I hate new anime

[azrael]

I seriously think you're just getting old and you've seen tons of anime by now. Its no longer some neat thing that nobody else does, its no longer mysterious to most people including yourself. Its become mainstream.

328029[/snapback]

I'm inclined to agree. I think he has outgrown anime for the time being.

So it doesn't give you that sense feel as it did a few years ago. Well, it happens. Find a new love/hobby/etc. and take a break from anime.

[JsARCLIGHT]

If I could throw my shoddy hat in the ring on this I don't think it's that "new anime" is "bad" as much as it may be you have "seen too much anime" as Max said. That's what happened to me. I started watching "anime" (if you call the bastardized shows on American TV in the '80s "anime") in the '80s and liked what I saw. About a decade later in college my friends and I where hardcore anime fans, this was about 1994 when anime was starting to creep into the US through the back alleys. It was underground and only "hardcore" fans knew where to get the anime... back then everything was kickass no matter what it was becaue as far as American cartoons where concerned... they sucked. You had Warner Brothers drivel or Disney drivel. The problem came in that while anime was neat and all watching tons and tons of it burns you out on anime (or anything for that matter)... I got to the point I am at today where I will no longer watch anime unless there is nothing else on.

My point being: back in the "golden days" of anime there was good anime and bad anime just like today... the difference is YOU. You have matured in your tastes through watching so much anime... the more you watch the more your tastes sharpen into a fine point, you learn what you like and what you don't like. Soon, if you are jaded enough, you become like me and you hate everything... but I don't hate it because it is "bad", I hate it because I'm tired of anime. I need a really good story or just a really large gap of time to waste to get me watching a "new" anime show... or any of the "old" shows.

And as others have said you can lump on that fire the seeming explosion of anime in the US melding with the usual US stereotype of "cartoons are for kids" and you get a market in America that caters to crappy "kiddie" anime more than it does hardcore basement dwelling fanboys.

Edited September 14, 2005 by JsARCLIGHT

[Guppy]

In regards to your comment on post 1999 'beautiful' anime, also check out the Korean made anime Wonderful Days (aka Sky Blue) - jaw dropping animation. I've watched the motorcycle scene at the start half a dozen times now.

[Agent ONE]

Think of it this way... your parents don't like your type of music and you won't like your kids...

328023[/snapback]

I won't like my kids!??? Thats horrible! Maybe I shouldn't have any...

Well, the AWESOMENESS must live on, I guess no kids for A1 just isn't realistic.

[Radd]

I see threads like this and I always wind up stating the same thing. 90% of everything is crap, including anime. It's easy to look back over the past several decades and only remember the good things, then look at what came out in the past couple of years and then wind up comparing three decades' worth of classics to whatever happens to be coming down the pipe this season.

There are still classics coming out, anime that will be revered and talked about for years to come, but the present will never stack up to the past because the past continues to grow while the present is always just the present.

Grok?

[Panon]

Welcome to growing up. In 15 years anime fans will be decrying the state of anime and wishing it was more like it was in the 'good old days' too.

Anime is saturated now, so unlike the past where you only experience mostly the top tier of anime was available now second, third and fourth rate anime is all being pushed at us, either through company releases or fansubs.

You can look at the 70s/80s and think they were just so much better than now because they had things like Mazinger, Getter Robo, Grendizer, Ideon, Gundam, Macross Gunbuster, etc..

But what about Gowapper 5 Godam, Magnerobo Ga-Keen, Uchuu Senshi Baldios, Saikyou Robo Daihoja, Ginga Senpuu Bryger, Ginga Reppuu Baxinger, Kousoku Denshin Albegas, Ginga Shippuu Sasuraiger, Psycho Armor Govarian, Tokusou Kihei Dorvack, Panzer World Galient, or Mashin Eiyuuden Watarubor?

Never heard of most of those? Guess why. That's just a handful from one genre, if you looked at everything from years back you'd end up with a huge list of completely terrible anime, just like you can now.

