I hate new anime

[ComicKaze]

Just curious, based on date of release, how do most people define old and new anime?

Obviously anime from the 70s and 80s can be considered old, where as anime from the year 2000 to present could be called new.

But where does that leave the 90s?

Just where do you draw the line between calling an anime old or new?

For myself, I consider any anime from the last 10 years (1995 to 2005) new.

Graham

334094[/snapback]

For many people, the distinction from old and new comes around the 1995-2000 era when the cel process became predominantly digital.

[Nightbat]

For many people, the distinction from old and new comes around the 1995-2000 era when the cel process became predominantly digital.

338878[/snapback]

I guess you've missed the most important advancement: Internet

Coincidently it was 1995 when I got my first connection and I was probably

searching for Anime within a month

Was anime rare and obscure before this, it gave me acces to entire libraries

On another forum someone placed the AnimeNfo top 200 review/ratings list

I reorganized it by year:

2005

21 AIR TV (2005)

141 Tsubasa Chronicle (2005)

192 Ichigo 100% (2005)

2004

5 Elfen Lied (2004)

26 Monster (2004)

38 Samurai Champloo (2004)

40 BECK (2004)

42 Bleach (2004)

53 Mai HiME (2004)

62 Midori no Hibi (2004)

78 Paranoia Agent (2004)

87 School Rumble (2004)

98 Aishiteruze Baby (2004)

103 Maria-sama ga Miteru (2004)

108 Koi Kaze (2004)

109 Gankutsuoh (2004)

110 Genshiken (2004)

111 Gundam SEED Destiny (2004)

114 Kannazuki no Miko (2004)

116 Samurai 7 (2004)

124 MADLAX (2004)

137 Yakitate!! Japan (2004)

147 DearS (2004)

148 Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence (2004)

154 Kumo no Muko, Yakusoku no basho (2004)

163 Appleseed Movie (2004)

164 Kyo Kara Maoh (2004)

170 GANTZ (2004)

175 Sokyu No Fafner (2004)

184 Tenjou Tenge (2004)

190 Yumeria (2004)

2003

2 Kimi Ga Nozomu Eien (2003)

3 Fullmetal Alchemist (2003)

10 Full Metal Panic? Fumoffu! (2003)

14 GunGrave (2003)

15 Scrapped Princess (2003)

16 Last EXILE (2003)

23 Wolf's Rain (2003)

31 Shingetsutan Tsukihime (2003)

45 R.O.D -THE TV- (2003)

47 Chrno Crusade (2003)

52 Planet ES (2003)

55 Kino no tabi ~the Beautiful World~ (2003)

58 Gunslinger Girl (2003)

63 Uchuu no Stellvia (2003)

89 Maburaho (2003)

112 Gunparade March - Arata Naru Ko Gunka (2003)

117 Mahou Tsukai ni Taisetsu na Koto (2003)

121 TEXHNOLYZE (2003)

126 D.N Angel (2003)

129 D.C ~Da Capo~ (2003)

130 Onegai Twins (2003)

133 Peace Maker Kurogane (2003)

142 Ultra Maniac TV (2003)

149 Narue no Sekai (2003)

153 Matantei Loki - Ragnarok (2003) 

157 NARUTARU (2003)

159 .hack//Legend of Twilight Bracelet (2003)

166 Air Master (2003)

167 Ai Yori Aoshi ~Enishi~ (2003)

168 E's Otherwise (2003)

173 Yami to Boushi to Hon no Tabibito (2003)

180 Green Green TV (2003)

183 Popotan (2003)

185 Gilgamesh (2003)

194 Bottle Fairy (2003)

2002

4 Full Moon wo Sagashite (2002)

9 Rahxephon (2002)

13 Gundam SEED (2002)

18 12 Kokuki (2002)

20 Azumanga Daioh (2002)

22 Naruto (2002)

24 Onegai Teacher (2002)

39 Haibane Renmei (2002)

43 Full Metal Panic! (2002)

46 Witch Hunter Robin (2002)

50 GetBackers (2002)

51 Ghost in the Shell Stand Alone Complex 1st GIG (2002)

57 Chobits (2002)

61 Hoshi no Koe (2002)

64 Kanon (2002)

67 Saikano (2002)

79 Kiddy Grade (2002)

88 Macross Zero (2002)

96 .hack//SIGN (2002)

105 Ai Yori Aoshi (2002)

107 Princess Tutu (2002)

135 Mahoromatic TV 2 (2002)

140 Tenshi na Konamaiki (2002)

143 Gatekeepers 21 (2002)

144 Pita Ten (2002)

146 Abenobashi Mahou Shotengai (2002)

155 Piano (2002)

162 Tokyo Underground (2002)

169 Love Hina OVA (2002)

171 Spiral ~Bond of Inference~ (2002)

181 Happy Lesson TV (2002) 

199 Dragon Drive (2002)

2001

11 Hikaru no Go (2001)

12 Fruits Basket (2001)

32 Spirited Away (2001)

35 X TV (2001)

41 Cowboy Bebop - Knockin' on heaven's door (2001)

44 Rurouni Kenshin - Seisouhen (2001)

54 Vandread 2 (2001)

56 Read or Die (2001)

59 Noir (2001)

68 Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust (2001)

