Question about the Project Super Nova competition.

[Loner]

I was rewatching Macross Plus recently and in the montage where Isamu was showing off the YF-19, I noticed there was a shot of a board showing the results in twelve areas between the 19 and the 21. I noticed that the results were more in favor in the of the YF-19. I know that after the Sharon Apple incident the 19 won the competition, but was it due to the 21 being destroyed or was it because the 19 was the better craft?

[JB0]

I was rewatching Macross Plus recently and in the montage where Isamu was showing off the YF-19, I noticed there was a shot of a board showing the results in twelve areas between the 19 and the 21. I noticed that the results were more in favor in the of the YF-19. I know that after the Sharon Apple incident the 19 won the competition, but was it due to the 21 being destroyed or was it because the 19 was the better craft?

336817[/snapback]

The board actually isn't clear.

The bars could be weighted any direction imaginable. Plausable weightings = Bigger is better, smaller is better, or right in the middle is better.

I'd considered the 19 to have won largely as a reward to Isamu for kicking Sharon's virtual ass.

But if I recall, it's been pointed out before that it was also cheaper than the 21, and fit better in the existing hangers. Which likely had more to do with it.

[Skippy438]

Not to mention that the BDI and BCS were kinda flawed.

[JB0]

Not to mention that the BDI and BCS were kinda flawed.

336823[/snapback]

We don't know that.

Guld had mental problems, and that's as likely to have caused issues as the actual hardware.

[Keith]

At the end of the day, Isamu was a better pilot than Guld, and I too thought the sats on the 19 side seemed to surpass the 21.

[yellowlightman]

I always had the feeling that the 19 was just a more balanced plane and more suitable for mass production. But then again, didn't they say how Isamu was the third or fourth test pilot after the previous pilots had some extreme accidents?

[kensei]

Not to mention that the BDI and BCS were kinda flawed.

336823[/snapback]

We don't know that.

Guld had mental problems, and that's as likely to have caused issues as the actual hardware.

336829[/snapback]

Yeah but who doesn't? The problem was only compounded because Isamu was his opponent.

[F-ZeroOne]

Not to mention that the BDI and BCS were kinda flawed.

336823[/snapback]

We don't know that.

Guld had mental problems, and that's as likely to have caused issues as the actual hardware.

336829[/snapback]

Its an untested prototype with a thought control system in a science fiction setting. Of course the BDI and BCS are to blame!

[JB0]

At the end of the day, Isamu was a better pilot than Guld, and I too thought the sats on the 19 side seemed to surpass the 21.

336833[/snapback]

I still don't see how people can claim Isamu was a better pilot.

Particularly since at the end of the day Guld had killed an AI drone with no G force restrictions and Isamu offed a pop star that couldn't aim a gun to save her life.

I always had the feeling that the 19 was just a more balanced plane and more suitable for mass production. But then again, didn't they say how Isamu was the third or fourth test pilot after the previous pilots had some extreme accidents?

336863[/snapback]

Yup. It was maiming pilots as fast as they could strap 'em in.

Edited October 15, 2005 by JB0

[azrael]

But if I recall, it's been pointed out before that it was also cheaper than the 21, and fit better in the existing hangers. Which likely had more to do with it.

This assumption is correct. It did have very little to do with the Sharon Apple Incident (although, it may have helped the 19, but utimately, other factors played in....I've gotten into the middle on this issue with Egan Loo).

The BDI/BCS seem to work pretty well from my view. It was later found in the EVA/Pheyos Valk. Even if the BDI/BCS version of the YF-21 wasn't picked, the second YF-21 with conventional controls could have been presented. And then the morphing wings. Great idea but the materials would cost the military more money. Then we start nitpicking, etc...

But, at the end of the day, a 19 would be cheaper and less resource-consuming than the YF-21. And ultimately, would be the choice of the UN. Although, this didn't stop the YF-21 from coming back as the YF-22/VF-22.

[promethuem5]

Does anything cover what sorta stuff happened to the other pilots of the 19? They never explain what happens to the 19 to need repairs for the scene when Isamu is in the 11, so I wonder what sorta technical trouble plagues the 19 the whole way thru, constantly wrecking it...

[Zentrandude]

Since I think in the begining newman told isamu that the last two died and in the simulator isamu "crushed" his plane I have to guess wither too much g for the pilot or since thr -19 is so long that they keep running into everything.

[JB0]

I have to guess wither too much g for the pilot

MODERN fighters do that.

So does the 21.

It's not g-forces.

or since thr -19 is so long that they keep running into everything.

In the air? There's not a lot to hit. Clouds have very little actual substance to them.

Not to mention the 21 is over a meter longer than the 19.

It was just a tempermental plane that liked to lose control.

[Zentrandude]

theres things called the ground they can run into isamu did it once or twice already.

My car can do that too on too much g-force.

Edited October 15, 2005 by Zentrandude

[Mr March]

As an amatuer filmmaker, I can tell you that a throw away scene like that is meant to visually communicate to the audience a message they will understand quickly, without going into dialogue or exposition. The scene lasts only moments, the attention of the audience is focused on a specific detail of the scene using light and color to emphasize the important details, the visual message is sent, and the scene ends.

In the case of Macross Plus, the scene in question is meant to tell the audience visually that the YF-19 is doing better than the YF-21 in the Super Nova Competition. The director wants this transition scene to help visually move the story along in the direction of the script. It's also a setup for tension between characters, indicating that the competition is well underway, results are starting to indicate an outcome, and the stakes are getting higher. As a result of this conflict, characters will take actions in response...possibly drastic action. Thus the story creates drama.

Whether the YF-19's success is due to superior product, superior pilot, or any number of factors is left up to individual viewer interpretation.

