universe with one timeline... Time travel may be possible but it requires the creation of a time machine... something that will open a hole in the fabric of space/time and keep it open.... you can thus only travel to point in time which there already exists a time machine to receive you.

Time and events are also fixed... so no paradoxes... you can't travel back in time to kill your parents because you didn't.

Then there's Quantum Theory.. and this is a giant ball of yarn... basically this sets up the notion that for every possible choice/chance whatever, there exists a universe where it happened...

The terminator world follows Quantum theory more or less....

Here's a fun site that describes it far better than I could:

http://www.iit.edu/~bosabri/time.html

[JB0]

Meh.

[big F]

ok I prefer to look at it like this. Your Traveling down a road. Now weather you choose to run, walk, crawl, ride on a pogostick, drive a car or a truck, go fast or slow you will get to the end of the road. The timeline is like that. In T1 we are told that the machines will take over the world and that in 1997 the supercomputer Skynet will start a nuclear war which will wipe out most of the humans. In T2 we are told how a computer company finds a crushed robot in one of their factorys and develops its technology to eventually build Skynet. along comes the second T800 telling the connors this and filling in story for us. So they kill the T1000 and get rid of Cyberdynes facilitys junk the T800 and the arm and chip. So now the connors think game over lets live happilly ever after Sarah is still paranoid though and keeps worrying about the future.

Now lets say Cyberdyne is a big company If they are developing the Neural net proccessor then its obviously going to get used by the military they are the only organisation that would have the money to fund something this expensive. so the Military already have thier fingers in the pie. Blowing up the LA offices of Cyberdyne is not going to kill off Cyberdyne the military would have prototypes to play with and the data would be backed up serveral times and stored in different places. Those of you who work in I.T will know how OTT some companies can be about data back ups. Why back it up once and store it off site in a fire proof safe when you can back it up four times and store at four different places (I worked for one like that).

In T3 we are told that Sarah lived long enough to see that Judgement Day does not happen. So killing Dyson and distroying the facilities has merely slowed down the future events as we know that it just happens a few years later in T3.

So my point is the journey starts in a car and half way down the road they get out and walk the rest of the way. They still get to the end of the road.

How bout this for an idea John is somehow responsible for various events that help the story along to its T3 point. Being in the right place at the right time or computer hacking this or that etc, which in ways plot writers can only think out helps the timeline. to it enevitable T3 conclusion.

What if Skynet knows that it must send the first T800 and that it will fail. It knows that the first T800 is in effect it`s own ancestor/creator/mother or what ever you want to call it, and that this Terminator must be there. What if after the failure in T2 other Teminators are sent back to infiltrate the Cyberdyne systems and the goverment to help along the creation of the Neural Net processors etc. After all we know that it couldnt trace John Connor as he went off the grid, so wht if it just diverts it interests in some sort of attempt to hurry up the timeline.

In T1 they are refered to as infiltration units. Dosnt mean they have to kill they could just gather info etc.

What if in the post T3 future that other T units are sent to help build skynet up while the Humans are too busy dieing of radiation sickness to notice.

Skynet`s computers will also suffer in a world half nuked to death. It may have connections to powerstations and factories etc but it would need help to establish itsself properly.

Oh yeah and the T1000 is a poly mimetic alloy so it can mimic skin at an atomic level hence the ability to pass through the time travel porthole.

Edited November 11, 2005 by big F

[Black Valkyrie]

It seems all a trend cuz of Smallville, Birds of Prey and the upcoming SW series.

[JB0]

But didn't Birds of Prey bomb?

[Stamen0083]

special relativity describes one universe with one timeline... Time travel may be possible but it requires the creation of a time machine... something that will open a hole in the fabric of space/time and keep it open.... you can thus only travel to point in time which there already exists a time machine to receive you.

Time and events are also fixed... so no paradoxes... you can't travel back in time to kill your parents because you didn't.

That's news to me.

The special relativity I learned in physics was that as the speed of travel approaches the speed of light, time, mass, and dimensions become distorted. Mass approaches infinity, length approaches zero, and time stands still. It places the universal speed limit at the speed of light. It also makes Newtonian physics useful only for everyday life at speeds much less than the speed of light and low precision.