75 Scryed (2001)

82 Jungle wa itsumo Hare nochi Guu (2001)

84 Hellsing (2001)

93 Tennis no Ohjisama (2001)

94 Millennium Actress (2001)

95 Legend of Condor Hero (2001)

99 Kidou Tenshi Angelic Layer (2001)

102 Mahoromatic (2001)

125 Seikai no Senki 2 (2001)

131 Ai Mai Mi ! Strawberry Egg (2001)

145 Shaman King (2001)

150 Love Hina Christmas Special (2001)

161 Metropolis (2001)

178 Groove Adventure Rave (2001)

188 Love Hina Spring Special (2001)

189 Dual! Parallel Trouble Adventures TV (1999)

191 Puni Puni Poemi (2001)

197 Alien Nine (2001)

2000

8 Hajime no Ippo (2000)

27 Furi Kuri (2000)

28 Great Teacher Onizuka (2000)

33 Love Hina (2000)

49 Inuyasha (2000)

60 Gravitation TV (2000)

71 Vandread (2000)

76 Jin-Roh, The Wolf Brigade (2000)

85 Boogiepop Phantom (2000)

97 Seikai no Senki (2000)

115 AA! Megami Sama: The Movie (2000)

118 Yami no Matsuei (2000)

122 Ayashi no Ceres (2000)

156 Boys Be (2000)

177 Blood: The Last Vampire (2000)

182 Escaflowne - The Movie (2000)

193 Angel Sanctuary (2000)

1999

1 Rurouni Kenshin - Reminiscence (1999)

19 One Piece (1999)

36 Hunter X Hunter (1999)

37 Ima, Sokoni Iru Boku (1999)

70 Seikai no Monshou (1999)

74 Infinite Ryvius (1999)

83 Excel Saga (1999)

160 Jubei-chan the Ninja Girl (1999)

179 To Heart (1999)

189 Dual! Parallel Trouble Adventures TV (1999)

200 Battle Angel (1993)1 Rurouni Kenshin - Reminiscence (1999)

1998

7 Cowboy Bebop (1998)

48 Kareshi Kanojo no Jijou (1998)

69 Serial Experiments Lain (1998)

81 Card Captor Sakura (1998)

86 Initial D - First Stage (1998)

100 Outlaw Star (1998)

174 Bubblegum Crisis: Tokyo 2040 (1998)

186 Gasaraki (1998)

198 Prince of Darkness (1998)

1997

6 Berserk (1997)

77 Princess Mononoke (1997)

127 Revolutionary Girl Utena (1997)

139 Evangelion: End of Evangelion (1997)

172 Perfect Blue (1997)

196 Rurouni Kenshin - Requiem for the Restoration Royalists (1997)

1996

25 Rurouni Kenshin (1996)

34 Vision of Escaflowne (1996)

65 Martian Successor Nadesico (1996)

106 Kodomo no Omocha (1996)

123 Hana Yori Dango (1996)

158 Saber Marionette J (1996)

1995

17 Neon Genesis Evangelion (1995)

72 Ghost in the Shell (1995)

104 Slayers, The (1995)

113 Golden Boy (1995)

119 Fushigi Yuugi (1995)

120 Whisper of the heart (1995)

187 Gundam Wing (1995)

1994

152 Macross Plus (1994)

1993

66 AA! Megami Sama (1993)

136 Slam Dunk (1993)

138 Ninja Scroll (1993)

200 Battle Angel (1993)

1992

92 Tenchi Muyo! OVA (1992)

1991

176 Video Girl Ai (1991)

1990

165 Record of Lodoss War OVA (1990)

1989

73 Ranma 1/2 (1989)

132 Kiki's Delivery Service (1989)

1988

29 Grave of the Fireflies (1988)

80 My Neighbor Totoro (1988)

90 Akira (1988)

1987

134 Kimagure Orange Road TV (1987)

1986

101 Maison Ikkoku (1986)

128 Laputa: Castle in the Sky (1986)

195 Dragon Ball (1986)

1984

91 Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind (1984)

1982

151 Super Dimensional Fortress Macross (1982)

Not really accurate to say but: pre-1995 only the "classics" enter the top 200

the titles we all know

Since GitS and NGE, Anime soared in popularity, adding the internet age and instead

of the few 'classic' series brought over, the floodgates opened

[Radd]

Yeah, I'd agree with Nightbat in that the internet is the predominant divider between the old and the new. If you ever hop on any digital fansub forums, or distribution sites like Animesuki, you'll notice most of the kids there are only familier with anime from the past few years, going back only to around the release of Evangelion, wich they consider to be 'old'.

Plus, the further back you go the more likely you're only going to remember the really good titles, and a few exceptionally bad titles, and out of the titles you remember favourably, chances are you remember them being better than they actually were.

[ComicKaze]

For many people, the distinction from old and new comes around the 1995-2000 era when the cel process became predominantly digital.

338878[/snapback]

I guess you've missed the most important advancement: Internet

Since GitS and NGE, Anime soared in popularity, adding the internet age and instead

of the few 'classic' series brought over, the floodgates opened

338926[/snapback]

I guess you've missed the point of my post. It has nothing to do with the internet, content delivery, or popularization of anime. It has to do with the actual animation of said anime.

I am not a fan of the remakes of "classic" series such as Gits and Bubblegum Crisis 2040. I can't stand the overt usage of CG.

BUT it can be said that the trend of the widespread dissemination and popularization of anime via the internet, that it also coincides with the trend of the digitization of the animation process because computer technology develops hand in hand.

Think about it, there are very few animes from the so-called internet era that are actually have hand-painted cels.

But when I first got into getting anime online, it was all 15-20MB epsiode rm or asf rips from the old VHS tapes which mostly contained older animes - even from the days when fansubbing was done VIA mailing tapes back and forth. These days, people have little knowledge of these animes or that era.

[eugimon]

meh. traditional hand painted cartoons are great and all.. and so were those old movies without sand.. ah.. those were the days... when you had a guy witha piano playing along. I mean, nowadays you hardly ever see an upright piano played at a movie theater. Just today I was watching Domino and thought to myself, hmmm, a good pianist could really make this movie come alive instead of this newfangled pre-recorded dolby digital nonesense!

Seriously though... digitally painted anime allows for greater continuity, cleaner images and a product that is faster to produce, easier to record to distribution media... further, you can't just point out poorly integrated CG into animation and say that this is why CG/handdrawn hybridization is bad. I'm sure when the first color movies came out, the same lot of you would have sat around and bitched about how the colors don't look right.. look at that red, that's not what red looks like. blah blah blah.

sounds like just a bunch of old whiners complaining about how the new fangled world passed them by.. back in my day, I had to walk uphill to get to school... both ways! and at night, mommy would beat us to death thirty minutes before we had to get up!

[Radd]

I am not a fan of the remakes of "classic" series such as Gits and Bubblegum Crisis 2040. I can't stand the overt usage of CG.

GitS:SAC isn't really a remake, it's its own thing. It's based on the characters and world set forth in the original Shirow manga, but that's about it. It's not even a direct retelling of the manga. Or were you talking about the movie, wich was a retelling of the manga? Of course, that movie came out not all that long after the manga so that hardly counts, doesn't it?

I took one look at BGC2040 and knew it wasn't for me. Bright and poppy, complete opposite to the dark and gritty world set forth in the cyberpunk classic. However, what do you say to Bubblegum Crash? A sequel to the original BGC made not too long after, and it stunk. If they made a new BGC that was good. I'd certainly take it over that piece of crap.

