Macross TV Dub

[Keith]

Bottom line, something that's good will outlast boatloads of crap. That's why it's important to maintain artistic integrity, not for the buck, not for the now, but for longevity far past the present.

Dubs are ass, always have been, always will be. Subtitles change nothing, as I said, even if the translation is off, the original content of what's there still exists in the original language.

[Hurin]

Subtitles change nothing

Okay. It's official. There's no reasoning with you. I'm picturing you holding your hands over your ears and rythmically repeating: "Subtitles are perfect! They change nothing!"

the original content of what's there still exists in the original language.

And it does you a whole helluva lot of good when you can't understand Japanese, eh?

Oh good! The "original context" is there for the three or four people who buy the english english subtitled version of the anime and speak Japanese! Woohoo! Of course, if you speak Japanese, why would you buy the english subtitled version to begin with?

Standard disclaimer: Once again, I prefer subtitles. I like to read the translation while still getting the original voice actors' tone and inflection. But, I'm finding the anti-dub elitism here to be somewhat comical.

H

[Keith]

You're the one being unreasonable. As I've said, the subtitle translation changes nothing of the original work, especially now that you can turn them off, which indeed makes it the same as watching it with no translation, i.e. nothing of the original is changed.

With dubs, (while you can when lucky enough switch back to the original audio) the piece is indeed changes into something other than what it was created to be.

A simple concept.

[JB0]

With dubs, (while you can when lucky enough switch back to the original audio) the piece is indeed changes into something other than what it was created to be.

A simple concept.

Not so simple as you make it out to be, really.

An alternate point of view is that the piece was created to be easily accessable, and having it in a foreign language and subtitled detracts from that accessability.

So is it more important to maintain the exact physical nature of the production as it was originally released, or the spirit of the production as the creators intended?

[Kamion]

Here is Mari Iijima's comments on taking on Minmei again.

Mari Iijima's comment on taking on Minmei again

[Hurin]

As I've said, the subtitle translation changes nothing of the original work, especially now that you can turn them off, which indeed makes it the same as watching it with no translation, i.e. nothing of the original is changed.

339190[/snapback]

Keith. You're just being wilfully obtuse. The "original work" is in Japanese for a Japanese audience. When it is translated, it is altered. . . and try as you might, as long as you aren't (very) fluent in Japanese, you will never appreciate the artist's "original intent" whether you watch it through dubs or subs.

Now, you can say one is closer to it than the other. . . but to bash dubs so vociferously (and, by extension, those who like them) while simultaneously putting subs on a pedestal of perfection is just ridiculous.

Standard disclaimer: Once again, I prefer subtitles. I like to read the translation while still getting the original voice actors' tone and inflection. But, I'm finding the anti-dub elitism here to be somewhat comical.

[isamu]

If Mari Iijima sings We Will Win or Stagefright, the destruction of Macross will be complete.

338882[/snapback]

LMAO

I'm sure she will do an exceptional job. Good for you Mari.

Oh and I personally think they should bring Tony Oliver back for the Hikaru dub. He's a fantastic VA(see Gungrave).

[isamu]

If Mari Iijima sings We Will Win or Stagefright, the destruction of Macross will be complete.

338882[/snapback]

LMAO

I'm sure she will do an exceptional job. Good for you Mari.

Oh and I personally think they should bring Tony Oliver back for the Hikaru dub. He's a fantastic VA(see Gungrave).

[farmer_yohei]

Ya know, with all this talk of dub vs. sub. I can't help but think whether or not there are nerds in japan who argue over whether or not its okay to watch a show in english or dubbed.

[bsu legato]

Has there been any word on a potential double dip of Mospeada as well? After all, it too fell under that "Robotech is the official english dub" heading, and we all know how well HG sticks to their word.

[Pat Payne]

Here is Mari Iijima's comments on taking on Minmei again.

Mari Iijima's comment on taking on Minmei again

339196[/snapback]

Wow. So it's official. Mari Iijima IS returning to VA work as the English voice of Minmay. I can't wait till January.

[Roy Focker]

I'm just saying that I'm beyond all joking in saying that people are stupid and uneducated for what is basically an astethic choice is beneath us.