General relativity says that accelerating reference frame and gravitic reference frame are the same. Within a closed box, one would not know if the box is accelerating in empty space free of gravity or if the box is standing still inside a gravity well. There is a thought experiment that can be done to show that space is curved. Also, a particle not only exists in three dimensional space but also a time as well. A particle's position can be described best as a physical location (x, y, z) and time t.

What I take this to mean for time travel is that with time dilation, travelling into the future is possible but not into the past. Also, with sufficient mass, space can be made to curve in on itself so that a particle may occupy two places at the same time.

Then there's Quantum Theory.. and this is a giant ball of yarn... basically this sets up the notion that for every possible choice/chance whatever, there exists a universe where it happened...

The terminator world follows Quantum theory more or less....

Here's a fun site that describes it far better than I could:

http://www.iit.edu/~bosabri/time.html

344160[/snapback]

The multi-verse idea. I've heard of this before. But this is the first time I've seen the theory of relativity explicitly say that there is only one timeline. However, I don't see anything in relativity that restricts us to only one universe.

[eugimon]

special relativity describes one universe with one timeline... Time travel may be possible but it requires the creation of a time machine... something that will open a hole in the fabric of space/time and keep it open.... you can thus only travel to point in time which there already exists a time machine to receive you.

Time and events are also fixed... so no paradoxes... you can't travel back in time to kill your parents because you didn't.

That's news to me.

The special relativity I learned in physics was that as the speed of travel approaches the speed of light, time, mass, and dimensions become distorted. Mass approaches infinity, length approaches zero, and time stands still. It places the universal speed limit at the speed of light. It also makes Newtonian physics useful only for everyday life at speeds much less than the speed of light and low precision.

General relativity says that accelerating reference frame and gravitic reference frame are the same. Within a closed box, one would not know if the box is accelerating in empty space free of gravity or if the box is standing still inside a gravity well. There is a thought experiment that can be done to show that space is curved. Also, a particle not only exists in three dimensional space but also a time as well. A particle's position can be described best as a physical location (x, y, z) and time t.

What I take this to mean for time travel is that with time dilation, travelling into the future is possible but not into the past. Also, with sufficient mass, space can be made to curve in on itself so that a particle may occupy two places at the same time.

Then there's Quantum Theory.. and this is a giant ball of yarn... basically this sets up the notion that for every possible choice/chance whatever, there exists a universe where it happened...

The terminator world follows Quantum theory more or less....

Here's a fun site that describes it far better than I could:

http://www.iit.edu/~bosabri/time.html

344160[/snapback]

The multi-verse idea. I've heard of this before. But this is the first time I've seen the theory of relativity explicitly say that there is only one timeline. However, I don't see anything in relativity that restricts us to only one universe.

344233[/snapback]

It's not explicit but implied... for einstein time travel was basically in regards to you move relatively faster than others and moving forward in time. Time travel in to the past could be done with a wormhole that was anchored with a time travel machine at both ends of time/space. so if you move into the past to do something you can't change anything because while for you your relative experience is the now but objective history would have already recorded what you did (in your now).

so defacto, only one universe. Now there might be multiple universes but you're not creating "new" universes or even altering your universe by your actions because the world that you live in already took into account that which you did.

[tetsujin]

I don't see how they can do this and have any sort of interesting story without screwing up the continuity established by T3.  Since John Connor specifically said they thought they had averted Judgement Day after the events of T2.  Dumbasses.

Terminator's continuity isn't that solid to begin with.

John Conner is born because of a predestination paradox.

Kyle Reese goes back in time to stop the terminator from killing Sarah Conner, mother of John Conner. In the process, they have sex and he winds up being John conner's father. Meaning that the rebel leader Skynet attempted to prevent was only created BECAUSE the terminator was running around in the past.

A predestination paradox requires a rigid and unchangable timeline, at least with regards to the events responsible for the paradox.