Take a look at the new Tetsujin 28 tv series. It's a remake of a classic, but on the other hand, the original tv series and the 80's Tetsujin were hardly true to the original manga. Yet this new series is said to be very true to the original story. Plus the project is being headed by a guy who's in the past, with one of the classics of anime no less, proven he has the utmost respect for the material. The first episode is also absolutely gorgeous. I'll take this over the "classic" Tetsujin shows any day of the week.

Remakes also aren't a new thing, and the aforementioned GitS movie isn't the only example of an "old anime" adaptation or remake. 'Do You Remember Love?' is a remake of the original SDF Macross. We've also certainly seen our share of Macross continuations. Did they stop being good once they became "new anime"? I'll take Plus and Zero over Macross II, thank you very much.

On the other hand, I somewhat agree with your statement on overused CG. However, for not entirely the same reasons. Digitally coloured cels are fine with me, I think they can often be better than hand painted cels. The problem comes in when the people behind the tech misuse it. With the advent of digital colouring we've seen plenty of overly bright, and painfully oversaturated art and animation. Also, digital work always comes off as somewhat sterile looking because of an unnatural lack of any flaws whatsoever. People work on the basis that because those overly bright and saturated colours are there, they should use them. Also, they feel that since they can make art and animation with few flaws, they should, despite the fact that especially in art more than anything else, the flaws tend to lend character to the work. Personally, when I work digitally, I like to add in flaws to break up the unnaturally flat colours and all-too-perfect gradients. There are simple, cheap, and effective ways to do this, not the least of wich is simply having a good knowledge of colour theory and an eye for natural looking colours, so again I blame the people not the tech.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Gits: SAC imo is an example of good use of cg. ie the vehicles, mecha, look and move realistically and the camera is allowed to see stuff from many angles as if the object were right there in front of you. (and they do not stick out like a sore thumb)

Compare that with a jerky hand drawn version and you can see which is superior. The cg doesn't undergo some kind of deformation like what happened with the different shaped VF1 in SDF: macross.

The same sort of complaints with cg I am hearing here with anime, I have heard with live action movies. People complain that ever since matrix there is overuse and overreliance on it. True but it has its place for certain genres. (take a fantasy setting like lotr or jurassic park for example) There are good examples and bad ones.

Also I did not in the least bit mind the CG dogfighting in macross zero. It's comforting to know these things are 3d objects with proper accurate dimensions to them. (which don;t suddenly grow or shrink according to the mood of the artist )

Appleseed CG is another good example. Nice dramatic pans and camera rotation in a city setting really adds to the atmosphere of the world. I want to see in, above, below, and around my environments sometimes with a realistic and convincing sense of depth. In macross plus when they show the cg city (ep4 of the ova) it allows the viewer to dip and bounce, spin and slide in and around the buildings and get a feel for the sense of speed involved and amount of real space the objects are in.

CG is just a tool. It can be misused and abused or utilised with proper restraint. But the good examples of its use are what we should be thankful for. I'm a fan of both old and new. Just that I think it takes time for some to learn mistakes before they improve.

Edited October 23, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[danth]

I'm glad someone resurrected my thread, because new anime really does suck. I just watched the old Bunny Girl short linked to in this thread. Holy god. That animation blows away anything I've seen made in the last ten years.

CG means, 99% of the time, cheaper, more lifeless mecha. Computer colored drawings mean, 99% of the time, cheaper, uglier coloring. Computers are used to reduce cost -- that's the whole point of the technique. It's not to make better animation. If you think it's better, it's because they told you that and you believed them.

[danth]

Hey, I just realized something: old anime was typically about action: people running, fighting, jumping, whatever. New anime is about people standing around talking. I think that's why I hate melodramatic anime -- I subconciously detect that the drama is really just a ploy to excuse cheap animation. With a dramatic close-up you can zoom in on a still image of a person and just animate the mouth moving.

Ha, here's my term for that poo -Inanime.

[Sumdumgai]

Melodrama is fine. They could achieve a lot in Patlabor I and II, with great animation and great action sequences.

A number of the old action anime had dialogue while people stand still between the fights.

I am loathe to use this example (because it's a crap anime), but Dragon Ball Z is 50% people bulging, twitching and spazzing out while standing still talking about how their power-penis is bigger than the other person's power-penis, and that their ejaculation-level is rising.

Saint Seiya, a classic that's famous the world-over, except the US (because the US didn't jump on it while it was hot), there's a lot of action. But, they stop and talk.

Newer is Rurouni Kenshin. Main story arcs, there's action, but they always stand still for a bit to talk. Don't get me started on adaptations of manga to anime. I hate filler stories, because 99% of the time they're crap.

Since anime is more mainstream now, there's a lot more awareness of other titles now.

Good god, there's an anime about MAKING BREAD!!!! I'm thankful that everything that is released in Japan isn't dumped into the west.

If you want crap cg mecha, I nominate Gankutsuo. I love this anime adaptation of The Count of Monté Christo, but the wannabe Escaflowne-ish mecha done in horrible cg just ruined some scenes in it. The anime has a unique animation style, I didn't like it at first, but it was a refreshign departure from the norm.

[Radd]

I'm glad someone resurrected my thread, because new anime really does suck. I just watched the old Bunny Girl short linked to in this thread. Holy god. That animation blows away anything I've seen made in the last ten years.

That's a 5 minute short, that is well known to be a labour of love on the part of its creators, made for a fan convention. It's good. I've had it on my computer for years, and I love to watch it every so often.

Nearly half of that 5 minute animation is still frames and a panning over the outline of a vegetable shaped spaceship. Additionally, a good half a minute to a minute of this animation is reused footage from the Daicon 3 opening. That leaves us about about a minute and a half of truly excellent animation mixed with about half a minute of minimalistic animation towards the end. All of this is wrapped up with an uplifting song and some very nice editing.

Now normally, I wouldn't be so critical of this animation. It's trully excellent work and I love it a lot, but you insist on comparing it to 10 years of animation. So we've got here about a minute and a half of truly remarkable animation, on the other hand there's the second Ghost in the Shell movie. Sure, very heavy on the CG, all digitally coloured. Still, I bet you can find more than a minute and a half of hand drawn animation that rivals or exceeds that found in the Daicon 4 opening. That's using a movie that I felt the best feature about it was that it didn't suck as much as the original GitS movie. Dredging through Wasted XIII, Macross Zero, the recent Captain Herlock series directed by Rin Taro, and any Miyazake movie made in the last 10 years, I'm certain you'll find plenty of 2D animation that is equal to the Daicon 4 video, and you'll find it in greater quantity.