There are things called low brow and high brow entertainment. If on TV say Schinlers List was playing back to back with private Ryan and same time Wrestle Mania was being played live for free we might find more people watching wrestling. I think all worth watching but I think wrestling is just a tad less important and would fall under the low brow catagory yet the masses may want to watch it over the other two because face it the masses like stupid entertainment. How in the hell do you explain Urkel, Perfect Strangers, Full House and the rest of ABC Classic TGF? The masses are stupid and like stupid stuff. Its the only logical answer.

Same thing goes for most imported Anime. Now the problem of making Macross or Anime in general more main stream friendly is that you are shaping it towards their wants or what you think they want. Where is the limit on compromises in importing something over? If left unchecked to import for the sake of making it more friendly to the masses it could led to a product that is quite different from the original. Some might say new Macross is good no matter what. I say that if you cater to the wants of the masses you'll might end up with is something that is not Macross.

I do not like people being dismissed as stupid or uneducated or what have you because they aren't in the "in" crowd, or don't know the "secret handshake."

Think I was the most popular kid in school? Only difference between me and you is I'm not as scared. Do I think people who like dubs and main stream anime that you can find on Cartoon Network and Mass Retailers are beneath me? Why yes. Have you seen that crap that is avaliable.

I think they can all be both different and inferior to those who are as great and think like me.

That is an appalling statement, beneath any further comment.

Yeah its appalling. Damn straight it is and the truth. You know whats more appalling that there are idiots that honestly believe all the crap that come from my ass.

Can you even try to take this debate seriously, or are you going to merely dismiss every argument as being somehow moronic because it doesn't conform to some narrow conception of yours as to how the world should work? I don't hold with ad hominem attacks either (such as "this time of the month" or "your brain is fried," none of which advance what should be a civil, if forceful, debate one iota), fellah. If you notice, I have not once directly attacked YOU personally, but merely your ideas. I request the same courtesy.

Can I take this debate seriously hmmm. Can you take it without being apalled or offended by every little thing? When one is too serious about a subject your just making things too easy.

The purity of art my ass. The sound of a cash register ringing that buys you the freedom to keep making your art is the purest sound you'll ever hear in your life. And I gotta suspect some of this elitist rage comes from guys who had artistic endeavors and never broke through or never had the jones to pull the trigger.

Yes greed is good. We like money and money likes us too. Money makes the world go around. Every thing done for money has been for good.

[JB0]

Has there been any word on a potential double dip of Mospeada as well? After all, it too fell under that "Robotech is the official english dub" heading, and we all know how well HG sticks to their word. 

339244[/snapback]

I'd bet it'll come out shortly after dubbed Macross.

They'll pr'ly skip Southern Cross, as the people that cared in the first place seem to be very few.

[Gabe Q]

Here is Mari Iijima's comments on taking on Minmei again.

Mari Iijima's comment on taking on Minmei again

339196[/snapback]

It sounds like she's gonna put everything she has into this project. She didn't want anyone else to play the role. It sounds like they're trying to do this the right way.

[EXO]

I'm just gonna have to say that inviting Mari to this last MWCon is responsible for her acceptance of playing Minmay! haha....

I just hope she comes back and sings next year like she said she would.

[Skull Leader]

Mari Iijima for the dubbed macross project= Good.

The thought of having to listen to Tony Oliver's voice again would make me want to nuke a gay whale.

Seriously... Tony Oliver blows dead bears.

I will reiterate my statement that about the only members of the original cast that DESERVE to be recalled are Dan Warren (for the role of Roy Focker), and Cam Clarke (but NOT as Max Jenius, only Quamzin)

[Jasonc]

Well, I'm happy to see Mari play Minmay again. This whole debate over Sub and Dub is really ridiculous... Sometimes a comment said in one language doesn't mean the same when translated to another language, so the original meaning gets lost in translation. So, with that said, most people who read a subbed movie or show may miss what is really said. Now, Mari doing Minmay again and how she feels about it is great. Dubbed sometimes isn't just translating, it's a matter of making it appeal to the audience of that language.

I do feel the same as many that most recent dubs have been pretty shotty at best, and the cutesie voices many of these shows come out with don't fit the character, but it's not there for stupid people, the U.S. just usually markets their dubbed shows for kids, whereas I believe in Japan it's marketed to span through with a larger agae range.

As much as we can all complain about Dubs and quality, when Rurouni Kenshin first came out here, nobody wanted to pick it up. there were the subbed loyalists, who got it, but when it was packaged as a dub as well, that version sold 4-1 over the dubbed versions. I think we should be happy they are doing this. I do know from a valuable source at ADV that the original Japanese audio will be available with English subs that can be turned on and off, and the new English vocals with subs for that as well. Just look at it as being able to get them on better quality discs. My Animeigo discs are getting worse.

