ok help me out

[SpacePirateNeko]

Right now i have a decision that needs to be made and i cant decide i have no real guidance on these issues..i cant rely on the schools counselor as its her job to sell me the school

Tomorrow i go to orientation at Art Institute for game art and design

Amongst many of the things id love to do with art i have decided video game design is the most prevelant and covers all the bases..plus its something id love to do

Heres the thing AI is expensive and i get ZERO grants ....so the only thing i can rely on is loans....which ill most likely be paying back until im dead since ai is 75k for the full 3+ years

I really just dont know what to do i mean couldnt i just go to cal state long beach which is literally right down the block and get similiar skills with their art program at a much smaller price?

My time is running out im already 26 , why is this so easy for everyone else but i keep having issues...i mean its what i really wanna do , its what i grew up loving , and the idea of having to do airport security crap forever makes me want to put a bullet in my head

It seems everyone i know easily went to school...got soime grants maybe got some smaller loans, ugh and they are always telling me how easy it is, im thinking cal state might be better but then im worries ugh i have to wait ANOTHER semester to start it and then maybe it wont have classes i would need

any game designers here or concept artists? where did you go and what did you do..and please dont give me the whole ordeal about it being a small field and how its tough to break into oversaturted etc..i know these things and frankly its something i cant dwell on or care about

[Radd]

Go to both schools.

That is to say, visit them. See for yourself what they do in their classes. Talk to students and teachers, see what they have to say. When talking with students, especially try to find those nearing the end of their schooling. Ask them what they thought of the school, the equipment, the instructers, job placement programs, internships, everything. Also look at their work, see how it looks. Talk to as many as you possibly can.

Also remember that in this field, more than many others, internships are important. Ask about the school's internship programs. The experience alone will go a long way towards getting you a job once you're out of school. You can have the best portfolio in your class, but if you've no real world experience then you'll probably have a tought time getting your foot in the door.

[Felix]

I have taught art and design on all levels from elementary school age kids right on up through university age students. A vast majority of that time was spent teaching high schoolers, and I frequently answered this type of question.

There is an AI franchise here in the area, and so they do a lot of recruiting in the high schools. Yes, it is expensive to go there, and their programs are geared at getting people jobs in the industry, but what they do not tell you is that they are not part of ANY university system. That means that they have no accreditation from a regional association of colleges and schools. What that means is that essentially their degrees are worthless if you ever want to get an advanced diploma.

To put that into perspective lets look at an example. If you get an AI degree, a job in the industry, and then realize that, you need to work toward an MFA in order to advance your career you cannot because most Universities will not acknowledge the credits/degree of a non-accredited school. Now they might accept some of your credits and allow you to work toward a BFA at their school, but this is really a judgment call by the Art and Design department of each specific University. Now is a good time to mention that a vast majority of the Art and Design Professors I know look down on AI as being beneath their notice. There is a fairly large bias against this type of franchise school in the world of higher education.

Is this justified? Not in my opinion, but I do know that AI is expensive and offers a degree that makes it difficult to go back to school and work toward an MFA.

So..........It has been my experience that getting an art degree at a local University is a much better way to go. If you love it and want to go on then you can. Credits from inside the University system generally transfer one to one. In addition, University systems across the US honor the degrees of other University systems, so if you get a BFA in California, and then want to go to NYU for graduate school it only becomes an issue of being accepted to NYU.

Now let me talk about degrees. There has been a recent movement in the world of art education toward more specialized degrees, like game art. This has been a result of many universities looking for a way to incorporate as much technology as they possibly can into each department.

Now I am not saying that technology is not an important part of art these days, but the reality of computer art is that it is just another medium, like paint, or pen and ink, or pastel… It is not a substitution for actually knowing how to draw…This is key. A BFA from a University is going to concentrate on teaching you how to create art in the traditional sense: Drawing, painting, sculpture, printmaking, and design. AI is going to teach you how to use technology to create images and animations not how to be an artist. Now I will not say that you will not have to take drawing or painting classes, but the emphasis is on teaching you technology NOT technique. Technique is acquired trough years of study using a variety of different media (including technology).

Now put yourself in the shoes of an employer. Which would you rather have working for you: Someone who is a trained artist or someone who is a computer tech with some art training?

Radd is right, internships are key in almost all of areas of the art world. That means working long hours for free just to get your foot in the door. Be prepared for this. It stinks, but those of us in the art world have all had to do it.

Finally, a vast majority of concept artists that I have known have had a variety of degrees from different Universities. What they all have in common is a VAST portfolio of high quality work.