Edited October 16, 2005 by Mr March

[007-vf1]

As an amatuer filmmaker, I can tell you that a throw away scene like that is meant to visually communicate to the audience a message they will understand quickly, without going into dialogue or exposition.  The scene lasts only moments, the attention of the audience is focused on a specific detail of the scene using light and color to emphasize the important details, the visual message is sent, and the scene ends.

In the case of Macross Plus, the scene in question is meant to tell the audience visually that the YF-19 is doing better than the YF-21 in the Super Nova Competition.  The director wants this transition scene to help visually move the story along in the direction of the script.  It's also a setup for tension between characters, indicating that the competition is well underway, results are starting to indicate an outcome, and the stakes are getting higher.  As a result of this conflict, characters will take actions in response...possibly drastic action.  Thus the story creates drama.

Whether the YF-19's success is do to superior product, superior pilot, or any number of factors is left up to individual viewer interpretation.

336974[/snapback]

AMEN bro...

[Keith]

At the end of the day, Isamu was a better pilot than Guld, and I too thought the sats on the 19 side seemed to surpass the 21.

336833[/snapback]

I still don't see how people can claim Isamu was a better pilot.

Particularly since at the end of the day Guld had killed an AI drone with no G force restrictions and Isamu offed a pop star that couldn't aim a gun to save her life.

Guld only beat the Ghost by using the BDI/BCS at its most extreme, taking off the physical & mental safety limitatoins. That doesn't make him a better pilot, that just makes him more reckless in the end. Isamu however beat Guld on multiple occasions (even causing Guld to cheat!) using normal human piloting skill.

[JB0]

At the end of the day, Isamu was a better pilot than Guld, and I too thought the sats on the 19 side seemed to surpass the 21.

336833[/snapback]

I still don't see how people can claim Isamu was a better pilot.

Particularly since at the end of the day Guld had killed an AI drone with no G force restrictions and Isamu offed a pop star that couldn't aim a gun to save her life.

Guld only beat the Ghost by using the BDI/BCS at its most extreme, taking off the physical & mental safety limitatoins. That doesn't make him a better pilot, that just makes him more reckless in the end. Isamu however beat Guld on multiple occasions (even causing Guld to cheat!) using normal human piloting skill.

A. There were no mental limters. Just a physical one, which is present even on modern real-world aircraft, as I understand things.

B. Guld did what was necessary to beat a foe that was functioning on a totally diffrent level than him and Isamu.

I am going to emphasize this over and over again, because it is patently absurd to think that a normal fighter plane with conventional controls would perform anywhere NEAR the level of an AI drone, simply becaue the drone doesn't have the soft juicy center underneath the smooth crispy outside.

Physically, Guld was light-years behind the Ghost, and tore his body apart while matching its maneuvers. Isamu was even FURTHER behind physically, being 100% human instead of 50% genetically-engineered warrior.

Even if he didn't black out shortly after the fight began(as he would if the limitations of real-world humans were relevant, though they very likely weren't), he would've been unable to keep up with the Ghost simply because he would be physically incapable of manipulating his controls through the necessary maneuvers.

And I don't believe for a moment that the Ghost would politely hold still and NOT perform evasive maneuvers as Isamu got a lock and shot it. Once it starts dodging, Isamu's lost. And the Ghost can see Isamu's plane's sensors as they try to lock on, so it starts dodging as soon as he tries to get a lock.

This is the same reason that Guld and the Ghost didn't shoot each other down. Both of them could see the other's sensors, and move before a shot could be fired.

Mentally, Guld was on the same level as the Ghost, due to the BDI and BCS. Isamu... wasn't. This is hard to conceive, but is at the core of why Guld HAD to be the one to fight the Ghost.

Isamu was interpreting input from various gauges, sensor displays, and warning lights while wiggling a stick, stomping pedals, sliding a throttle, and manipulating switches.

Guld was seeing and flying. Every piece of information available from his vehicle was instantly and intuitively available. Every control of his vehicle was instantly and intuitively available.

In short, Isamu piloted a fighter plane, but Guld WAS a fighter plane.

Compared to Guld in the YF-21 2, Isamu was a very skilled half-blind cripple.

And as long as we're ranting about cheating...

Isamu didn't exactly play fair.

He was depicted several times screwing tests up just to spite Guld.

And then he went on a rampage with a stolen fighter when he was told he didn't win.

Guld has one absurd and totally non-credible assassination scheme, even for a show with transforming jetplanes and 30-foot spacemen. </rant>

In the movie(which is the story as originally written, before marketing forced a lengthened version to be made) I can't think of a single bit of cheating on either side, though Isamu is a bit more reckless.

...

And still goes on a rampage with a stolen fighter when he loses.

He's really lucky Sharon went crazy and let him be a hero, or he would've been locked up as soon as he landed. </tangent>

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I'm thinking they were about even, but the mental problems caused his plane to screw up because his hate made him lose focus when you are supposed to be calm, cool, and collected. Also aware of what the hell you are doing.

When Guld is constantly worried about the girl, from the 7 years ago rape scene, he turns reckless like isamu. Remember it was isamu who the audience is led to believe is the dangerous one at first. And Guld is the in-control one. (because he is all cocky until something goes wrong in the first ova episode and he is forced to accept help from his enemy. This must have been really humiliating, whether you are a confident or not)

Personally I think the yf21 just oozes more sophistication than the 19, but like others mentioned because of practical reasons, the 19 won out. Things like it being cheaper, more practical for the average joe to jump into, less risky. The brain system seemed a little dangerous to me thanks to those times when guld accidentally crashed the vf11 by merely thinking it. When questioned by that black guy about the control system, it seemed as if the reliability of the system was based half on the pilot's brain and half on the machine. Whose fault would it be if it released a bunch of missiles and killed friendly forces? Sounds a little dangerous to me..Especially if you've got zentradi who have the uncontrollable fighting urge and would probably get into fights amoungst themselves as much as the enemy, working for you. (Although I suppose like the clone soldier in star wars, they could prgram in obedience?)