[Pat Payne]

Same thing goes for most imported Anime.  Now the problem of making Macross or Anime in general more main stream friendly is that you are shaping it towards their wants or what you think they want.  Where is the limit on compromises in importing something over?

If you don't mind, I think I'll give my own midset on that one with a parable: A lower-class man, a plebian, is invited to dinner with the Emperor Augustus in Ancient Rome. Augustus' stewards place three goblets in front of the man. He's told that the first contains high-quality, undiluted Falernian wine. The second, has watered-down posca (a cheap wine in Rome). The third contains hemlock. Augustus asks him which he will drink. The man stutters and thinks for a moment before answering. "Highness," he says, "I will, for the nonce, take the middle cup, with the posca." "Why?" asks mighty Augustus. "I have never had Falernian wine," the plebian replies, "and fear it is too rich for my palette all at once. And, begging your Highness' pardon, no man will willingly take hemlock unless forced to. I beg leave to drink the posca and sip at the Falernian until such time as I can have more of it at one go."

So it is with our hypothetical anime fan. They have not, probably, had any uncut subs (the Falernian) under them if they're getting their anime from CN (watered-down posca). But give them time, and they'll discover them. I doubt, given ADV's track record with Southern Cross and Mospeada, that they're going to give us something like the "tricked out" Initial D (hemlock) for their Macross release to catch the young fans. I wager it'll be like ADV's Gatchaman, a release meant for older anime fans.

That is an appalling statement, beneath any further comment.

Yeah its appalling. Damn straight it is and the truth. You know whats more appalling that there are idiots that honestly believe all the crap that come from my ass.

I'll give you this one -- I do have a tendency to get on my high horse at times when my Irish is up. (But please -- I'm no idiot. ) And like I said, I was never trying to turn it into a catfight...I just get passionate about these things. I'm an Orwellian -- I don't like even the appearance of people being pushed around or segregated.

I do not like people being dismissed as stupid or uneducated or what have you because they aren't in the "in" crowd, or don't know the "secret handshake."

Think I was the most popular kid in school? Only difference between me and you is I'm not as scared.

I think you left out an "r" there.

[Twoducks]

Same thing goes for most imported Anime. Now the problem of making Macross or Anime in general more main stream friendly is that you are shaping it towards their wants or what you think they want. Where is the limit on compromises in importing something over? If left unchecked to import for the sake of making it more friendly to the masses it could led to a product that is quite different from the original. Some might say new Macross is good no matter what. I say that if you cater to the wants of the masses you'll might end up with is something that is not Macross.

They already did that, it’s called Robotech and thanks to this series I discovered a series called Macross which I greatly enjoy. The same can happen again to other people.

Do I think people who like dubs and main stream anime that you can find on Cartoon Network and Mass Retailers are beneath me? Why yes. Have you seen that crap that is avaliable.

Well, if you're comparing yourself to kids (the primary target of main stream anime) then its normal to feel superior because they're just immature kids and your a grownup. There has to be a difference after all, if not, what would be the point of growing up? I wouldn't brag about knowing more that a kid though. And even then your just superior in the knowledge of 20 something cartoons, in other things you might be inferior (I know kids that can swim or run faster than I can or that can memorize more stuff).

[Sundown]

The purity of art my ass. The sound of a cash register ringing that buys you the freedom to keep making your art is the purest sound you'll ever hear in your life. And I gotta suspect some of this elitist rage comes from guys who had artistic endeavors and never broke through or never had the jones to pull the trigger.

You know, this got me thinking. It's odd for us to pretend to have a say in the artistic integrity of a certain work of fiction when none of us have anything to do with its creation, and none of us feel the effects the creators do whether they alter their creation to make it more accessible or not.

We can agree or disagree with a decision but we hardly have the right to suggest how things simply and absolutely should be or shouldn't be.

And finally, I would readily debate whether dubs automatically render a film or work less faithful artistically. If a dub was so well written and delivered that it actually conveyed the subtleties that were present within the original language, I would consider it to be more faithful artistically than a subtitle that didn't. And most subtitles, frankly, don't. The language is more often than not simplistic, unartistic, and makes for lousy dialogue and prose... the audience is often left to fill in the gaps based on their own understanding.