There is also the perspective to time travel which says that if you change something, the timeline forks, but without destroying the alternate timeline. So we have:

Timeline 1: Sarah gets pregnant from some other guy, John is born, apocalypse happens, John is the great leader and the terminator and Kyle are sent back in time. (But in this timeline, neither Kyle nor the Terminator appear in the past.)

Timeline 2: Kyle and the terminator appear in 1980-something. "Terminator 1" happens. The future John of this timeline is different from the John who Kyle remembers - but based on things said in T2 this John's history must have been similar, at least including sending Kyle back.

Timeline 3: "Terminator 2" - John (son of Kyle) sends back Schwarzenegger to fight Robert Patrick. The result is that the apocalypse doesn't happen.

In each case, the people who come from the future change the past - but not their own past, rather they create a new past, sort of like an alternate reality in the "Sliders" vein. The world they came from could still exist, but its connection with the altered world is broken. From this perspective, sending anybody back at all seems a waste of time, in the sense that it won't change one's own world - but there's no way anybody involved would know that unless someone actually succeeded in returning to their own future.

(I always liked how "Bill & Ted" and "Back to the Future" played with the notion of time travel paradoxes, though...)

[Stamen0083]

There is also the perspective to time travel which says that if you change something, the timeline forks, but without destroying the alternate timeline.

That's the multiverse time travel idea.

[JB0]

I don't see how they can do this and have any sort of interesting story without screwing up the continuity established by T3.  Since John Connor specifically said they thought they had averted Judgement Day after the events of T2.  Dumbasses.

Terminator's continuity isn't that solid to begin with.

John Conner is born because of a predestination paradox.

Kyle Reese goes back in time to stop the terminator from killing Sarah Conner, mother of John Conner. In the process, they have sex and he winds up being John conner's father. Meaning that the rebel leader Skynet attempted to prevent was only created BECAUSE the terminator was running around in the past.

A predestination paradox requires a rigid and unchangable timeline, at least with regards to the events responsible for the paradox.

There is also the perspective to time travel which says that if you change something, the timeline forks, but without destroying the alternate timeline. So we have:

Timeline 1: Sarah gets pregnant from some other guy, John is born, apocalypse happens, John is the great leader and the terminator and Kyle are sent back in time. (But in this timeline, neither Kyle nor the Terminator appear in the past.)

Timeline 2: Kyle and the terminator appear in 1980-something. "Terminator 1" happens. The future John of this timeline is different from the John who Kyle remembers - but based on things said in T2 this John's history must have been similar, at least including sending Kyle back.

Timeline 3: "Terminator 2" - John (son of Kyle) sends back Schwarzenegger to fight Robert Patrick. The result is that the apocalypse doesn't happen.

In each case, the people who come from the future change the past - but not their own past, rather they create a new past, sort of like an alternate reality in the "Sliders" vein. The world they came from could still exist, but its connection with the altered world is broken. From this perspective, sending anybody back at all seems a waste of time, in the sense that it won't change one's own world - but there's no way anybody involved would know that unless someone actually succeeded in returning to their own future.

(I always liked how "Bill & Ted" and "Back to the Future" played with the notion of time travel paradoxes, though...)

344253[/snapback]

Messy. But workable.

The branching timelines could ALSO explain why the 'bot in T3 was less advanced than the 'bot in T2. IMO, indestructable liquid metal > liquid metal over a conventional and destructable skeleton.

...

And from there you could tap the idea of closely related timelines being able to influence each other(the whole reason a multiverse concept exists), and render Skynet's temporal attacks rational. If the new timeline is close enough to the old one, it could have an impact on the original.

I still don't like T2, though.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

That's the multiverse time travel idea.

But it sounds less romantic because it defeats the purpose of sending soldiers back.

