Macross II animation question

[Queadlunn-Rau]

Anyone know why the animation at the end of the movie is so bad compared to the first half of the movie? Silvie looks like a boy, Ishtar was drawn with a Pinocco nose in a scene. Was it budget reasons?

Also, does anyone know what the Nexx does when he takes the Metal Siren into a enemy ship and destroys it with those line thingies that explode the ship like a pimple pickle?

[Gui]

I belive it was budget reasons: I read into an old issue of Protoculture Addicts that the first eps didn't do so well in terms of sale then the production decided to rush the ending as far as directing was concerned, hence this poor result...

[Queadlunn-Rau]

no way, the first episode was good. It was the first instance in the Macross universe where Earth had a large standing army of defense cruisers/ships that it was just good. A lot of firsts appeared in that episode, like the somber/heroic idea of the Macross reserved as a monument in culture park, the media coverage in military matters, and all sorts of good topics.

[JB0]

Just because it's quality entertainment doesn't mean it's gonna sell well.

A lot of very good programs have died because people just didn't care.

[Keith]

It's because it was an OVA (6 episodes), not a movie. As popularity wained, so did the production budget.

[armentage]

Boy did it have beautiful "space-scapes" in the first few installments.

[Zinjo]

Boy did it have beautiful "space-scapes" in the first few installments.

341336[/snapback]

No doubt it didn't help that Studio Nue disavowed any association to it and I'm sure that had an impact with the Japanese fans back then.

[Fortress_Maximus]

As OVAs go Macross II wasn't even 100% supported by the primary character designer Mikimoto. He was against working on this series and while I am certain part of the reason why the quality declined was due to poor reception of the first OVA, I wouldn't be surprised of Mikimoto himself didn't make as much of an effort. Fans then were fickle, but just imagine how badly MII would do today. It'd bomb horribly!

[Keith]

No, despite the content, Mikimoto still delivered on quality designs, I definately blame the animation budget far more than him.

[emajnthis]

As OVAs go Macross II wasn't even 100% supported by the primary character designer Mikimoto. He was against working on this series and while I am certain part of the reason why the quality declined was due to poor reception of the first OVA, I wouldn't be surprised of Mikimoto himself didn't make as much of an effort. Fans then were fickle, but just imagine how badly MII would do today. It'd bomb horribly!

341490[/snapback]

I beg to differ. Anime (even bad anime) has a better chance of surviving in today's market than it did 10 or so years ago. Many people are willing to watch something no matter how bad it is at least once, and i think since there is such a limited amount of mecha anime on the market today, a remake, (and it would have to be a hell of a remake, kinda like what happened to appleseed) would probably be well accepted by the public. But that's just an opinion, maybe if there were more bad mecha series out there to test the waters it would be better to judge.

[azrael]

No doubt it didn't help that Studio Nue disavowed any association to it and I'm sure that had an impact with the Japanese fans back then.

341351[/snapback]

They never disavowed it. Studio Nue never worked on it so really, there's nothing to disavow. They set it in a parallel world like the non-UC Gundam since Studio Nue never worked on it. Mikimoto doesn't count as being part of Studio Nue since he left the group in 1980 and joined Artland. Studio Nue still recognizes it as Macross and that it was done, but it's not part of the official timeline of the series.

As the character designer, Mikimoto just does designs and still-art. He doesn't animate. It is the job of the animators to take his designs and put them on screen.

[emajnthis]

The other thing i was trying to figure out, was how after Nexx destroys the ship with the Metal Siren, how in the next scene he was able to hi-jack a VF-2SS... talk about weird.

[Fortress_Maximus]

As OVAs go Macross II wasn't even 100% supported by the primary character designer Mikimoto. He was against working on this series and while I am certain part of the reason why the quality declined was due to poor reception of the first OVA, I wouldn't be surprised of Mikimoto himself didn't make as much of an effort. Fans then were fickle, but just imagine how badly MII would do today. It'd bomb horribly!

341490[/snapback]

I beg to differ. Anime (even bad anime) has a better chance of surviving in today's market than it did 10 or so years ago. Many people are willing to watch something no matter how bad it is at least once, and i think since there is such a limited amount of mecha anime on the market today, a remake, (and it would have to be a hell of a remake, kinda like what happened to appleseed) would probably be well accepted by the public. But that's just an opinion, maybe if there were more bad mecha series out there to test the waters it would be better to judge.