In years to come people are going to look at 'current anime' and they'll be remembering the Ghost in the Shell: Standalone Complex and Fullmetal Alchemist like shows, and the Erementar Gerad, Tsubasa Chronicle, Speed Grapher or whatever other forgettable crap you can think of will become just that - forgotten, just like all the dire trash that was made before 1995. Sturgeon's Law in action.

I mean, that's not to say things haven't changed. The day of cell art has died and digital animation has taken it's place (as a lover of old style anime this is tough to deal with at times). The OVA format is all but dead. Certain genres (eg, giant robots and mecha) have become stagnant, and anime on the whole is less 'experimental' because with the downturn of the anime market in more recent times things have gravitated towards formula and doing what has been successful. These are just natural progression.

Remember the battle between Max and Milia aboard the Macross, as Hikaru watches from the hospital room? Remember how you can see the Q Rau from all angles as it flies by, the perspective changing in every frame, the blast of her thrusters causing visible distortion, hundreds of chunks of building falling to the ground? Have you ever seen anything like that in anime in the past ten years?

Sure.

More than ten years ago, did you ever see something like the scene in Ghost in the Shell: Innocence when Batou and Togusa were flying to the Chinese city, the scope of the city shown, the exact detail in which the plane they were flying in was modeled down to the smallest detail such as the rotor and it's dozen individual wing flaps, the hundreds of birds flying around through the spirals of the city, each one of them unique? Ever see such haunting vision of a vast, lifeless future where technology has replaced the organic?

Sounds pretty amazing when you describe it dramatically, considering both our examples are probably a couple of minutes of animation at most.

Even better question: have you seen many things in recent times so completely awful as the Max and Milia knife duel? It goes both ways.

[danth]

Hmmm...

Okay, I admit that there were stinkers in the eighties too. But, the percentage of good anime has decreased dramatically.

But let's say for argument's sake that 90 percent of both old and new anime sucks. That still doesn't mean old anime isn't better. I think the "good" anime of today is only somewhat decent, and the "good" anime of the eighties was amazing.

My taste hasn't changed -- otherwise, I wouldn't still be watching Macross. Anime has changed. If it changed for the better, I wouldn't have a problem.

But to show that I'm the sporting type, I'll promise to watch the top 5 picks for new anime (the first few episodes, not the whole series, unless I like it). So far, people mentioned Full Metal Alchemist a lot, so I'll probably watch that. What else would you all consider "the best of the new?"

[Keith]

In no particular order

-Galaxy Railways

-Tenchi OVA 3

-Mahoromatic

-Macross Zero

-Yukikaze

All semi-recent series which I've found quite enjoyable.

[danth]

Okay, picks for best of the new:

Cowboy Bebop

Ghost in the Shell: SAC

Full Metal Alchemist

Last Exile

Escaflowne

Does sound like a good top 5?

[danth]

-Tenchi OVA 3

328179[/snapback]

Whoa, I have that. I haven't watched it yet.

[Keith]

Ah, and how could I forget Mazinkaiser. Brings back all the fun of 70's giant robot anime, with much needed metal & fanservice amplification!

[Radd]

I don't see how most of that applies or how half of it is true. I mean, I agree about the teachers and recess and accountability thing, but there's still plenty of complex story arcs and characters (GitS:SAC anyone?). There's always been both simple and complex shows. Terry Gilliam had to fight tooth and claw to get Brazil out in the 80's. When the old live action Giant Robo was brought over in like the 70's, they renamed Daisaku 'Johnny Socko'. Back in the 70's and 80's people complained about the loud, annoying soundtracks to a lot of movies (in fact, as I recall that was one of the primary critisisms used time and again against the Transformers movie). The new Captain Herlock show is only a year or two old, and it certainly had strong themes of personal responsibility, and individualism every bit as strongly as the old Matsumoto shows. The same can be said of Galaxy Railways.

I believe a lot of the flaws you cite do exist, but it seems to me that you're exaggerating them far beyond the reality of the situation. You're also doing so from a very Americanmedia-centric point of view when we're talking about Japanese animation. You're far more likely to see unflattering stereotypes of minorties in anime than out of a modern American production, especially animation.