CG means, 99% of the time, cheaper, more lifeless mecha. Computer colored drawings mean, 99% of the time, cheaper, uglier coloring. Computers are used to reduce cost -- that's the whole point of the technique. It's not to make better animation. If you think it's better, it's because they told you that and you believed them.

339057[/snapback]

I agree 100%. However, 99% of the time, hand drawn mecha are poorly drawn, horribly animated. 99% of the time, hand painted cells mean inconsistant colours, miscoloured cells, missing colours, and overall cheap looking.

Need I sit you down to watch some AnimeFriend episodes of SDF Macross? How about the original Gundam series? The 80's Tetsujin 28 maybe?

The thing with CG is, it is easier and cheaper to produce something that looks better than 2D on a limited time and budget. However, it is more difficult and more time consuming to produce something that looks exceptional, than it would take with 2D methods.

On digital colouring I have to disagree with you even more, though. In the hands of people that know what they're doing, digital colouring can look better, and more consistant, easier and cheaper than hand painted cells. The problem is that when people with questionable colour theory skills are given an unlimited pallette of colours. They make their linework really dark, they make their colours really bright, and they do nothing to break up large expanses of flat colour, or unnaturally smooth gradfents. That's where the problems comes in.

Finally, as has been pointed out, if you think all old anime was filled with tons of excellent motion, it's obvious you've never studied animation. Anime has always made use of limited animation techniques, such as still frames where nothing but facial features move, or maybe some limited arm movement. A big part of the reason so much western animation was done in Japan was because of how cheap it was, a big part of why it was so cheap (other than that they pay their grunt animators starvation wages) is that they cut so many corners. The philosophy over there has almost always been, very pretty imagery done with limited animation. This opposed to the western philosphy of making the artwork simpler, but giving it more motion.

[ComicKaze]

I'm glad someone resurrected my thread, because new anime really does suck. I just watched the old Bunny Girl short linked to in this thread. Holy god. That animation blows away anything I've seen made in the last ten years.

That's a 5 minute short, that is well known to be a labour of love on the part of its creators, made for a fan convention. It's good. I've had it on my computer for years, and I love to watch it every so often.

Nearly half of that 5 minute animation is still frames and a panning over the outline of a vegetable shaped spaceship. Additionally, a good half a minute to a minute of this animation is reused footage from the Daicon 3 opening. That leaves us about about a minute and a half of truly excellent animation mixed with about half a minute of minimalistic animation towards the end. All of this is wrapped up with an uplifting song and some very nice editing.

Now normally, I wouldn't be so critical of this animation. It's trully excellent work and I love it a lot, but you insist on comparing it to 10 years of animation. So we've got here about a minute and a half of truly remarkable animation, on the other hand there's the second Ghost in the Shell movie. Sure, very heavy on the CG, all digitally coloured. Still, I bet you can find more than a minute and a half of hand drawn animation that rivals or exceeds that found in the Daicon 4 opening. That's using a movie that I felt the best feature about it was that it didn't suck as much as the original GitS movie. Dredging through Wasted XIII, Macross Zero, the recent Captain Herlock series directed by Rin Taro, and any Miyazake movie made in the last 10 years, I'm certain you'll find plenty of 2D animation that is equal to the Daicon 4 video, and you'll find it in greater quantity.

CG means, 99% of the time, cheaper, more lifeless mecha. Computer colored drawings mean, 99% of the time, cheaper, uglier coloring. Computers are used to reduce cost -- that's the whole point of the technique. It's not to make better animation. If you think it's better, it's because they told you that and you believed them.

339057[/snapback]

I agree 100%. However, 99% of the time, hand drawn mecha are poorly drawn, horribly animated. 99% of the time, hand painted cells mean inconsistant colours, miscoloured cells, missing colours, and overall cheap looking.

Need I sit you down to watch some AnimeFriend episodes of SDF Macross? How about the original Gundam series? The 80's Tetsujin 28 maybe?

The thing with CG is, it is easier and cheaper to produce something that looks better than 2D on a limited time and budget. However, it is more difficult and more time consuming to produce something that looks exceptional, than it would take with 2D methods.

On digital colouring I have to disagree with you even more, though. In the hands of people that know what they're doing, digital colouring can look better, and more consistant, easier and cheaper than hand painted cells. The problem is that when people with questionable colour theory skills are given an unlimited pallette of colours. They make their linework really dark, they make their colours really bright, and they do nothing to break up large expanses of flat colour, or unnaturally smooth gradfents. That's where the problems comes in.

Finally, as has been pointed out, if you think all old anime was filled with tons of excellent motion, it's obvious you've never studied animation. Anime has always made use of limited animation techniques, such as still frames where nothing but facial features move, or maybe some limited arm movement. A big part of the reason so much western animation was done in Japan was because of how cheap it was, a big part of why it was so cheap (other than that they pay their grunt animators starvation wages) is that they cut so many corners. The philosophy over there has almost always been, very pretty imagery done with limited animation. This opposed to the western philosphy of making the artwork simpler, but giving it more motion.

339071[/snapback]

Yes, but your examples are all pretty much the late 70s/80s low budget series. You have to admit that the quality improved considerably up through the 90s. And I don't really care, I just love hand-drawn anime, even if it looks cheap. It screams character to me while CG seems flat and lifeless.

I'm entirely superficial in that I'll not be able to enjoy an anime much if the animation style is too modern. To me, the net effect of using computers has caused the more lower budget shows - no matter the quality of the storyline) to look EVEN cheaper because it allows them to take even more shortcuts and the artists can be even more lazy - plus now most of the CG colorization is farmed out to Korea and China these days.

AND I LOVE UNNATURALLY SMOOTH GRADIENTS. Most anime isn't striving to be realistic. What I loved about 80s animation was the bands of color, the super sharp contrast, the super-saturation of colors, the brightnes, the energy, the feeling. Even down to the gritty pencil and pen outlines where you can see a grain against the characters or grit in the cell against the hand-painted or watercolor background. That was just beautiful art. Now with CG, the background and foreground all melt into each other and I just can't stand it. I don't like my anime like this at all.

And I don't know what your definition of quality is but I can't rate Macross Zero or GiTs anywhere NEAR the level of animation done by the oldskool core of Gainax for Daicon IV. There's personality and character in their art. GiTz and Macross Zero are overly polished to remove any sense of the artists so that the whole thing just blends together and it seems like a boring CG puddle to me.