Now imagine if you acidentally killed your own guys because you got in a bad mood one day?

I do think it would be a better design (having information go straight into your mind eliminating any delays and speed up your reaction speeds) and an average pilot in a yf21 would probably have a slight edge over an average pilot in 19, but people tend to go with what they know and the risks might factor into it. (ie the black guy's concerns about the control system glitch. Unless this was fixed, who knows how safe it would be in times where you are relying on the machine to save your life?)

So they went with the "safe" choice.

Remember that guld was doing pretty good in the OVA after he realised he had secured the girl's trust after the fire scene. So when his mind is relaxed I bet he can pilot better. I think Sharon Apple felt sorry for Guld and did that on purpose to balance the competition a bit. When guld is motivated by the girl to fight to protect her like a knight, I think he is more determined and calm as he mentiond this gives him a purpose. Kinda cheesy, but romantic don't you think?

I am going to emphasize this over and over again, because it is patently absurd to think that a normal fighter plane with conventional controls would perform anywhere NEAR the level of an AI drone, simply becaue the drone doesn't have the soft juicy center underneath the smooth crispy outside.

They also had a similar idea in Gundam Wing where the unmanned "Mobile Dolls" were faster not just in reaction speed, but because they had no pilot inside them, they could do all kinds of manuevers that would normally kill a pilot if there was no limit. Early one of the aces which just dodges fire, says the others survived because they were mobile dolls and this helped them survive. Which is why all the interest in making pilotless mobile suits and why that dude with the fencing skills is so against them because he is old school and hates the fact there is no skill left in the fighting anymore for true soldiers who pride themselves on thier achievment in combat and honour a skilled adversary to fight against. There would only be hollow, meaningless, victory for pure fighters, if all a victory ever came down to was just wealth and whichever side could afford more robots to win a battle. ie no war heroes to inspire little children, nothing to brag about to friends, no respect or apreciation for skilled pilots ready to die for others etc Basically the victorious side would be shamed as cowardly with no fighting determined by human skill anymore.)

Edited October 16, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Bob_Coffee]

i think another thing we have to factor into the battle with the ghost in both macross plus oav4 and the movie,is the fact Isamu and guld didnt have sh!t for weapons. i think a fully loaded 19 and 21, could take a ghost out easly, and the gap between the YF-19 and the Ai controled ghost wouldnt be as important. Atleast they would have put up a good fight without having to take out the limiters, or anything crazy like that.

Isamu and Guld both pretty much exsausted there weapons when they fought in that city. the Ghost however had a full payload.Ai pilot or not, with little weapons there isnt much you can really do. that being said gulds decision was the most prudent one, in that his thoughts can match the speed of the ghosts Ai. and thus the 21, without its weapons and limiters was able to compeate and eventually take out the ghost. Isamu, as bad ass as the YF-19 is wouldnt have been able to match it, without some serious ingeunity. if he had a full payload of weapons, it would have been a much diffrent story in my opinon.

[armentage]

As an amatuer filmmaker, I can tell you that a throw away scene like that is meant to visually communicate to the audience a message they will understand quickly, without going into dialogue or exposition.  The scene lasts only moments, the attention of the audience is focused on a specific detail of the scene using light and color to emphasize the important details, the visual message is sent, and the scene ends.

In the case of Macross Plus, the scene in question is meant to tell the audience visually that the YF-19 is doing better than the YF-21 in ......  Thus the story creates drama.

336974[/snapback]

I love it when sane people tell insane fanboy's whats what!

[JB0]

Remember that guld was doing pretty good in the OVA after he realised he had secured the girl's trust after the fire scene. So when his mind is relaxed I bet he can pilot better. I think Sharon Apple felt sorry for Guld and did that on purpose to balance the competition a bit. When guld is motivated by the girl to fight to protect her like a knight, I think he is more determined and calm as he mentiond this gives him a purpose. Kinda cheesy, but romantic don't you think?

*nods*

It'd carry over into the conventional control 21-1, too.

Logically speaking, the majority of tests should've been 21-1 VS 19, with a spattering of 21-1 VS 21-2 tests.

Basic scientific method. Minimize the variables.

The neural interface could ahve been put in either plane, so you compare the diffrent planes with conventional controls to ensure that any performance diffrences are plane-related, and test the diffrent control methodoligies on otherwise identical planes to ensure the diffrences are due to the controls and not hte plane.

Optimally, you have identical pilots too, but in practice the human variable isn't removable, so you just shoot for roughly similar skill levels.

I am going to emphasize this over and over again, because it is patently absurd to think that a normal fighter plane with conventional controls would perform anywhere NEAR the level of an AI drone, simply becaue the drone doesn't have the soft juicy center underneath the smooth crispy outside.

They also had a similar idea in Gundam Wing where the unmanned "Mobile Dolls" were faster not just in reaction speed, but because they had no pilot inside them, they could do all kinds of manuevers that would normally kill a pilot if there was no limit. Early one of the aces which just dodges fire, says the others survived because they were mobile dolls and this helped them survive.

I hated that. When I was watching the show, the whole time I was going "Why aren't they moving faster? They're better mechs!"

Then I complained because the stars took on an entire swarm of them and emerged undamaged.

Wing was way to super-robot for its own good.

i think another thing we have to factor into the battle with the ghost in both macross plus oav4 and the movie,is the fact Isamu and guld didnt have sh!t for weapons. i think a fully loaded 19 and 21, could take a ghost out easly, and the gap between the YF-19 and the Ai controled ghost wouldnt be as important.  Atleast they would have put up a good fight without having to take out the limiters, or anything crazy like that.