341577[/snapback]

I respectfully disagree because the average anime viewer is not interested in a)mecha in comparison to other anime genres, and b)searching for old anime when newer anime is readily available on tv. Middle school kids and teenagers are lazy, and even if MII was rereleased today it wouldn't stand a chance against popular titles such as Full Metal Alchemist, Naruto, and certainly not a snowballs chance in hell against Inuyasha. And as for mecha, I believe the lack thereof is an excellent indicator of the poor "demand".

[Fortress_Maximus]

No, despite the content, Mikimoto still delivered on quality designs, I definately blame the animation budget far more than him.

341528[/snapback]

One would think so, but if you check the gengas he did for the latter OVAs they were not as good as the earlier ones. Even with a reduced budget the "quality" of his own work should not have an unexplained decline. Just like with DYRL Mikimoto worked on the key gengas scenes, settei and oversaw the key animation. IMO the budget wouldn't effect the quality of his work, unless he himself reduced it.

[emajnthis]

As OVAs go Macross II wasn't even 100% supported by the primary character designer Mikimoto. He was against working on this series and while I am certain part of the reason why the quality declined was due to poor reception of the first OVA, I wouldn't be surprised of Mikimoto himself didn't make as much of an effort. Fans then were fickle, but just imagine how badly MII would do today. It'd bomb horribly!

341490[/snapback]

I beg to differ. Anime (even bad anime) has a better chance of surviving in today's market than it did 10 or so years ago. Many people are willing to watch something no matter how bad it is at least once, and i think since there is such a limited amount of mecha anime on the market today, a remake, (and it would have to be a hell of a remake, kinda like what happened to appleseed) would probably be well accepted by the public. But that's just an opinion, maybe if there were more bad mecha series out there to test the waters it would be better to judge.

341577[/snapback]

I respectfully disagree because the average anime viewer is not interested in a)mecha in comparison to other anime genres, and b)searching for old anime when newer anime is readily available on tv. Middle school kids and teenagers are lazy, and even if MII was rereleased today it wouldn't stand a chance against popular titles such as Full Metal Alchemist, Naruto, and certainly not a snowballs chance in hell against Inuyasha. And as for mecha, I believe the lack thereof is an excellent indicator of the poor "demand".

341608[/snapback]

But then there's also deep considerations of nostalgia among fans (regardless of if they're fans of macross II, macross in general). I'm pretty sure even if a crap series like Macross II was remade to the level of a remake like appleseed then anime fans (macross or not) would definitely watch it IF it was done with a real budget. As was stated before, the biggest downfall of this series wasn't the lack of good designs or even story (though i found it a bit thin) it was mainly the drop off in budget. Though, i'd have to admit, i'd prefer that there be a new macross movie/ova that follows the current timeline (regardless of how sorted it is) than have a remake of a died out series.

[emajnthis]

No, despite the content, Mikimoto still delivered on quality designs, I definately blame the animation budget far more than him.

341528[/snapback]

One would think so, but if you check the gengas he did for the latter OVAs they were not as good as the earlier ones. Even with a reduced budget the "quality" of his own work should not have an unexplained decline. Just like with DYRL Mikimoto worked on the key gengas scenes, settei and oversaw the key animation. IMO the budget wouldn't effect the quality of his work, unless he himself reduced it.

341609[/snapback]

That's not always true because as an office manager i oversee all of my employees work, and if i knew that someones pay was getting cut (even my own) i probably would a) not work as hard, or b) not demand as much in quality of work (considering the budget cuts). Since he knew the series had to be summed up quick, he probably just wanted the madness to end.

[Fortress_Maximus]

As OVAs go Macross II wasn't even 100% supported by the primary character designer Mikimoto. He was against working on this series and while I am certain part of the reason why the quality declined was due to poor reception of the first OVA, I wouldn't be surprised of Mikimoto himself didn't make as much of an effort. Fans then were fickle, but just imagine how badly MII would do today. It'd bomb horribly!

341490[/snapback]

I beg to differ. Anime (even bad anime) has a better chance of surviving in today's market than it did 10 or so years ago. Many people are willing to watch something no matter how bad it is at least once, and i think since there is such a limited amount of mecha anime on the market today, a remake, (and it would have to be a hell of a remake, kinda like what happened to appleseed) would probably be well accepted by the public. But that's just an opinion, maybe if there were more bad mecha series out there to test the waters it would be better to judge.