Edited October 24, 2005 by ComicKaze

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

You forgot the IMO

I liked the cg in gits. It gave the vehicles a sense of realism and that they were futuristic and actually there. We could see all around them, and in the case of macross zero, they moved and reacted smoothly. There was a sense of great distance from off the ground when you look at the background sceneary, like you are high up in the air.

Not all things have to be gritty and dirty. One of the things I liked about shirow's appleseed manga in the 80s was how much friggin detail he puts into the drawings. That must be a labor of love. But to expect that kind of detail and good animation is being unfair. If some of the world was done in cg I can live with it.

I'm mainly a fan of cg based on the genre, (for example if there is not much mecha in it, no point using 3d cg models) and based on the things it is used for. eg, a machine is a static object that should NOT deform and bend like it was made out of cardboard. It is much more convincing to me when it is "cold", hard" and "lifeless" like what things really are in the real world.

Compare the beauty of macross DYRL hand drawn animation to the beauty of macross zero dogfights. One allows the machines to move like the robots were alive. (this is cool I like this too, that is what gets me into anime because you can do stuff that are not possible in real life - the reason movies like the matrix are popular) The other makes the dogfighting, and shinyness of the machines seem like these are real and do not break any laws of nature. (ie no fat chunky munky style proportions in one scene when a machine is in one mode, and then skinny and sleek fighter proportion in another scene when it is in another mode)

I can see the good points of both sides of the argument. But if something that should be "lifeless and solid and shiny" in the creator's vision actually looks shiny and solid and lifeless, then I am not going to complain. Because that is how I would envision a modern machine with smooth clean lines to look like. Not dirty and uneven and unrealistically weightless.

People and characters are different. This is where I think hand drawn is better because it allows them to have character. But most of the time, the lifelessness is a result of the cost saving that is done in pretty much all anime. (don't blame the age of cg) Why bother wasting money on a scene with talking and mostly spoken body movement, when you can concentrate on the money shots like the action scenes and busy parts? (reminds me of an episode of the simpsons where bart watches a preview to a movie and they cut to all the exciting action scenes, and Homer expresses interest in wanting to see the movie because it looks so exciting and packed with action, and Bart tells him: "What's the point you've already seen all the best parts!" )

Somebody mentioned that in GitS the people felt lifeless. Well that is actually fitting since they are adult cyborgs with relaxed attitude working for a covert ops group, not 5 year old kids who move about actively. And they speak wirelessly. Think back to the dull boring character that Harrison Ford plays in blade runner. That is how I imagine these people to be like in a world where humans are dehumanised by the technology as it slowly beomes part of them. I think people are just falling for the trap of comparing only the best they can think up from the past with the average of today. So the crap stuff to them sticks out more because it is fresh in thier memory.

As I mention certain genres benefit more from cg than others. Although it is true that it wil be used to save costs, think to movies like jurrassic park that look bloody convincing with cg. Both in phyics and how the dino's walk and run, as well as skin and look vs a traditional puppet. Think about the money saved when animating herds of these beasts as opposed to the money wasted on real life objects whose detail you may never ever get to see because the shot is so far away and the viewer won't notice any difference. Same with LOTR when you have all those orcs attacking the humans, the ones from far away and in the opening scenes in FOTR are not going to be seen in great detail, yet they move realistically and are convincingly done using cg. Not fake at all - there are no bright colours on the models, things actually looked weathered and dirty. In fact the actors were more wooden than the animated puppets in some cases.

The same sort of logic and reason to use CG applies to anime imo. Sci-fi and fantasy with machines may benefit with the tools use, but there will always be bad uses for it because it is "trendy" or people are lazy. But this doesn't change that over time, its use will eventually mature and techiques get refined over time as people learn from the mistakes of the past. It is just a tool that can either be abused or used effectively and convincingly. And it has had less time - unlike 2d animation which is tried and tested and used for decades - for people to give it a chance, so naturally the response wil be that todays anime sucks because of its existence, as opposed to just blaming its poor unskilled use of it.

Edited October 24, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Pat Payne]

And I don't know what your definition of quality is but I can't rate Macross Zero or GiTs anywhere NEAR the level of animation done by the oldskool core of Gainax for Daicon IV. There's personality and character in their art. GiTz and Macross Zero are overly polished to remove any sense of the artists so that the whole thing just blends together and it seems like a boring CG puddle to me.

339145[/snapback]

I second that. Too much of today's anime seems to have no soul. The old ink-and-paint cel animation seemed to be more alive, that there was a heart and vitality missing in much of today's stuff. Some shows, like Last Exile, still have that spark, but they're few and far between.

[ComicKaze]

Okay, I'm tired of explaining my opinion on why old and new anime are different to most people (especially new anime fans)...so I made up this image. Now the original is a Gundam ZZ shot from a cel from the opening sequence (I believe), but I've spent some time maniping the image so it more resembles current day animation styles.

Remember, this is only a general comparison from my artistic point of view of how the 80s image were to look if somebody animated it today. I realize that ZZ's animation was usually attocious due to very low TV budget, but even then, the higher quality frames (not the inbetween frames) still had some of these attributes, especially the metallic reflections that I love so much. I'm not saying that either is superior, but I prefer the older style. It's just what anime means to me.

Do you guys agree with this?

You could say that the new Gundam Zeta movie would be a better comparison - but only if you used the high quality frames from Zeta because they are mostly integrating modern animation with general TV budget clips from the original.

Compare the beauty of macross DYRL hand drawn animation to the beauty of macross zero dogfights. One allows the machines to move like the robots were alive. (this is cool I like this too, that is what gets me into anime because you can do stuff that are not possible in real life - the reason movies like the matrix are popular) The other makes the dogfighting, and shinyness of the machines seem like these are real and do not break any laws of nature. (ie no fat chunky munky style proportions in one scene when a machine is in one mode, and then skinny and sleek fighter proportion in another scene when it is in another mode)

I can see the good points of both sides of the argument. But if something that should be "lifeless and solid and shiny" in the creator's vision actually looks shiny and solid and lifeless, then I am not going to complain. Because that is how I would envision a modern machine with smooth clean lines to look like. Not dirty and uneven and unrealistically weightless.