[Radd]

I should also note that American cartoons of days long past, such as Transformers, G.I. Joe, and He-Man, were not particularly deep, and fit nicely into the category of "quick payoff entertainment".

[Sumdumgai]

Yeah I had that feeling that the new stuff is crap and the old stuff was great. But I stopped and reflected.

In the early 90s when stuff just started to be more available, there were some good titles out there and everything was so awesome because I had no frame of reference other than cartoons. Dominion and New Dominion Tank Police was so awesome because it was completely unlike any police story I had ever seen before. Ranma 1/2 took martial arts and fantasy off in a completely different direction. And so forth and so forth.

Now that I've watched a buttload of anime, I have other shows that I can refer to for determining quality. Escaflowne the movie, Cowboy Bebop the movie, Saint Seiya Hades Arc, Jin-roh, and Macross DYRL are my points of reference for high quality animation. For character design Cowboy Bebop, Golden Boy, Escaflowne the movie, Macross DYRL, Orguss 02, and Record of Lodoss War OVA. For music, most anime with music by Yoko Kanno and Hajime Mizoguchi (Escaflowne, Macross Plus, and Jon-roh), and Kenji Kawai (Patlabor the movie).

I don't watch everything that comes out, so I can't make a judgement on if the quality of anime is really going down the crapper or not. But then again I didn't watch everything that was coming out in the 80s either.

[Prime]

I agree you have to filter a lot of crap to get to decent stuff. There are a couple series I really enjoy, but most I take a pass on. I also remember Robotech as a kid and being amazed at the quality of animation, but now when I go back I realize that some of it just looks terrible.

Oh well. I just keep my eyes and ears open for new stuff I might like. Every once in a blue moon something good comes along...

[NERV]

before i boguht macross i had memory of only the first 2 or 3 episodes, in my mind i remebered the animation being great really detailed, then wheni saw it again probly 10 years later i actually wondered for a moment if i had been remembering a different show, the majority of the animation on macross was pretty bad, especially on the valks, all pudgy and proportions constantly changing around. personally, i like the animation from the late 80's to late 90's it was still drawn cells, but the framerates, details, porportions, and continuity of the animation had all improved, id ont like much fo the current CG animation because i think it looks sterile, i wouldnt say bland because the detail is there and the animation is smoother but somehowit just lacks a human touch and isnt as appealing. as for current shows that are good i would highly reccomend elfen lied to anyone who considers themselves to be well adjusted, it has graphic violence and potentially disturbing content but the actual story is fantastic, it is immediately in my top 5 favorites of all time

[danth]

. as for current shows that are good i would highly reccomend elfen lied

328251[/snapback]

A lot of people have been saying that. I should check that one out too.

[Black Valkyrie]

Well at least the anime I like after 95 are :

1) Gundam-X.

2) Kenshin [series, OVA].

3) Berserk.

4) Shin Getter Robo.

5) Turn A Gundam.

6) DNA.

Just waiting for how Neo Gaiking turns out. Over all I like drama anime first , then robot anime. Seen a lot of drama anime from the 70`s and 80`s but can`t remember the titles.

[Nightbat]

Some Post-"Golden Age" series I enjoye(d)

tsukihime

Scrapped princess

mahoromatic

Elfen lied

Chrno Crusade (recommended)

Rozen Maiden

bakuretsu tenshi

Mai Hime

Bleach (fansub - unlicenced)

Tsukuyomi(fansub unlicenced)

nadesico

and dozens more that were at least mildly entertaining

I hunt for Manga/Anime artwork, if I find out there's an anime with it

I try to find out about the story, if both appeal, I check for fansubs,

if that appeals, I buy it

(Old classics, like Project A-ko, BGC, Dominion Tank Police and Macross I bought in a heartbeat)

[Majestic]

I think the same rule applies to just about any genre of entertainment. Most likely, only about 5 percent (or less) of any genre is going to be good quality. The rest will be terrible and only contribute to poor image stereotype problems.

i.e. comics, science fiction, action movies, etc.