Isamu and Guld both pretty much exsausted there weapons when they fought in that city. the Ghost however had a full payload.Ai pilot or not, with little weapons there isnt much you can really do. that being said gulds decision was the most prudent one, in that his thoughts can match the speed of the ghosts Ai. and thus the 21, without its weapons and limiters was able to compeate and eventually take out the ghost. Isamu, as bad ass as the YF-19 is wouldnt have been able to match it, without some serious ingeunity. if he had a full payload of weapons, it would have been a much diffrent story in my opinon.

Perhaps.

Both fighters still had lasers, which arguably were the best for the job, given they're essentially an instant-hit weapon.

Still need to get it in your sights, though. And there's the possibility of atmospheric interaction eating too much of the power.

Missiles would be of limited use. Remember, Guld charged head-on into a missile cloud and dodged them all without so much as a scratch. The Ghost should have no trouble matching that feat. They're best used as a distraction as opposed to a killing strike, though clouds from suitably seperated directions would greatlyu complicate the dodge.

Bullets are like slow lasers. I wouldn't count on them at a distance, but close-range they're a suitable substitute.

If I were against a Ghost solo, I'd try to get a laser lock. In battroid mode if possible, to minimize the motion I have to endure to keep it locked-on, from as far as possible while still maintaining killing power.

The Ghost would likely take advantage of its superior G tolerances and try to keep close to me while firing, forcing me to engage in rapid maneuvers to save my bacon and keep it in my fire arc.

Ultimately, I'll probably be forced to F mode, and there's a good chance of the MacPlus ending.

Given an ally, I'd strike from above with all my guns and a few missiles. Attempt to force it toward the ground. Get it in a crowded environment, and it's G tolerances are less useful.

My partner would dive down and go to GERWALK mode once we lower the altitude while I keep up the aerial barrage. That lets him keep a bit of fighter mode's high-speed maneuverability without sacrificing too much of battroid mode's greater targeting arc.

Now one of us is darting around on the ground like a tasmanian devil on crack while the other is raining death from the skies.

And the Ghost is confined while dealing with an assault on two fronts. Given a large enough weapons stock, you can occupy it's lasers with missile defense as you try to get a killing blow with your own lasers or bullets.

The Ghost, of course, will attempt to A. avoid urban combat, and B. remove one of us from the equation as soon as possible, so boxing it in is critical. It can't have a safe route in any direction other than down for any length of time.

Missile supply will be a major concern here.

[akt_m]

after reading everything i came to a conclusion that i am a super pilot, i was able to beat one ghost x-9 with a vf-1 in mac vfx-2.

Edited October 17, 2005 by akt_m

[JB0]

after reading everything i came to a conclusion that i am a super pilot, i was able to beat one ghost x-9 with a vf-1 in mac vfx-2. 

337166[/snapback]

Ahhhh.... I love how games mess with the stats.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Well if there was more than 1 ghost and the ghost had worked as a team you'd be fried chicken.

Was it sharon apple who was controlling the ghost though? I think sharon apple would just fire the SDF1 main gun at both of you and end it right there. Too bad she was only playing with the pilots though. She wanted them to feel good that's her excuse for controlling the sdf1 and trying to shoot the 19 down. I guess it didn't factor in that once a human is dead there is no more fun.

Your team might also get mind controlled if they got too near the holograms and started masturbating over of the naked pop idol instead of piloting the plane.

The best way to take on the ghost is to get an emp weapon to shut down the machine, or get yang to hack the sharon apple AI (like what he did at the concert) and use her to kill it.

Then I complained because the stars took on an entire swarm of them and emerged undamaged.

Wing was way to super-robot for its own good.

They were androids silly. They don't know this but the same inventor of astro boy (he is even more mysterious than those 5 mad scientists that appear in the anime) created the kids especially for the gundams so that they could withstand the pressure put on them by using the gundams. The major sally girl mentioned they were not even human so maybe they have some kind of combination of nanomachines and living tissue mixed together? This also explains the survival of the cockpit exploding and hiro survives this.

No way a skinny kid like that would survive. Well that's my theory anyway. It can also explain thier superhuman reaction speed. Newtypes don't exist (see ending to gundam X), it was just a myth invented to make humans feel inferior to thier own kind (splitting them in two groups) as a distraction so the machines would take over some day by pitting them against each other. But these star androids are like the good machines that don't even know they are machines, but are still helping the humans from destroying themselves because an alien race (who the inventor borrowed the technology from) gave them souls.

It's like blade runner, one of these days the truth about the 5 gundam pilots will come out and they will realise they are replicant-like machines created as tools to keep the human wars on earth as balanced as possible to prevent the humans wiping themselves out totally like the protoculture.

Edited October 17, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[JB0]

Well if there was more than 1 ghost and the ghost had worked as a team you'd be fried chicken.

Definitely.

Was it sharon apple who was controlling the ghost though?

I don't believe so. She may have issued it's orders, but she wasn't flying it directly. Lacks adequate combat knowledge to do so, really. You saw how effective she was shooting anti-aircraft guns at Isamu.

I think sharon apple would just fire the SDF1 main gun at both of you and end it right there.

Honestly, it's not a good anti-mecha weapon. Too slow, and far too visible during the pre-fire period

...

Nice attack radius, though. And killer range.

Too bad she was only playing with the pilots though. She wanted them to feel good that's her excuse for controlling the sdf1 and trying to shoot the 19 down.

I think she was a loon.

She didn't have a problem with killing, it was just killing on her terms.

I guess it didn't factor in that once a human is dead there is no more fun.

Well, it'd be kinda hard for a computer to grasp concepts like death. IT's a lkot easier to fix up copper and silicon than flesh and blood.

If your hard drive crashes, you just restore form a backup(speaking of which, I need to make one...).

If your 'bot gets blown apart, you rebuild it(unless you're in the Transformers movie).