It is good to see that you are not concerned about the amount of hard work that you are facing. The key is to work constantly, and get as much as you can in your portfolio. Diversity, range, and quality are what I look for in a good portfolio when I am working on senior portfolios with my college students, because that is what the industry is looking for as well as graduate schools.

Good luck and keep us posted…..let me know if there is anything I can do to help.

[Ghadrack]

Great post Felix, it is a serious pain in the butt when you realize that you need continuing education and a limited with an uncreditted degree that won't permit you to advance without essentially re-training for years just to get the right piece of paper.

Good luck Spacepirate!

[Mr March]

The decision has already been made, and it's to go. It sounds like you've already discovered what you REALLY want to be doing, you're just experiencing anxiety over the actual commitment and trepidation at the difficulty you can see in the future.

Commit to AI, take the hit, and go where life leads you.

[SpacePirateNeko]

well what college near lakewood, as in BUS distance offers the classes i need ie TONS of art classes of all medias to help build a portfolio..job placement is also a help. Right now i work an unbendable job but fortunately it ends at 1230 in teh afternoon leaving me open for evening classes.

Im looking at cal state long beach and they seem to only know liberal arts.

Edited September 30, 2005 by SpacePirateNeko

[Felix]

Does Cal-State Longbeach offer BFA programs in graphic design or studio?

[Radd]

I don't have many kind words to describe my AI experience, if you do wind up there be prepared to fight tooth and claw for the classes you need.

Of course, I went to the one in Pittsburgh. I've no idea how similar the different schools are, wich is why I strongly suggest speaking with students.

[Solscud007]

I dunno if this is any help, but a friend of mine who programs games for disney went to Carnegie Mellon. Its close to Fulcy!!! anyway thier Entertainment Technology graduate program is one of the best in the nation. You get a masters and its pretty much all about making video games.

[Jemstone]

Check your PM box.

[Felix]

I dunno if this is any help, but a friend of mine who programs games for disney went to Carnegie Mellon. Its close to Fulcy!!! anyway thier Entertainment Technology graduate program is one of the best in the nation. You get a masters and its pretty much all about making video games.

332843[/snapback]

You are right Carnegie Mellon is excellent....And way more reputable than AI.

When it comes to higer education you would be surprised how much reputation has to do with it....

Edited September 30, 2005 by Felix

[SpacePirateNeko]

cal state long beach classes are closed for spring already a shame since it takes me literally 15 mins by bus to get there.

I have decided to go with santa monica college art division.

http://academy.smc.edu/

i just need guidance on classes which hopefully a couselor can provide, and yea i wish i could do free internships but realistically i support myelf dont and couldnt reciece any financial help from any parents and living in any school type of housing is definately not on an option so thus i must work at present a full job which sucks the life out of me.

If i could i would work , go to school , and intern but i fear theres just not enough hours in the day for that. As it stands i only sleep about 3 hours of sleep a night.

Ok so let me explain my goals, you can call them silly if you want or you can laugh me out of the forums i wont mind but if im to be helped in direction i might as well fully explain my goals.

I want to design games, concept art mainly but would love to be fully involved in any part of the game if possible. I would not be picky of course nor could afford to be and i am not against bending ideas i just want to work in the industry that would make ME happy and would be a life i wouldnt mind living.

I am not however againts working in fields related such as animation and movies or even illustration if it related to books or comics. Thats just to make it clear that im not adverse to other fields of a simialar nature.

Idealistically and i hate using that word because it implies not-realistically which couldnt be further from the truth in my mind, i would love to make games in japan. Why? Because as a country ive been to on occasions its a place i felt most creative . comforatable and frankly a place i love being at. Of course this isnt of importance now but i felt i should put the "where do you see yoruself in 5 years" goal in retrospect.

At any rate going to smc i can always transfer to university of long beach at a later date.

[Agent ONE]

If I were you, I'd join the USMC. They pay you to kill people, and that rules.

[Felix]

Ususally internships are a part of any BFA/MFA program. I know an internship was part of mine, and I did, in fact, give up sleeping there for awhile

Anyway, I get the idea that money is an issue. May I ask what Nationality/Race/Religon you are? You would be surprised how much financial aide money there is out there for people of all types...Not to mention there are many federal programs that can provide assistance for people looking to go back to school. Talk to a financial aide advisor at the school and see if they can help. Heck even a standard Stafford student loan is better than most loans you can get from financial institutions. There is money to be hadall you have to do is find it....Heck the internet is full of scolarship search engines. Can't hurt to look....

A couple of years ago I found a full ride for an Asian girl that was in one of my classes simply because the university had very few Asian females enrolled in their Graduate program. Now admittedly the school was in North Carolina, but it was a free ride at a University.