341577[/snapback]

I respectfully disagree because the average anime viewer is not interested in a)mecha in comparison to other anime genres, and b)searching for old anime when newer anime is readily available on tv. Middle school kids and teenagers are lazy, and even if MII was rereleased today it wouldn't stand a chance against popular titles such as Full Metal Alchemist, Naruto, and certainly not a snowballs chance in hell against Inuyasha. And as for mecha, I believe the lack thereof is an excellent indicator of the poor "demand".

341608[/snapback]

But then there's also deep considerations of nostalgia among fans (regardless of if they're fans of macross II, macross in general). I'm pretty sure even if a crap series like Macross II was remade to the level of a remake like appleseed then anime fans (macross or not) would definitely watch it IF it was done with a real budget. As was stated before, the biggest downfall of this series wasn't the lack of good designs or even story (though i found it a bit thin) it was mainly the drop off in budget. Though, i'd have to admit, i'd prefer that there be a new macross movie/ova that follows the current timeline (regardless of how sorted it is) than have a remake of a died out series.

341620[/snapback]

Perhaps but you are missing out the entire point if it was redone or created anew today. If it was redone for todays audiences, the studio and the execs would hope to bring in new viewers moreso than please existing viewers. The marketplace for existing Macross fans in comparison to the wider anime market both in JP and in the USA is small. Internationally Macross while popular still does not out sell in dvds or merchandising series like Inuyasha or Naruto. We are dealing with a different audience that is much more demanding. As for Appleseed domestically in the US sales of the dvd were not great, the GITS first and second films did considerably better.

[Fortress_Maximus]

No, despite the content, Mikimoto still delivered on quality designs, I definately blame the animation budget far more than him.

341528[/snapback]

One would think so, but if you check the gengas he did for the latter OVAs they were not as good as the earlier ones. Even with a reduced budget the "quality" of his own work should not have an unexplained decline. Just like with DYRL Mikimoto worked on the key gengas scenes, settei and oversaw the key animation. IMO the budget wouldn't effect the quality of his work, unless he himself reduced it.

341609[/snapback]

That's not always true because as an office manager i oversee all of my employees work, and if i knew that someones pay was getting cut (even my own) i probably would a) not work as hard, or b) not demand as much in quality of work (considering the budget cuts). Since he knew the series had to be summed up quick, he probably just wanted the madness to end.

341623[/snapback]

You are forgetting that Mikimoto was dead set against MII, he was forced to lend his skills. While it is true he wanted it to end, the quality of his own work clearly diminished as production continued. Reduced production funding or not, he still did not have to do an half assed effort. Don't believe me, research the gengas he did and look at how the quality just dropped, it was deliberate.

Edited November 2, 2005 by Fortress_Maximus

[Keith]

More likely, they forced himt o work faster. Mikimoto does his best work when given time to put the detail he loves putting into it. With a falling budget, time would have grown shorter. Besides which, there are still some great shots of Ishtar in the later episodes, notably when Feff sends her off at the end of the 5th episode, probably the single best shot of her in the whole OVA.

[emajnthis]

As OVAs go Macross II wasn't even 100% supported by the primary character designer Mikimoto. He was against working on this series and while I am certain part of the reason why the quality declined was due to poor reception of the first OVA, I wouldn't be surprised of Mikimoto himself didn't make as much of an effort. Fans then were fickle, but just imagine how badly MII would do today. It'd bomb horribly!

341490[/snapback]

I beg to differ. Anime (even bad anime) has a better chance of surviving in today's market than it did 10 or so years ago. Many people are willing to watch something no matter how bad it is at least once, and i think since there is such a limited amount of mecha anime on the market today, a remake, (and it would have to be a hell of a remake, kinda like what happened to appleseed) would probably be well accepted by the public. But that's just an opinion, maybe if there were more bad mecha series out there to test the waters it would be better to judge.

341577[/snapback]

I respectfully disagree because the average anime viewer is not interested in a)mecha in comparison to other anime genres, and b)searching for old anime when newer anime is readily available on tv. Middle school kids and teenagers are lazy, and even if MII was rereleased today it wouldn't stand a chance against popular titles such as Full Metal Alchemist, Naruto, and certainly not a snowballs chance in hell against Inuyasha. And as for mecha, I believe the lack thereof is an excellent indicator of the poor "demand".