It's possible to achieve the same quality of mechanical motion and reflection in the old style of animation, although you rarely see it because it is very expensive to do. The coloring method is mainly what I'm arguing, and not the realism of the actual physics of what's being animated. There's certainly more stylistic interpretations of anime, where they apply the usual anime exaggeration to the anthropomorphosizing of robots - classic example, VF-2SS in the title sequence of Macross II striking it's pose. But I still prefer that, to seeing actual CG models with computer generated cell-shading applied to textures.

I'd love a best of both worlds approach. Where CG would be used for blank wireframe models, but the actual animation is hand-drawn and colored with some allowance for artistic exaggeration or stylism here and there-> but that will never happen.

Edited October 24, 2005 by ComicKaze

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Well the feeling I get with cg is that same feeling I got with final fantasy 7 game. When the games lost thier nice hand-drawn look of the old days and the beautiful color tone, and went all pre-rendered and lifeless, I felt the soul was lost.

I'm not disagreeing with the idea that the 80s was the golden age, (I'm a fan of 80s anime) and that hand drawn has more "life", "style", and should be preffered, but just that I can see where CG STILL has it place. It just so happen that bad example give it a bad name. (due to trends)

Its like the difference between comparing "Toy Story-like" CG (very bright and happy and purposely plastic-y, reflective, and shiny-looking which suits kids) to "Gollum like" cg in movies. (which is "look at me, I am a realistic looking creature for a fantasy world with none of the wooden acting you expect from CG")

Gollum was carefully thought out and I forgot that it was a cg puppet as I watched the movie. The facial expression was done so that at times you feel like it is a real person with emotion and not cold and emotionless. Animation had realism look and in movement without sacrificing life in thier behaviour and mood. In toy story the characters move unrealistically and cartoon-like (which people like!) but their external appearance is such that you could say in the early days of CG animation, that "this is typical CG, I don't ever want to see this kind of thing for a serious movie. The age of cg can only bring fake models." and missing the point that at times when cg is used for certain genres like fantasy, it is often more "realistic" or "convincing" than if you had tried to make a live solid puppet. (a real object or model. ie OT star wars realistic models vs new fake looking cg star wars for example)

So it's like there is this prejudice towards CG in general based on what htey remember from the bad, you know what I mean? As time goes on, there is the chance the look will become seamless and instead of the fake cg sticking out like a sore thumb in the early days (due to poor choices, laziness, crap technology, or lack of skill) the actual hand drawn stuff will be the thing that sticks out like a sore thumb this time. Either one is bad (when there is an imbalance) but you can't just blame the tool for its poor use was all I wanted to say.

Edited October 24, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[ComicKaze]

Gollum was carefully thought out and I forgot that it was a cg puppet as I watched the movie. The facial expression was done so that at times you feel like it is a real person with emotion and not cold and emotionless. Animation had realism look and in movement without sacrificing life in thier behaviour and mood. In toy story the characters move unrealistically and cartoon-like (which people like!) but their external appearance is such that you could say in the early days of CG animation, that "this is typical CG, I don't ever want to see this kind of thing for a serious movie. The age of cg can only bring fake models." and missing the point that at times when cg is used for certain genres like fantasy, it is often more "realistic" or "convincing" than if you had tried to make a live solid puppet.

So it's like there is this prejudice towards CG in general, you know what I mean? As time goes there is the chance the look wil be come seamless and instead of the fake cg sticking out like a sore thumb in the early days (due to poor choices, laziness or lack of skill) the actual hand drawn stuff will be the thing that sticks out like a sore thumb. Either one is bad but you can't just blame the tool for poor use was all I wanted to say.

339174[/snapback]

These days, CG still sticks out like a sore thumb to me. When I saw Gollum, he just stuck out (I don't like CG in movies either - all hail Batman Begins which used as little CG as possible - Batman hanging off the monorail was a real stuntman on a cable on a long track - and Nolan even went as far as to locate an old photographic developer to develop the film process he used - vs. Mr. Lucas who shoots everything digital). I didn't like LoTR at all. I kept imaging how the scene looked with the actors walking around sets pretending Gollum was there.

I prefer Christopher Nolan's take on man. CG expressly used only if it fits the film and used with extremely subtley and prudence.

But anyway, I do like some modern animes like Yukikaze, FMP, etc. I just really yearn to see some coloring and details like in older animes and especially high-budget anime movies of the 80s and 90s. But that era has passed, nothing that belongs to it exists anymore. I also miss the lighting effects, where they actually cut a shape matching the light in the cel and light would shine through a filter through the plate while photographed.

Edited October 24, 2005 by ComicKaze

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I'd would have to agree with those points. I hate it when things look too flat. This is why I did not like the gundam seed ships because they seemed out of place.

Maybe it is just "early days" and things might get better.

As for gollum, I can't imagine not using cg for him. Like with Yoda in the star wars movies I don't think a puppet or costume would suffice especially when you see yoda having to fight and needing to move with inhuman speed like he can take anyone on. LOTR is still a good example of using old tehniques with new ones though. (they even restrained from giving saruman typical DnD/hollywood-style magic effects) Its a good example of balance.

Whether we like the cg or not wasn't what I was arguing though. But that: as a tool it can only help and only adds to the choices of what you can do. In fantasy, there are going to be things like thousands of things moving around all at once and computers help with this kind of thing. I loved the soldiers at the begining of FOTR when they are massing to fight. To me I didn't care if they were ALL real people, because from where I am sitting it was convincing enough. Contrast that with star wars prequel cities, they were artificial enough that it looked videogameish. (but maybe as time goes on, the tech gets better, the artists skills get more refined, we will look back at it and laugh at it?)

In movies like Jurrassic park, where these huge animals have to blend with the background and move and interact with objects near them, CG is put to good use. They don't look fake in the "robotic, wooden, inorganic" sense of fake to me and they fit right in with thier environment. (which is nonfantasy and needs dark lighting and real tones, unlike the cartoon world like toystory.) I just think that blaming the fall of animation quality on the misuse of the tool itself (like in instances where it is not needed) is a little unfair. One of my favourite parts in macross plus is when they did choose to use cg.

Edited October 24, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Radd]

Yes, but your examples are all pretty much the late 70s/80s low budget series.

If you're going to compare head to head, you have to do so right down the line. Comparing only the best of yesteryear to what is typically standard animation today just isn't fair. It seems to me that is exactly what a lot of people are doing. They are taking their golden memories, only the very best of what the 80's had to offer, and comparing it to today's typical tv show fodder.