Disassemble, reassemble!

Your team might also get mind controlled if they got too near the holograms and started masturbating over of the naked pop idol instead of piloting the plane.

Even if they don't get brainwashed, having their hands on the wrong joystick won't exactly be condusive to long life.

Going into a known hostile comm situation, I'd shut down all recievers.

...

And Guld would've been even more vulnerable if Sharon had chosen to attack him mentally instead of leaving the Ghost to do it's work. Once she hacked into the computer, she'd have direct access to his mind instead of just flashing hypnotic patterns on his HUD. Downside of a neural interface is you're VERY vulnerable to hackers.

The best way to take on the ghost is to get an emp weapon to shut down the machine, or get yang to hack the sharon apple AI (like what he did at the concert) and use her to kill it.

Definitely.

But wasn't Yang trying to hack Sharon when she took control of the 19's displays?

Then I complained because the stars took on an entire swarm of them and emerged undamaged.

Wing was way to super-robot for its own good.

They were androids silly. They don't know this but the same inventor of astro boy (he is even more mysterious than those 5 mad scientists that appear in the anime) created the kids especially for the gundams so that they could withstand the pressure put on them by using the gundams. The major sally girl mentioned they were not even human so maybe they have some kind of combination of nanomachines and living tissue mixed together? This also explains the survival of the cockpit exploding and hiro survives this.

No way a skinny kid like that would survive. Well that's my theory anyway. It can also explain thier superhuman reaction speed. Newtypes don't exist (see ending to gundam X), it was just a myth invented to make humans feel inferior to thier own kind (splitting them in two groups) as a distraction so the machines would take over some day by pitting them against each other. But these star androids are like the good machines that don't even know they are machines, but are still helping the humans from destroying themselves because an alien race (who the inventor borrowed the technology from) gave them souls.

It's like blade runner, one of these days the truth about the 5 gundam pilots will come out and they will realise they are replicant-like machines created as tools to keep the human wars on earth as balanced as possible to prevent the humans wiping themselves out totally like the protoculture.

Of course!

And then Optimus Prime will lead the Voltron Force against the Dinosaur Empire!

[Keith]

A. There were no mental limters. Just a physical one, which is present even on modern real-world aircraft, as I understand things.

Is it ever said there were no mental limiters? Stands to reason that in addition to limitations speed for physical safety, there'd be limiters on mental reaction time with the BDI/BCS to protect the pilots mind from overload.

B. Guld did what was necessary to beat a foe that was functioning on a totally diffrent level than him and Isamu.

I didn't say it wasn't necessary, I said it had more to do with recklessness than it did skill. He didn't defeat the Ghost because he was a better pilot than it, he defeated it because he threw away all caution for self preservation.

I am going to emphasize this over and over again, because it is patently absurd to think that a normal fighter plane with conventional controls would perform anywhere NEAR the level of an AI drone, simply becaue the drone doesn't have the soft juicy center underneath the smooth crispy outside.

And as shown, the Ghost-X9 wasn't invulnerable to suicide attack. There's no reason to believe its avionics were vastly superior to either the YF-19 or YF-21, as shown, when push came to shove, it couldn't escape. There's also no reason to believe that Isamu couldn't have taken it out had he decided to give his life in doing so.

Physically, Guld was light-years behind the Ghost, and tore his body apart while matching its maneuvers. Isamu was even FURTHER behind physically, being 100% human instead of 50% genetically-engineered warrior.

Nothing but conjecture, while Guld's BDI/BCS gave him more time to control the YF-21 when his body was destroyed, he was also an inferior pilot to Isamu (and even aside from that, different people react differently to situations). Again, had Isamu set his mind on giving up his life to take out the Ghost, he could very well have done it too.

Even if he didn't black out shortly after the fight began(as he would if the limitations of real-world humans were relevant, though they very likely weren't), he would've been unable to keep up with the Ghost simply because he would be physically incapable of manipulating his controls through the necessary maneuvers.

Only took a straight attack once locked onto the Ghost to take it out.

And I don't believe for a moment that the Ghost would politely hold still and NOT perform evasive maneuvers as Isamu got a lock and shot it. Once it starts dodging, Isamu's lost. And the Ghost can see Isamu's plane's sensors as they try to lock on, so it starts dodging as soon as he tries to get a lock.

This is the same reason that Guld and the Ghost didn't shoot each other down. Both of them could see the other's sensors, and move before a shot could be fired.

Again, conjecture, since we didn't get to see how Isamu would react against a fully A.I. opponent. Not having conventional G limitations made it more manueverable, but it didn't give it the ability to warp space & time.

Mentally, Guld was on the same level as the Ghost, due to the BDI and BCS. Isamu... wasn't. This is hard to conceive, but is at the core of why Guld HAD to be the one to fight the Ghost.

Mentally? No, the Ghost still had an imperative to preserve its own existence, Guld did not. Had the Ghost chosen to, it could have just as easily rammed Guld & been done with him.

Isamu was interpreting input from various gauges, sensor displays, and warning lights while wiggling a stick, stomping pedals, sliding a throttle, and manipulating switches.

Guld was seeing and flying. Every piece of information available from his vehicle was instantly and intuitively available. Every control of his vehicle was instantly and intuitively available.

I'm going to go and again call that conjecture, since we don't know the ful ins & outs of the BDI/BCS. We don't know that Guld was instantaniously aware of every guage reading, we don't even know how easily he processed the information flooding into his brain. He may have had to mentally alternate between the various forms of mental imput, and hell, he may have had to open his eyes to read the guages inbetween flying & taking in imput from the various camera's aroudn the YF-21. When all is said & done, Guld was still human (Zentradi & Human yes, etc), and not a machine.

In short, Isamu piloted a fighter plane, but Guld WAS a fighter plane.