341608[/snapback]

But then there's also deep considerations of nostalgia among fans (regardless of if they're fans of macross II, macross in general). I'm pretty sure even if a crap series like Macross II was remade to the level of a remake like appleseed then anime fans (macross or not) would definitely watch it IF it was done with a real budget. As was stated before, the biggest downfall of this series wasn't the lack of good designs or even story (though i found it a bit thin) it was mainly the drop off in budget. Though, i'd have to admit, i'd prefer that there be a new macross movie/ova that follows the current timeline (regardless of how sorted it is) than have a remake of a died out series.

341620[/snapback]

Perhaps but you are missing out the entire point if it was redone or created anew today. If it was redone for todays audiences, the studio and the execs would hope to bring in new viewers moreso than please existing viewers. The marketplace for existing Macross fans in comparison to the wider anime market both in JP and in the USA is small. Internationally Macross while popular still does not out sell in dvds or merchandising series like Inuyasha or Naruto. We are dealing with a different audience that is much more demanding. As for Appleseed domestically in the US sales of the dvd were not great, the GITS first and second films did considerably better.

341638[/snapback]

But then the original debate was circled around whether it would do well which doesn't imply it doing as well as a hit series like Naruto or Inuyasha. If that were the case, then Macross Zero doesn't even hit the board either for doing as well as Naruto or Inuyasha, but regardless it certainly didn't bomb. If Macross II was remade with the fixed errors (like killing of the Macross) and had the level of animation equivalent or better than Macross Zero, then i believe it would do on par with the expectancies of a mecha series in todays market.

[Zinjo]

Mac II definitely needs to be re-made!

To shoe horn it into the "official timeline" would be very easy considering it takes place 35 years after Macross 7, which is part of the "official timeline" (for reasons that escape me... )

Anyway, the core of the story is sound, it is the execution of it that seemed rushed and splintered. The Metal Siren scene already mentioned, the supposed "relationship" between Nexx and Sylvie (??), the sudden relationship between Sylie and Hibiki, etc... All these things would need to be better layed out and let's face it Studio Nue is very good at character development, so their input into the project was obviously absent.

To re-do the series would require the same break neck CG action we saw in "Macross 0". They will need to reference not only Minmay, but Sharon Apple as well as Fire Bomber when attempting to repell the initial Marduk attack.

The would need to reference the Macross Emigration Fleets, possibly even debating whether to recall the last one to leave, in order to assist with the defence of the Earth.

Hell if they really wanted to be cute they could make Sylvie, Mylene's daughter. It was hinted that she was of the Jenus bloodline when she remarked that she had Meltran blood in her from her grandmother.

They could also add to the legend of the Macross by having the "Ship of the Alus" being an ancient library of the knowledge of the Protoculture race. The legend has given the ship supernatural power over the centuries with the Marduk people.

I don't really see a need to bring the older VF series fighters in since they may not be in service in the Earth system and the VF-2 has it's origins from the VF 3000 design anyway.

Some of the ships could be redone, the Macross Cannon ships could be re-designed and maybe even the Gloria (should have been called the "Glory" IMO) could be made a bit bigger and nastier considering it was the Earth Fleet's flagship.

Edited November 3, 2005 by Zinjo

[Keith]

There's no point in remaking II, the core of its story is sound because it's DYRL, II brought nothing oriignal to the pot.

[Gui]

I agree with Keith: IIs is cool as-is, an entirely new series would be more welcome IMO

[azrael]

The last thing I would want in a Macross series is a remake of another Macross story....

[Fortress_Maximus]

emajnthis, I understand where you are coming from but the "expectancies" if any, in todays anime market for mecha themed anime is close to nill. One of the last big anime series was EVA and that was quite a long time ago. Regardless if Macross II was redone with corrections globally it would not generate enough interest. Macross Zero was an excellent attempt to stir up interest and bring back older fans, but it did not do well. Series like Naruto, Full Metal Achelmist, Inuyasha are important comparisons b/c they clearly indicate what fans want and will support financially today! Equally important, without the increased fan interest, demand for mecha themed animes will continue to diminish; studio executives are not stupid, they will not continue to pour considerable monies into creating mecha animes that do not have strong demand, equalling low profits. Whether you like to want to acknowledge it or not, currently the mecha genre in anime is not profitable for companies.