GitS:SAC may be high budget for a tv series, but it's still no movie or OVA. You don't compare it to A-Ko, the Daicon 4 opening, DYRL, or things like that. You compare it to the tv shows of the time.

You most certainly don't compare those high budget productions to something like Aquarion or Naruto. You compare those to SDF and DBZ.

Plus people continue to ignore the fact that not all modern anime uses CG rather than hand drawn mecha. Personally, I do agree that too often using CG in replace of hand drawn mecha is a bad trend, but to say there's no good anime these days, and this trend is a major factor in that, is turning a blind eye to some excellent anime. I keep holding up the new Tetsujin series as an example of great modern anime. The robots there most certainly aren't CG. Also, while digitally coloured, it's an example of the colourists not going overboard with the bright and overly saturated colours that most CG colour jobs seem to be guilty of.

The new Herlock is another good example (though I noticed brighter colours in the DVD compared to the fansub, of course DVD distributers are often guilting of upping colour brightness and saturation when prepping the show for release). Plus unlike the bad trend of using CG ships in Matsumoto series, this show kept the ships all hand drawn.

AND I LOVE UNNATURALLY SMOOTH GRADIENTS.

With this paragraph, your complaints begin to contradict with the reality of the situation. More often than not, it's the digitally coloured works that feature the unnaturally smooth gradients and overly bright colours. Hand painted animation has to deal with the limits of the media in this regard.

And I don't know what your definition of quality is but I can't rate Macross Zero or GiTs anywhere NEAR the level of animation done by the oldskool core of Gainax for Daicon IV.

Quite simple, you're again comparing short bursts of excellent animation, crammed amidst still frames and reused animation, to a full blown tv show wich has much longer bursts of hand drawn animation crammed amidst CG ,and an OVA with some truly excellent hand drawn animation in short bursts, crammed amdist some decent hand drawn animation, and some well above average CG.

http://img473.imageshack.us/img473/4998/oldvsnewanime6kg.jpg

Do I agree with this? For your image example you have a still that in itself is above average for typical 80's anime, and next to it a Photoshopped version of that, wich can only be described as a caricature of modern style that isn't true at all.

[SpacePirateNeko]

God i couldnt agree with this thread more....teh worst part is i get so much flack for this... even from this message board when i posted a simialar thread two years ago.

To me ...old anime was just ...more passionate ..more romantic , more adventurous, and more story driven, it had its flash and its unique style that made it anime but the characters were more realistic even when they were totally unrealistic, you cared about them or hated them , they werent drawn like triangles..current anime titles seem so angular and jarring where the older stuff was much more individualistic and softer in general.

I honestly cant tell one artists work from teh other in current titles

Its funny but if you grew up trying to track down anime in teh 80s you can remember EXACTLY what set it apart

Theres so much more i can say but i think ill hold off a bit

[ComicKaze]

-double post sorry

Edited October 24, 2005 by ComicKaze

[ComicKaze]

Plus people continue to ignore the fact that not all modern anime uses CG rather than hand drawn mecha. Personally, I do agree that too often using CG in replace of hand drawn mecha is a bad trend, but to say there's no good anime these days, and this trend is a major factor in that, is turning a blind eye to some excellent anime. I keep holding up the new Tetsujin series as an example of great modern anime. The robots there most certainly aren't CG. Also, while digitally coloured, it's an example of the colourists not going overboard with the bright and overly saturated colours that most CG colour jobs seem to be guilty of.

I'm mostly complaining about CG as in the process of coloring anime these days. And I enjoy many modern animes like Yukikaze and FMP.

With this paragraph, your complaints begin to contradict with the reality of the situation. More often than not, it's the digitally coloured works that feature the unnaturally smooth gradients and overly bright colours. Hand painted animation has to deal with the limits of the media in this regard.

Unnaturally smooth gradients in the digital sense result from technology not being able to properly reproduce a proper color depth for the gradient. This is a completely different thing. If you switch your desktop from 32-bit color to 16 color with a gradient background, you'll see the same banding. Nonetheless, this is still unifrom coloring. I'm talking about when older animation styles tending to have very differnt colors run right up against each other instead of having a smooth transition in the shading.

Quite simple, you're again comparing short bursts of excellent animation, crammed amidst still frames and reused animation, to a full blown tv show wich has much longer bursts of  hand drawn animation crammed amidst CG ,and an OVA with some truly excellent hand drawn animation in short bursts, crammed amdist some decent hand drawn animation, and some well above average CG.

No, I do not expect perfect animation. Many of my favorites are old shows with very bad animation. I guage things based on the overall artistic aesthetic and I simply do not like the art styles of either GiTs or Macross Zero though their stories have quite a bit of merit. It's quite silly to actually say that the animation is of a higher quality in Daicon IV as it's obviously not. It's mostly still frames of badly drawn sci-fi imagery from the early 80s imposed on each other in an old dissolve effect. Daicon IV actually has a lot of inbetween frames that aren't very well drawn but the action is so frenetic you never see them. I meant quality in the sense of artistic quality (which we all know is a matter strictly of opinion), not technical quality.

Do I agree with this? For your image example you have a still that in itself is above average for typical 80's anime, and next to it a Photoshopped version of that, wich can only be described as a caricature of modern style that isn't true at all.

I'm talking about artistic style and that's simply a frame that shows off the kind of coloring and shading that I prefer. Notice how I'm talking about how much ZZ's animation is attrocious in the actual post? I love super-saturated colors. I love stylistic reflections off metal. That's all I'm saying. As for my version of a modern ZZ, I spent a lot of time on it and I didn't do anything in my mind that was negative or overtly biased. I tried my best to make it look good and a reproduction of what I see in modern animation, giving it as many positive attributes as I could think of. I just changed the unnatural reflections to proper matte color gradients like on metal. Gundams should not be glossy like they appear int he 80s. It's just what I see in most animation today, and I tried to make the background be more integrated with the foreground. I'm not arguing that it's any worse. Old anime's tending to have acrylic background paintings that looked completely different from the foreground, and when you actually had part of that background animate, all the detail would be lost from it completely and it'd turn into a of super-saturated cel of one bright color.

I'm saying, I don't like how new anime looks, not that it's bad. That's all. It really bugs me and drives me nuts, but I still watch new anime.

Edited October 24, 2005 by ComicKaze

[Radd]

Unnaturally smooth gradients in the digital sense result from technology not being able to properly reproduce a proper color depth for the gradient. This is a completely different thing. If you switch your desktop from 32-bit color to 16 color with a gradient background, you'll see the same banding. Nonetheless, this is still unifrom coloring. I'm talking about when older animation styles tending to have very differnt colors run right up against each other instead of having a smooth transition in the shading.