Compared to Guld in the YF-21 2, Isamu was a very skilled half-blind cripple.

For all his advanced opportunities at reaction time, it didn't make Guld a better pilot

And as long as we're ranting about cheating...

Isamu didn't exactly play fair.

He was depicted several times screwing tests up just to spite Guld.

And then he went on a rampage with a stolen fighter when he was told he didn't win.

Guld didn't overtly sabotage anything to defeat Guld. Whether Guld would perceive Isamu's showing off as a distraction or not was entirely up to him. Isamu never did anything even remotely along the lines of loading live ammo into someone's gunpod to at best frame him, and at worst kill him.

Guld has one absurd and totally non-credible assassination scheme, even for a show with transforming jetplanes and 30-foot spacemen.

Non-credible? He loaded live ammo into Isamu's gunpod, call it what you will, but it was done, and it was shifty as all hell.

In the movie(which is the story as originally written, before marketing forced a lengthened version to be made) I can't think of a single bit of cheating on either side, though Isamu is a bit more reckless.

...

And still goes on a rampage with a stolen fighter when he loses.

Isamu & Guld never lost anything in that regard, and we already knew Isasmu was reckless.

He's really lucky Sharon went crazy and let him be a hero, or he would've been locked up as soon as he landed. </tangent>

337060[/snapback]

What makes you think Isamu had any intention of landing, or care for arrest. He went there to destroy the Ghost, Guld just got in his way. Worst case scenario (ironically enough), he would have (just as Guld did) commited suicide in its destruction.

Edited October 17, 2005 by Keith

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

The battroid fight showed they were about even. I dunno maybe isamu is better than guld the way max was better than milia?

Either way the competition didn't look decisive - it would be like hikaru vs roy. All I know is that I would much rather have a BDI and BCS than conventional controls. Imagine if isamu was flying the yf21 instead? His performance would probably be even better.

Guld's crappier piloting only indicates how much more advantage a yf21 would be for isamu than yf19. Because Guld's better plane compensated for his crappier ability right?

The danger of the technology is not thinking clearly. Guld can only control it safely when his mind is not wandering. (this is why he accidently almost killed dyson in the first episode, it was too sensitive).

I just think the advantages of having a VR vision and seeing through buildings as if you were superman, and looking at yourself in the third person far outweigh the dangers. If you were to fight multiple enemies at once in a team, your thought can become action. Your brain is quicker, (you just sense the enemy is there rather than turn your head around) and the muscles in your body are far more intuitive than physical controls.

I think the reason why the ghost was going to be chosen over the yf21 and yf19 was simply because all the test results showed it to be better than either of them. Even if isamu was a good enough pilot to be able to fight and "beat" the ghost, it still didn't change the reason for why a ghost would be a beter choice:

1. ace pilots are rare, ghost can be mass produced.

2. who cares if a robot dies?

3. computers think and make decisions faster than humans, (but not necessarily make wiser choices).

4. not limited as much without a pilot inside.

But because the yf21 is a better choice to fight the ghost (due to better control system - guld says he has a better chance against the ghost in the anime, and Isamu unwillingly agrees, and goes for the girl) I can safely assume yf21 was going to win the competition before the sharon apple incident. When guld had the girl after saving her from the fire, Isamu was training his ass off and getting angry because he wasn't getting the performance he needed. (the scene where he is in the simulator.) Guld just seemed happy and relaxed, where Isamu was frustrated and angry as if he was losing again. (he didn't really give a poo about myung at this point in time, only about winning the comp)

Edited October 17, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[JB0]

A. There were no mental limters. Just a physical one, which is present even on modern real-world aircraft, as I understand things.

Is it ever said there were no mental limiters? Stands to reason that in addition to limitations speed for physical safety, there'd be limiters on mental reaction time with the BDI/BCS to protect the pilots mind from overload.

No, it doesn't make sense.

The issues present are diffrent for the physical and mental aspects.

It's not possible to "overclock" the brain, so it's still processing at the same rate. That rate is what the neural interface is tied to.

If you start feeding too much data inot the brain, you won't get a brief period of super-human clarity before you go mad or burn out. You'll just get garbled signals from the overlap and be unable to "see."

B. Guld did what was necessary to beat a foe that was functioning on a totally diffrent level than him and Isamu.

I didn't say it wasn't necessary, I said it had more to do with recklessness than it did skill. He didn't defeat the Ghost because he was a better pilot than it, he defeated it because he threw away all caution for self preservation.

Saying it was recklessness implies there WAS another option.

I am going to emphasize this over and over again, because it is patently absurd to think that a normal fighter plane with conventional controls would perform anywhere NEAR the level of an AI drone, simply becaue the drone doesn't have the soft juicy center underneath the smooth crispy outside.

And as shown, the Ghost-X9 wasn't invulnerable to suicide attack. There's no reason to believe its avionics were vastly superior to either the YF-19 or YF-21, as shown, when push came to shove, it couldn't escape. There's also no reason to believe that Isamu couldn't have taken it out had he decided to give his life in doing so.

Isamu couldn't have kept up with the Ghost unless him and Guld had traded planes.

Had he chosen to give his life in the attempt, he would've rapidly lost control of his own vehicle.

...

Well, I suppose he could've pulled it off in the OVA version. But the sustained fight used in the movie wouldn't work for anyone with physical controls.

Physically, Guld was light-years behind the Ghost, and tore his body apart while matching its maneuvers. Isamu was even FURTHER behind physically, being 100% human instead of 50% genetically-engineered warrior.

Nothing but conjecture, while Guld's BDI/BCS gave him more time to control the YF-21 when his body was destroyed, he was also an inferior pilot to Isamu (and even aside from that, different people react differently to situations). Again, had Isamu set his mind on giving up his life to take out the Ghost, he could very well have done it too.