That said, I agree with most in this thread, that the massive majority of anime is crap. Whether its a lost in translation thing or just general Japanese wierdness, there's a great deal that I just don't "get", and its turned me off to anime in general. It takes a lot to get me to watch anything nowadays. Only after frequent stellar reviews and good word of mouth will I even consider wasting my time.

[Kin]

cheap computercrap... is anything still being done by hand?

[Radd]

The drawings are still hand drawn, though either they take the paper drawings and transfer that to the computer, or work directly on drawing tablets connected to computers. I can live with that. There are ways to make digital work look more natural, if you really wanted to, the problem is most people don't want to.

I can also handle some CG effects and whatnot. Sometimes they're excellent. I just don't think they should be seen as a replacement for some of the great old effects. Many old effects that we don't see anymore, like the explosions and energon cubes from Transformers, could probably be imitated on computers, but no one does it.

[Hubert]

I also prefer old anime and I dont think it s only nostalgia. We can be objective and say that the stories and the techniques used are different and they have their own charm. It's not like video games where all get better with time.

- Many stories are gay, the consensus rules, no position. How can a winner identify to a guy who cry for nothing, who is not able to decide something...

- I mean there are more and more anime that completly made by computer. it's OK when the production put money on it and it s fine. For me , I ve seen a real change in anime after 97, the colors of anime changed, mostly for background. There is something "made by hand", which is lost.

It would be fair to compare movie with movie, and tv with tv. I prefer my old nausicaa and laputa than the new ghibli with recycled theme. Same for tv, the animation was bad but the drawing were better in many cases. Even if I remember well the 80s, it's because of quantity, not quality. I liked many cartoons but I remember few that were great.

Anyways, I agree that 95% of anime sucks. It's made for money, to sell toys. Now they sell video games, card, everything ...

It's even crazy that people can think you like everything when you only like one thing. It seems that there are some consensus for cowboy bebop and some others that it was good. But for raxephon, escaflowne, i did not like. I also agree for macross+, without the music and the valks there is not a lot...

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I think it is the look of stuff.

I hate it when anime is too bright or uses fake garish colors to attract. Look at the old version of bubblegum crisis to the new one where its more bright and does not have that dark feel to it that you no longer get anymore.

Look at the ships in gundam seed which look too colorful and fake like they are toys for kids or the art style which no longer has art that goes for realistic proportions.

A little similar to this topic is in the OT star wars movies, when they used models, things like robots and ships had a battle-worn, dusty grimy feel to them with lots of details. (maybe due to WWII) Now they are clean and sleek and modern and pollution-free which makes everything look like somebody washes and shines the machines too well, making the mistake of creating an environment that looks too "perfect". (hollywood always does that: even in terminator 3 I thought the robots were too clean and tidy)

I get paranoid when I see bright color because it to me it signals that maybe something has been sanitised for a wide audience. Check out the old ninja turtles cartoon to the newer more serious one. In the serious looking turtles you can actually believe that there are mutants too hideous to be seen by humans roaming the sewers and forced to use thier stealth to stay in hiding for the most part. But in the more cartoony(less comic-book-tone-ish) 80s version they use flatter color.

I think one of the reason I watch anime or any animated show is due to the dynamic expression you can get with characters that are not completely 3d or have to play by the rules of reality. The reason the matrix tries to put so much energy in the action is it is trying to recreate that same feeling that you can't get in live action and to me this is the main reason why I like to watch anime, (escapes from the limits of reality but tries to be serious enough with its explanation for things in its worlds) not necessarily for the story since I can just as easily read a good novel or comic. But seeing them in motion is half the fun and where anime comes in.

I think one of the reasons I liked the 80s was because that was when lots of sci-fiction movies had a dark textured look to them: Blade Runner, terminator, escape from new york, aliens, and were not afriad to be scary.

or were humorously violent: robocop (this at least shows the crime levels rising as the havenots struggle to make ends meet, and the police struggle to fight the increasingly high level of crime, but it also shows the corruption at the higher level thorugh OCP - you know the dark side of humans - you got this feeling with classic BGC)

or had a sense of doom in them: mad max (notice the crumbling of law and order and gradualy move into chaos? sort of like a cowboy movie)