[Jemstone]

Well, like I said if you have more specific questions, just PM me. I've worked in the field, have colleagues that still do and if anything can give you a bit of direction of what courses are best for you.

While on topic, Exo, what ever happened to YOUR portfolio?

[Noriko Takaya]

If I were you, I'd join the USMC.  They pay you to kill people, and that rules.

332862[/snapback]

They pay you!? Damn, I guess my 4 years in the Corps were just for fun then.

[SpacePirateNeko]

Well, like I said if you have more specific questions, just PM me. I've worked in the field, have colleagues that still do and if anything can give you a bit of direction of what courses are best for you.

While on topic, Exo, what ever happened to YOUR portfolio?

332868[/snapback]

oh sorry jem when i wrote that second part your reply wasnt there yet , i started writing it , went to mitsuwa , ate , went to the bookstore, picked up a hobby japan, shopped through the supermarket , came home and then hit the "add reply" button

ill check it now thanks

In reply about financial aid i am a whitey so nadda there , i had already did the whole financial aid thing and was unable to get any grants but was only able to get strafford loan and another loan ( with a cosigner), either way i decided FOR NOW smc is best for me and then after awhile i can see where i can go from there but at least its a start and i wont be broke

According to fafsa if you live alone with no support such as i do the only way to get a grant is to make under 9k a year .....so said the guidance couselor

Thanks for all your help i really appreciate it

A1 who needs the marine corp theres plenty of targets here in LA

[sabretooth]

dude speaking as someone who has dealt with ai and other psueado schools, you will get no where with these programs. anybody who went to ai or smc prove me wrong. in order to break into the field you need a badder then bad ass demo reel or be related to someone who is industry. post a pic and i will be happy to tell you what i mean. any reels of well known characters will and are tossed, it's all about style and what you can offer and not sporting the atypical ai portfolio and give you nothing but debt. to hell with ai and smc if you are 26 and trying to break into the industry you really need something that will make people say "damn" anything else will just be a waste of time.

time factor: if you grad in 3-4 years you will be 29-30 trying toi compete with 19-20 yr olds who will eat you alive, that is a fact, software is a cruel mistress and going against kids raised on this stuff is a very bad idea. save your cash and develop your portfoilio on your own or hook up with people from otis or art center, what they are doing will shock and amaze you...makes ai look like pre-k.

Edited October 1, 2005 by sabretooth

[Solscud007]

save your cash and develop your portfoilio on your own or hook up with people from otis or art center, what they are doing will shock and amaze you...makes ai look like pre-k.

333052[/snapback]

true dat!!! Im goign to Art center at night and let me tell you The highschool kids at "staruday High" are friggin scary with their skill.

Neko man it sounds like you want to get into Entertainment Design right? liek character creation and maybe levels and the design aspect? as opposed to the actual assembly of codemonkey programmer?

then you need to not pussyfoot around. otis is good and art center is better. go to where the best are and compete.

btu let me say this about japan. they have more creativity in their foreskin than all of us combined. they are damn talented. Jsut go to wonderfest and you will see what im talkign about.

[SpacePirateNeko]

dude speaking as someone who has dealt with ai and other psueado schools, you will get no where with these programs. anybody who went to ai or smc prove me wrong. in order to break into the field you need a badder then bad ass demo reel or be related to someone who is industry. post a pic and i will be happy to tell you what i mean. any reels of well known characters will and are tossed, it's all about style and what you can offer and  not sporting the atypical ai portfolio and give you nothing but debt. to hell with ai and smc if you are 26 and trying to break into the industry you really need something that will make people say "damn" anything else will just be a waste of time.

time factor: if you grad in 3-4 years you will be 29-30 trying toi compete with 19-20 yr olds who will eat you alive, that is a fact, software is a cruel mistress and going against kids raised on this stuff is a very bad idea. save your cash and develop your portfoilio on your own or hook up with people from otis or art center, what they are doing will shock and amaze you...makes ai look like pre-k.

333052[/snapback]

Wow thanks for the hopelessness i really need that.

Im not looking to "break into" the industry nor am i looking for hook-ups i mean if your seriously trying to tell me that knowing people in the industry helps ( as is common knowledge ; dont.....im looking for a school to help me develop my skills further

guess what im 26 now, i will develop my portfolio along the way as i develop my skills, i never said i draw other peoples characters either matter of fact im always trying to develop my own style, i hate copying

so yea im 26 and in 3-4 years ill be 30 but guess what thats what i am and thats what i have to go by so nothing else is going to change that if you know a way to turn back time please share

I would LOVE to go to OTIS its my godamn dream school, i was given a personal tour through the school, i get sent ( even today ) stuff from them everyday but unless you have 30k a year that i can have guess what ..im Never going to otis and yes before you ask i did the whole fafsa grant ordeal i got nothing from them.

solscud you hit it right on the head

[Stamen0083]

Wow thanks for the hopelessness  i really need that.