It's not conjecture. Guld was a physically stronger individual.

And he punched himself in the gut and smashed some internal organs when he opened up the throttle.

Isamu simply COULD NOT match the Ghost's maneverability. He would be PHYSICALLY UNABLE to manipulate the controls. The first high-G maneuver would see his hands ripped from the controls.

And there's still no proof that Isamu was a better pilot.

Even if he didn't black out shortly after the fight began(as he would if the limitations of real-world humans were relevant, though they very likely weren't), he would've been unable to keep up with the Ghost simply because he would be physically incapable of manipulating his controls through the necessary maneuvers.

Only took a straight attack once locked onto the Ghost to take it out.

In the OVA version.

In the originally planned movie version, it was a hell of a lot more than that.

And I don't believe for a moment that the Ghost would politely hold still and NOT perform evasive maneuvers as Isamu got a lock and shot it. Once it starts dodging, Isamu's lost. And the Ghost can see Isamu's plane's sensors as they try to lock on, so it starts dodging as soon as he tries to get a lock.

This is the same reason that Guld and the Ghost didn't shoot each other down. Both of them could see the other's sensors, and move before a shot could be fired.

Again, conjecture, since we didn't get to see how Isamu would react against a fully A.I. opponent. Not having conventional G limitations made it more manueverable, but it didn't give it the ability to warp space & time.

Doesn't need to warp space and time. Just needs to be a bit faster than the opponent.

Mentally, Guld was on the same level as the Ghost, due to the BDI and BCS. Isamu... wasn't. This is hard to conceive, but is at the core of why Guld HAD to be the one to fight the Ghost.

Mentally? No, the Ghost still had an imperative to preserve its own existence, Guld did not. Had the Ghost chosen to, it could have just as easily rammed Guld & been done with him.

Okay, allow me to rephrase.

In terms of awareness and reaction time, Guld and the Ghost were on the same level.

Isamu was interpreting input from various gauges, sensor displays, and warning lights while wiggling a stick, stomping pedals, sliding a throttle, and manipulating switches.

Guld was seeing and flying. Every piece of information available from his vehicle was instantly and intuitively available. Every control of his vehicle was instantly and intuitively available.

I'm going to go and again call that conjecture, since we don't know the ful ins & outs of the BDI/BCS. We don't know that Guld was instantaniously aware of every guage reading, we don't even know how easily he processed the information flooding into his brain. He may have had to mentally alternate between the various forms of mental imput, and hell, he may have had to open his eyes to read the guages inbetween flying & taking in imput from the various camera's aroudn the YF-21. When all is said & done, Guld was still human (Zentradi & Human yes, etc), and not a machine.

He didn't have to open his eyes. That much was made clear.

Design-wise, if they couldn't create a new sensation for a fuel gauge or ammo count, they'd hijack an existing sense. Low fuel could be represented with a hunger sensation, for example.

And even if he had to page between diffrent sensors, he could do so much faster and still had a more intuitive output.

The only really good reason to force a manual flip that I see is bandwidth restrictions. Which, admittedly, is a concern.

It's not really clear if the test sequence seen in the OVA where Guld shifts from visual to IR to XRay is demonstrating a limitation of the BDI or if it was an attempt to produce an image that, while showing a Guld's-eye view, was still intelligible to conventional eyes.

And as long as we're ranting about cheating...

Isamu didn't exactly play fair.

He was depicted several times screwing tests up just to spite Guld.

And then he went on a rampage with a stolen fighter when he was told he didn't win.

Guld didn't overtly sabotage anything to defeat Guld. Whether Guld would perceive Isamu's showing off as a distraction or not was entirely up to him. Isamu never did anything even remotely along the lines of loading live ammo into someone's gunpod to at best frame him, and at worst kill him.

He DID dive in before the test started and ram Guld's targets.

The VF-11 booster dropped into Guld's drone fight is debatable. I have my doubts Isamu could have precisely targeted the release of a malfunctioning rocket engine, but coincidence only gets you so far.

Guld has one absurd and totally non-credible assassination scheme, even for a show with transforming jetplanes and 30-foot spacemen.

Non-credible? He loaded live ammo into Isamu's gunpod, call it what you will, but it was done, and it was shifty as all hell.

He loaded live ammo into Isamu's gunpod behind paintballs and a few blanks so that Isamu would hit the blanks, believe he was out of ammo, proceed to engage Guld in melee combat, gain the upper hand, knock Guld to the ground, and proceed to sit there kicking him, all while conveniently throwing his gun to the ground in reach of the YF21's arm that he avoids damaging, so Guld could grab it and shoot Isamu.

I've always passionately hated that scene. Not because it portrayed Guld in a bad light, but because it was absurdly over-contrived to the point of complete non-believability. I simply COULD NOT suspend disbelief enough for it to be rational.

The entire OVA collapses for me right there.

In the movie(which is the story as originally written, before marketing forced a lengthened version to be made) I can't think of a single bit of cheating on either side, though Isamu is a bit more reckless.

...

And still goes on a rampage with a stolen fighter when he loses.

Isamu & Guld never lost anything in that regard, and we already knew Isasmu was reckless.

Just saying, neither side actively interferes with the other side's tests in that version of events.

He's really lucky Sharon went crazy and let him be a hero, or he would've been locked up as soon as he landed. </tangent>

What makes you think Isamu had any intention of landing, or care for arrest. He went there to destroy the Ghost, Guld just got in his way.

I don't think he had planned it that way, but it was the end result.

His space fold was a one-way trip. He lacked the capacity to leave Earth.

And after smashing the Ghost, he would've been in a very poor position to argue the point.

Worst case scenario (ironically enough), he would have (just as Guld did) commited suicide in its destruction.