But these days things are brightly lit, people use clean pollution-free machines (AI, Minority Report) and the dark underworld is kind of hidden from view. The vision is no longer apocylyptic but happy and full of optimism. There is no suffering in the future. Industry is not environmentally destructive and making people sick, the hardware is not rugged and worn and heavy, and there are no warnings for the humans anymore of where we are heading. We are in fact encouraged to accept the future, not fear it like in the good old days when computers (HAL9000) would turn against its creators and technology would more than likely be abused and used against people. (eg the terminators in "terminator" or take the characters in the Final Fantasy 7 game, where magic and spiritual things are pretty much gone and extinct from common knowledge or used for greedy abusive purposes. The future is not shown to be cold and polluted like that anymore, with characters like cloud who you wouldn't want to meet if they were real people, but instead happy.)

I fear anything that is just too flashy and happy and fake. I like stuff that goes for realism (like later volumes of appleseed manga) but is based upon stories where the actions of character is suitable for an animated medium. (where you see a lot of crazy poo you know wouldn't be done or would look silly in real life: the speed and grace of the macross mecha dogfights, the super powers of the character in akira, the demonic supernatural ability of the villains in ninja scroll and the characters agility and energy in BGC etc Things felt fluid and flowed like liquid)

Also did anyone get the feeling that the animated Clone Wars cartoon dogfights and action was more visually exciting than what you saw in the actual star wars movies? They just had a sense of speed in them. Thats why I like animated shows because it gives you enough believability to convince you it could be real, but without going overboard into fantasy. It's one of the reasons I don't like too much magic in things (see the ending in Appleseed CG where Duenan's mum saves the day , or anything in macross 7) and aplaud its restraint (LOTR movies) wherever possible because when things get flashy and unrealistic or can't be explained (macross Zero ending) that leaves me feeling uneasy. (I even thought the ending to char's counterattack where the "will of the people" stopped the asteroid from destroying earth was a bit too full on)

I think to me the 80s and some of the 90s will be my golden age of anime whether its due to nostagia or just the industry in general. Maybe even late 70s stuff. I liked Yamato, I also liked some stuff before this like Astroboy, but there is something about 80s manga and anime or just the style that is hard to put a finger on. (maybe there was emphasis on things having to look and move "realistic" or have limits: ie patlabor, gundam etc or where there were heavy consequences for battling in populated areas or abusing the power of the technology and having characters die)

Edited September 15, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[NERV]

your talking about stuff having bright colors and unrealistic proportions, gundam and macross, max, millia, skull one, and the rx-78 are all just as brightly colored as the mecha of today if not more so, yukikaze, M+ more 'realistic' coloring and the valks and gundams of the 80's didnt have a tough polluting worn feel, they were brightly colored, cleanly nuclear powered and i doubt there are any 2 frames where a mecha from back then would have the same proportions.

[NERV]

im not saying that current anime is better, just saying that when it comes to mecha, current animation is naturally better

[bandit29]

I don't buy into the older is better BS and I've been watching anime since the early 80's. There's alot of old shows that are forgettable garbage. Just like today.

some shows/movies to check out:

Last Exile

Berserk

Requiem from the Darkness

Ghost in the Shell Stand Alone Complex

Ghost in the Shell the Movie

Princess Mononoke

Record of Lodoss War OVA

Gungrave

Spirited Away

Escaflowne the TV series. Movie kinda blows

Samurai Champloo

Rahxephon

Yukikaze

Blue Submarine No 6

Vampire Hunter D and Vampire Hunter D Bloodlust

Armored Trooper VOTOMS

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Actually macross mecha look pretty realistic even for today. Watch DYRL.

Gundam is realistic in the sense that death for anyone was just around the corner since it is set during war and the machines could break down or fail and the skill of the pilot is more important than how superior the technology was or how indestructible a single machine could be. (there is an emphasis on training hard to be good at something rather than having the character play the role of gung ho hero who saves the world from evil not ever breaking a sweat or in danger of being killed)

The characters respond to the action realistically and regret having to use thier power to kill. This is the "responsibility" theme that I think was a part of what made it deep. (like what made terminator 2 emotionally involving where you can't just kill people or glorify death, things are not that simple. there was violence and killing but it was to be avoided if necessary)

You could have absolutely no interest in the toys or anything like that and still like the story to watch it and feel it was a real-enough world for a fictional universe.