That wasn't hopelessness. You wanted honest advice and he gave it. Saves you the trouble of going that route and then finding that it's truly worthless for yourself after spending quite a bit of time and money. The truth is harsh, but that's life. In a field where who you know is so much more important than what you know, it's even worse.

[SpacePirateNeko]

Dude,

You asked for advice. You opened yourself up to hear things you might not like.

You can't ask for help, then get defensive when you hear things you don't want to hear. I can tell you right now thats definitely not how to get ahead in anything man.

Lots of dudes in here offered to talk to you in PM or Email or give you a bit of advice. Thats more than you'd get from cold calling or out on the streets. Out there its a pure dogfight to get your foot in the door, to get just a scrap of advice from someone who's bled in the trenches of what you want to get into.

Looks to me like people are trying to help, so take it all with a grain of salt and suck it up when you don't like what you hear.

No school teaches soft skills and social grace. And that stuff is just as important , sometimes more, than tech ability. If you think I'm busting your balls, then you are wrong, I'm saying ease it back some and put the advice given by everyone with some perspective.

Whatever you choose, good luck man

333188[/snapback]

Huh?

Wow definately wasnt being defensive i was just restating what i know and what im looking for so as to avoid confusion , i was trying to clear that its obvious to anyone its a filled that it helps to know someone but come on..thats every single job that isnt monkey work

just clearing up that right now getting a foot in the door isnt as important to me as is finding a place which others might feel is the best place to help advance skills and develop portfolios

no bother anyhow ive made my decision for now its going to be smc so i can get rid of the basic classes...i have some credits from el camino , 3.6-8 from hs and 4 in my Advanced Placement art class from way back when which will help cut a few classes i dont need.

After that i will try and transfer to what a feel is the best choice. Cal state long beach hasa great art department and a few on these forums have stated it was a great way to move ahead. Sure id love art center or otis but unless i get some mega super miraculous grant or become rich they are out of my reach ...for now.

Its clear and honest to myself that i know i will only most likely only achieve my goals if i diy my ideas. I know its not a popular or very easy way to do things these days but the other option is more luck then skill.

Im not interested in being rich im just interested in being happy.

Edited October 3, 2005 by SpacePirateNeko

[sabretooth]

Edited October 3, 2005 by sabretooth

[magicsp00n]

I didn't see any posts from anyone else currently working in the games industry, so I figure it's my duty to say a few words. I would have posted earlier, but from the title I thought this was another "which 1/48 should I buy?" thread, so I didn't read it until today.

I'm a programmer for EA. I can't speak from personal experience about the art side, but I know piles of artists in the studio, and the hiring experience is pretty similar between programmers and artists.

Let's dispel a few myths first:

1) The games industry is not as closed as one might think. It is not that case that a recruiter would sooner spit on you than look at your resume. Why? Simply, people get paid for referrals. Recruiters get paid for new hires. If I hand off a resume to one of our recuiters and the person gets hired, I get a bonus. With that in mind, I'll hook anybody up who's interested. Money for me.

2) You don't have to be young and cocky. Anybody who thinks this must have been reading those god-awful ads in the game magazines with taglines like "without people like me, you'd still be playing Pong." These make me want to vomit. This is a business. The most important thing is to be able to finish the product. It's very hard and it takes very long hours to put a game out. If you don't have consistency and dedication, you're going to have trouble. We hire a wide range of age groups, from fresh out of college, to people in their 30s and 40s. If you really want to make games for a living, age isn't particularly important. And nobody wants to work with a cocky jerk.

3) Specialized schools for game design are a waste of your time and money. I don't know specific details about the AI, but I know of many other schools, such as Full Sail, and they are not looked upon well. They charge far too much money, and don't produce students who are ready to work. A college education demonstrates more than simply having learned a trade. It shows that you have dedication and resourcefulness, that you can follow instructions and complete assignments that you don't necessarily like, and that you can see a long-term project (at least four years long) through to the end. People who go to specialized schools for game design are generally exhibiting the opposite of the above. They want to get done fast and somehow beat the system, which isn't necessarily a positive thng.

Now, with all that in mind, a more traditional university should be fine. Even a specialized art school is good. The Ringling School in Sarasota, FL is a big favorite of our recruiters. But a specialized game school is not a good idea. Get an education that will help you long-term. You probably won't want to make games all your life. Take a good variety of classes, build up a nice portfolio. If you need to work part-time to pay for school, then do it. Just be smart about your education.

And somebody send me a resume so I can get a referral bonus, dammit.