[emajnthis]

emajnthis, I understand where you are coming from but the "expectancies" if any, in todays anime market for mecha themed anime is close to nill. One of the last big anime series was EVA and that was quite a long time ago. Regardless if Macross II was redone with corrections globally it would not generate enough interest. Macross Zero was an excellent attempt to stir up interest and bring back older fans, but it did not do well. Series like Naruto, Full Metal Achelmist, Inuyasha are important comparisons b/c they clearly indicate what fans want and will support financially today! Equally important, without the increased fan interest, demand for mecha themed animes will continue to diminish; studio executives are not stupid, they will not continue to pour considerable monies into creating mecha animes that do not have strong demand, equalling low profits. Whether you like to want to acknowledge it or not, currently the mecha genre in anime is not profitable for companies.

342177[/snapback]

That is a completely valid point from a marketing perspective (I understand because i was a marketing manager for 4 years). But from a fan perspective, it's always nice to see a franchised series, mecha/drama/any genre for that matter suceed, or at least have some continuity. I mean if they can make more Gundam series than stars in the sky, i would hope that someone(s) would continue the macross franchise in a proper manner. I mean aside from DYRL? and the original TV series, most post series were debatable and had ingredients that people either didn't like or just couldn't get into and weren't catered to ALL audiences (either fans didn't like it, or general anime public rejected it). I understand from a marketing stand point that mecha anime is a dying cause, but i really hope that there are enough people out there that enjoy the genre that hopefully one day it will have a revival. Which makes you wonder if there will be anymore Macross series after Zero and whether it will be a prequel, sequel, or AU.

[Fortress_Maximus]

Honestly if there were anymore Macross series... I'll be grateful with whatever the hell we can get. I love mecha, especially old school ones like Mazinger, Iczer, Orguss, and Dangaioh (don't support the Manga Entertainment version hunt down the US Renditions VHS version). Check them out if haven't already or pm me for more info!

[emajnthis]

Honestly if there were anymore Macross series... I'll be grateful with whatever the hell we can get. I love mecha, especially old school ones like Mazinger, Iczer, Orguss, and Dangaioh (don't support the Manga Entertainment version hunt down the US Renditions VHS version). Check them out if haven't already or pm me for more info!

342184[/snapback]

Oh trust me i've seen them, and a HUGE fan... back in the days where the only way to watch real anime was to have a FOB friend from Japan who's only english speaking words consisted of what sounded like "my name is" and "friend", but you didn't care because he had anime! Also Madox-01 is one you have to put on there, probably one of my most favorite of the old stuff.

[azrael]

Honestly if there were anymore Macross series... I'll be grateful with whatever the hell we can get.

Yeh...

[Zinjo]

There's no point in remaking II, the core of its story is sound because it's DYRL, II brought nothing oriignal to the pot.

342103[/snapback]

No it isn't... Where did you get that idea?

DRYL didn't have the Zentradi immune to "Culture Shock".

DRYL didn't have their reverence of the Macross as some legendary ship (it was a Meltrandi ship in DRYL).

DRYL didn't have an alien defector that was part of a race that controlled the Zentradi warriors (not to mention a character that "did" the controlling through song).

Those are just a few of the major differences between the two shows.

Granted, you could tell that Mac II was meant to be longer than what it turned out to be, by how rushed and splintered the story was.

My biggest concern about new Macross projects is another Mac 7!

Ironically, I really liked the characters (particularly Mylene was too fun), but the premise of "Sound Force" was almost as bad as Robotech's "Magic Battery" IMO.

Mac 0 was amazing, but took liberties with already established facts from the series (not enough to ruin anything).

Edited November 5, 2005 by Zinjo

[Keith]

Where did I get that point? From seeing both DYRL & Macross II. The scene structure for II is near identical to DYRL, the plot is "extremely" close, and anything that is different is superficially so. Consider Macross II "pimp my ride" in reverse. Taking a shiny suped up car, and turning it into a "hooptie."

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I wouldn't mind seeing the valks in macross IIs universe make canon appearance in macross. (the same way they ripped whatever music in macross II and brought it into macross 7) Or maybe just clone their look and improve upon and modernise them?

Would love to see some toys made.

Edited November 6, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Renato]

As the character designer, Mikimoto just does designs and still-art. He doesn't animate. It is the job of the animators to take his designs and put them on screen.

341599[/snapback]

Actually he did draw a lot of the main animation keyframes in at least the first episode of Mac II, check out "Haruhiko Mikimoto Illustrations".

The best looking episodes of SDF Mac and Orguss, plus a lot of scenes in DYRL look so good because Mikimoto himself was doing the keyframes.

Edited November 6, 2005 by Renato