Ok, woah there, stop the presses!

You're talking about two different shades right up against each other. That's not a gradient. That banding in 16 bit colour? That's not a smooth gradient.

This is more or less what I'm talking about when I say an unnaturally smooth gradient:

It's banding a little due to JPEG compression, but you get the idea.

I meant quality in the sense of artistic quality (which we all know is a matter strictly of opinion), not technical quality.

Ah, I'm talking of mainly of technical quality, the actual visible characteristics of the linework, colours, and animation quality. However, I don't put much stock in the idea that traditionally painted animation has any more artistic merit than digitally coloured animation, so long as the effort is put forth to make it look good. If you saw a piece of animation and believed it to be hand painted, but later learned it was done digitially, would that weaken the piece's artistic quality?

I'm talking about artistic style and that's simply a frame that shows off the kind of coloring and shading that I prefer. Notice how I'm talking about how much ZZ's animation is attrocious in the actual post?

I also prefere the stylistic metal shading, I employ it regularly in digital work. However, the second piece I do not believe accurately represents the style and quality of your average digitally coloured animation.

I love super-saturated colors.

Again, I believe there's a miscommunication somewhere. I find that digital art often employs more highly saturated colours than traditional media. You seem to feel that traditionally painted artwork has more saturated colour.

As for my version of a modern ZZ, I spent a lot of time on it and I didn't do anything in my mind that was negative or overtly biased. I tried my best to make it look good and a reproduction of what I see in modern animation, giving it as many positive attributes as I could think of. I just changed the unnatural reflections to proper matte color gradients like on metal. Gundams should not be glossy like they appear int he 80s. It's just what I see in most animation today, and I tried to make the background be more integrated with the foreground. I'm not arguing that it's any worse. Old anime's tending to have acrylic background paintings that looked completely different from the foreground, and when you actually had part of that background animate, all the detail would be lost from it completely and it'd turn into a of super-saturated cel of one bright color.

There's your problem, really. You seem to have some preconceptions of modern digital work that just aren't true of all modern anime, or at all.

Backgrounds are still done in a more painted style, with a seperate colour pallette from the foregrounds. Check out this screenshot from GitS:SAC

And this, from Macross Zero:

Also, the style of colouring, such as the stylistic, glossy metal of Gundam Zeta, is a stylistic choice, completely independant of the media being used. You sytill find it in modern shows such as Gao Gai Gar Final, or Gundam Seed.

[MilSpex]

I completely agree with the OP. `80s anime has a certain quality to it.

I mean it was the decade that anime FANS of the `60s and `70s started making stuff for their otaku friends and everything was done with loving detail. More like art than business.

It`s not just nostalgia.

I grew up watching Robotech etc but I didn`t ever see the original Gundam until a few years ago.

I loved it and it had the same special feeling as other shows I had seen, Orguss etc.

[bandit29]

My interest in anime is almost dead. Old, new, whatever. I find it hard to watch any of it now. There aren't many new shows catching my interest. Well I shouldn't say any, Basilisk looks kinda cool. And the old stuff I've seen so many times I'm sick of watching it. I'll be 33 soon so maybe I'm just gettin' old. But on the flipside my gaming has been way up lately.

Funny how ya change in a year.

[lele]

Interesting how the history repeat itself. Now 2023 and the anime much worse.

I'm from the future; I agree that 2005 anime wasn't the best, and the genre of that era mostly are science fiction which I'm not interested in. The animation was a bit weird comparing to 2004.

However, in 2008 the animation became much better.

From 2016 until now, the art style became more and more bad, for at least me who watched anime from all eras.

you will be disappointed of the anime style now in 2023. The art style is emotionless and so bright, the character moves like a paper, there is no depth or shades or even shadow, There is no meaning behind the anime, only light romance, fights, comedy or fanservice. I hate to say it but the art style looks like cartoon to be honest. Not all new anime like that but most of them are alike.

I hope the future will be better, 

as for the story, I can watch various stories as long as they are not genre I don't like. depends on how the art style is. even if the story is so good but the art is 3d, there is no way I watch it, reading the manga will be better.

I really like old anime style I hope they bring it back

Even after me saying all that, I will be continue watching anime. just hoping they change the way it is now.

[TangledThorns]

It's a necro thread but I'll play along. I agree newer anime isn't exciting like it was. I miss mecha anime of the 1980s and 1990s as it seems its only GUNDAM or Gundam these days.

[Swann]

I don't like today's Anime myself either. That's not Macross related.

[hachi]

17 years later?? I feel really old now. Anyway, I think there's still good anime being made just not as much as in the past. I also have learned to temper expectations and just enjoy whatever I can. The mecha genre though has really declined.

[Big s]

Yeah, the new stuff like SpyxFamily is pretty lame. Bland art, bland story, even though the premise sounded good it’s just the usual let down. There’s very few titles I even care about anymore.
But at least the animation on this side of the ocean has been getting better. Invincible is my favorite out of the bunch

[Lolicon]

The golden age of anime ended when the bubble burst in Japan. 

I don't entirely agree with Oshii but I understand where he's coming from. 

https://fandomwire.com/mamoru-oshii-thinks-neon-genesis-evangelion-will-be-forgotten-in-time-sees-it-as-a-commercial-anime-that-wont-survive-ia/

[TangledThorns]

Just a personal observation. I've had Crunchyroll for close to a year and only watched two series in that time. Chainsaw Man and Attack on Titan (for the third time). So yeah, won't renew my annual subscription by end of year.

Edited October 31, 2023 by TangledThorns

[Big s]

6 hours ago, Lolicon said:

The golden age of anime ended when the bubble burst in Japan. 

I don't entirely agree with Oshii but I understand where he's coming from. 

https://fandomwire.com/mamoru-oshii-thinks-neon-genesis-evangelion-will-be-forgotten-in-time-sees-it-as-a-commercial-anime-that-wont-survive-ia/

Evangelion has a huge fandom spreading a good while with a lot of merch. I think it will be a long til it’s forgotten

[Swann]

I hate and still do. I dislike tenchi muyo

[Big s]

8 minutes ago, Swann said:

I hate and still do. I dislike tenchi muyo

I think the Tenchi Universe was the last one I really liked, but that’s a bit of a mess to keep up with