I like the "future is destroyed once the present is altered" idea better. It matches up with why reese explained to the cops that you can't go back to his future time anymore. It is just him and the terminator that determines the "real" flow of events and the "real" future which is why they had to send a human to protect the mother to begin with - because that instance of Sarah is the "real" one and all other people named sarah conner are just possibilities. Once all the possibilities are destroyed, (every single person named sarah conner who happens to fullfill the promised apearance, personality, and behaviour described as John's Conner's mother) the terminators win because the prophecy must come true according to god's word. (this is asuming that god exists and can't lie about a coming apocalypse because he would be breaking his own rules This is why I say Kyle's consciousness or soul or whatever can only be grafted to one version of himself so then God then judges each person by where thier unique identity is. ie the very first kyle reese that entered the time machine = the real kyle reese. Alternate reality reese is destroyed and his soul is in the original reese)

The people that live in the alternate future where humans have lost, suddenly vanish mysteriously and the end of the world happens where time stops and the dead are no longer conscious of thier own existence, as if they were alseep waiting for judgement. (assuming there is a god at the end of time who can stop time like a videotape that has run out of recording space)

That's how I see it. The prophecy must eventually come true and things are inevitable (end of the world) but it can be slowed down based on a condition that humans keep fighting to resist the terminators right here in the present. Once the resistance in the present fails, (eg if arnie managed to really kill sarah conner, the terminators would win and there would be no second chances because humans lost in the future unable to get access to a time machine ever again) we move one step closer to the end of the world. So the idea is that the bad guys eventually DO win as promised and time is limited (like a tape) but we can stop each instance where the terminators come back. (they can not be completely destroyed because it is prophetic and God want's to eventually end the world once we reach that point of no return)

So long as people are conscious that there IS a threat, (by getting forewarning from people from the future) and they successfully fight to change the inevitable, they can postpone the destruction. But they can't outright stop it from happening forever. (after all, we have limited lifespan anyway, so no matter how much time traveling you do, the "work" you do is limited to the length of time you are alive. And cloning wouldn't work because the real you is the only one with the unique experiences you've collected over time)

This all goes back to the idea that there is no fate but the fate you make. The future is not set. (conditional on what present day people decide to do) You keep fighting, and you postpone the inevitable for a while. Decide to stop fighting, and the terminators slowly come back for more chances to end the human race's existance like weed's that keep growing in the backyard that must be regularly taken out. But nobody can know the real exact date of the time when god decides to bring the world to an end, it is more to do with events and whether the resistance is strong enough to change them to prevent the terminators from carrying out thier mission.

Edited November 12, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Stamen0083]

Dude. Don't bring god into this.

[JB0]

The people that live in the alternate future where humans have lost, suddenly vanish mysteriously and the end of the world happens where time stops and the dead are no longer conscious of thier own existence, as if they were alseep waiting for judgement. (assuming there is a god at the end of time who can stop time like a videotape that has run out of recording space)

Unless god is interested in his creations' creations.

he might leave the tape running to see what happens next, even if his grandkids have already proven to be worthless scum.

So long as people are conscious that there IS a threat, (by getting forewarning from people from the future) and they successfully fight to change the inevitable, they can postpone the destruction. But they can't outright stop it from happening forever. (after all, we have limited lifespan anyway, so no matter how much time traveling you do, the "work" you do is limited to the length of time you are alive. And cloning wouldn't work because the real you is the only one with the unique experiences you've collected over time)

Unless someone creates a mechanism for transplanting memories.

Been done in sci-fi before(in fact, it's a staple of many clone stories).

Though there's no really plausable way to do it that we know of, there's also no really plausable way to time-travel, so it balances out.

This all goes back to the idea that there is no fate but the fate you make. The future is not set. (conditional on what present day people decide to do) You keep fighting, and you postpone the inevitable for a while. Decide to stop fighting, and the terminators slowly come back for more chances to end the human race's existance like weed's that keep growing in the backyard that must be regularly taken out. But nobody can know the real exact date of the time when god decides to bring the world to an end, it is more to do with events and whether the resistance is strong enough to change them to prevent the terminators from carrying out thier mission.

There's a finite number of terminators that can be sent back.

At least in the pre-Terminator 1 timeline, Skynet was making a desperate gamble. The tables had turned and humanity was pushing it back. From there it's only a matter of time before someone unplugs Skynet.

This was credited to John Conner's leadership, so why not keep him from being born?

Of course, it's possible that if not Conner, someone else would've risen to the role. Perhaps one of the aides that were being killed off in T3, perhaps someone that never became noteworthy in the eixsting timeline(s).