And frankly, it doesn't matter if the subtleties actually "exist" there in the original language soundtrack, if the viewer cannot understand and experience these subtleties. It benefits no one if they remain no more than incoherent sounds... however faithful to the original those incoherent sounds are... the artistry is in effect lost, because the work simply fails to express.

-Al

Edited October 25, 2005 by Sundown

[danth]

I used to like dubs better because I didn't want to "read" anime, but now I like subs better because I don't want to hear annoying voice acting. Sure, the Japanese voice acting might be bad too, but I'll never know since I don't know any Japanese.

[Pat Payne]

I used to like dubs better because I didn't want to "read" anime, but now I like subs better because I don't want to hear annoying voice acting. Sure, the Japanese voice acting might be bad too, but I'll never know since I don't know any Japanese.

339393[/snapback]

That's usually where I fall on dubs -- I just plain don't like a lot of the voice acting in 'em. Some, like Cowboy Bebop are enjoyable to listen to, but a lot of them are just poor, IMHO.

[Keith]

Again, no dub will "ever" be able to top a subtitled version simply because subtitled versions aren't 100% dependant on the subtitles or their translation, hell, it's barely 50% dependand on it. The rest of the experience when watching subtitled is hearing the performance & emotion of the original actor who played the part, regardless of whether you understand what they're saying or not, you can feel what they're putting into it, the way the director intended them to put it in.

Back to the Mari thing though, it's very cool that she's finally sat & watched the whole show (hopefully she'll watch the movie too), and this is bound to be interesting one way or another. I can't help but think ADV's true intnetion in bringing her in on the dub is the hope that rabid Japanese Macross fans will import the disc's just to hear Mari's new performance.

Edited October 25, 2005 by Keith

[Roy Focker]

Interesting thing about Mari comments.

Is she back tracking her stance isn't she?

I've always got the idea from various sources that she considered Macross a double edge sword. Greatful for the experience but felt type casted. Yes she maintain a following that like her for other music beside Macross. Maybe if she never did Macross she would be bigger. Odds are her popularity would be the same. Thats just the music biz.

Now she had decided, "You know what? Macross wasn't really that bad. I had a part in making good TV but my acting could of been better. What you want me to voice Minmay again? Why sure I'll do it!" If it true thats cool but seems back tracking on earlier attitudes. I would also accepted, "I want send my kids to good colleges." Yes I think its possible that she may have warmed up and accepted Macross but would she be as happy about it as I'm getting from the tone of those comments?

Then again who am I to doubt the power of the floating's head creation...

As for her new performance of Minmay. Her previous youthful inexperience as an actor was perfect for the character. Minmay still needs some of that vibe.

[Hurin]

Would anyone object if they messed with things a little bit and had her sing "Do You Remember Love?" from the movie for the big battle episode (Farewell to Tenderness)?

I always felt that one of the few things RT did right was to introduce a new song ("We Will Win") at that crucial point in the series that was appropriate to the plot at that point. . . and I'm loathe to admit it, but by RT standards, that song wasn't too terribly bad.

I was a bit disappointed watching SDF Macross for the first time when that point arrived and we merely got another freakin' dose of "My Boyfriend is a Pilot", etc. Instead of something dramatic and uplifting, it was time for "Kyun kyun! Kyun kyun!". . .

I'm sure the purists would howl. But I think it might be cool if they did it. (no, there is no word that they are even considering this. This is all from my fevered little imagination.)

H

Edit: Some clarification of song titles and sources.

Edited October 25, 2005 by Hurin

[EXO]

Interesting thing about Mari comments.

Is she back tracking her stance isn't she?

I've always got the idea from various sources that she considered Macross a double edge sword.  Greatful for the experience but felt type casted.  Yes she maintain a following that like her for other music beside Macross.  Maybe if she never did Macross she would be bigger.  Odds are her popularity would be the same.  Thats just the music biz. 

Now she had decided, "You know what?  Macross wasn't really that bad.  I had a part in making good TV but my acting could of been better.  What you want me to voice Minmay again?  Why sure I'll do it!"  If it true thats cool but seems back tracking on earlier attitudes.    I would also accepted, "I want send my kids to good colleges."  Yes I think its possible that she may have warmed up and accepted Macross but would she be as happy about it as I'm getting from the tone of those comments?

Then again who am I to doubt the power of the floating's head creation...