*nods*

I'd gathered he intended to smash the Ghost while it was being shown off. Probably inactive on an airfield. But he might not have thought things through beyond "Kick the robot's shiny metal ass!"

Yang tagging along opened another strategy, though. Hack the Ghost.

[Keith]

I think the major issue here is that you see Guld as truly being superhuman whlie being attached to the YF-21 (which I just don't see enough proof of), and I just see him as being a normal human pilot with the opportunities for faster reaction times.

Say for instance had Guld been set against Max, who was shown to have a natural/supernatural pilotting ability & awareness, Guld would still lose in my eyes.

[JB0]

I think the major issue here is that you see Guld as truly being superhuman whlie being attached to the YF-21 (which I just don't see enough proof of), and I just see him as being a normal human pilot with the opportunities for faster reaction times.

Say for instance had Guld been set against Max, who was shown to have a natural/supernatural pilotting ability & awareness, Guld would still lose in my eyes.

I'd give even odds in that situation, unless Max dragged out his VF-1.

[eugimon]

just to throw my two cents into the ring.. I think it was shown pretty clearly that isamu was outflying guld even with the more traditional flight controls. pretty much in every scene, isamu was one upping guld.

I think guld was able to take out the ghost because he could overide the physical limiters and crash the 21 into the ghost... this does not mean that guld was a better pilot than Isamu.

the mission simply called for different role players and they each did their own part.... the two fought to a stand still in the city for how long? It was pretty clear that guld was trying his best to kill Isamu and Isamu was pulling his punches and never went for a killing move...

now, max on the other hand, is a whole different level and given comparable fighters, would have wiped the floor with either of them or both of them together.

[Final Vegeta]

He loaded live ammo into Isamu's gunpod behind paintballs and a few blanks so that Isamu would hit the blanks, believe he was out of ammo, proceed to engage Guld in melee combat, gain the upper hand, knock Guld to the ground, and proceed to sit there kicking him, all while conveniently throwing his gun to the ground in reach of the YF21's arm that he avoids damaging, so Guld could grab it and shoot Isamu.

I've always passionately hated that scene. Not because it portrayed Guld in a bad light, but because it was absurdly over-contrived to the point of complete non-believability. I simply COULD NOT suspend disbelief enough for it to be rational.

The entire OVA collapses for me right there.

There was a more plausible option in reconstructing what the scene meant: Guld loaded live ammo in YF-19's gunpod because he expected Isamu to fire them. He put some blank to be warned that live ammo was coming; he trusted his skill to survive that moment. That way Isamu was supposed to be expelled from the competition with just a calculated risk. In the real fight though things went in another way.

FV

[Sumdumgai]

It's not possible to "overclock" the brain, so it's still processing at the same rate. That rate is what the neural interface is tied to.

If you start feeding too much data inot the brain, you won't get a brief period of super-human clarity before you go mad or burn out. You'll just get garbled signals from the overlap and be unable to "see."

It's possible to overload the brain with information. That's why people pass out when they recieve really good or really bad news.

And as shown, the Ghost-X9 wasn't invulnerable to suicide attack. There's no reason to believe its avionics were vastly superior to either the YF-19 or YF-21, as shown, when push came to shove, it couldn't escape.  There's also no reason to believe that Isamu couldn't have taken it out had he decided to give his life in doing so.

Isamu couldn't have kept up with the Ghost unless him and Guld had traded planes.

Isamu wouldn't have been able to take it out. The YF-21 got it's arms and legs blown off during the fight, the YF-19 would have been finished with the loss of the legs. The YF-21 was still capable of flight due to it's different design.

Isamu would have lost control at the high speeds that he would need to maintain to catch a fleeing ghost. He repeatedly lost control in the simulators and crashed. And again, his body would have given out at the high speeds and g-forces. Guld could continue to see using the BDI system, long after his eyes had popped.

And there's still no proof that Isamu was a better pilot.

Roger that.

Even if he didn't black out shortly after the fight began(as he would if the limitations of real-world humans were relevant, though they very likely weren't), he would've been unable to keep up with the Ghost simply because he would be physically incapable of manipulating his controls through the necessary maneuvers.

Only took a straight attack once locked onto the Ghost to take it out.

In the OVA version.

In the originally planned movie version, it was a hell of a lot more than that.

Since the movie version is the original story, I regard the OVA as fluff.

I saw Guld loading the YF-19 with ammo more as an attempt to get Isamu in trouble for shooting Guld, rather than Guld managing to get the gunpod and shoot Isamu.

To take down a ghost:

1) Come in from above from very far away.

2) Use a reflex warhead, nuke the bastard. If it's not taken down by the blast, the EMP will take it down.

or

You and your teamate keep dodging until it's out of ammo. Then you unleash hell on it, trying to attack it together to make it harder to dodge, especially when there's two pairs of lasers going after it. Yeah try to get it near the ground or in a city setting where it's maneuverability will be hindered. And remember, your PPB system is your friend!

[JB0]

To take down a ghost:

1) Come in from above from very far away.

2) Use a reflex warhead, nuke the bastard.  If it's not taken down by the blast, the EMP will take it down.

Best plan yet.

Nukes solve everything.

You and your teamate keep dodging until it's out of ammo. 

Primary weapon seems to be lasers. It'll run out of fuel before it runs out of ammo.

If you can dodge it long enough to drain the tanks, that's another valid strategy. Personally, I'd rather not play an endurance game with a computer.

Then you unleash hell on it, trying to attack it together to make it harder to dodge, especially when there's two pairs of lasers going after it.  Yeah try to get it near the ground or in a city setting where  it's maneuverability will be hindered.  And remember, your PPB system is your friend!

Yes.

PPB = love.

Preferably with an automated or readily-accessable mechanism for moving the disks to intercept. Near as I could tell, they were still using manually-positioned barrier disks, which would be a serious performance damper in most situations.