And the powered suits in BGC and the robots the police use are still pretty limited in what they can do. To me around the 80s was when they started to add more realism. They do it now too, but imo the 80s started to have a more gritty view of the future and things were weighed down by realistic limitations.

I don't watch all that much anime now so maybe my view is narrowed down to what I've seen (recently saw gundam Seed, and aquarion and G gundam hehe) but I get the feeling it is made flashy for an audience to buy toys and stuff. (not that his is bad or anything)

When I looked at the ships in Gundam Seed I felt the same way about this that I got from seeing the fake looking CG in the newer Star Wars movies. Something is just missing. Maybe like with movies of today I just like the old school way of how things were made. (I was watching a commentary of ninja scroll on dvd where they explained how in the old days each individual bee had to be hand animated but today with computers you can cheat that effect to bring costs down. Kind of parrallels the death of good hand drawn art in 2d games these days. Most 2d-style games these days will use a sort of "2.5 d" view of the action rather relying completely on hand drawn and hand animated sprites. Probably because it would be cheaper this way, not necessarily because it looks any better.)

If something looks overly flashy (garish paint scheme with too much primary colours and no shadow), flat (no colour depth), fake (cg objects that stick out too much with the rest of the environment) or just out of place (there are many examples of where cg sticks out like a sore thumb where hand animated stuff would be superior but more expensive - Akira is not one of these since it is very subtle and shows restraint to not make it noticeable)... then I'm usually against it. You are probably right and there is not much difference from back then to today but in my experience (can't speak for all people) things have changed enough to be noticeable.

Edited September 15, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Hubert]

just watch the evolution of the opening anime theme, mostly for robot.

I have on cd the opening of the 70s , 80s , 90s robot anime and you can really the evolution. When you see the sunrise production at the beginning of the 90s..., the heros are all so young.

when someone say the rx78 is all flashy, i disagree, the red/blue/white were not flashy, it s the kind of red that changes. the computer colors attack the eyes.

There is no old vs new anime. It's like when you like movie with cowboys, you re stuck with old movies. There are some anime styles that belong to some years.

for robot anime : 77-85 very good, 85-90 good, 90-95 bad, 95-97 good, 97-2002 bad, now it gets back good. there re some cycle.

[armentage]

Something to consider is that the IN-BETWEEN frames today are far-far-far better than they ever were. Macross had fantastic designs, and many closeup shots were drawn beautifully, but the average frame of animation was pretty terrible. Sloppy and quickly drawn, no detail, etc etc. Macross7 is pretty horrible in this regard too.

Most 80's Mecha OAV were definately drawn better, with more time devoted to the inbetweens. EVA was animated very well too, but there were so few actual Mecha scenes...

The TV stuff today is pretty awesome though... shows like Aquarion are amazing. SO much detail on the inbetweens!

I wonder, is it computer animation or is it just a bigger budget?

[Radd]

As far as the Gundam's colours, I think you guys are talking about different things. The poster saying that the RX-78's colours were flashy meant exactly that. It's a giant robot painted bright white, yellow, and red with dark blue. That's not exactly urban camo.

Hubert means the difference in hand painted colours as compared to digitally coloured 2D animation.

The problem with digitally coloured 2D animation is not the medium, it's the people in charge of the colours. Pros and amateurs alike make this mistake, they think just because the digital pallette gives them access to all these bright and saturated colours that means they should go straight to those. However, it looks gaudy and cheap, especially when paired up with thick, dark linework.

The sad part is, it's easy to use more natural, muted tones. The problem is, most people don't want that. They actually want those painfully oversaturated colours.

Another problem with digital work, that can be avoided with a little effort, is when you got those digitally perfect images, with dark linework and overly bright colours, you become that much more aware of the linework, and the animation itself, especially the flaws or lack of motion in low-budget scenes. Every individual aspect of the imagery is then fighting for your attention rather than working together. In addition to muting the colours and linework, this can be helped by simply using either textures or effects quickly tossed over the image to kinda help everything blend better.