As for her new performance of Minmay.  Her previous youthful inexperience as an actor was perfect for the character.  Minmay still needs some of that vibe.

339490[/snapback]

Per Mari in one of her concerts, she said that she always loved the Macross experience. It was the fact that her fans wouldn't let her get passed the fact that she's Minmay and get over it enough so that she can get thru a set of her own songs during her concerts (man I am terribly paraphrasing it, but I'm sure I'm saying it better than she did.)

[anim3vboi]

I felt the music from robotech doesnt even compare to Macross. All of Minmay's/Mari's songs are focused on love which sets a much different tone then the robotech songs. First of all their theme song sounded like a war march, it seemed to glorify the fighting much more than the actual love story. And her songs really didnt carry much weight except for the "we will win" song which further emphasizes the theme of war more than love. I thought only one song was decent. Which was the one that goes " its you that i cant leave behind" yeah that actually went pretty parrallel with "Love drifts away" by setting a sad tune. Listening to both soundtracks especially the kareoke versions on disc two. I realized the instrumentals for the macross songs are much better as well. Anyway sorry for the rant. Back on topic, im really excited to see Mari Reprising her role. This dub release might turn out well afterall.

[DeathHammer]

Please Delete Thanks

Edited February 8, 2010 by DeathHammer

[The Shade]

I wonder if the episode narrations ala Robotech will show up at all. Some people didn't like them, I found them interesting. Would be pretty useful too during the episodes with the post Rain of Death time gaps too.

339516[/snapback]

Oh dear God no! Please, for the love of God don't have any narration beyond what was already there in the Japanese version. A few year ago, when I was watching RT, that was one of the things that really irked me. At one point, I just wanted that narrator to shut up; it felt like he just wanted to hear himself talk.

[phoenix01]

Has there been any word on a potential double dip of Mospeada as well? After all, it too fell under that "Robotech is the official english dub" heading, and we all know how well HG sticks to their word. 

339244[/snapback]

I'd bet it'll come out shortly after dubbed Macross.

They'll pr'ly skip Southern Cross, as the people that cared in the first place seem to be very few.

339310[/snapback]

Don't let 1st Border Red Devil hear you say that.

[Pat Payne]

Would anyone object if they messed with things a little bit and had her sing "Do You Remember Love?" from the movie for the big battle episode (Farewell to Tenderness)?

I wouldn't mind, but it's not feasable. I actually tried timing DYRL with Bodolza's battle, and IIRC, the battle scene was too short, oddly enough.

[Hurin]

Oh dear God no!  Please, for the love of God don't have any narration beyond what was already there in the Japanese version.  A few year ago, when I was watching RT, that was one of the things that really irked me.  At one point, I just wanted that narrator to shut up; it felt like he just wanted to hear himself talk.

339523[/snapback]

The best example of this is when Hikaru is standing in that field of flowers post-rain-of-death. . . and then he starts daydreaming about Roy flying his old biplane, etc. The scene is very poignant in the original Macross and there is absolutely no dialog as Hikaru just stares off into space and the pollen blows past him. . . and the flashback takes place.

In RT, they have Rick Hunter ramble on and on and on throughout the entire scene, basically re-hashing the entire plot of the series for everyone up until that point.

A great example of how onne is for kids. The other is not.

H

Edited October 25, 2005 by Hurin

[bandit29]

Macross will now be on 7 DVDs. I assume dual layer.

Macross Disc Count Revealed (12:36 PM EDT): According to information posted in the forums by ADV's David Williams, their release of the Macross series will be on seven volumes total.

http://www.animeondvd.com/

People have been asking so I'll let you know here, Macross will be a 7 disc release. I believe 6 eps on the first disc and 5 on each disc after. More details on the release to follow in the near future.

http://forums.animeondvd.com/showthreaded....ed&sb=5&o=&vc=1

Edited October 25, 2005 by dejr8bud

[Roy Focker]

As for replacing the song. Well the theme from 'Do You Remember Love' was pretty much movie plot point specific. Misa translates found lyrics, Hikaru slaps Minmay until she agrees to sing them. The song loses its movie meaning if played in the series for no reason.

Now prehaps a new song for Minmay written by Mari would be different.

[Hikaru Ichijou]

Well, she did write/perform a new Minmei song in (mostly) English for a CD not too long ago. It probably wouldn't work for the battle, but might work elsewhere...