And there's apparently severe limits on time travel, since Skynet didn't send a team of terminators back at any point in the series.

Of course, I seem to recall the humans taking over the time travel facility as Skynet sent the original terminator back in time, which explains the first one.

But T2 and T3 mean Skynet had more facilites, built new ones, or never lost them in the new timelines. And we're back to either limited range or massive power usage, which would slow your cycle times down a LOT(not long enough to prevent a counter-strike, but long enough to limit how much mechpower you send back).

Things are more difficult post-T2, since the new Skynet is a decentralized network now(I doubt it would give this up and move into a centralized computer, because it makes it far more vulnerable).

But each individual instance of the Skynet client is relatively stupid. It's only the network as a whole that is smart.

Disconnect a computer from the network, and Skynet as a whole gets dumber. The disconnected computer gets VERY dumb.

It will be virtually impossible to totally eradicate this incarnation of Skynet, but humanity knows what to look for and can maintain it at the mild nuisance level. You could inject a virus into the network to destroy it, but it would have to be as adaptive as Skynet itself, which humanity would (understandably) be somewhat hesitant to try.

The upside is...

If you can isolate a factory from the network, you can seize it for yourself and retool to serve your purposes(if nothing else, you need to wipe the computer to eliminate the currently-running Skynet app). The factory probably deletes hardware plans if it looks like humanity's gonna take over, so don't expect to get anything but what you can feed it.

But that's still going through at least the T800 series, and likely more if you can yank samples off the assembly line.

Then you can fight fire with fire, and steel with steel.

...

This may be why the 'bot in T3 has the capacity to reprogram other terminators. If the resistance is making an army of Arnolds, the ability to "brainwash" them would be a valuable asset.

ANYWAYS... once you have the capability to produce mecha, you can use that to reinforce your own forces. Even an older terminator like the Governator is far more effective against Skynet's forces than a human, simply by virtue of increased speed and durability.

That boosts your chances at the NEXT facility.

And you need another facility, because in the T3 version of the future every last tank, hoverjet, and terminator is part of Skynet's "brain." Seizing or destroying all the factories is the key to victory, though. Deny the capacity to make new parts. You might not be able to destroy Skynet, but you can paralyze it. Remove the arms and legs, and it can't do much.

...

Unfortunbately, termiantors can be used to build new factories. But if you can smash and grab faster than they can build, you win eventually.

Edited November 12, 2005 by JB0

[big F]

All valid points

I was thinking the same as JBO

[myk]

The only point to consider here is that SOMEONE'S childhood or early adolescence is being raped here...

[Gui]

Once more or once less, what's the difference now?

[Black Valkyrie]

But didn't Birds of Prey bomb?

344209[/snapback]

Yep, just 13 episodes.

[JB0]

As a side note... it's been suggested that taking over the power plants would be a good idea. Power isn't likely to be decentralized, at least not for the heavy stuff like factories and network nodes. Injecting some sags and spikes into the AC would tear some transistors up FAST.

[Stamen0083]

As a side note... it's been suggested that taking over the power plants would be a good idea. Power isn't likely to be decentralized, at least not for the heavy stuff like factories and network nodes. Injecting some sags and spikes into the AC would tear some transistors up FAST.

344359[/snapback]

If they still use transistors. I wouldn't be surprised that whatever technology the machines come up with to replace transistors will be highly resistant to power surges, and generally much better than current digital technology.

Besides, modern technology already has safeguards so that power surges don't even get to transistors in the first place.

[JB0]

As a side note... it's been suggested that taking over the power plants would be a good idea. Power isn't likely to be decentralized, at least not for the heavy stuff like factories and network nodes. Injecting some sags and spikes into the AC would tear some transistors up FAST.

344359[/snapback]

If they still use transistors. I wouldn't be surprised that whatever technology the machines come up with to replace transistors will be highly resistant to power surges, and generally much better than current digital technology.

Maybe. Maybe not.

Besides, modern technology already has safeguards so that power surges don't even get to transistors in the first place.

There's limits to what you can filter out in most cases.

And a big enough surge will rip through any countermeasures.