Again, the problem is that most people do not see this as a problem in the first place.

[Radd]

Quick side note. AnimEigo actually encountered this very same problem when remastering the original SDF Macross footage. They're one of the only companies I can think of that realized it was a problem, and took the extra pains to fix it.

[Radd]

Something to consider is that the IN-BETWEEN frames today are far-far-far better than they ever were.  Macross had fantastic designs, and many closeup shots were drawn beautifully, but the average frame of animation was pretty terrible.  Sloppy and quickly drawn, no detail, etc etc.  Macross7 is pretty horrible in this regard too. 

Most 80's Mecha OAV were definately drawn better, with more time devoted to the inbetweens.  EVA was animated very well too, but there were so few actual Mecha scenes...

The TV stuff today is pretty awesome though... shows like Aquarion are amazing. SO much detail on the inbetweens! 

I wonder, is it computer animation or is it just a bigger budget?

328623[/snapback]

Woah there, as an animator I have to disagree. Some of today's shows have excellent and fluid animation, but much of today's animation has pretty craptastic animation. The same goes for 10 and 20 years ago.

However, I don't think you're talking about inbetweens or how fluid the animation is, you're talking about the individual frames of animation being more well drawn, but forgetting that often comes at a price.

Yes, Evangelion was very well drawn, but if you watch the series keeping the actual animation first and foremost in your mind, most of Evangelion is well drawn still frames, with a few minutes of well animated action sucking up the entire animation budget.

Macross 7 on the other hand, has much more fluid animation overall, but the individual frames aren't as pretty.

The trick is to find a balance. Really simplistic linework can look much, much more impressive than even the best still shot frames, if it's well animated.

Then you have stuff like Aquarion. I haven't seen much of the show, but in the first couple episodes I did not notice the 2D animation being anything out of the ordinary. The mecha battles were all CG, though. With CG, you can up the number of inbetweens with no extra work to be down, it just takes longer to render. So you can, if you want, get really fluid animation.

However, you can have very fluid animation that is still poorly animated. Animators have to keep things like the weight of the subject, and all kinds of secondary motions in mind. Such as when a person lands from a high drop, they don't simply stop. Their feet hit the ground and stop first, the rest of their body continuing down as their legs absorb the shock. then they rise up a bit, even before they're trying to stand. You can have absolutely fluid CG animation with plenty of inbetween frames, yet completely missing all these vital details. It happens a lot. Also, oftentimes you'll have CG animation that looks clumsy, as if the CG characters or robots were puppets on strings, the motion never looking quite right.

You can get around this, but it often takes as many animators as it would to do it in 2D, and since most people seem to use CG as a cost cutting tool, they're not willing to do that when most people will happily ignore the flaws and allow themselves to be wowed by the CG itself.

[danth]

In no particular order

-Galaxy Railways

-Tenchi OVA 3

-Mahoromatic

-Macross Zero

-Yukikaze

All semi-recent series which I've found quite enjoyable.

328179[/snapback]

Were you talking about the new "Here Comes the Bride" DVD? I just watched that and it was a horrible piece of trash. Hideous animation and a boring and pointless story. As a die-hard Tenchi fan, I wish I never saw it.

[Nightbat]

You can have absolutely fluid CG animation with plenty of inbetween frames, yet completely missing all these vital details. It happens a lot. Also, oftentimes you'll have CG animation that looks clumsy, as if the CG characters or robots were puppets on strings, the motion never looking quite right.

You can get around this, but it often takes as many animators as it would to do it in 2D, and since most people seem to use CG as a cost cutting tool, they're not willing to do that when most people will happily ignore the flaws and allow themselves to be wowed by the CG itself.

328632[/snapback]

The problem mostly with CG today is that it's too fluid

especially if you compare it to it's background (Mac Zero)

it simply doesn't blend in

in a 100% CG animation (FF Spirits Within, Reboot -come to mind) it's not an issue

but looking at mixed celshaded/CG images it's just horrible